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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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I don't think you need to go as extreme as some are suggesting. Fast packing proponents point to three big things to lighten a load: backpack, tent and sleeping bag.
Last summer I used a 3500 cu Wild Things ice sac for a 5 day solo trip in the Sierras (meaning I carried everything). A tight fit, especially with the bear canister and a SAT phone, but doable. Everyone's probably chimed in on these but I'd do the following:
Get a smaller, lighter pack. I used to use a Gregory, but it's like an SUV, comfy but really heavy. You don't need a 6 lb. pack, especially if you're packing light.
Lightweight sleeping bag. I have a NF Rock Wren that weighs 1 lb. and is warm to 30 degrees. Packs up to the size of a grapefruit. I love it. I still bring an ensolite or LIGHT inflatable pad that's only about 2/3 length and narrow. It's nice to supplement with the removeable back pad from my pack. To me, you gotta be comfy at night, but that doesn't mean you need a mattress sized pad.
Lightweight tent. Easy to find a 4 lb. tent these days. I don't like bivy bags because of skeeters and they feel claustrophobic at night. Kicking it in the tent with a book is one of my luxuries in the backcountry. Plus if you share of 4 lb. tent with one other person, you're only carrying 8-16 oz. more than if you had just the bivy.
Other than that, ruthlessly pare down to the basics. Lightweight shell, one each of everything, no spares. The rest you can figure out.
Edit: I can't deal with just eating bars, etc. I once went on a 3 day with just stuff like that and felt hungry the whole time. I had just a bivy bag too and got eaten alive by mosquitos. A miserable trip.
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GRJ
climber
Juneau AK
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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LEAVE NINJA TECHNIQUES TO NINJAS!!!
I've done the no flavor food it sucks. If you want to shiver under a rock eating hard tack, tuna, and bleach flavored water go for it. But that isn't going to be much of the deciding factor in your success.
A stove and a canister or two (I'm never all that upset about having too much fuel) will allow you to fuel your body. REST, HYDRATION, NUTRITION, these are keys to success.
All of this lightweight stuff is great, but it doesn't replace conditioning. 45#-65# is going to fatigue your muscles about the same in the long run. If you are conditioned you'll recover and be able to perform if you aren't, you won't
Here are few ideas on the nerdy gear end:
ROPE: Are you doing 60m sustained technical pitches? Are you doing 110ft+ rappels? I like the idea of the 40m rope for moderate climbs. It is lighter and you stay closer on long simul sections. If you knock 10-20m off your rope you can carry a 9.4/5 and have more protection against the coarse alpine granite.
PRO: Luck favors the prepared.......but if you are preparing for failure well you get the idea. I haven't backed off that many climbs in the mountains because I didn't have the right piece of pro. Think light Black Diamond C4s, Metolius Power Cams. Then the all mighty passive pro. It doesn't freeze, it is cheap and it is light. Then dyneema runners and ultra light biners, it seems like most brands make a 30g wire gate.
TENT: Single wall all the way! BD First Light (not that great for tall guys). But for the Sierras the Megamid/Wing tents are great. They provide shade that bivy sacks don't.
Foam pads over airmats
LW Boots? how about approach shoes
Aluminum Crampons
LW Axe
LW Helmets
Shells: Windshells, the will get you to dry clothes. Most are less than 1/2lb
Plastic Bladders
Collapsable Bowls
Find a lightweight pack no bigger than 45L. You can still get a lot of booze in a 45L pack.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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What an interesting thread(even though I don't think I will ever be in the sort of situation Micronut goes into). He might feel (a lot) better if he ever saw my weekend at the Gunks deal. Of course, I have to pack/carry Teddy's gear too.....
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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If you buy a 5000 CC pack, YOU WILL FILL EVERY CC OF IT!
Not sure how big your pack is, but try using a smaller pack, say a day pack for a 2-3 day trip and make due with the bare minimum.
I have a big pack and I feel that I MUST fill every cubic inch of that sucker to get my money's worth...madness I tell ya, madness. Then one trip I took my crag sack for a multi-day trip, weighed like 30 lbs. and was in heaven. I sure missed my expresso machine in the mornings though...
