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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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What is the bolt count on the Captain again?
You really think a few more will turn your adventure
into an amusement park? Go to Zion if you want
adventure.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Couple of things:
 It DOES matter. Climbing is NOT a sport. Tennis is a sport.
They are not "real" bigwallers. They are real bigwallers. There's a reason they're venomous.
The translation of Erik's reply is this: the middle finger. He sees himself as a visionary rising above meddlesome opposition. If you're a crusader, you don't have to be a part of the conversation. (See above: venom.)
A personal testimonial: When I got on the ZM some years back, pretty green and pretty gripped, the first pitch was old rivets leading up to hooks (?) traversing left to an old 1/4 rusty spinner. I stood there for ten minutes, pretty sure if I clipped that bolt, I would deck, and once I'd clipped it, another ten minutes afraid to commit to the next move, lest I fall on the bolt and deck. It's pretty stupid, but it's one of my vivid memories of the climb. The rivets AND bolts were subsequently retroed to 3/8s WITH hangers, since returned by B-Law to 3/8 rivets. Had I gotten up there a year or two later, I would've been robbed of that moment. I don't mean this as slander, but Erik Sloan is a thief. His work steals from routes and the people who end up climbing them.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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So what is climbing? Stepping up in aiders,climbing between bolts or placing gear? I'm with bestclimber, chop all bolts once a climb has gone free;starting with the nose.
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Mtnfreak
Mountain climber
Bellingham, WA / Bishop, CA
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But Yo, when the FA team placed those rivets and that 1/4 on ZM, they were bomber - THEY didn't worry about decking. If you're looking for the "original experience" then it makes sense that as equipment ages and weakens it needs to be replaced.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Yes, but replace a rivet with a rivet.
If you don't know the difference between a rivet and a bolt, your opinion has no weight.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Exactly. Quarter-inch is not 3/8, a rivet is not a hangered bolt.
My story's probably a little confusing; I'm not arguing for rusty junk. I was trying to point out that it makes a HUGE difference, to a lead aid climber, what sort of drilled placement he's climbing past.
My other ZM story: Just like Wrathy, I bombed out of the Nine O'Clock onto the last rivet. Is that a bolt now or what? It matters, kids. You'd think someone who claims to be so spiritual would understand this stuff. It MATTERS up there.
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Kelly
Trad climber
Albany, NY
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“Climbing is just a sport”…..All sports have levels of proficiency that people work hard to attain. It takes acquired skill and strength to climb El Capitan. Bolting routes to make them safer is usually an excuse to make something easier and more user friendly. That does not belong in areas of the valley. If you want to feel safe go to the back side of Mount Rushmore, Red Rocks or Rumney. There are plenty of places to climb, get strong,and improve skills so that one can do the classics in style. None of us picked climbing because it was ‘safe’. Replacing ¼ inch bolts is a no brainer, but adding bolts to routes that you did not put up is for a community to decide. This whole post strikes a nerve.
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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But by replacing a rivet with a rivet you end up with just more junk that will wear out in a short amount of time. Are you arguing for a higher HOLE COUNT for the history of a given climb? I think if you are going to stoop to the level of having to drill up a beautiful peace of rock then you might as well put in hardware that will last.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Where do you get the idea that a rivet wear out faster than bolts?
RIVETS AREN"T PLACED AS PRO, they are to cross blank rock PERIOD.
If some dufus places a rivet for pro, it probably should be replaced with a bolt, but that is not what we are talking about here.
I was thinking of that same quote, fattrad. Yes it was EH, and the rest of it is, "all the rest are mearly games."
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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a BOLT IS A BOLT, A PITON IS A PITON, A RIVET IS A RIVET, A HEAD IS A HEAD. One should not replace the other. And so on. That quater inch bolt when placed if place properly was just as bomber then that new 3/4" bolt replacing it now.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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"Bolting routes to make them safer is usually an excuse to make something easier and more user friendly."
I don't understand. Aren't we simply talking about replacing belay bolts and "bunk" lead rivets here?? I fail to see what's wrong with that. I'm totally opposed to adding new bolts on lead, constructing plush bivy spots at the base of El Cap (What the hell's with that?) or "over-improving" approach trails. I do feel it is the responsible thing to do to replace poor belay bolts and rivet ladders. When I did Zodiac, it was just after someone put in a new, more direct bolt ladder on pitch four. I had a choice, and after looking at the original Charlie Porter bolt ladder I went up the new one. It didn't detract from the experience I had on Zodiac. However, I would argue that the orginal bolt line should have been replaced and not a new line created.
