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GDavis
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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This is just an open ended question, I guess, but something that popped into my mind while reading about some of the attempts at climbs that are long and difficult.
First off, I will not be freeing el cap any time soon. That said, I give enormous props to anyone that can manage to pull off that insane feat! This is by no means meant to take away from their accomplishments.
So, here's the question. I won't free the Salathe, but I might be able to free Astroman, in the sense that I might be able to work on the pitches and individual moves where its not an 'impossibility' (just 2 grades harder than anything i've done!). Now, if this route was The Zodiac or The Salathe, I could rap in from the top, work the pitches, use chalk to mark gear placements, and all the bag of tricks to up the odds of success.
But if I was climbing Astroman, could I? Astroman is as freeable to me, now, as maybe the Salathe is to a 5.12 climber. These tactics seem to make more sense for a first ascent, where the possibility of moves being done is still a question, but what about 'established' HARD routes, like West Face of the tower, El Nino, Freerider?
Does the route have to be a grade VI to warrant that work? Or is it 12c, minimum? fact of the matter is, I would be chastised by the community for rapping in and working key pitches on the column. I mean, c'mon, the things been free soloed! But so has the northwest face of half dome and Moonlight buttress.
Its never really occurred to me that working a route like that would bring any answers to why I was there climbing it, so you won't be seeing me sussing gear on the enduro corner. Maybe I'm just curious, I guess, about where this line is?
On the way up the leaning tower I was a day behind a party that had freed it. It was someone I didn't recognize, there was no one there to photograph the ascent or tell the story in a magazine, yet I had seen him over the course of the previous days on fixed ropes working the lower slab pitches and the roof. Why did he feel he needed this? Would that time be better spent on other routes of similar quality, training for the climb? What did he have to gain by stacking so many odds in his favor? Was there some sort of clock he was racing?
In the end, its all just circles in the sand and splitting hairs. But this game (climbing, that is) is fun and interests me, not just the routes but the thoughts and debates. The ability to self govern and the honor systems we have is unrivaled, and sometimes these small discussions are just that... small discussions. Still, what would happen if I rapped into Astroman?
:D thoughts?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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length and difficulty are irrelevant
cluster frigging a popular route will get you tossed, unless you are doing everything in your power to make it easy for those going up to do their thing too.
but bottom line, it would seem that there is lots of wiggle room to follow one's own rules and spray so long as one is truthful about what one has done. That is the real rule of climbing.
If someone has "done" something and it isn't in the best possible style then you have to qualify your "dones" - NTTIATWWT
but if one just hangs out and clogs up the Kor with fixed lines and hang dogging for hours on end and it interferes with those going up, then maybe that's not such a good idea.
thoughts?
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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Sure, of course you shouldn't cluster a route. What about the guys that were on the tower a few days prior to my trip? They had to climb past fixed ropes and stashed camps. And what about the guys climbing the salathe? Imagine your first el cap route, exploring the headwall that robbins and chouinard pioneered, and there's chalk and duct tape marking what gear to use, fixed ropes hanging, and your tiny ledge is cramped with enough bivy gear and stashed water to make for an awesome one buttcheek bivy?
I guess my point is that there are probably more people at any given time on the salathe and the leaning tower, so to say that I would be clustering parties on Astroman or the Rostrum doesn't add up I think. Hey, Rostrum, there's a good one! Can I seige that if I pull my ropes up in between goes ;D hehe.
"but bottom line, it would seem that there is lots of wiggle room to follow one's own rules and spray so long as one is truthful about what one has done. That is the real rule of climbing. "
This is about as accurate as you could have made a statement! Well done. However, even if I reported what I had done, it would for sure be 'inappropriate behavior' on this route.
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nutjob
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 30, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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If "sieged" refers to sleeping on, before, or after the climb, then I'm a firm believer in seiging:
EB El Cap
Royal Arches
Royal Arches + Crest Jewel
Epinephrine
Hawkman's Escape
Sun Ribbon Arete (well, slept at basecamp)
And I hope to add many more to the resume. Hopefully most in the future will be on purpose!
Edit: In no case did my behavior on these debacles impede the forward progress of other parties. Only time I saw another party was when I tent-camped below the pendulum on Royal Arches, and that was the morning after.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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haha, right on! Nope, thats not seiging - thats quite the opposite, actually! Thats adventure dear sir.
Sieging is, well, I don't think we need another definition.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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Simple - it has to be hard enough that you might get sponsored if you send...
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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Greg
....
woah. I think that actually makes sense!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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sorry, not you personally, you in the universal you sense.
sounds like you know which way you want to go with the 'inappropriate' quote language. Which somewhat supports the idea that individual users make their own rules, right?
If the post is an appeal to take a different approach than those that fix and camp and lay seige to a free climb, then poor Pete and Kate better hope that we don't start judging the freight movements of aid climbers.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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Gotcha, that makes sense. While although you and I might give a guy a pass doing it, I can guaruntee you the large majority would still likely get all tiffy!
Pete will always have a pass, I mean c'mon, nothing wrong with moving slow, right??