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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good god, I would die packing all that stuff. I froze my ass off or partched and starve myself on a bunch of walls. Made the top but god was it a lousy time. Now I just sit back and read supertopo and crack a beer from time to time.
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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Let's try this using an additive rather than subtractive synthesis approach:
1) If there's a supertopo gear recommendation, cut it in half. Otherwise, go with a "light alpine rack" - maybe 5-8 cams from tiny to #3 or #4 and a set of nuts. Not sure about ice screw recommendations. Use smaller diameter ropes. Don't bother with 70m. Most times I try to stretch out pitches on alpine territory it ends up with a rope cluster-f@#C. The notable exception was Sun Ribbon Arete, where long long distances between gear was normal on mostly easy and unobstructed territory (and 60m rope was fine).
2) Shoes: climbing shoes + approach/descent shoes. Consider if the route is feasible to descend in your climbing shoes to leave the approach shoes at basecamp. I always wear cotton standard gym socks. Maybe bring 1 spair pair if the descent involves hours of deep sandy talus.
3) Bottoms: thick synthetic long underwear if cold, plus cotton/poly sweatpants or goretex pants depending on weather. I'll often skip the outer layer.
4) Tops: one synthetic long sleeve, 300 polartech vest, thin/light wind-resistant goretex stretch-shell with minimal pockets.
5) Gloves: very thin pair of neoprene or capilene/high-activity gloves. Standard gloves make my hands too sweaty if I'm moving and don't keep them any warmer if I'm holding still. No point to use goretex gloves - hands will sweat in them too.
6) Head: I use a capilene balaclava (ninja-style mask) in mild to cold conditions. Helmet optional depending on weight/volume goals and the destination. That plus the hood on the stretch-goretex jacket is enough. If anything gets wet, just wear it until it dries. Don't bother with extras. If you get cold, start moving. If you're too tired, eat a snack and dig deeper. Always remember you chose to be there, and welcome everything you experience along the way!
7) Cooking gear: leave it at home. Save the weight+space of the pots and pans, cups, plates, silverware, pots, fuel canister, etc... If you're really worried about the cold and not having water, bring the smallest fuel canister half-full and a single pot for boiling water. Skip the Mountain House, buy a loaf of bread or tortillas, some cheese, and cook some bacon and keep in ziplock bags if you need meat. Bring those little Gu packets or similar energy gels. I like to bring an Odwalla drink or two to lift my spirits after reaching base camp; also try a pint of Ben&Jerry's for the calories and luxury. Of course it's all optional for just 3 days.
8) Sleeping gear: one half-size inflatable pad or foam pad. Go with the foam if you can afford the space but not the weight. I've gone many times without a pad, sometimes fine and sometimes froze my arse off. You can always sleep on your backpack or the rope if the ground is too cold. I've slept with my body sandwiched between my partner sliding onto me and the ice wall in the cave. It's uncomfortable, but it won't kill you. Seriously, it will give you more of what you went on that trip for :)
NOTE: don't try an inflatable pool toy for ground pad. They pack seriously small and flat, but they don't hold up well when sandwiched between granite and your harness-covered body with nut tools and stuff hanging off. Mine lasted 1 hour when I tried it.
Sleeping bag... don't go with down unless it's waay below freezing or it's great weather and you're OK to risk being very uncomfortable in favor of weight/space. Even in snow, I've been miserable with the bag all wet and flattening out like a cat in a bathtub. Go with a modestly-rated synthetic bag if it's rainy or snowy.
bivy sack is optional. In good weather I'll skip it altogether, in questionable weather, I'll bring it and use it.
Tent = unnecessary for almost anything in the sierras. You can either get by in a bivy sack, or build a snow cave if it's ugly, or if it's really ugly you can improvise a snow ditch or use tree branches, etc.... read about survival shelter-building techniques.
9) Shovel is unnecessary. I've built a cave with my snowshoe and fine-tuned the ceiling using an ice-axe. Maybe for avalanche rescue... but then a snowshoe will work in a pinch. Just get good avi transponders and that avalung thing. Those plastic big shovels with collapsible handles DO NOT hold up well. Better off with a snowshoe.
