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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 20, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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I have a serious problem. I can't seem to do a backcountry route without a huge freakin pack. It's honestly killing me. I hike slowly, I'm whuped by basecamp, and have actually not made it to basecamp (recently!) in part due to the severity of my load. Dudes pass us on the trail with smaller packs, heading to the same route, for the same amount of time in the mountains. What are these guys smokin'? How are they surviving out here with mid sized packs? People often come along side us and say..."Whoah....big packs dudes....right on." That's not a compliment. I don't think we bring along a bunch of crapola, but apparently I'm doing something wrong.
I felt buried on the approach to Bear Creek Spire this weekend (didn't summit actually) and promised myself to post some shots of my setup for all you superlight alpine trad freaks to critique.
So here's the deal. Look at these shots and tell me what I need to leave at home for say, three days in the High Sierra for a route like Conness West Ridge, U-Notch, Bear Creek Spire North Arete, etc. Day one hike in, day two route, day three hike out. The only thing not shown in this pic is two Mountainhouse dinners and the rack, which we split three ways. The three season tent was also split three ways.
Self portrait added for scale
The stash
This was a winter trip, but honestly I pack the same for summer trips in the High country other than having skins, beacons, shovel, probe,down camp booties and the extra big gloves. Oh yeah, I usually have Peets coffee which is heavier and less trendy than Starby's but worth the added weight.
Thanks-
Scott
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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I've identified the problem:
"Day one hike in, day two route, day three hike out."
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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Leave the tent behind or just bring a tent fly, just bring one ice axe, really consider what you wear and how many times do you really change on a trip, ditch the booties, split the fuel and stove, bivy sack and a tent is redundant.
It's tough, for me it's either way minimal and light or I pack for max comfort. As I get older I am actually packing less and less for trips.
Just a few thoughts.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Do you need the bivy sack? Try a megamid, they're pretty
good -- or maybe get one of the new BD single wall tents that
are pretty light. Make a list of what you take on the trip.
Check off what you use on the trip (aside from the first aid kit). If you didn't use it, leave it home next time.
One pair of clothes (maybe a light pair of dry things). . .
Good luck!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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reduce what you take to the absolute minimum to accomplish your immediate goal
then include that stuff which will reduce your risks of dying on the route to a level acceptable to your commitment
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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ontheedge, these trips are kind of my vacation from the grind, so three days is a treat. We could rationally car to car these routes, but even one night out you gotta have shelter right? Do most guys in the Sierra not bring a tent and just bivy sack it? also, I have no repeats in clothing. base, wind, down, rain are the four layers up top, and just longjohns and pants on bottom.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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First step in reducing your pack size=
Buy a smaller pack!
if it doesn't fit, don't bring it!
Your tent looks big too. Check out the Big Agnes Seedhouse.
You shouldn't need a bivi bag and a tent, one or the other.
Down booties? come on man...grow a pair.
Do you really need two axes? ditch the big one.
2 cans of gas for 3 nights? prolly not.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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a bivvy bag, with a jacket and thick pile pants with an extra pair of dry socks... what more do you need? put your pack, rope and any other insulating layer under you to keep warm...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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I'd ditch the poles, the short axe and use the long axe for walking... with a lighter pack, you won't need the poles
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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Bail tent, helmet, rock shoes, beacon, saw, one ax, down booties, goggles, 1 can of gas, huge sleeping pad, extra pack, lip balm, and vagisil.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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you prolly don't need beacons and snow saws this time of year. your going to climb not ski right?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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"Leave the tent behind or just bring a tent fly, just bring one ice axe, really consider what you wear and how many times do you really change on a trip, ditch the booties, split the fuel and stove, bivy sack and a tent is redundant. "
AND
"First step in reducing your pack size=
Buy a smaller pack!
if it doesn't fit, don't bring it!
Your tent looks big too. Check out the Big Agnes Seedhouse.
You shouldn't need a bivi bag and a tent, one or the other.
Down booties? come on man...grow a pair.
Do you really need two axes? ditch the big one.
2 cans of gas for 3 nights? prolly not. "
Really sums it up. You're taking a lot of unnecessary crap. And if you're taking a tent, You share the tent and split the load (you have tent, he has poles and fly).
What's in the orange BD stuff sack?
Way too much stuff.
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hooblie
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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are you familiar with the pros and cons of pulling a light sled. i was very satisfied with the setup where straps up, lashed into tub allowed for quick onto back transitions. the mission was a frozen river thru a granite gorge and previous attempts motivated the idea of spread load across the ice and not on your back for the plunges. after that i skied tours that allowed for the setup. one more reason to love my jensen pack; the back panel zippered all around and let you into the stuff while it was lashed in. real learning curve on sleds but drybacking it is worth considering. not talking about sledges but the disposable kiddy size at about 2 lbs. in suitable terrain makes the other guys really jealous, still helps to trim the load when you shoulder it.
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Coldfinger
Mountain climber
Bethany, CT
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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As I get older I keep upgrading to lighter gear. In my opinion you cant beat the Stephenson's WarmLite 2 person tent. At 3 lbs its lighter than two bivy sacks and will protect you from serious weather with your gear inside and protected as well. Had mine for 5 or 6 years, no problems, and was the biggest single weight saver I ever invested in.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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I hear you mirco. I say ditch:
The snow saw;
Some combination of trecking poles and axes (prolly poles and an axe that is way smaller and lighter than what you have going);
The bivi sack if you have a tent (go single wall or mega-mid and split the load);
Your ski set up (skis, skins, saw, etc.) looks a bit burly unless the point of the trip is making turns;
And not to pile on, but booties?
What's in the black Mountain Hardware bag?
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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ok.....i'm gettin' the point.......
This pack was around 65 pounds this weekend. No wonder we were so slow.
I actually bring two therma-rests too but was afraid yall would call me a pansy. Now that we have established the fact that I actually am one, I guess I coud do without some of this stuff. This was a winter/spring ski and climb trip though, so that's why we have all the avy gear. And we actually used up total of four fuel cannisters melting cooking water and drinking water.
So for summer, I guess the Arcteryx Bora 95 is a bit much. Less fuel, only one therma rest, no tent.
Ok, how about food....I think I'm taking more than the average Joe but I'm always out when we get back to the trailhead. What would yall take for three days?