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scuffy b
climber
Sinatra to Singapore
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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I seiged Sundance at Suicide in 1975.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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Go ahead and siege/work A-man if you want. But it would probably be more time-effective to work pitches at the Cookie to build your skills.
Sieging/working is more helpful in the higher grades, when the cruxes involve more face climbing. By working, you can figure out where the good holds are (for the Hubers, extend this to adding big tick marks by the good holds/jams/pro) and find sequences of moves that are good. Sieging will not help you on the Enduro Corner of A-man - you need fitness and good technique for that.
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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I don't think I am the only person who enjoys working routes that are over my on-sight ability and then eventually sending them. Sometimes its fun and it doesn't hurt anyone or anything if you are not getting in the way of other people who want to do the route. Astroman seems like a bad choice for this type of thing given how many people want to try it. Sure its a low adventure proposition, but its your own choice and one you make for your own reasons.
Who is in this group of climbers who you think would think poorly of you because of a choice that you made that didn't hurt anyone else, endanger access or damage resources, and why would you care about what those types of people thought anyway?
Just don't go out with someone who is considering doing a long route with you and climb your long time projects without explaining the realities of your on-sight abilities.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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I never sieged Astroman, but after I did it a few times the first pitches (through the enduro) became a really fun crag. If you want, go up and work the boulder and the enduro pitches and see how you do. Just don't clog up the thing for folks wanting to send the whole route.
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Reminds me of the guys who left fixed lines through the crux of the Beckey Chouinard on S. Howser last summer.
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scuffy b
climber
Sinatra to Singapore
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Jun 30, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.
I seiged Sundance in the older sense, that is, we didn't make it
all the way in a push, returned to the ground, ascended fixed
rope to finish the climb the next day.
No working the route, just a 2-day ascent of a 3-pitch 5.10 climb.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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Sundance is worth taking your time on though.
:)
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 30, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
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When you go to the Cookie to work your way up to Astroman, if you pick the right time of year, it might be pre-sieged for you. ;-)
Last weekend there were giant X's on every single hand hold on the 5.8, formerly 5.7, traverse on Sellaginella. No fixed lines so far as I know.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 30, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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you could spend years at the cookie and never work up to jumping on astroman.
you wanna climb astroman? go do it. i dont care if you hang on a couple pieces on the enduro pitch and yard some others somewhere else: 10c A0.
i have a hard time imagining "sieging" as an issue in the valley, when the premiere route on the premiere cliff is almost universally aided over a period of days.
if folks were really worried about style, the nose would be the emptiest route in california.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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I seige 5.7 regularly.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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Fixed ropes on the Beckey-Chouinard? You must be kidding.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 30, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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V-2. Some things are worth taking years to perfect...
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 30, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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Go ahead and work Astroman if you are keen to do so. The only things that matter are (1) that you are getting what you want out of your climbing, and (2) that your tactics do not hinder others getting what they want out of climbing.
With respect to #2 above, gear left on a route that is not in use is trash and/or booty, whether that route is Freerider or After Six. Now I admit that what constitutes being "in use" is a fuzzy kind of line. If someone fixes lines and goes down for another night on the ground, that seems OK to me. But when folks leave fixed lines on something for weeks, or the whole season, or more (e.g., Watkins a couple of years back), it is trash and subject to removal as far as I am concerned.
The idea that it is OK to skirt ethical standards just because the route is hard (or, even worse, to make it 'convenient') is repugnant. The whole point is to bring yourself up to the level of the climb, not to bring the climb down to your level. I'm speaking here mostly of ethics, which impact everyone's experience of a climb (e.g., retrobolting, leaving trash on route, leaving tick marks on routes after you are done [maybe even placing them in the first place], etc.) rather than style, which only impacts your own experience of a climb (e.g., aid or free, rehearsed or onsight, etc.). Although I think the point holds for matters of style as well.
A bit of an off-topic rant I guess. If you think you can free Astroman by working the pitches, and doing so seems rewarding to you, I say do it.
Brian
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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Simply as a logical exercise it seems to me this breaks down into two critical elements.
Style
Courtesy for others
As to style, as long as the rock is not changed, it should be up to the climber. If you enjoy spending many days learning how to get up something, go do it.
As to courtesy for others, it is another matter. If one stays on a route in such a manner as to prevent others from enjoying it, you are out of bounds.
If ropes or other equipment are left on a route in the climber's absence, you are out of bounds. If you think you may be unable to complete in one day, take a butt bag. Spend the night and have a memorable climb.
Potentially the most difficult situation as regards courtesy involves parties passing. It seems that is handled fairly well.
A party that finds equipment on a route should feel they have the freedom to drop the equipment if they feel it has been an imposition. It won't always be for everyone. But the option should be there, with no reservations.
Natural processes find their equilibrium only when there is "feedback." If it were not necessary that bills be paid we all would be drunken sailors. If one thinks their rope may be dropped they will have the feedback needed to make the appropriate decisions.
I have never encountered a left rope. Finding gear never caused me any distress. I actually looked forward to that eventuality. IMO a rope left on a climb is just simply poor.