10) Water... I'll bring a water filter for longer excursions because that's lighter than packing in a lot of water. If there's no possibility for pumping water, I'll bring more stove fuel or just bring more water if it's not cold/snowy.
Really, take a look at everything you actually bring and ask yourself "what would happen if I left this at home?"
If you don't immediately answer "I'LL DIE!!!" then don't bring it.
Well, that's how to make your pack lighter.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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WTF ??? I carried maybe 50 lbs for 7 days on the Cassin Ridge. One the biggest load factors is too much food. Ditch about half of it you will never eat all that crap anyways. And besides your butt is too big. That and all those bars are just going to make you all constipated. Two nights out one fuel can, bivy sac with a bag or a light tent. Bibler is my weapon of choice. Pad - rip the POS out of the pack and stuff a Thermarest down there instead. And if can not do that get a pack that you can. And while you are at get a smaller pack. Most packs are loaded down crap with more whistles and bells than French hooker in Marseille. Down booties are for pussies camp in the same spot for a week. Whiskey screw that what are going to do with the bottle when it is empty - piss in it? Two tools for a little incline - go practice so you are comfortable using one tool for ice slopes up to at least 50 degrees. Snow saw what are going to do make cute little snow sculptures instead of climbing?? A shovel?? if you need to dig use your ice axe.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Fat Dad,
>I can't deal with just eating bars, etc. I once went on a 3 day
> with just stuff like that and felt hungry the whole time. I
> had just a bivy bag too and got eaten alive by mosquitos.
> A miserable trip.
on a weekend climbing trip into the deeper high sierras, if you are not above the skeeters on night one, your chances of topping out next day are rather small. though i grant you, in the worst of the season, them skeeters get way up high (why? not like there is much to suck up there, other than me). if they irritate me, my response is to go higher, that or a teeny smudge fire (hushhh, it's not like i'm gonna light the scree on fire).
i dunno, when out on a long day at the local crag, what do we eat? porkchops with apple sauce and mashed? nah, we eat a couple power bars and an apple. and we have a ball. why is two days of that so extreme? on the way out, who cares -- dreaming of prime rib keeps both the chin and pace up.
~~~
that said, i do see your typically excellent point. you gotta ask yourself, what'd'i wanna do this weekend? race in and pick off a long alpine route -- or lay back in an alpine meadow and just listen to the birdies? i myself much love both, and devote equal time to each.
last fall i took my sweetie into Bechler meadows up in the other YNP (from the idaho side). i carried a functional RV on my back. we had a fair wine cellar, coffee from a french press, full length thermo-poofy pads, candle lanterns, hell -- i even carried two meals worth of my famous(ish) salmon poached in apple sauce served over tabouli with port reduced peaches and pears, in tupperware.
sure, i went kinda knees weebly with all manner of poofery strapped to my beloved '83 lowe triolet (i looked like one of those AppTrail heroes). but a great 5 day weekend.
moderation in all things -- including moderation... eh?
both extremes are good: the beach chairs, and the shiver and hustle.
~~~
GRJ,
> If you want to shiver under a rock eating hard tack, tuna, and
> bleach flavored water go for it. But that isn't going to be
> much of the deciding factor in your success.
had i not been fast approaching my assigned max word count, i would have mentioned the pinch of lemonade powder or an herbal tea bag kills the chlorine taste. works just fine, especially if you are actually thirsty (and don't go overboard on the bleach).
i guess it all depends on how you define success. and for me, that is a wide range of things. sometimes success is pushing it, "shiver under a rock eating hard tack, tuna, and bleach flavored water" -- and topping out.
i once left SF at 10pm friday, soloed the swiss arete on sills, and made it back to SF in time to pick up my remarkable sweetheart's remarkable parents at SFO at 9am sunday. i drove them home, then promptly passed out into blessed unconsciousness. i finally actually met the outlaws at breakfast down at the docks off china beach on monday morning.
other times, it is much the opposite. as i mentioned above, i once walked at most 12 or 14 miles into Bechler meadows, hung out for a long weekend, listened to the birdies and the elk, then walked back.
