How difficult does it have to be to be 'sieged'?

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GDavis

Trad climber

Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:34pm PT

This is just an open ended question, I guess, but something that popped into my mind while reading about some of the attempts at climbs that are long and difficult.

First off, I will not be freeing el cap any time soon. That said, I give enormous props to anyone that can manage to pull off that insane feat! This is by no means meant to take away from their accomplishments.

So, here's the question. I won't free the Salathe, but I might be able to free Astroman, in the sense that I might be able to work on the pitches and individual moves where its not an 'impossibility' (just 2 grades harder than anything i've done!). Now, if this route was The Zodiac or The Salathe, I could rap in from the top, work the pitches, use chalk to mark gear placements, and all the bag of tricks to up the odds of success.

But if I was climbing Astroman, could I? Astroman is as freeable to me, now, as maybe the Salathe is to a 5.12 climber. These tactics seem to make more sense for a first ascent, where the possibility of moves being done is still a question, but what about 'established' HARD routes, like West Face of the tower, El Nino, Freerider?

Does the route have to be a grade VI to warrant that work? Or is it 12c, minimum? fact of the matter is, I would be chastised by the community for rapping in and working key pitches on the column. I mean, c'mon, the things been free soloed! But so has the northwest face of half dome and Moonlight buttress.

Its never really occurred to me that working a route like that would bring any answers to why I was there climbing it, so you won't be seeing me sussing gear on the enduro corner. Maybe I'm just curious, I guess, about where this line is?

On the way up the leaning tower I was a day behind a party that had freed it. It was someone I didn't recognize, there was no one there to photograph the ascent or tell the story in a magazine, yet I had seen him over the course of the previous days on fixed ropes working the lower slab pitches and the roof. Why did he feel he needed this? Would that time be better spent on other routes of similar quality, training for the climb? What did he have to gain by stacking so many odds in his favor? Was there some sort of clock he was racing?

In the end, its all just circles in the sand and splitting hairs. But this game (climbing, that is) is fun and interests me, not just the routes but the thoughts and debates. The ability to self govern and the honor systems we have is unrivaled, and sometimes these small discussions are just that... small discussions. Still, what would happen if I rapped into Astroman?

:D thoughts?

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Jun 30, 2009 - 01:40pm PT

length and difficulty are irrelevant

cluster frigging a popular route will get you tossed, unless you are doing everything in your power to make it easy for those going up to do their thing too.

but bottom line, it would seem that there is lots of wiggle room to follow one's own rules and spray so long as one is truthful about what one has done. That is the real rule of climbing.

If someone has "done" something and it isn't in the best possible style then you have to qualify your "dones" - NTTIATWWT

but if one just hangs out and clogs up the Kor with fixed lines and hang dogging for hours on end and it interferes with those going up, then maybe that's not such a good idea.

thoughts?

GDavis

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:46pm PT

Sure, of course you shouldn't cluster a route. What about the guys that were on the tower a few days prior to my trip? They had to climb past fixed ropes and stashed camps. And what about the guys climbing the salathe? Imagine your first el cap route, exploring the headwall that robbins and chouinard pioneered, and there's chalk and duct tape marking what gear to use, fixed ropes hanging, and your tiny ledge is cramped with enough bivy gear and stashed water to make for an awesome one buttcheek bivy?

I guess my point is that there are probably more people at any given time on the salathe and the leaning tower, so to say that I would be clustering parties on Astroman or the Rostrum doesn't add up I think. Hey, Rostrum, there's a good one! Can I seige that if I pull my ropes up in between goes ;D hehe.

"but bottom line, it would seem that there is lots of wiggle room to follow one's own rules and spray so long as one is truthful about what one has done. That is the real rule of climbing. "

This is about as accurate as you could have made a statement! Well done. However, even if I reported what I had done, it would for sure be 'inappropriate behavior' on this route.

nutjob

climber

Berkeley, CA

Jun 30, 2009 - 01:57pm PT

If "sieged" refers to sleeping on, before, or after the climb, then I'm a firm believer in seiging:
EB El Cap
Royal Arches
Royal Arches + Crest Jewel
Epinephrine
Hawkman's Escape
Sun Ribbon Arete (well, slept at basecamp)

And I hope to add many more to the resume. Hopefully most in the future will be on purpose!