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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Things that alter rock:
Piton
Bong
Rurp
Dowel
Bolt
Rivet
Cold Chisel
Things that do not alter rock:
nut
cam
head (when done well)
hex
hook
slung can of tunafish
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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My understanding is that the new straightened line used less holes. On FA, Porter was hunting around for some natural placement, but didn't find any, so that is sort of "a correction".
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2005 - 02:45pm PT
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whhhhoaa there naysayers, there is nothing but enthusiasm in my post. I'm psyched that you guys have decided what you want to replace fixed anchors on Yo bigwalls with. There are many wall routes(even a few whole walls like Cosmos and Tis-sa-ack with all rusty stuff) that will appreciate your attention.
After eight years of replacing bolts, my friends and I still haven't figured out how to re-use sloppily drilled 1/4" holes(an easy 30% of which are drilled at crazy angles) without enlargening them, how to get machine heads out and reuse the hole, and a variety of other preservation cruxes......so come on down and show us all how it's done.
Yes! to more people getting involved in preserving our national climbing treasures.
Yes! to more people enjoying big wall bliss!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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You know... I REALLY try not to get caught up in the CR#P on this site which, in the end, means I can't post in most of the topics these days. However, I really can't avoid this.
If it's being done as described, the bolting is flat out wrong. It's pretty standard etiquette, as well as WELL known climbing etiquette to NOT make these kinds of changes to a route, unless you have explicit permission of the FA. It's a pretty simple concept. It ruins other's experiences, usually downgrades the route significantly and well, is pretty fukkin' obnoxious.
If it's being done responsibly, then I've no problems with it. If bolts are being replaced where BOLTS existed, previously, and there isn't natural pro anywhere around, then, OK. Would really suck to die because of a rusted out bolt. I'm sure that when the FA happened they didn't place rusted out, ready to sheer bolts on the route. Seems pretty logical to replace dangerous things with like things of safe quality. Probably enough said about that. This is the standard reaction to this type of behavior which shows that at least most others understand it's wrong.
Now about the ledge thing... Man, I HOPE this is wrong. I hope what I'm reading is simply not true...!!!! I'd really hate to think what my response to this would be if I were cruising up the base of The Captain and came across this. Wouldn't be fukking good though! I typically ream people's a$$es for something seemingly more innocent in comparison, such as feeding the animals. (Actually, it's all the same thing and certainly not a more innocent act at all.) So I think about that, let alone seeing some idiot clearing a huge swath of land in a national park, next to one of most well known monuments in the world. Let alone tossing boulders off the side of it, while people may be passing below...
You're damaging precious things here. Things you have no business meddling with. Some people take fairly high offense to this. They probably wonder just what exactly the "thought" process is when someone is being such a dumba$$...? Of course, after a SHORT pause, they surely realize that such a mindless act could only come from a mindless, careless, completely selfish person.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Could somebody please enlighten me as to what specifically Erik Sloan is accused of doing in terms of reckless bolting or bolt replacement?? Thanks
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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So, if we are going to follow the rules of the FA; I can have a gas powered winch mounted on the wall & use pitons everywhere?Forget about using stealth rubber, slap on the leather boots? The hardmen of the past were great, but I bet if stealth rubber was around they would have traded their stash for it.Has anybody asked Frost or Royal? Where is this book that tells us climbers how to act?Oh by the way, when I see a piton you can bet on me putting a draw on it.I do think the hardmen of the past were much harder on the enviroment than average climber today.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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There you go, Erik. Enter the dialogue. It's easy and fun.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Cracko, seems to me that Erik is replacing rivets, and other worn shafts, with beefier hardware, sometimes by drilling a completely new hole. He says:
"After eight years of replacing bolts, my friends and I still haven't figured out how to re-use sloppily drilled 1/4" holes(an easy 30% of which are drilled at crazy angles) without enlargening them, how to get machine heads out and reuse the hole, and a variety of other preservation cruxes......so come on down and show us all how it's done."
Hard to say if he's adding hangers where there were none. But I think that has been implied by others.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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John,
Thank you. So what's the problem?? Rivets are essentially a poor man's version of a bolt. The one's I've come across on walls are pathetic. I fail to see how leaving manky rivets somehow adds to the "first ascent" experience. I also fail to see why replacing them with bolts is a slap in the face to the first ascentionists. If they're that damn worried about it then why not be real men and hook their way through blank sections, in which case I would be the first to condemn adding bolts or rivets latter. I really do belive in respecting the first ascentionist style of ascent, but if that style involves use of rivets then I have no problem with them being replaced latter with solid bolts.
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