Keep up the bashing, I'm lovin' it
Slow and heavy in Fresno,
Scott
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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echo above:
>tent + bivy = one too many
>(and get a lighter/smaller tent)
>ditch the piolets; get a whippet if the hard snow makes you nervous
>one larger cannister
>ditch the bigger pot
>ensolite pad instead of inflatable; even better if it can replace your pack's back panel
>booties in April in California? seriously?
>one 8 mil. rope
>lighter/smaller harness.
>plastic shovel
>ditch the snow nerd goodies. it's APRIL.
>NEVER skimp on coffee.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Ill throw in some euro ideas as we tend to carry far less kit than you guys.
you don't need a bivi bag and a tent for a trip with a single days climbing. know your limits and learn that you may have to push it to get down. the tent is important and will keep you alive if the weather turns. dont leave it behind but consider reducing its size, it looks far too large.
you don't need two cans of gas for three days even in winter. Water can be melted using your poles and a head net while you are climbing using the sun. its important that the gas can fits into the pot set, you only need one pot and you don't need a mug and a bottle.
loose to red storage thingy for the MSR, loose an axe and the silly down boots. extra socks maybe but not down boots.
get a snow saw that fits in the handle of the shovel. or probe that fits in the shovel.
get a thinner rope (9 - 8.1 mm) and a light weight harness, you don't fall when alpine climbing.
your guide book can be a photocopy rather than a book.(laminated)
hope it helps
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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slobmonster
NEVER carry a plastic shovel as a means of digging in snow they are useless in debris.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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"This was a winter/spring ski and climb trip though, so that's why we have all the avy gear"
Unless the trip is right after a storm in April, I'd say the avy gear is a bit unescesary. By now your looking at hardpack spring conditions. Only thing to worry about is wet slides in the late afternoon on steep slopes.
Your call on that one though.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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BD summit Pack (Bandit with Avalung)
We were planning on ripping open the big bowl below Cox Col and Avy danger had been bubbling between moderate to considerable on such terrain this weekend.
BD yellow bag was my skins.
Ok.....good intel....The summit pack wouldn't be needed if my original pack is mid sized I guess. One tool is all I really need now that I think of it. one pad...ouch.
yeah...plastic shovel is a good idea but scary if somebody gits buried.
Scotch is in the SIGG. No beer, I'm a purist in the High Country.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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Consider trading the beer out for whisky. I find this a tough choice sometimes, and usually just bring both.
You did drill holes in your toothbrush handle, right?
Why don't you just switch to big walls, then you can bring everything you want?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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"I actually bring two therma-rests too"
Replace with one foam mattress.
Get a scale and weight each item--you will learn pretty quickly why your pack is so heavy and where the most weight can be cut for the least cost.
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GRJ
climber
Juneau AK
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Either you go fast and light or you go heavy comfortable. Anything in between is some flavor of stupid.
Fast and light on these kinds of outings is waking up super early (better to hike in in the dark than out) being in good shape, and using your conditioning, ability and experience as you safety net.
Heavy and comfortable is burdensome in someways but it can help make a successful trip. No one likes a crappy bivy at the base of a huge face or route. Better to have a comfortable basecamp, be well fed, hydrated and rested for your climb. You are also exposed to the elements longer so many of the chic light and fast tools and techniques will make your trip miserable if things don't work out.
If the system doesn't work for your objective that should tell you something. It may not be a three day outing for YOU. That isn't to say you shouldn't be there simply that you need another day, or you need to lighten your load bite the bullet and go butt naked, get home late take a shower drink an exhaustion beer at 4am and sleep the next day.
Good luck, I hope I was helpful
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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I found what helped me learn to pack light was last-minute trips after work Friday. Just grab the pack and run out the door. You always forget an item or two, learn that weekend to climb without it, and buy a super light pack.
Seriously, in the Sierra I only ever used a megamid above 11,000', usually only a bivy sac if I didn't bring a sleeping bag.
Summers, bring a ridgerest, cut it in half and share it with your buddy. Put your packs under your feet. You should be tired enough if you are climbing hard enough not to notice. Sleeping bag with your clothes on - no tent. Everything else you wear, forget a stove in the summer. Don't carry a full water bottle. Use it as a cup at streams and to fill up before the summit push. You can down a quart at the glacier, then another for the summit/decent.
Winters, get water from under the ice - if you can't bring a stove, but forget being reliant on drugs/coffee if you want to go fast & get things done. It takes time to cook up in the morning, ...
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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Micronut,
Each of the objectives you've identified could be done--and are regularly done--in a day, car to car, by fit teams. This doesn't have to be dangerous and you don't have to be a lungs-on-legs hero to pull those off. Just be sure you know the approach/descent, get comfortable cruising on easier ground, and cut all down on the chit-chat. Get in, get up, get off...repeat.
VLG
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NotIt
Trad climber
LA westside - 3 more months
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:20pm PT
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2nd the advice for buying a smaller pack.
Cilogear 45L has been a great boon in making me think twice before packing anything. I actually used mine (only had it a few weeks now) on my trip to BCS just a few weeks ago. The fact that it goes from 12L to 60L, and are able to strip it bare (hipbelt, frame, frame/back padding, lid) means that you have one pack to do both jobs (basecamp push and summit bid).
I wore big heavy skis and skins and DID luxe out with the booties as well.
stuff you had that I didn't:
-Am I seeing a summit pack in there? (BD, black, right side)
-Get a pocket rocket or one of the myriad generic versions thereof and a titanium jug style container. The JetBoil stuff is nice, shiny, and techy, but it's also big and heavy. Wait, looks like you have one and are using it as a cup(?)
-second can of gas
-second axe
-If you drink enough scotch to fill that SIGG then we've identified problem #1. If not, get a small booze container.
-Beacon (if you get a slide along that approach this time of year...)
-Probe
-Saw
-Rock Shoes
This stuff alone is 12-15L of space, fully 20+ if that is in fact an approach pack on the right side.
Oh, and check out a closed cell foam z-rest instead of the traditional air style thermarest as others have mentioned. Lighter and better R-value for winter.
Taking that one step further, the cilogear packs use ensolite as the back padding, so you could go with a bivy pad only, though this, in my opinion, is truly for masochists.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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Oh man....these trips are going to be miserable without all my toys.
We might actually summit something and get ridiculed less on the approach by competent teams.
