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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
That's just it: people are dying and killing for metaphors all over the world.

Okay, perhaps there is some miscom here then.

Point blank: Do you agree that amongst many demographics around the country and world the stories are taken literally, to the letter, and not metaphorically (except for the obvious allegory and such)?

Yes? No? Simple answer, please.

.....

Of course what we can hope for - esp in those regions where they are killing each other over the iron-age stories they grew up with that they tell each other to give their lives meaning - is that the literal more and more gives way to the metaphorical (interpretation) as civilization advances.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Of course. That's the pathetic point.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
The failure of religion in a general sense is to misinterpret metaphor as history.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Yay. Consensus.

Yes, in this context: Utter tragedy.

.....

Paul,

This issue is a real one though. In this piece I just referenced by Leon Weisteltier, he himself is an example - perhaps from living too much in an ivory tower I don't know - who believes only a scant per cent (of backwater ignorant folk) take the bible stories literally.

Here it is, verbatim,
"Only a small minority of believers in any of the scriptural religions, for example, have ever taken scripture literally."

This is just dead wrong. This man's got to get out and experience the world. Or something.

Indeed, our own resident Jan has expressed same or similar on occasion.

Utter nonsense.

Of course it could also be strategy, some sort of shuck and jive strategy, played by some, to influence or persuade the remaining old-world literalist along a more compassionate and charitable path (hoping they might eventually "get it" on their own). Who knows, really. But as it stands, it's dead wrong on the face of it.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Ward, not Ralph Ellison's The Invisible Man where the protagonist is an invisible African American (post Harlem Renaissance), right?

Correct. Ellison's book was titled " Invisible Man" without "The"

Well's novella, from which the movie was adapted , was titled The Invisible Man

LOL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
http://www.thegoddamnapocalypse.com/

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
That's just it: people are dying and killing for metaphors all over the world.

Hear that, go-B? Blu? Splitter? Illusiondweller?

Hear that Muhammad, Said, Makmoud? Hamza? Abbas? Get on with your Reformation and Renaissance, your own 30-years war, whatever.

Upgrade!

Then maybe the whole world can then get on to the other problems of civilization it faces now, or is soon to face. Once and for all, it's time to get the God of Abraham out of the problem solving. Just a suggestion. ;)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
I replied to a thread at this sight that elicited crazy predictions.
It was actually concocted from a rough story idea .
There is room for a revival of the humanities , somewhere as part of the new nation founded in the wake of the resource wars of the 2030s.
This revival is spearheaded by a descendant of Sullly's :


Aug 3, 2013 - 10:22am PT
I predict that by the 2020s we will see the first supercomputers designing new generations of supercomputers, with material innovations now on the horizon. The first credible android/ cyborgs will start to emerge , designed and built by other computers.

In the 2030s regional resource wars will break out, culminating in some sort of hideous conflict by 2035 in which nuclear weapons will be used on a somewhat large scale, resulting in the subsequent death of millions of people , largely by radioactive contamination of the environment and food chain .

The 2040s will be a period of recovery from these hideous wars and environmental devastation.
A new nation will be founded attracting growing numbers of disaffected people who seek to escape what they consider the folly of a world based upon the runaway excesses of technology.d
The world essentially will be divided between these two camps-- the 'naturals ' who favor a restricted and highly controlled technological society and the 'techs ' who favor no restrictions on technological growth.

In the early 2050s supercomputers will become so advanced that they will start to exhibit strong independent and autonomous characteristics . These highly advanced "supers "collectively develop a meta-program so awesomely powerful that it links every computer on earth and begins to solve problems with absolutely astounding solutions, at ever- increasing incredible speed. The cures for almost all human disease, like cancer, are finally realized, as well as a reversal of the radioactive genetic damage from the wars of the 2030s..
These computers ,having been built and designed by other computers, will consist almost entirely of different materials and components from the puny ones we have today.

By the 2060s the meta-program , which is not located in any one specific locale, has grown so powerful and omnipresent that it has designed and controls every aspect of collective human life, from food production, resource extraction, manufacturing, and environmental regulation and management. Computers do everything.

By 2070 the meta-program has decided that humans , at a population of 14 billion, represent a continuing threat to the integrity of the planet and to an ever growing legion of Artificial Intelligences.
The meta-program therefore designs a highly specialized group of viruses that can kill a person within an hour and subsequently massively dehydrate the corpse in another hour. Humans go from apparent health to a pile of dust in 2 hours.

The meta-program decides to eliminate 98% of the human race...
The year: 2072.

(I could be off by a year or two on that.)


