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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^ I haven't said anything to be self promoting.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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And as far as computers. An automotive assembly line isn't what's referred to as "reproductive"
It's ok blooey. I didn't expect you to grasp the more philosophical aspects of the argument. Let's step it down a level and give us the definition of "reproductive" if you're game.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I'm calling you out on this. People thrown that argument out there all the time and it is not supported by any empirical evidence save that if you screw with the meat brain - shoot it, pour whiskey on it, drug it, introduce pathologies - that our perception is directly effected.
Why do you think you have been assigned that seat in the corner, dude? To gather the empirical evidence your own self, rather than to take some one's word for it, or read a print out of it off a machine.
I trust you are used to taking people's temp's and quantifying body functions so it makes sense to consider perception as a strictly physical phenomenon. But all of this thinking takes place in your experiential, subjective bubble. No one else experiences your ideas that your perception is solely the result of meat brain output, and that the meat brain "creates" perception nuts to bolts. That's how a physicalist/mechanical model sees the world. But as we've seen, a machine and consciousness are not the same.
But lest yo go into the corner, you will never realize as much just as a machine can never detect sentience. Sentience can encompass both material and experience. A machine can only handle material.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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just as a machine can never detect sentience. Sentience can encompass both material and experience. A machine can only handle material.
You state this as matter of factly as Haggee states the existence of Satan.
This is what your 10k hours and pages boil down to.
For the record, I think you're dead wrong.
To be precise (as aforementioned quote is a bit loose), the opposing claim: Sentience is a function of brain circuitry.
But at least we know what it boils down to and where the two sides stand.
Yep.
.....
re: Source of mind (including ideation, sentience, intention, etc.)
The issue is so deep (in relation to current knowledge, science) and the implications so severe, beliefs will turn on it one way or the other for a long time to come.
HFCS-Wozniak-Hawkins Law - The greater Circuitry Analysis and Design experience and the greater Systems Control Engineering experience in conjunction with General Biology and Neuro Biology experience, the more compelling the mind-brain model of consciousness (incl first person subjective sentience) becomes.
Now how much CAD and SCE experience does the general public have under its belt? I think this question is relevant and I think the answer to it explains why there is so much "intellectual" conflict... Over consciousness (the source of it) and on up, to beliefs in general regarding "ultimate concerns."
And, in particular, for here:
How much CAD and SCE experience does JL have under his belt?
Any more than go-B or Blu? Any more than Klimmer? Any more than the Bananaman (Ray Comfort)?
So I don't ask Why but Why not: Why would JL, like so many others, not find the claim that 'Thoughts and feelings are what brain does' incredible? -When even electrical engineers (with hundreds of hours of circuitry analysis and design under their belt) turned neuroscientists still find this "brain magic" incredible.
Alright, I'm done. ;)
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Why would JL, like so many others, not find the claim that Thoughts and feelings are what brain does' incredible?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Fruity, now you are in my wheelhouse.
First, kindly list any machine that was not man-made, and that was not conceived by a sentient being - namely a human.
It follows incontrovertibly that no machine can be understood sans the sentience that conceived it. In other words, there are no such things as machines that came into existence separate from sentience.
A sentient being operating a machine or reading the output of a machine can interpret the data and surmise that this and that physical marker is connected to sentience in some way, big or small, but the machine itself cannot mechanically surmise that there is present in the evaluated thing a phenomenon such as human experience because a machine can only evaluate, correlate, and produce data streams. And data streams, while being part of our cognitive world, they are not sentience that observes them nor yet the flow of subjective experience in which the data arises. The argument against this is that we don't need to reify what Ward refers to as "so-called subjective" existence since we can just use a mechanical model to show how content arises, at least theoretically. This is the common mistake of confusing sentience with content or info processing.
What you and others in the AI camp are trying to do is to reduce sentience to a kind data processing that can be replicated mechanically, when that is merely content, not self awareness. The wonky default renders such howlers as, "self awareness is what the mechanical brain does." As mentioned, this is as daft and unacceptable as saying a landslide is what gravity does, then saying we don't need to reify gravity as a real thing since we can get all we need from the tumbling rocks.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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any machine
The Kreb Cycle.
Photsynthesis.
Glycolysis.
Electron Chain Transport.
Replication.
Transcription.
Translation.
Stop thinking in terms of worm gears and pulleys that you can see with the naked eye, for starters.
Also, start thinking in terms of so-called signal transduction (between cells and tissues) and their supporting micro-machinery of life.
I'm late for my workout.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The Kreb Cycle.
Photsynthesis.
Glycolysis.
Electron Chain Transport.
Replication.
Transcription.
Translation.
Stop thinking in terms of worm gears and pulleys that you can see with the naked eye, for starters.