I gotta buy a smaller pack. Cool.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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Bail the scotch. there is a lighter alternative.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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I hope this doesn't mean a drop in quality of your TRs. They are awesome. If carrying too much stuff is the secret to good TRs, I say take and extra tent next time. :)
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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atchafalaya smokes pot!
atchafalaya smokes pot!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
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I meant ibuprofen...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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Sixty-five pounds. Whew! No wonder you were hurting.
Anyway, here are a couple more thoughts in addition to the good suggestions above. First, sounds like you were carrying gear for two separate objectives - moderate alpine climb + shredding that big bowl below Cox. So, you're now carrying both an alpine rack plus all that avy gear. Maybe do the ski trip one weekend and the climbing trip on another? Cuz the way it turned out you lugged up gear for both and were two tired to do either.
Second thing, what kind of rack were you carrying? Climbing gear really bumps up the weight, and it's easy to convince yourself that you really need two of these, three of those, and...
D
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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I'll post up a full Bear Creek Spire Attempt report soon....we actually, packed up, bailed and skied in Mammoth all day cause we got lost and scared and tired. Typical Micronut Disaster Style Expedition.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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"reduce what you take to the absolute minimum to accomplish your immediate goal
then include that stuff which will reduce your risks of dying on the route to a level acceptable to your commitment"
Ed said it as cleanly as possible.
it costs money to go light, least with climbing gear. Mammut Moses biners are the sweet biner.
meh, you heard it above. Mammut has a 8.9mm single rope that weighs only 52 grams per meter. Significant drop from any 10 mil diameter rope if you like single lines.
black trash bag in sunny conditions to melt snow in?
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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are you looking for info on lightening your winter kit, or your summer kit. unclear to me.
translating your photo of your winter kit into a light summer kit is simply too much calculus for my small mind. and i suspect this has lead to much goofery by my fellow small minds. best to pick just one. winter or summer sierra. pick one, and post your best guess accordingly.
but you did end asking about a summer kit, no? so i'll add my rupee on that front.
~~~
as for the summer kit, me, i'd:
 forget the tent; go with just a light bivi sack.
go for a fleaweight sleeping bag, there are plenty less than 2lbs. (sleep in all the clothes you have if needed).
do bring the knit ski cap, even in august (see above).
loose all the therma-rests. one thin 1/2 length ensolite pad will do. cut it to fit your torso, and fold it to fit in your new lighter pack. just stick your legs in your pack. legs don't care (though your neck and back kinda do).
forget the stove, fuel, & pans. for a weekend you'll do fine with well considered trail mix, fruit newtons, a couple bagels, and some of that tuna now available in foil bags. it takes many weeks to starve to death. i know better tricks, but 'word count'
just do weird chemistry on your water rather than boil. simple bleach works fine -- just be very sure you know the precise organic chemistry involved lest you poison yourself. in summer you'll find liquid water (or close enough, paint your water bottles flat black). if it gets esp cold (night/high) just keep ample water close to your warm mammal body).
as for coffee, just bring some instant in a small ziplock and drink it cold. hardly starbucks, but you'll avoid withdrawal seizures and soon forget about it and move on.
trekking poles? granted, with a 65lb pack i'd want 'em. but with a coherent summer pack weight you won't miss them a bit -- unless you have surgically altered knees.
cache gear/food on the way in (flag it for an easy find -- people who actually walk more than a few miles won't touch it. keep it high above the other critters, of course).
none of the routes you mentioned require much gear. many pro options, and you'll smack on a ledge long before you actually get any big air. so a single half rope, 6 or 8 mid size pro (mixed 50/50 slcd and light passive) -- that and a fair wad of light webbing to cut and use as needed (options everywhere). u-notch can be done easily with rock pro.
and oh yeah, limit yourself to no more than 6 pairs of gloves...
~~~
this is fun. good thread.
do consider posting a photo of your best idea of light summer kit for the routes you mention -- if it is summer kit you are interested in. that'd make it easier and more fun. if winter kit is your focus, say so.
^,,^
[EDIT: had to post this 3x as something about using a < sign amidst certain characters ends the post. odd.]
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MUR
climber
A little to the left of right
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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Wow, I'll hire you next time out...always wanted a Sherpa.
Those 2 pads of yours weight in at close to 4 pounds, vs 14oz for a single closed cell.
2 axes? One of which is appears to be a walking axe? Heavy Metal dude.
Get a BD alpine Bod, or similar harness. 8mm rope, (who needs screamers with this?), and take a long look at your rack. We don't even know what that looks like, but it better be sparse.
Down booties are fair game AFAIK, if I said something, I might have to leave my down codpiece at home next time.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 20, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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Forget all that heavy sleeping gear. It doesn't get that cold in the Sierra in April.
Warm clothes, some scotch and some Benadryl. If you're tired enough, that will get you through a night without pad, tent or bag. And the Benadryl will have the added benefit of reducing itching caused by any early season approach mosquitos.
Seriously, though, spend a good amount of time figuring out how you sleep best. If you want to really push and perform well while on a climb, getting a good night's sleep the nught before can really help. If that means a Thermarest and an Ensolite, then it's probably worth it. Even might be worth down booties...
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
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Mike and Pip, that's awesome intel.
You guys really dont even cook dinners on a three day trip? Just bars and Tuner Fish and stuff.....man......No wonder we only summit half the time. On this Trip I took Chicken Curry and fresh nan from a good place here in town. We eat like champs but I feel like this.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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I don't think you need to go as extreme as some are suggesting. Fast packing proponents point to three big things to lighten a load: backpack, tent and sleeping bag.
Last summer I used a 3500 cu Wild Things ice sac for a 5 day solo trip in the Sierras (meaning I carried everything). A tight fit, especially with the bear canister and a SAT phone, but doable. Everyone's probably chimed in on these but I'd do the following:
Get a smaller, lighter pack. I used to use a Gregory, but it's like an SUV, comfy but really heavy. You don't need a 6 lb. pack, especially if you're packing light.
Lightweight sleeping bag. I have a NF Rock Wren that weighs 1 lb. and is warm to 30 degrees. Packs up to the size of a grapefruit. I love it. I still bring an ensolite or LIGHT inflatable pad that's only about 2/3 length and narrow. It's nice to supplement with the removeable back pad from my pack. To me, you gotta be comfy at night, but that doesn't mean you need a mattress sized pad.