both outstanding. both a complete "success"
~~~
> REST, HYDRATION, NUTRITION, these are keys to success.
true. but i can do a weekend with just one of those. and i'm certainly no ninja -- just ask my actual ninja friends.
canis fidelis est,
^,,^
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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A rope, a rack and the shirt on your back.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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Pip wrote-
"last fall i took my sweetie into Bechler meadows up in the other YNP (from the idaho side). i carried a functional RV on my back. we had a fair wine cellar, coffee from a french press, poofy full length thermo-sex pads, candle lanterns, hell -- i even carried two meals worth of my famous(ish) salmon poached in apple sauce served over tabouli with port reduced peaches and pears, in tupperware. "
Damn! Nice bro.
Deet, herb, and Emergen-C don't weigh that much.
Micronut-maybe one of those spreadsheets like GDavis uses would be helpful.
good luck on the next trip.
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GRJ
climber
Juneau AK
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just cracking a joke.
Somebody mentioned the Cassin Ridge. I totally screwed up on that, brought way too much stuff. Too long of ropes, total sh#t show. Two days up though. Very tired, way too much espresso gu.
I wouldn't say I am a full "ninja" either. I was just saying you don't have to be a badass to have a good time in the mountains. For me I like long days and covering lots of ground, and I don't like carrying heavy loads. So I prefer the car to car days. But sometimes it is nice to go out into the alpine and camp and enjoy the mountains, lakes, and alpine meadows.
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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Gotta agree with Pip's wisdom.
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:08pm PT
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Did Raydog chime in here with any advice? I'm sure he's got something to say on the subject :)
Thanks Ray, your book for PCT made me reconsider what is really needed, and helped confirmed what I thought were some of my own weird preferences (e.g. lightweight cheap hiking boots where I never get blisters, versus folks with blisters in massive mountain boots). I won't bother cutting the tongues out of shoes and sawing the handles off of toothbrushes. But I will skip the toothbrush.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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here is another thing to do..
every time you go out, make a list of all that you have on a piece of paper. Take the paper with you, and check an item each time you use it....
...obviously, the next time you go out don't take items you didn't use or didn't use much. Keep doing this until you are out there and you really really need an item you didn't bring....
...then you're there.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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Well, I’ll do better than TELL ya what I would bring, I’ll SHOW ya!
Of course, everyone’s gonna be different, and have certain things that work for them. The best I can do is say what would work best for me, under the given circumstances.
I don’t ski, so this is what my kit would look like for a 3 day summit of the North Ridge of Conness (something I’m actually trying to find a partner for at this moment.)
The idea is that the CLIMB is more important than COMFORT. For instance, later this summer I am guiding my mom up the east face of whitney. I’ll be lugging my jumbo pack with all the comforts for that trip because I am doing it for funsies. This is going to be for fast and light!
This is it. Note that I have no ski or avy gear, as the time of year and the fact that I wouldn’t be skiing would play into. I agree with an above poster, that doing BOTH would drastically increase the amount of gear taken and decrease the success percentage.
First off, lets break down the top half. Check out those wacky hand drawn numbers!
1. Stratos gloves are both a shell and a fleece if you take the liner off. Done and done!
2. That gas can has a stove hidden underneath it (optimus crux). You see it? Yup! With aluminum you get a better heat transfer, so if you’re cooking more than two or thee times, you save the weight with the amount of fuel you don’t have to carry. it’s the only pot I havce that’s alum in that size, but the beauty is, a big empty pot can be filled with my runners, biners and cordalette!
3. The rack! Pretty light, a bunch of slings and hexes/nuts (light stuff), with a finger and hand sized cam. The hexes are oldies that I don’t feel heartbroken about bailing on, the cord is great for cutting up into rap tat and building fast belays.
4. Less than 2lb down bag in a compression sack. This is a 10 degree, its as light as my 32 degree synthetic, and with the compression bag takes up not much space.
5. My super skinny 50m rope is lent out at the moment, but this 30m 10.2mm is almost the exact same weight and similar in volume.