Edit

Now. Doesn't that sound more appealing than a future world of techno-cannibal social media ants with Miley Cyrus as the queen bee?
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
utilitarian hard-on
. = Science as God


Susan
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
whenever someone says or acts as though they have an excluisive on the truth, run for the hills.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 10, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
But the US currently has a utilitarian hard-on.

nothing current about it, sullly, as you know from your reading of Alexis de Tocqueville, in fact, that's the way the US has always rolled, until the situation in Europe in the 1930's caused a dispersal of the intellectual and artistic to the corners of the world, one of those corners being the US... which they enriched...

...but now we're back to the way things were before. Practical.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
This just in... the great Dan Dennett weighs in, lol... on the recent Pinker-Wieseltier (science vs humanities) dustup...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-dennett/post_5592_b_3901577.html

Yeah, I'm probably the only one following this but I post anyway as part of my own journey and journal of thought.

Also Jerry Coyne offered up his thoughts, as well...

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/leon-wieseltier-attacks-pinker-for-scientism/

Now we just need Neil deGrasse Tyson for the tri-fecta. ;)

Poor, poor Leon.

.....

OMG!!!!

And now Steven Pinker just tweeted...

My own reply to Leon Wieseltier should appear in The New Republic on-line shortly.

Talk about exciting! :)
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 10, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Yeah, I'm probably the only one following this but I post anyway as part of my own journey and journal of thought.

No HFC ... Since you posted it awhile back I've gotten caught up with the "he said, he said, he said". Always been a Pinker fan, so thanks for that link...didn't know about it!

Susan
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Susan,
Always been a Pinker fan...

Well, that's neat! :)

.....

"The third culture consists of those scientists and other thinkers in the empirical world who, through their work and expository writing, are taking the place of the traditional intellectual in rendering visible the deeper meanings of our lives, redefining who and what we are."

John Brockman
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 11, 2013 - 01:14am PT
Alright, I'll add a contribution to this quotesfest...
Postmodernism, the school of "thought" that proclaimed "There are no truths, only interpretations" has largely played itself out in absurdity, but it has left behind a generation of academics in the humanities disabled by their distrust of the very idea of truth and their disrespect for evidence, settling for "conversations" in which nobody is wrong and nothing can be confirmed, only asserted with whatever style you can muster.

Daniel Dennett

O this one's really good...
"Those [philosophers, pro or amateur] who want to be taken seriously when they launch inquiries about such central philosophical topics as morality, free will, consciousness, meaning, causality, time and space had better know quite a lot that we have learned in recent decades about these topics from a variety of sciences.

Unfortunately, many in the humanities [not to mention the climbing world, lol] think that they can continue to address these matters the old-fashioned way, as armchair theorists in complacent ignorance of new developments.

You can't defend the humanities by declaring it off limits to amateurs. The best way for the humanities to get back their mojo is to learn from the invaders and re-acquire the respect for truth that they used to share with the sciences.

Daniel Dennett
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:01am PT
Postmodernism, deconstruction, poststructuralism and late 20th c. French philosophy in general are nothing more than the logical conclusion of modernism in which it turns desperately on itself in order to demonstrate a continued "modernist" "progress."

Postmodernism is the celebration of an undermining critique predicated on the discovery of irony and hypocrisy in any hegemony and is used primarily as a device for political critique.

The problem is that political thought is ultimately meaningless in the face of what is grave and constant in human experience. And those grave and constant experiences require the reconciliation of religious, spiritual or aesthetic experience.

Political critique addresses only those elements of social concern and these are ephemeral, transitory and momentary: your politics will not prevent your eventual death. Post modernism does not address the terrible realities and mystery of our mortality and the infinite nature of our context.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out as the the baby boom generation realizes that political equality, peace and justice among men will not mediate our mortality.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:17am PT
Hey, just watched the Twilight Zone episode, "The Lonely," that Largo referenced a couple pages back. Not bad for 1959!

Here's Alicia...

I want one. :)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:25am PT
Think I was ten when I saw that episode, the debut. I was traumatized so badly I couldn't sleep for ten years and eventually took up climbing.
MH2

climber
Sep 11, 2013 - 11:25am PT
But it's not too late to acquit yourself by leaving off with the forked-tongue reversals, take your own self seriously for a moment (it won't kill you), and say something, anything about your life, your ideas, your experience, your beliefs, lest we might think you are sans self, while mistaking yourself for a mirror.


I like oatmeal.


As for the rest of it, there are a few posts of mine on the site that might help you out, and if you were interested in that stuff you would not need to ask.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 11, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Susan,
Always been a Pinker fan...

Well, that's neat! :)

Well HFC...went and read the Pinker/Weisepeltier point/counterpoint. Reminded me of why I'm glad I'm retired and away from academia. My brain just doesn't work that way anymore. I "got it" but it just didn't wow me like it would have in days past. Hardening of the dendrites, I suspect. So back to my regular scheduled lurking on this thread...it's like sitting in the Coliseum...love it! Yeah the Lions, Yeah the Christians, Yeah everybody else too!

Susan
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