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Erik Sloan
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 1, 2005 - 05:52pm PT
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Wow, what a rockin response. How great to hear that so many of you are ready to get down on the Yosemite route preservation tip. Thanks! The work can be arduous, but the rewards even richer.
There is much work to be done, fixed anchors still around after the folks that brought them to the rock have been laid to rest, or maybe progeny still maturing despite that the passion and might that created them has lost interest in creating--or the kind of responsible stewardship that shared magnificence requires.
Remembering Jason, Chris and I sitting around plotting our first feeble attempts to reciprocate the great love that wall climbing and Yosemite had shown us, I couldn’t think of a greater response than all of you motivated folks. See ya on the big stones!
best,
erik
ps. Ritchie and I went up on Saturday, my only day off, and bagged the peak(7340)(also known as El Capitan). She glowed like ever in those quiet waves of summer tan.
pss.
“When the great love invites you, go. Never falter. Never hold yourself back. As the sages have always said, if you hold yourself back, one day you will repent, because time doesn’t wait for you. You may wait for the time to come again, but time is merciless. It doesn’t stop. It moves on. So at a time when this great love asks you to come—go! Do not doubt whether the love will be filled with difficulties and hardships—just follow. When this great love speaks to you, listen, follow its command. Give yourself to the awakening of this love. And if its voice within you threatens to shatter all your concepts, let them go—don’t hold yourself back.” --swami Chidvalasanda
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Loom
climber
Sierra Nevada
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Hello Erik,
I'm glad you are well and had an enjoyable peak bagging.
From the sarcastic tone of your note I take it that you resent the attacks you are receiving when all you've done is worked very hard to give something back for all that you've received.
But your stewardship has not been a responsible stewardship. You do not ask others such as first ascensionists or other wall climbers, and apparently you don't even ask yourself how much is too much.
Your unquestioning expression of love is marring the experience for many that share in the magnificence. To blindly charge forward with love sounds good, but it can be as destructive as charging blindly with fear or hate; little does it matter to me if your motives are pure and you have no regret.
Climb.
Scott Lennox
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Personally I don't care about replacing rivets with bolts -fine with me. Either way, I am not making my own natural placement. But I can see why a lot of people would care -it would change the character. Similarly replacing 1/4 inch bolts with 3/8 -that seems like a good idea.. Since I never plan on doing any replacement unless I have to -don't worry. Is that all that this boils down to or is there more?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Malabarista, good question...
Methinks it is may be indeed an argument of whether or not to replace a artificial placement with another more bomber artificial placement.
Not totally sure if the notorius Sloan is adding additional bolts in general, though it seems clear that only an expert like Gerberding who's climbed a bazillion different routes, many times each, would even begin to know the complete drill history of each route, and how many drilled placements were original (Walt would have known, AND remembered). That probably pisses off the likes of Klaus, who, since he's pretty psycho when it comes to hard aid, has a lot of his routes chicken-bolted by later ascentionists, which then become indistinguishable after the route is rebolted.
But if it could be "boiled down", as you say, to whether or not an original drilled anchor is subsequently replaced with bomber drilled anchor, all the complainers have to do is wait 30 years--then the 3/8" bolt that replaces the original rivet will have the same strength as the original 5/16" machine head rivet it once replaced.
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funkness
climber
So,Ca.
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I think those Fixe SS 3/8 or 1/2 inchers will last alot longer than 30 years and still be totally bomber, maybe hundreds of years, in Yosemite granite.
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WBraun
climber
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Yep, I want bolts like the ones on an RV wheels for anchors, maybe on the ladders too. If you want to get scared free solo the aid wall......he he he.
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Loom
climber
Sierra Nevada
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Do you want the base of El Cap leveled for convenient camping too???
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Oh come on! I love bolting up Klaus's routes! Not that it does much good every route he has is intentionally on shity CHOSS! the chicken bolts probaly still will crumble and fall out on a fall anyways.
Warning!
Unless you enjoy getting chased through the woods by a crazy effed up man on a motorcycle DO NOT BOLT A KLAUSY ROUTE!
Further WARNING!!!
Klaus is only LIGHT in WIEGHT not PERSONALITY haha
Try Bolting this Sloaner
Bolting is boring anyways? Tink! Turn....Tink! turn...
~TY~
Oh and Eric yer still an Azzhole
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Klaus what did you rate the above by the way?