Edit: In no case did my behavior on these debacles impede the forward progress of other parties. Only time I saw another party was when I tent-camped below the pendulum on Royal Arches, and that was the morning after.

GDavis

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:58pm PT

haha, right on! Nope, thats not seiging - thats quite the opposite, actually! Thats adventure dear sir.

Sieging is, well, I don't think we need another definition.

Greg Barnes

climber

Jun 30, 2009 - 01:59pm PT

Simple - it has to be hard enough that you might get sponsored if you send...

GDavis

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 02:00pm PT

Greg

....

woah. I think that actually makes sense!

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Jun 30, 2009 - 02:08pm PT

sorry, not you personally, you in the universal you sense.

sounds like you know which way you want to go with the 'inappropriate' quote language. Which somewhat supports the idea that individual users make their own rules, right?

If the post is an appeal to take a different approach than those that fix and camp and lay seige to a free climb, then poor Pete and Kate better hope that we don't start judging the freight movements of aid climbers.

GDavis

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 02:14pm PT

Gotcha, that makes sense. While although you and I might give a guy a pass doing it, I can guaruntee you the large majority would still likely get all tiffy!

Pete will always have a pass, I mean c'mon, nothing wrong with moving slow, right??

scuffy b

climber

Sinatra to Singapore

Jun 30, 2009 - 02:20pm PT

I seiged Sundance at Suicide in 1975.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jun 30, 2009 - 02:39pm PT

Go ahead and siege/work A-man if you want. But it would probably be more time-effective to work pitches at the Cookie to build your skills.

Sieging/working is more helpful in the higher grades, when the cruxes involve more face climbing. By working, you can figure out where the good holds are (for the Hubers, extend this to adding big tick marks by the good holds/jams/pro) and find sequences of moves that are good. Sieging will not help you on the Enduro Corner of A-man - you need fitness and good technique for that.

pedge

Trad climber

Jun 30, 2009 - 02:53pm PT

I don't think I am the only person who enjoys working routes that are over my on-sight ability and then eventually sending them. Sometimes its fun and it doesn't hurt anyone or anything if you are not getting in the way of other people who want to do the route. Astroman seems like a bad choice for this type of thing given how many people want to try it. Sure its a low adventure proposition, but its your own choice and one you make for your own reasons.

Who is in this group of climbers who you think would think poorly of you because of a choice that you made that didn't hurt anyone else, endanger access or damage resources, and why would you care about what those types of people thought anyway?

Just don't go out with someone who is considering doing a long route with you and climb your long time projects without explaining the realities of your on-sight abilities.

martygarrison

Trad climber

The Great North these days......

Jun 30, 2009 - 02:59pm PT

I never sieged Astroman, but after I did it a few times the first pitches (through the enduro) became a really fun crag. If you want, go up and work the boulder and the enduro pitches and see how you do. Just don't clog up the thing for folks wanting to send the whole route.

crøtch

climber

Jun 30, 2009 - 03:08pm PT

Reminds me of the guys who left fixed lines through the crux of the Beckey Chouinard on S. Howser last summer.

scuffy b

climber

Sinatra to Singapore

Jun 30, 2009 - 03:20pm PT

I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

I seiged Sundance in the older sense, that is, we didn't make it
all the way in a push, returned to the ground, ascended fixed
rope to finish the climb the next day.

No working the route, just a 2-day ascent of a 3-pitch 5.10 climb.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Jun 30, 2009 - 03:40pm PT

Sundance is worth taking your time on though.

:)

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jun 30, 2009 - 06:43pm PT

When you go to the Cookie to work your way up to Astroman, if you pick the right time of year, it might be pre-sieged for you. ;-)

Last weekend there were giant X's on every single hand hold on the 5.8, formerly 5.7, traverse on Sellaginella. No fixed lines so far as I know.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jun 30, 2009 - 06:58pm PT

you could spend years at the cookie and never work up to jumping on astroman.

you wanna climb astroman? go do it. i dont care if you hang on a couple pieces on the enduro pitch and yard some others somewhere else: 10c A0.

i have a hard time imagining "sieging" as an issue in the valley, when the premiere route on the premiere cliff is almost universally aided over a period of days.

if folks were really worried about style, the nose would be the emptiest route in california.