Lightweight tent. Easy to find a 4 lb. tent these days. I don't like bivy bags because of skeeters and they feel claustrophobic at night. Kicking it in the tent with a book is one of my luxuries in the backcountry. Plus if you share of 4 lb. tent with one other person, you're only carrying 8-16 oz. more than if you had just the bivy.
Other than that, ruthlessly pare down to the basics. Lightweight shell, one each of everything, no spares. The rest you can figure out.
Edit: I can't deal with just eating bars, etc. I once went on a 3 day with just stuff like that and felt hungry the whole time. I had just a bivy bag too and got eaten alive by mosquitos. A miserable trip.
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GRJ
climber
Juneau AK
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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LEAVE NINJA TECHNIQUES TO NINJAS!!!
I've done the no flavor food it sucks. If you want to shiver under a rock eating hard tack, tuna, and bleach flavored water go for it. But that isn't going to be much of the deciding factor in your success.
A stove and a canister or two (I'm never all that upset about having too much fuel) will allow you to fuel your body. REST, HYDRATION, NUTRITION, these are keys to success.
All of this lightweight stuff is great, but it doesn't replace conditioning. 45#-65# is going to fatigue your muscles about the same in the long run. If you are conditioned you'll recover and be able to perform if you aren't, you won't
Here are few ideas on the nerdy gear end:
ROPE: Are you doing 60m sustained technical pitches? Are you doing 110ft+ rappels? I like the idea of the 40m rope for moderate climbs. It is lighter and you stay closer on long simul sections. If you knock 10-20m off your rope you can carry a 9.4/5 and have more protection against the coarse alpine granite.
PRO: Luck favors the prepared.......but if you are preparing for failure well you get the idea. I haven't backed off that many climbs in the mountains because I didn't have the right piece of pro. Think light Black Diamond C4s, Metolius Power Cams. Then the all mighty passive pro. It doesn't freeze, it is cheap and it is light. Then dyneema runners and ultra light biners, it seems like most brands make a 30g wire gate.
TENT: Single wall all the way! BD First Light (not that great for tall guys). But for the Sierras the Megamid/Wing tents are great. They provide shade that bivy sacks don't.
Foam pads over airmats
LW Boots? how about approach shoes
Aluminum Crampons
LW Axe
LW Helmets
Shells: Windshells, the will get you to dry clothes. Most are less than 1/2lb
Plastic Bladders
Collapsable Bowls
Find a lightweight pack no bigger than 45L. You can still get a lot of booze in a 45L pack.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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What an interesting thread(even though I don't think I will ever be in the sort of situation Micronut goes into). He might feel (a lot) better if he ever saw my weekend at the Gunks deal. Of course, I have to pack/carry Teddy's gear too.....
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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If you buy a 5000 CC pack, YOU WILL FILL EVERY CC OF IT!
Not sure how big your pack is, but try using a smaller pack, say a day pack for a 2-3 day trip and make due with the bare minimum.
I have a big pack and I feel that I MUST fill every cubic inch of that sucker to get my money's worth...madness I tell ya, madness. Then one trip I took my crag sack for a multi-day trip, weighed like 30 lbs. and was in heaven. I sure missed my expresso machine in the mornings though...
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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good god, I would die packing all that stuff. I froze my ass off or partched and starve myself on a bunch of walls. Made the top but god was it a lousy time. Now I just sit back and read supertopo and crack a beer from time to time.
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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Let's try this using an additive rather than subtractive synthesis approach:
1) If there's a supertopo gear recommendation, cut it in half. Otherwise, go with a "light alpine rack" - maybe 5-8 cams from tiny to #3 or #4 and a set of nuts. Not sure about ice screw recommendations. Use smaller diameter ropes. Don't bother with 70m. Most times I try to stretch out pitches on alpine territory it ends up with a rope cluster-f@#C. The notable exception was Sun Ribbon Arete, where long long distances between gear was normal on mostly easy and unobstructed territory (and 60m rope was fine).
2) Shoes: climbing shoes + approach/descent shoes. Consider if the route is feasible to descend in your climbing shoes to leave the approach shoes at basecamp. I always wear cotton standard gym socks. Maybe bring 1 spair pair if the descent involves hours of deep sandy talus.
3) Bottoms: thick synthetic long underwear if cold, plus cotton/poly sweatpants or goretex pants depending on weather. I'll often skip the outer layer.
4) Tops: one synthetic long sleeve, 300 polartech vest, thin/light wind-resistant goretex stretch-shell with minimal pockets.
5) Gloves: very thin pair of neoprene or capilene/high-activity gloves. Standard gloves make my hands too sweaty if I'm moving and don't keep them any warmer if I'm holding still. No point to use goretex gloves - hands will sweat in them too.
6) Head: I use a capilene balaclava (ninja-style mask) in mild to cold conditions. Helmet optional depending on weight/volume goals and the destination. That plus the hood on the stretch-goretex jacket is enough. If anything gets wet, just wear it until it dries. Don't bother with extras. If you get cold, start moving. If you're too tired, eat a snack and dig deeper. Always remember you chose to be there, and welcome everything you experience along the way!
7) Cooking gear: leave it at home. Save the weight+space of the pots and pans, cups, plates, silverware, pots, fuel canister, etc... If you're really worried about the cold and not having water, bring the smallest fuel canister half-full and a single pot for boiling water. Skip the Mountain House, buy a loaf of bread or tortillas, some cheese, and cook some bacon and keep in ziplock bags if you need meat. Bring those little Gu packets or similar energy gels. I like to bring an Odwalla drink or two to lift my spirits after reaching base camp; also try a pint of Ben&Jerry's for the calories and luxury. Of course it's all optional for just 3 days.
8) Sleeping gear: one half-size inflatable pad or foam pad. Go with the foam if you can afford the space but not the weight. I've gone many times without a pad, sometimes fine and sometimes froze my arse off. You can always sleep on your backpack or the rope if the ground is too cold. I've slept with my body sandwiched between my partner sliding onto me and the ice wall in the cave. It's uncomfortable, but it won't kill you. Seriously, it will give you more of what you went on that trip for :)
NOTE: don't try an inflatable pool toy for ground pad. They pack seriously small and flat, but they don't hold up well when sandwiched between granite and your harness-covered body with nut tools and stuff hanging off. Mine lasted 1 hour when I tried it.