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Loom
climber
Sierra Nevada
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It's not just the bolting.
At the base of El Cap, between Lost in America and Zenyatta Mondatta there is a large (+/-300’sq.) leveled area. This was CREATED by Erik. He used a come-along and other equipment to move boulders, then he created a retaining wall at the perimeter, and finally he filled it with gravel, sand and small rocks.
Erik was cited for trundling rocks off El Cap Tree ledge. This was also intended to create a more human, bivy friendly environment.
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WBraun
climber
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AND? What else Scott?
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Loom
climber
Sierra Nevada
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That's much more than enough for me Werner.
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fareastclimber
Big Wall climber
Hong Kong
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Hmm... Loom, are you serious about the leveling thing? If so, that is insane... what's the purpose of it?
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WBraun
climber
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So what does Eric Sloan have to say? Hello Eric are you there?
"When this great love speaks to you, listen, follow its command."
So the first expansion of the lord is "Love", Srimati Radharani, and she said for you to do this bolting and leveling?
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Yea Fareastclimber, Loom is serious. The base of Kaos will never be the same. PLENTY of bivy spots along the base there, what was the purpose. I don't understand Nanooks reply, can someone translate for me, What the fukk!
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Hey Eric,
I don't know you, but judging from the "venom" coming out of the mouths of some of these "real" bigwallers, my support is leaning in your direction. I'm just a commoner who has, for the most part, really appreciated the work done on El Cap to make for safer belays, etc. Don't worry Klaus, you won't find me on any of your routes so don't get your panties in a bunch!
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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What you guys need to under stand is this..
Yosemite Valley..IS NOT A FUKKING AMUSEMENT PARK FOR CLIMBERS!
Us as climbers, should not depend on 4 bomber stainless 3/8 bolt hangers at belays, vacant lots at the base, Half Dome quality trails to the base, boulderless ledges and so forth. Even cattle trails like The Nose should be treated the same. Many belays on that route could be gear as well. These routes should NOT BE BUILT!! Nor should they be made to our convenience.
My friend Alik did Sunkist a couple of weeks ago and this is something he told me:
"All the belays were rivets, dowels,Leepers,and SMC's. If you do it make sure you tell your follower to try not to bounce at while they're juggin.
Awsome
~TY~
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smitty
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Ca
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All things aside, you all take this sport WAY too seriously. It is after all, just a sport.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Sunkist is a great route.
At one belay,I hauled the pig off two equalized hooks, a fish and a captain.
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darod
Trad climber
New York
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smitty, I think you belong in the gym....that's where the "sport" is.
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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What is the bolt count on the Captain again?
You really think a few more will turn your adventure
into an amusement park? Go to Zion if you want
adventure.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Couple of things:
 It DOES matter. Climbing is NOT a sport. Tennis is a sport.
They are not "real" bigwallers. They are real bigwallers. There's a reason they're venomous.
The translation of Erik's reply is this: the middle finger. He sees himself as a visionary rising above meddlesome opposition. If you're a crusader, you don't have to be a part of the conversation. (See above: venom.)
A personal testimonial: When I got on the ZM some years back, pretty green and pretty gripped, the first pitch was old rivets leading up to hooks (?) traversing left to an old 1/4 rusty spinner. I stood there for ten minutes, pretty sure if I clipped that bolt, I would deck, and once I'd clipped it, another ten minutes afraid to commit to the next move, lest I fall on the bolt and deck. It's pretty stupid, but it's one of my vivid memories of the climb. The rivets AND bolts were subsequently retroed to 3/8s WITH hangers, since returned by B-Law to 3/8 rivets. Had I gotten up there a year or two later, I would've been robbed of that moment. I don't mean this as slander, but Erik Sloan is a thief. His work steals from routes and the people who end up climbing them.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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So what is climbing? Stepping up in aiders,climbing between bolts or placing gear? I'm with bestclimber, chop all bolts once a climb has gone free;starting with the nose.
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Mtnfreak
Mountain climber
Bellingham, WA / Bishop, CA
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But Yo, when the FA team placed those rivets and that 1/4 on ZM, they were bomber - THEY didn't worry about decking. If you're looking for the "original experience" then it makes sense that as equipment ages and weakens it needs to be replaced.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Yes, but replace a rivet with a rivet.
If you don't know the difference between a rivet and a bolt, your opinion has no weight.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Exactly. Quarter-inch is not 3/8, a rivet is not a hangered bolt.