6. Socks. Gotta keep yer feet dry!
7. POLES. I got a pair of light ones, its worth the pound-something, especially in old snow and descents.
Not included, obviously, is stuff I’m wearing (Makalu boots, t shirt and R1 flash pullover, cap 2 bottoms and nylon/softshell pants).
Here is the bottom half:
8. Puffy coat. Synthetic, useful. Always keep handy for belays (west ridge should be simul climbed, so rare if any), and sleep in. If hot (10 degree bag, remember) makes for good pillow. Not much weight, heavier than down, but if my bag gets wet somehow, I can keep warm in an emergency.
9. Arcteryx S240 harness, light locker, lightest belay tube. it’s a sport harness, yes, but it’s as light as a swami (close to!). Also, I’m not layering, so I don’t need adjustable leg loops. I opt for a full on belay device instead of a Munter, easier for rappels. No daisy, tahts why you have a rope and slings for J
10. Crampons. Nice to have. These are kinda heavy. I could probably get away without em.
11. BD winter bivy. Good against some light snow and light rain, 8 ounces. Works decent.
12. Nalgenes are a waste of money. Here is 2L in recently used mountain dew bottles. Light, disposable, usable as piss bottles in a pinch. Extra fun that they are green bottles, impossible to tell a piss bottle from a water bottle. Hooray! (use a pen).
13. Puny axe for tough situations. Something like 360 grams. Just enough to get up and get down. The point is to go ROCK climbing!
14. Houdini shell. Gore-Tex / conduit / precip etc is overrated, and you storm inside your jacket. This thing is windproof, waterpoof, light, and I can work HARD in it without creating a sauna in my layeres.
15. Very light, very high loft fleece. Also those Synchillas by patagooch are a good ticket. Couple with a houdini zip and you’re golden.
Also headlamp, glasses, etc…
I am missing my grab bag of knife/batteries/spareGu/lighters/NuuN
Things I could use but would leave at home - Helmet, ballcap, coffee. If you used any of these I wouldn’t hold it against you and you’re probably doing the right thing :D
Stuffed this into a Khamsin 40 and had my 130lb brother put this on:
All told, according to my uber-geek excel spread sheet, 23.29 pounds on my back! According to bathroom scale, 27.5 pounds. Hrmmm… something needs calibration. According to manufacturers labels cheating you a bit of weight and stuff sacks being liars, probably close to 25 pounds in real life. Not bad, and a bit less than 65, especially for a grade III rock climb. Tally ho!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Vulva, Wyoming
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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A quick and easy way to shed some weight is to only bring one sock. Alternate as hot-spots develop.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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I know somewhere you could carry a spare, russ.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Vulva, Wyoming
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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RH Chilipepper style?
yowza! You alpinists are WACK!!!111666
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Ditch the booties. Replace that heavy, cold air mattress for a 3/4 ridge rest.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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This is awesome......
I've had an epiphany.
I need to ask what I want out of the trip, because in wanting it all I've often ended up with nothing.
These last few trips I've wanted the following....
1. Good proud route with good friends
2. Warmth (I'm kind of a sissy when I get real cold)
3. Safety (dad with kids)
4. A test of daring..........hard route for me but not too hard so we get spanked
5. Comfort at Basecamp (warm clothes, escape from the rain, good food and drink around the pocket rocket after the route)
6. Some nice turns on corn snow on the way home.
7. Just enough suffering to have a few stories back home
I like to suffer in short bits on shorter routes with day approaches but I've been taking a big expedition mentality to these Eastside routes. I gotta think ninja style like I do on trad routes near home just adding the survival gear into the mix. The "suffering" at camp will be better than suffering on the approach and never making the summy.
These need to be five day trips if we wanna carry all that gear to have that kinda experience. 2-3 days is too short for such luxury. I'm already planning to head back to Bear Creek Spire for a bit of suffering in the alpine crucible. I'm getting a new, smaller pack and a smaller sleeping bag.
Here's my new wish list.
1. Proud route with good friends
2. Strength and speed on the approach
3. Strength and speed on the route
4. Relative Safety (still a dad with kids)
5. The summit
6. Bring on the suffering
7. I'm still bringing the down booties.
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