Sleeping bag... don't go with down unless it's waay below freezing or it's great weather and you're OK to risk being very uncomfortable in favor of weight/space. Even in snow, I've been miserable with the bag all wet and flattening out like a cat in a bathtub. Go with a modestly-rated synthetic bag if it's rainy or snowy.
bivy sack is optional. In good weather I'll skip it altogether, in questionable weather, I'll bring it and use it.
Tent = unnecessary for almost anything in the sierras. You can either get by in a bivy sack, or build a snow cave if it's ugly, or if it's really ugly you can improvise a snow ditch or use tree branches, etc.... read about survival shelter-building techniques.
9) Shovel is unnecessary. I've built a cave with my snowshoe and fine-tuned the ceiling using an ice-axe. Maybe for avalanche rescue... but then a snowshoe will work in a pinch. Just get good avi transponders and that avalung thing. Those plastic big shovels with collapsible handles DO NOT hold up well. Better off with a snowshoe.
10) Water... I'll bring a water filter for longer excursions because that's lighter than packing in a lot of water. If there's no possibility for pumping water, I'll bring more stove fuel or just bring more water if it's not cold/snowy.
Really, take a look at everything you actually bring and ask yourself "what would happen if I left this at home?"
If you don't immediately answer "I'LL DIE!!!" then don't bring it.
Well, that's how to make your pack lighter.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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WTF ??? I carried maybe 50 lbs for 7 days on the Cassin Ridge. One the biggest load factors is too much food. Ditch about half of it you will never eat all that crap anyways. And besides your butt is too big. That and all those bars are just going to make you all constipated. Two nights out one fuel can, bivy sac with a bag or a light tent. Bibler is my weapon of choice. Pad - rip the POS out of the pack and stuff a Thermarest down there instead. And if can not do that get a pack that you can. And while you are at get a smaller pack. Most packs are loaded down crap with more whistles and bells than French hooker in Marseille. Down booties are for pussies camp in the same spot for a week. Whiskey screw that what are going to do with the bottle when it is empty - piss in it? Two tools for a little incline - go practice so you are comfortable using one tool for ice slopes up to at least 50 degrees. Snow saw what are going to do make cute little snow sculptures instead of climbing?? A shovel?? if you need to dig use your ice axe.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Fat Dad,
>I can't deal with just eating bars, etc. I once went on a 3 day
> with just stuff like that and felt hungry the whole time. I
> had just a bivy bag too and got eaten alive by mosquitos.
> A miserable trip.
on a weekend climbing trip into the deeper high sierras, if you are not above the skeeters on night one, your chances of topping out next day are rather small. though i grant you, in the worst of the season, them skeeters get way up high (why? not like there is much to suck up there, other than me). if they irritate me, my response is to go higher, that or a teeny smudge fire (hushhh, it's not like i'm gonna light the scree on fire).
i dunno, when out on a long day at the local crag, what do we eat? porkchops with apple sauce and mashed? nah, we eat a couple power bars and an apple. and we have a ball. why is two days of that so extreme? on the way out, who cares -- dreaming of prime rib keeps both the chin and pace up.
~~~
that said, i do see your typically excellent point. you gotta ask yourself, what'd'i wanna do this weekend? race in and pick off a long alpine route -- or lay back in an alpine meadow and just listen to the birdies? i myself much love both, and devote equal time to each.
last fall i took my sweetie into Bechler meadows up in the other YNP (from the idaho side). i carried a functional RV on my back. we had a fair wine cellar, coffee from a french press, full length thermo-poofy pads, candle lanterns, hell -- i even carried two meals worth of my famous(ish) salmon poached in apple sauce served over tabouli with port reduced peaches and pears, in tupperware.
sure, i went kinda knees weebly with all manner of poofery strapped to my beloved '83 lowe triolet (i looked like one of those AppTrail heroes). but a great 5 day weekend.
moderation in all things -- including moderation... eh?
both extremes are good: the beach chairs, and the shiver and hustle.
~~~
GRJ,
> If you want to shiver under a rock eating hard tack, tuna, and
> bleach flavored water go for it. But that isn't going to be
> much of the deciding factor in your success.
had i not been fast approaching my assigned max word count, i would have mentioned the pinch of lemonade powder or an herbal tea bag kills the chlorine taste. works just fine, especially if you are actually thirsty (and don't go overboard on the bleach).
i guess it all depends on how you define success. and for me, that is a wide range of things. sometimes success is pushing it, "shiver under a rock eating hard tack, tuna, and bleach flavored water" -- and topping out.
i once left SF at 10pm friday, soloed the swiss arete on sills, and made it back to SF in time to pick up my remarkable sweetheart's remarkable parents at SFO at 9am sunday. i drove them home, then promptly passed out into blessed unconsciousness. i finally actually met the outlaws at breakfast down at the docks off china beach on monday morning.
other times, it is much the opposite. as i mentioned above, i once walked at most 12 or 14 miles into Bechler meadows, hung out for a long weekend, listened to the birdies and the elk, then walked back.
both outstanding. both a complete "success"
~~~
> REST, HYDRATION, NUTRITION, these are keys to success.
true. but i can do a weekend with just one of those. and i'm certainly no ninja -- just ask my actual ninja friends.
canis fidelis est,
^,,^
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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A rope, a rack and the shirt on your back.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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Pip wrote-
"last fall i took my sweetie into Bechler meadows up in the other YNP (from the idaho side). i carried a functional RV on my back. we had a fair wine cellar, coffee from a french press, poofy full length thermo-sex pads, candle lanterns, hell -- i even carried two meals worth of my famous(ish) salmon poached in apple sauce served over tabouli with port reduced peaches and pears, in tupperware. "
Damn! Nice bro.
Deet, herb, and Emergen-C don't weigh that much.
Micronut-maybe one of those spreadsheets like GDavis uses would be helpful.
good luck on the next trip.
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GRJ
climber
Juneau AK
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just cracking a joke.
Somebody mentioned the Cassin Ridge. I totally screwed up on that, brought way too much stuff. Too long of ropes, total sh#t show. Two days up though. Very tired, way too much espresso gu.
I wouldn't say I am a full "ninja" either. I was just saying you don't have to be a badass to have a good time in the mountains. For me I like long days and covering lots of ground, and I don't like carrying heavy loads. So I prefer the car to car days. But sometimes it is nice to go out into the alpine and camp and enjoy the mountains, lakes, and alpine meadows.
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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Gotta agree with Pip's wisdom.