My story's probably a little confusing; I'm not arguing for rusty junk. I was trying to point out that it makes a HUGE difference, to a lead aid climber, what sort of drilled placement he's climbing past.
My other ZM story: Just like Wrathy, I bombed out of the Nine O'Clock onto the last rivet. Is that a bolt now or what? It matters, kids. You'd think someone who claims to be so spiritual would understand this stuff. It MATTERS up there.
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Kelly
Trad climber
Albany, NY
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“Climbing is just a sport”…..All sports have levels of proficiency that people work hard to attain. It takes acquired skill and strength to climb El Capitan. Bolting routes to make them safer is usually an excuse to make something easier and more user friendly. That does not belong in areas of the valley. If you want to feel safe go to the back side of Mount Rushmore, Red Rocks or Rumney. There are plenty of places to climb, get strong,and improve skills so that one can do the classics in style. None of us picked climbing because it was ‘safe’. Replacing ¼ inch bolts is a no brainer, but adding bolts to routes that you did not put up is for a community to decide. This whole post strikes a nerve.
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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But by replacing a rivet with a rivet you end up with just more junk that will wear out in a short amount of time. Are you arguing for a higher HOLE COUNT for the history of a given climb? I think if you are going to stoop to the level of having to drill up a beautiful peace of rock then you might as well put in hardware that will last.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Where do you get the idea that a rivet wear out faster than bolts?
RIVETS AREN"T PLACED AS PRO, they are to cross blank rock PERIOD.
If some dufus places a rivet for pro, it probably should be replaced with a bolt, but that is not what we are talking about here.
I was thinking of that same quote, fattrad. Yes it was EH, and the rest of it is, "all the rest are mearly games."
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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a BOLT IS A BOLT, A PITON IS A PITON, A RIVET IS A RIVET, A HEAD IS A HEAD. One should not replace the other. And so on. That quater inch bolt when placed if place properly was just as bomber then that new 3/4" bolt replacing it now.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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"Bolting routes to make them safer is usually an excuse to make something easier and more user friendly."
I don't understand. Aren't we simply talking about replacing belay bolts and "bunk" lead rivets here?? I fail to see what's wrong with that. I'm totally opposed to adding new bolts on lead, constructing plush bivy spots at the base of El Cap (What the hell's with that?) or "over-improving" approach trails. I do feel it is the responsible thing to do to replace poor belay bolts and rivet ladders. When I did Zodiac, it was just after someone put in a new, more direct bolt ladder on pitch four. I had a choice, and after looking at the original Charlie Porter bolt ladder I went up the new one. It didn't detract from the experience I had on Zodiac. However, I would argue that the orginal bolt line should have been replaced and not a new line created.
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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Things that alter rock:
Piton
Bong
Rurp
Dowel
Bolt
Rivet
Cold Chisel
Things that do not alter rock:
nut
cam
head (when done well)
hex
hook
slung can of tunafish
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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My understanding is that the new straightened line used less holes. On FA, Porter was hunting around for some natural placement, but didn't find any, so that is sort of "a correction".
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2005 - 02:45pm PT
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whhhhoaa there naysayers, there is nothing but enthusiasm in my post. I'm psyched that you guys have decided what you want to replace fixed anchors on Yo bigwalls with. There are many wall routes(even a few whole walls like Cosmos and Tis-sa-ack with all rusty stuff) that will appreciate your attention.
After eight years of replacing bolts, my friends and I still haven't figured out how to re-use sloppily drilled 1/4" holes(an easy 30% of which are drilled at crazy angles) without enlargening them, how to get machine heads out and reuse the hole, and a variety of other preservation cruxes......so come on down and show us all how it's done.
Yes! to more people getting involved in preserving our national climbing treasures.
Yes! to more people enjoying big wall bliss!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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You know... I REALLY try not to get caught up in the CR#P on this site which, in the end, means I can't post in most of the topics these days. However, I really can't avoid this.
If it's being done as described, the bolting is flat out wrong. It's pretty standard etiquette, as well as WELL known climbing etiquette to NOT make these kinds of changes to a route, unless you have explicit permission of the FA. It's a pretty simple concept. It ruins other's experiences, usually downgrades the route significantly and well, is pretty fukkin' obnoxious.