Before jumars came along no one even considered leaving a rope. No point unless you were into batmaning.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 30, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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"i have a hard time imagining "sieging" as an issue in the valley, when the premiere route on the premiere cliff is almost universally aided over a period of days. "
It's a much bigger issue than it was in the past, mostly due to folks using fixed ropes on trade aid routes to work moves and pitches by folks wishing to free the routes.
Then the people who want to repeat the, now freed, route sometimes do the same.
So the question of "Where to draw the line?" is very real. Do we accept fixed lines each season on Leaning Tower, Freerider, or less popular routes as suitors get their moves dialed?
It's a tough one. Fixed lines were on leaning tower lately. It killed some of the adventure for folks doing some of their first walls (but also bailed a few people out of their epics) And helped an aspiring wall free climber get their rad prize. Winners and losers all around. How to decide?
PEace
karl
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john hansen
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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Ask the Russians..
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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5th.....just 5th.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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How difficult does it have to be? Depends on how I feel that day.
Curt
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kev
climber
CA
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If sieging involves copious amount of beer and fixed lines I've been there, done it, and will continue.
My few beers worth
kev
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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^^^
Kev, could you possibly be speaking of the 800 ft or so of fixed rope and some mention of more beer, pizza, and safety equipement?
Downward bound!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Gdavis,
I agree with Stannard that this largely boils down to style and courtesy, mostly. But if you want advise from real highly experienced climbers as to how to proceed with a climbing career, I would then add that in 46 years I never sieged a climb---never approached a climb in the manner you propose. And I didn’t know any top level climbers who did. And it has only been recently that we have frequently been sieging giant free climbs, all of which are in the 5.13 and higher category.
Pretty much without exception I chose to spend my time climbing routes that I understood I probably could do. By spending all the time climbing I of course consequently got in a lot of climbing and did not get in others’ way while having a very embarassing fantasy about what I thought I was doing. Because the routes I chose followed a logical development nearly always, I improved very rapidly, had therefore an awesome foundation to work off of; I reached the top end of the scale and stayed there for quite a few years and have had one hell of life in climbing with literally many miles of hard free climbing accomplished.
When you hang around on an established route of the difficulty you suggest (merely 5.11-ish) and eventually do “the moves” as you suggest, you have not done the climb and probably have not done those pitches either. And yet you imagine you have “kind-of/sort-a” done Astroman and as time goes by you will be more and more convinced of this dream as you think back on it. And yet you never did the climb. A climb is not "moves".
It just is the strongest way of seeing to start at the bottom, get to the top, come down and not be pulled into fantasies, peeking into Mom and Dad’s bedroom. Go do routes that are near your limit; do tons of them; work off of an ever-improving platform rather than leaping into territory you don’t actually understand at all.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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As a way to contextualize Peter's comments and references to his own climbing career see Left Side of Hourglass and/or the first solo of the Salathe. One might consider doing those in fine style before considering a siege.
Having been thoroughly humbled at Indian Rock last night I'll be sieging an apple fritter.
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jstan
climber
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I did not try to get into the opinion side but Peter's experience is very close to my own FWIW. Where I was climbing there are few cracks but I found a nice overhanging one and so I tried it, 12 times. As I was getting to its top out of the blue I thought, "This isn't climbing. This is BS. That's it. No more."
Climbing's greatest rewards, I think, come from covering lots of ground, movement if you will, while at the same time building confidence and skill. The thread on North Twin, though in a different medium, reaches in and grabs the heart of it all.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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To add to what John and Peter have wisely said, climbing loses its dreamlike quality once adventure slithers out the back door. I don't siege routes either, knowing that my best effort comes from preparation and clear intent. If you are battling the desire to employ trickery and tactics when things get tough and scary for you, at whatever grade, the intense focus needed to have a breakthrough experience is simply much harder to achieve. It is deeply satisfying to summon your best effort in the face of the unknown and accept the results knowing that adventure is the key to a long and fulfilling life of climbing. That kind of joy makes all the risk and hardship purposeful and rewarding.
If you want to do Astroman, then get busy and inspired! Those boys were, on that day! You can have a piece of that too, if you don't let your ego take the stage.
A little boy inside a dream just the other day
His mind fell out of his face and the wind blew it away
A hand came out from heaven and pinned a badge on his chest
It said get out there, man, and do your best
They call him astro man
And he's flyin' higher than
That faggot superman ever could
Oh, they call him cosmic nut
And he's twice as dense as donald duck
And he'll try his best to screw you up
The rest of your mind
Oh, look out! my guitars
Astro man, flyin' across the sky two times higher
Than that old faggot superman ever, ever could
Ever could
There he goes, there he goes
Where he stops, no one knows
There he goes, there he goes
He's tryin' to, tryin' to blow out the rest of your mind
He's gonna blow out the rest of your mind
Talkin' about lookin' for peace of mind
Astro man will leave it in pieces
Have you put your trouble behind him
Make you fly around in pieces
Yeah, blow out the rest of your mind
Astro man will blow out the rest of your mind
He's gonna blow out the rest of your mind
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