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:08pm PT
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Did Raydog chime in here with any advice? I'm sure he's got something to say on the subject :)
Thanks Ray, your book for PCT made me reconsider what is really needed, and helped confirmed what I thought were some of my own weird preferences (e.g. lightweight cheap hiking boots where I never get blisters, versus folks with blisters in massive mountain boots). I won't bother cutting the tongues out of shoes and sawing the handles off of toothbrushes. But I will skip the toothbrush.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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here is another thing to do..
every time you go out, make a list of all that you have on a piece of paper. Take the paper with you, and check an item each time you use it....
...obviously, the next time you go out don't take items you didn't use or didn't use much. Keep doing this until you are out there and you really really need an item you didn't bring....
...then you're there.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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Well, I’ll do better than TELL ya what I would bring, I’ll SHOW ya!
Of course, everyone’s gonna be different, and have certain things that work for them. The best I can do is say what would work best for me, under the given circumstances.
I don’t ski, so this is what my kit would look like for a 3 day summit of the North Ridge of Conness (something I’m actually trying to find a partner for at this moment.)
The idea is that the CLIMB is more important than COMFORT. For instance, later this summer I am guiding my mom up the east face of whitney. I’ll be lugging my jumbo pack with all the comforts for that trip because I am doing it for funsies. This is going to be for fast and light!
This is it. Note that I have no ski or avy gear, as the time of year and the fact that I wouldn’t be skiing would play into. I agree with an above poster, that doing BOTH would drastically increase the amount of gear taken and decrease the success percentage.
First off, lets break down the top half. Check out those wacky hand drawn numbers!
1. Stratos gloves are both a shell and a fleece if you take the liner off. Done and done!
2. That gas can has a stove hidden underneath it (optimus crux). You see it? Yup! With aluminum you get a better heat transfer, so if you’re cooking more than two or thee times, you save the weight with the amount of fuel you don’t have to carry. it’s the only pot I havce that’s alum in that size, but the beauty is, a big empty pot can be filled with my runners, biners and cordalette!
3. The rack! Pretty light, a bunch of slings and hexes/nuts (light stuff), with a finger and hand sized cam. The hexes are oldies that I don’t feel heartbroken about bailing on, the cord is great for cutting up into rap tat and building fast belays.
4. Less than 2lb down bag in a compression sack. This is a 10 degree, its as light as my 32 degree synthetic, and with the compression bag takes up not much space.
5. My super skinny 50m rope is lent out at the moment, but this 30m 10.2mm is almost the exact same weight and similar in volume.
6. Socks. Gotta keep yer feet dry!
7. POLES. I got a pair of light ones, its worth the pound-something, especially in old snow and descents.
Not included, obviously, is stuff I’m wearing (Makalu boots, t shirt and R1 flash pullover, cap 2 bottoms and nylon/softshell pants).
Here is the bottom half:
8. Puffy coat. Synthetic, useful. Always keep handy for belays (west ridge should be simul climbed, so rare if any), and sleep in. If hot (10 degree bag, remember) makes for good pillow. Not much weight, heavier than down, but if my bag gets wet somehow, I can keep warm in an emergency.
9. Arcteryx S240 harness, light locker, lightest belay tube. it’s a sport harness, yes, but it’s as light as a swami (close to!). Also, I’m not layering, so I don’t need adjustable leg loops. I opt for a full on belay device instead of a Munter, easier for rappels. No daisy, tahts why you have a rope and slings for J
10. Crampons. Nice to have. These are kinda heavy. I could probably get away without em.
11. BD winter bivy. Good against some light snow and light rain, 8 ounces. Works decent.
12. Nalgenes are a waste of money. Here is 2L in recently used mountain dew bottles. Light, disposable, usable as piss bottles in a pinch. Extra fun that they are green bottles, impossible to tell a piss bottle from a water bottle. Hooray! (use a pen).
13. Puny axe for tough situations. Something like 360 grams. Just enough to get up and get down. The point is to go ROCK climbing!
14. Houdini shell. Gore-Tex / conduit / precip etc is overrated, and you storm inside your jacket. This thing is windproof, waterpoof, light, and I can work HARD in it without creating a sauna in my layeres.
15. Very light, very high loft fleece. Also those Synchillas by patagooch are a good ticket. Couple with a houdini zip and you’re golden.
Also headlamp, glasses, etc…
I am missing my grab bag of knife/batteries/spareGu/lighters/NuuN
Things I could use but would leave at home - Helmet, ballcap, coffee. If you used any of these I wouldn’t hold it against you and you’re probably doing the right thing :D
Stuffed this into a Khamsin 40 and had my 130lb brother put this on:
All told, according to my uber-geek excel spread sheet, 23.29 pounds on my back! According to bathroom scale, 27.5 pounds. Hrmmm… something needs calibration. According to manufacturers labels cheating you a bit of weight and stuff sacks being liars, probably close to 25 pounds in real life. Not bad, and a bit less than 65, especially for a grade III rock climb. Tally ho!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Vulva, Wyoming
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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A quick and easy way to shed some weight is to only bring one sock. Alternate as hot-spots develop.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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I know somewhere you could carry a spare, russ.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Vulva, Wyoming
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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RH Chilipepper style?
yowza! You alpinists are WACK!!!111666
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Ditch the booties. Replace that heavy, cold air mattress for a 3/4 ridge rest.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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This is awesome......
I've had an epiphany.
I need to ask what I want out of the trip, because in wanting it all I've often ended up with nothing.
These last few trips I've wanted the following....
1. Good proud route with good friends
2. Warmth (I'm kind of a sissy when I get real cold)
3. Safety (dad with kids)
4. A test of daring..........hard route for me but not too hard so we get spanked
5. Comfort at Basecamp (warm clothes, escape from the rain, good food and drink around the pocket rocket after the route)
6. Some nice turns on corn snow on the way home.
7. Just enough suffering to have a few stories back home
I like to suffer in short bits on shorter routes with day approaches but I've been taking a big expedition mentality to these Eastside routes. I gotta think ninja style like I do on trad routes near home just adding the survival gear into the mix. The "suffering" at camp will be better than suffering on the approach and never making the summy.
These need to be five day trips if we wanna carry all that gear to have that kinda experience. 2-3 days is too short for such luxury. I'm already planning to head back to Bear Creek Spire for a bit of suffering in the alpine crucible. I'm getting a new, smaller pack and a smaller sleeping bag.