-
These are bio functions that we can observe as having certain mechanical processes. A machine, as every schoolboy knows, is something else. What's more, none of those processes you mentioned have the capacity to detect and explain sentience, which is what the discussion is about.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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I can't believe that a troll thread from 4 years ago has garnered over 1200 posts in the past month. Most of which have nothing to do with why does everyone hate Christianity so much?
it seems to be more of a belief contest at this point, if there even is a point.
Trolled, in every sense of the term you all have been, chasing your tails in circles & wasting thousands of words upon an audience of deaf ears. Trolled by each other, Christian Jesus, science, & new age thinking. Hilarious.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Largo wrote,
A machine, as every schoolboy knows, is something else.
No, no, no.
Each of these processes have their supporting micro "machinery" of life.
A bacterium should be easily conceived as a micro-machine. In part and in whole. Can you do that?
If you were a King, I'd say to you... There is no royal road, your Majesty, to consciousness and sentience. There is a process. You have to take it in baby steps.
Signal transduction throughout the cell and the living body is a control system process. The only way it works is by way of its underlying micro machinery.
Get out your microscope and books and go sit for awhile in that corner you're always talking about. Wiki, btw, doesn't cut it. ;)
.....
chasing your tails in circles & wasting thousands of words upon an audience of deaf ears
O Wise One,
you know everyone's goals here? perhaps they are not yours, lol!
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WBraun
climber
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Oh go away ya losers and pussies...
You've been trolled, pawned and owned yourself by posting to this stupid thread.
The whole forum is full of stupid threads and trolls.
It's all entertainment ......
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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You've been trolled, pawned and owned yourself by posting to this stupid thread.
And yet here you are...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Skeptimistic
Hehe... yes that's the nature of WBraun... stupid to the bone...
Myself, I will not write anything more ... on this thread, today ...
I'm not stupid...
Lol...
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Largo- Have you read "The Selfish Gene?" Perhaps the "machinery" is really what is driving reproduction and evolution, not the functional organism that transports it..
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I have no idea where yhou wandered off to in your thinking, Frunty. My point was that mechanical investigations beget mechanical processes, not sentience. You mentioned a royal road to sentience, the belief being it is simple mechanical output of the meat brain.
Kindly tell us at what point in the "process" or along the royal road is sentience sucddenly "created" by the mechanical processes you reference?
Also, Bryan raisd some interesting points:
"Why do you assume that when a carbon/nitrogen/oxygen based brain sends electrical signals across itself that it creates "consciousness," but when a silicon/copper/silver based computer chip does more or less the same thing, it doesn't result in consciousness?"
I, personally, don't assume that anythig n"creates" consciousness.
More Bryan:
'"Life" in the biological sense, is only necessary for consciousness insofar as the neurons in our brains have to be alive to work properly. A computer doesn't require cellular metabolism to function, so the fact that it's inorganic shouldn't exempt it from experiencing consciousness."'
If, in fact, consciousness can be explained and replicated entirely as a mechanical process. Then we'll have computers in love, as that one whacko snake oil salesman promised "by 2020."
JL
JL
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dirtbag
climber
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Werner nails it. Damnit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Largo wrote,
If, in fact, consciousness can be explained and replicated entirely as a mechanical process. Then we'll have computers in love
See, this is the caricature.
Not one researcher (neuroscientist, analytical bioengineer, e.g., or cognitive scientist) in a thousand is cocky enough to say this. But this IS the caricature, and today once again it is yours.
Every serious researcher or scientist (amateur or pro) in the field realizes design by evolution (over millions of generations) is altogether different than design by human engineering. In that difference is where the Grand Mystery lies.
I only wish you could... stretch enough or whatever... to appreciate these points.
The Grand Mystery which you caricature... otherwise the Brain Magic which you disparage... is an extraordinary thing that's drawn, and continues to draw, thousands of bright serious students to study it. Maybe someday "consciousness" as a set of brain circuit functions will be figured out. Then again maybe in its fullness it won't. But an important understanding for now, here at the start of the 21st century, and one that I am satisfied with, is that lines and lines of evidence across many and various sciences all in a convergent pattern point to "mental life" as brain function.
Imo, you grossly underestimate the power of circuitry and signal transduction in a system designed not by human engineering but by evolution and natural selection over millions of years and generations.
If you haven't read Selfish Gene, I think it would be worth your while. On one hand, you show a passion; yet on the other hand, somehow you don't. It's weird.
Or it's entertainment. ;)
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WBraun
climber
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Maybe someday "consciousness" as a set of brain circuit functions will be figured out.
Where have you been.
Sleeping of course for the last trillion years.
Since day one consciousness has been understood and revealed.
Only now in the stupid century of knuckle headed lab coats who forgot how to use their brains do they make ridiculous stupid statements like yours.
Your dumb machines will never figure out intelligence.
Life comes from life and intelligence comes from intelligence.
Modern lab coats come from pond scum with no intelligence ......
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