If it's being done responsibly, then I've no problems with it. If bolts are being replaced where BOLTS existed, previously, and there isn't natural pro anywhere around, then, OK. Would really suck to die because of a rusted out bolt. I'm sure that when the FA happened they didn't place rusted out, ready to sheer bolts on the route. Seems pretty logical to replace dangerous things with like things of safe quality. Probably enough said about that. This is the standard reaction to this type of behavior which shows that at least most others understand it's wrong.
Now about the ledge thing... Man, I HOPE this is wrong. I hope what I'm reading is simply not true...!!!! I'd really hate to think what my response to this would be if I were cruising up the base of The Captain and came across this. Wouldn't be fukking good though! I typically ream people's a$$es for something seemingly more innocent in comparison, such as feeding the animals. (Actually, it's all the same thing and certainly not a more innocent act at all.) So I think about that, let alone seeing some idiot clearing a huge swath of land in a national park, next to one of most well known monuments in the world. Let alone tossing boulders off the side of it, while people may be passing below...
You're damaging precious things here. Things you have no business meddling with. Some people take fairly high offense to this. They probably wonder just what exactly the "thought" process is when someone is being such a dumba$$...? Of course, after a SHORT pause, they surely realize that such a mindless act could only come from a mindless, careless, completely selfish person.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Could somebody please enlighten me as to what specifically Erik Sloan is accused of doing in terms of reckless bolting or bolt replacement?? Thanks
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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So, if we are going to follow the rules of the FA; I can have a gas powered winch mounted on the wall & use pitons everywhere?Forget about using stealth rubber, slap on the leather boots? The hardmen of the past were great, but I bet if stealth rubber was around they would have traded their stash for it.Has anybody asked Frost or Royal? Where is this book that tells us climbers how to act?Oh by the way, when I see a piton you can bet on me putting a draw on it.I do think the hardmen of the past were much harder on the enviroment than average climber today.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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There you go, Erik. Enter the dialogue. It's easy and fun.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Cracko, seems to me that Erik is replacing rivets, and other worn shafts, with beefier hardware, sometimes by drilling a completely new hole. He says:
"After eight years of replacing bolts, my friends and I still haven't figured out how to re-use sloppily drilled 1/4" holes(an easy 30% of which are drilled at crazy angles) without enlargening them, how to get machine heads out and reuse the hole, and a variety of other preservation cruxes......so come on down and show us all how it's done."
Hard to say if he's adding hangers where there were none. But I think that has been implied by others.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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John,
Thank you. So what's the problem?? Rivets are essentially a poor man's version of a bolt. The one's I've come across on walls are pathetic. I fail to see how leaving manky rivets somehow adds to the "first ascent" experience. I also fail to see why replacing them with bolts is a slap in the face to the first ascentionists. If they're that damn worried about it then why not be real men and hook their way through blank sections, in which case I would be the first to condemn adding bolts or rivets latter. I really do belive in respecting the first ascentionist style of ascent, but if that style involves use of rivets then I have no problem with them being replaced latter with solid bolts.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Exactly.
This bullsh-t about "preserving the experience" is pure ego talking, one climber wanting all subsequent climbers to go through the same thing they did. Nothing that a human can control, ultimately, though as Werner will tell you, people will die trying to hold onto it, only to come back as a mattress or something.
Sure, there's a line there somewhere about adding additional anchors, but for such hairsplitting about a specific, time dependent, artificial anchor, whether it should hold 4000 lbs, or only 1750 lbs because the great first ascentionists had to do it that way is pure crap, and shows how bored people must be with their own climbing.
Get out of town and climb some new stones somewhere, people!
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BitchMcFist
Big Wall climber
Fallujah
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Exactly. Erik I think you should go to the Trango Towers and bolt that route that Deuce and Toto did. I've been drooling to do the route but not until it's been made safe. I don't want to free the worm hole or hook through avalanches so make sure there's bolts there too.
I think it's great that these El Cap routes are finally getting easier. It's about time. A paraplegic climbed El Cap so I should be able to also. It's my right as a fat beer drinkin' American to climb the big stone so it better damn well be safe!
And the power drilling issue? Well at least the Rangers are cool enough to look the other way about Sloan's sacred activities. Do you expect him to do all that drilling by hand? puleese people, give him a break already!