Here's my new wish list.
1. Proud route with good friends
2. Strength and speed on the approach
3. Strength and speed on the route
4. Relative Safety (still a dad with kids)
5. The summit
6. Bring on the suffering
7. I'm still bringing the down booties.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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Leave the "10 essentials" at home;......
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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You got it!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Vulva, Wyoming
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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gdavis: damn! do they make a Dachstein for something 9 feet long? Maybe I'll ask Messner.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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Soak your approach sneakers in NikWax and leave the boots home.
Add gaitors and you can really stride up the snow fields before straping the crampons. Do it at 2am when the snow is rock rather than 2pm when its slush...
so what if the feet hurt..they'll be back in shape by the next weekend..hehe
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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What does a guy with a 12 incher have for breakfast?
well lets see, today I had eggs benedict with a side of ham...
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:01am PT
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I do use approach shoes, but not for when there's gonna be this much snow (april sierras). Waterproff, yeah, except for that big hole where your foot goes in :D haha. Some heavier gaiters might help, but I don't mind something big and clunky I can kick steps in. Worth the weight.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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GDavis. I'll hit Conness with you. When do you wanna go? I've had my eyes on that route for years. I'm still bringing two pairs of socks though.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Haha thats a good thought. Hows the snow looking? I have all the free time in the world... :D
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TKW
Trad climber
Currently Nomadic
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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Two Comments:
The Jetboil burner is grotesquely heavy, but the GCS pot is amazing. I ran some tests a while back and it appears to be more than twice as fuel efficient as a typical pot. ditch the burner, keep the pot, and save yourself the extra fuel canister.
Have you tried the jardine-style quilt (aka a sleeping bag with no insulation on the back? I made a sleeping bag like this a while back and have used it on probably 20+ sub-zero high sierra nights and have never been too cold. I combine this with a pad that goes shoulders to knees, and put my pack under my feet.
In other areas, it looks like you've got good recommendations. I have to say that the rack is one of the most important items - no sense trimming inches off your pad if you're bringing a 30 pound rack.
good luck!
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 03:08am PT
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Everything has been said, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth anyway;
smaller pack not only trims tendency to take too much, but you can cut 2 lbs just in empty pack weight. (plus lose the summit pack if you are taking one)
Don't double on anything; pad, clothes, food...
Personally my rule is the "golden mean"; not too light nor too heavy. 40 lbs to base should work and you still have a small tent and a warm enough sleeping bag. I hate cold nights and don't have any energy left in the wee morning to get going if I can't sleep well.
Shorten the rope for alpine (and thinner) 50 mtr works for me. Save a couple of lbs right there.
My neighbor is a ultralight backpacker freak. Spent all last winter making his own gear and weighing stuff. Took off on a 140 mile 7 day trip with the proverbial 12 lb (base - before food) pack. Second day out he ripped the lid off his homemade pack. A few days later spent the night in a meadow and got eaten alive by sketers. A few more days and the bottom of his feet were too bruised to walk due to thin soled light weight shoes. He ended up bailing. Now he treats my "golden mean" rule with more respect. hee hee
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Apr 21, 2009 - 03:22am PT
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The mentality of backpacking will increase your load.
If you are there to camp, to have a basecamp, to backpack, you will bring coffee, chairs, etc.
If you are there to climb you will find yourself wearing lighter shoes, lighter packs, going longer hours in the day and subsequently twice as many miles - more car-to-car trips in 30 hours. When you stop it will appear to some that you are just taking a drink on the side of the trail with your sleeping bag out. No 'setting up camp'.
You are there to enjoy being out, the movement of climbing, traveling over stone. When you hit the sack you are ready to sleep within minutes and it doesn't really matter where you are. You naturally use alpine starts (something done in the NW but I hardly saw in California)
Camping/cooking is something I do on backpacking trips where you are there to backpack. Sierra peakbagging I feel is different. A section of our sport that borrows as little from backpacking as possible and as much from crag approaches as possible.
Try choosing peaks this summer and give yourself 8 hours to approach, then turn around. Take nothing but the snacks you think you need, empty bottle to drink with along the way and use for summit pushes, a jacket and poles. See how far/comfortable you can get and then once you realize what life is like 60lbs lighter find a balance/partner that can help you push it a little farther and a little harder to make 12-16 hours your turn-around time. It's fun!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2009 - 10:44am PT
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the Chief is onto something there... the best way to reduce the total weight I'm hauling up the trail is to take it off my waist and butt...
I always consider that stuff to be "training weight" to be worked off in pursuit of some alpine goal... I like Viestur's response to the question "how do you get into shape?": "don't get out of it."
Alas, I am long past that sort of discipline...
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Ed, you are so very correct that extra weight needs to come off the body! I am dealing with an extra 20, so needless to say, makes carrying a large pack quite oppressive!
I've always enjoyed the description below on Norman Clyde (who obviously was in excellent shape)...
"Clyde spent many summers traveling about in the Sierra Nevada, bagging first ascents. He served as climbing leader at Sierra Club base camps where he became known as "the pack that walks like a man" because of the huge backpacks he carried. In addition to as many as five cameras, he carried a hammer and cobbler's anvil in order to make field repairs to client's boots."
A real "man's, man" !!!!!!!!!!!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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I posted this in some other thread, but I think it applies here pretty well.
As has been mentioned, good hydration and good warm sleep are really important, as is cutting the weight you're carrying. A simple trick that helps with all three is to fill your water bottle (not metal) with boiling water just before you sack out. Add whatever replenishment powder you like (Gatorade, etc), wrap the bottle up in something that will keep it from burning you, and put it down at the bottom of your sleeping bag.
This will keep you much warmer during the night, thereby allowing you to use a lighter sleeping bag and still get a good night's sleep. And when you wake up in the middle of the night you can camel up -- leaves you stronger for the next morning.
And one other thing that seems pretty simple, but which a lot of people don't do: When you wake up in the night with a full bladder, but it's really, really cold outside, there is a temptation to stay in your bag and try to sleep. Don't do this. No matter how cold/rainy/windy it is, you're far better off getting cold for a minute and then climbing back into your warm bag and sleeping soundly for the rest of the night than you are waking up sixteen more times and each time refusing to leave the bag. Some folks keep a pee bottle in the tent with them, and there are advantages and disadvantages to that.
D
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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I'd rather trim weight off my pack than get in better shape.
Can we please keep this thread to the point.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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on the Saskatchawan Glacier headed for Mt. Columbia for a couple of weeks, I recall these packs were in the neighborhood of 70 lbs
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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Chief, thats cheating! You can't claim an off-the-couch ascent if you train!
Haha, yup training is the most fun, and by most fun, I mean least fun. I used to head out to a climbing gym and run on trails and hike some local hills and crap, but now I just train jiu jitsu. Its harder, better on my knees and a lot more fun.
Used to run cross country, and I learned something a long time ago. If I don't ENJOY the training, I won't DO it. I won't run on a treadmill, I won't sit in a gym cranking pull-ups. Maybe If I did things by the book I would be in better 'climbing' shape, but heck this is close enough, and I actually DO it.
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Between Tuscano and Liguria, Italia
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Apr 21, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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Ahhh yes, another example of how the euros have it right and we are kidding ourselves into the old "I walked to school in snow uphill both ways to get to a climb" routine.
Here is your list of priorities:
1. Proud route with good friends
You will have not probs hooking up with partners in Europe - the standard workweek is mandated at 37.5 hours per week and there are heeps of vacation associated with every job (at least a month per year - normally six weeks)
2. Strength and speed on the approach
Speed is easy - get in line for about 2 minutes, sit on tram while laying daypack next to you, get off and walk between 10mins and 2 hours to the hut
3. Strength and speed on the route
Dude... everything is bolted that you would want to climb - unless you specficically want to show how much of a man u are by climbing routes and placing gear - in which case, you can likely bag a first ascent.
4. Relative Safety (still a dad with kids)
See discussion on bolting in number 3. Also, realize that when the sh#t does hit the fan, the helo is only a 118 dial and 10 mins away.
5. The summit
How high do you want to go?
6. Bring on the suffering
ahhhh... why?
7. I'm still bringing the down booties.
Right on, but the huts are warm and the food is fantastic!
If you are able to climb in teh alps, you will likely re-vamp your style. I always found that light is better and getting up early is the way to go. Nothign in the Sierra requires multi day excursions. You can get up at the but crack of dawn and jog in with an alpine rack and get your groove on. This way, you are out and in the hot springs with a beer by the time it is dark.
If you want to camp and climb go to Alabama hills. If you want to backpack, then backpack. If you want to ski tour and only have a weekend, you can do what you would do wiht all the overnight bullshit in a long day with a daypack and then have a day to crag.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 21, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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Forget lightweight packs, try one of these...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Apr 21, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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Seems like everyone is pretty much saying the same thing, which is easily summed up as: Next time you're headed out to the BC, rather than pack up, sack up!
lol sorry, couldn't resist.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Apr 21, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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Climbing Bear Creek Spire makes some packs weigh less, others
weigh more.
Booty gear left (by rookies or just heinous conditions?)
at the BCS summit. Last time I collected a #2 camalot and a #12 wire stopper both with new slings used to rap.
Seem to remember others have found stuff up there.
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NFB
Mountain climber
SLC UT
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May 13, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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Micro,
I've got a personal rule about alpine trips in to the tetons, if crampons are going, the load will be heavy. Crampons inevitably mean an axe, rope, and some rack.
I've spent lots of money over the years to upgrade individual parts of the alpine mix to be light overall, one big thing, ditch the tele gear.
Dynafit binders, AT boots (superior mountaineering boots to Tele), lighter skiis, carbon fiber poles will save you 5 to 8 pounds. Also, get a super-light 32 degree sleeping bag and supplement it with a synthetic parka/belay coat to wrap around your feet and legs. Mammut makes a great one.
Learn to climb with less rack, risk lighter ropes. you should not be falling on alpine routes anyway. Old School. I bet Paul Petzoldt, Art Gilkey, Royal Robbins, Fred Beckey... carried super light packs and I know they sent with junk ropes. Check Petzoldts ascent times for big alpine routes. Car-to summit shots aroud 8 hours on Owen... This was in the 40s and 50s before they had all the cool new tecchie stuff. Throw out excess stuff, suck up some discomfort. It is good training and will make you appreciate home more.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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I'm fully stoked to put this advice to the test. A buddy of mine is headed to Shasta this weekend with a 37lb pack for 3 days based on the intel in this thread.
Blue, that ad is awesome.
But I'm never gettin rid of my teles.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 13, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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I was going to suggest just having it air-dropped in. :-)
The funny thing about Ed's list idea is:
When you find out you didn't use certain nut sizes, and a couple
cams, next time your rack will be lighter. After a few iterations
of that, you'll look at a climb, decide you don't have the right
gear.
On your return, all gear will then be crossed off the list, for a
huge weight saving. No harness, no axes, no ropes, ...
It all adds up!
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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May 13, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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Don't worry about a heavy pack you just need to train and I know a good place that will help you out in that dept....
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perswig
climber
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May 13, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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^^
Ruck and kevlar never bothered me. The freakin helmet, however,...bit the big one.
Dale
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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May 13, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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Get a real helo...Mil-8 "Hip" (NATO call)
5000 lb load capacity and 16000' service ceiling!
We had 4 live sheep in there for some gud eatin'! Don't even start with the sheep jokes, ya hear?
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Yvergenhauf
Gym climber
UT
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May 13, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Don't feel too bad. I did the north arete of Bear Cresk Spire in May '00. Brought in ski gear ( hourglass couloir) along with climbing gear and camping gear, food & all the rest. My pack was so heavy my climbing partner had to help me get it onto my back. Once it was on my shoulders I could walk (slowly). Turned out to be a great trip but I'll never bring ski gear, climbing gear, and camping gear on one trip again.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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May 13, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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perswig,
I hated that helmet it's just so bulky and hot...
I always got a huge head ache...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 13, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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Josh, awesome....
I bet you the first time a round a round ricochet's of that engineered helmet, you praised it.
Kinda like climbing, keep your lid on, even if it's uncomfortable, it's there for a reason!
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WhyCantGerbalsDrive
climber
Lee Vining, CA
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May 14, 2009 - 10:15am PT
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try buying a scale one that uses grams
see how much wieght you can save if you just go buy all new sh#t
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 14, 2009 - 11:13am PT
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If you have a problem with excess crap, the best place and time to deal with it is at the end of the trip. Move the stuff that really didn't need to go off to the side and make a note to leave it behind in the future.
Less is more in the outdoors...try to leave home at home!
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