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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What a bunch of crap. Oooooh you're so much more bold if you hang off of crappy rivets than bolts. Hanging is hanging, might as well be a good piece of hardware.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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y'know mr. bitch, it's been 13 years since Xaver and I did that route, anyone would be a fool to go up there without a drill kit. We didn't place a lot of drilled anchors, but I'm sure the avalanches have shredded some of them by now.
anyway, you have to be a pretty bold climber to get through the initial 2500' of rock and ice climbing up the dangerous Ali Baba couloir just to get up to the base, so even if I cared if the second ascentionists were as equally and exactly as terrified as we were up there, they would deserve it!
By the way, there are a couple rivets on the overhanging wormholes: after several harding slot maneuevers at 20,000 feet, squirming and trying not to get spit out into the gaping abyss below, I came across a section about a hundred feet into the pitch that I just could not get through. In a 5.9 smearing stem/chimney position, I was barely able to drill a shallowest of shallow rivet on the outside of the wormhole, looking at the big whip at any moment. So I can tell you that first rivet is mank and may need replacing. But if you wear a medium instead of a large T-shirt, you might be able to squeze through and do the FFA of that pitch in its entirety!
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Max
Social climber
squampton
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Wow, this is all going nowhere really fast. Nothing has ever been resolved on supertopo, and my guess is that nothing ever will. It is simply a place to slander and be slandered in the comfort of your own glowing console. Find joy in that and leave the conflict resolution to when you're actually there, climbing.
You all do climb, right?
ps. deucy- yours is a voice of reason i do respect, unfortunately, after surviving joshua tree and season and a half in the ditch, the beloved green schwinn was cruelly stolen by no good low lifes in the bowels of Santa Cruz. May they die a grisly death...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Max-
I'll plan to bring another cruiser to contribute to the general cause when I come this fall for my annual josh pilgrimage.
no dirtbag camping scene is complete without a cruiser!
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BitchMcFist
Big Wall climber
Fallujah
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Deuce, like I said, I'd like to go do your route, what's it called "Grand Voyage" or somethin'? But not until it has been rendered completely safe. I sure do wish Sloan would be up to the challenge.
Sloan is a good guy, his efforts are greatly appreciated by climbers such as myself, who can't figure out how to assemble a natural anchor or nail past tricky sections. I just like telling people that I've climbed the Reticent, it is an A5 route, you know.
Oh, and yeah, Deuce, you're an old man now who has quit climbing years ago. Your opinion does not matter, unless you agree that added bolts are good, then we're cool.
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WBraun
climber
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"Get out of town and climb some new stones somewhere, people!"
He he he ..... ha ha ha, give it to em John.
"Oh, and yeah, Deuce, you're an old man now ...."
You're dreaming Bitch!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I can't believe it...all this chatter about Nanook, and still no mention of this:
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WBraun
climber
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Bosch is wimpy Lambone ..... Hilti rules.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Yeah, it's a Hilti
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mark_s
climber
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i can understand to replace an old bolt with a new bolt. When the FA was done, the bolts were new and gud. Now there NOGud I think its ok to replace them, same goes for a rivit.
But to make the anchors 3 bolts, when the anchor takes gear, poor style.
As well I feel that to "preserve" (what ever that means) the climb and experience, you should contact the FA,if their not dead, or the climbing community. So that bolts/rivits aren't being added on route.
SOmething of note..the RURP belay on the Sea, there are only so many times that that belay was going to take RURPS. Eventually sawed-offs won't fit. Do you make it a bolt belay? Or just nail it higher/lower to make a natural gear belay?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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There was always a big-ass bolt at that belay. The Bird's just smart enough not to put it in the photo.
"after several harding slot maneuevers at 20,000 feet..." Right on, JM! I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.
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WBraun
climber
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"Eventually sawed-offs won't fit. Do you make it a bolt belay? Or just nail it higher/lower to make a natural gear belay?"
You already know the answer to that ..... use your head, think.
I am blown away by this nonsense in this thread. It's like people stuck in quicksand ........ sinking very fast.
There's only one person that can save us ......and we are blind to the one.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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"and we are blind to the one"
keanu reeves is gonna save us?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Deuce4 wrote, "Get out of town and climb some new stones somewhere, people!"
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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I love how far some people can manage to cram their heads up their asses.
Bitch, an anonymous Internet coward posting here for two months, insults Deuce (a strong supporter of ethics) because he had reasonable views about replacing a rivet with a bolt.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Wow, 10 years after.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Old flames
thought to be ash
are just embers
waiting for a
blow-hard.
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