Discussion Topic |
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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"sweet fuking ba jeebus.."
Locker, what is that supposed to mean?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Locker is upset.
He lost a dear friend and people are crawling up his butt holding forth all sorts of flimsy rationales for satisfying their morbid curiosity.
Good thing this is cyberspace.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Well maybe they can move all the arguing and shouting out of the other thread...
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Mimi
climber
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You obviously didn't read the other thread. It was a discussion, not arguing and shouting. Just delete this thing and quit being a ghoul.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Locker doesn't want this brought up yet. Something about a schedule that is not ours and morbid curiosity.
"Good thing this is cyberspace." LOL!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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"You obviously didn't read the other thread. It was a discussion, not arguing and shouting. Just delete this thing and quit being a ghoul."
Mimi, I did read it and while there is discussion, there is also arguing and shouting. But if it please you, you can call it a discussion. However you want to characterize it, I believe that the ...discussion shouldn't be on the memorial thread. I think it should be somewhere else or not at all. Mimi, explain why that is "being a ghoul?"
This thread is an attempt to create a lightening rod to prevent more ugliness in the memorial thread. I don't know whether it is working but it has become a striking point for anger and ugliness.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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I Dunno, if all the speculation comes over here and doesn't get in that other thread, then we can just ignore it.
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Mimi
climber
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How many different ways do you need to see that the people involved will post about the accident when they're ready? Who are you to start this thread? Therefore, knowing what you know about this story, and persisting in defying these people's wishes, makes you a ghoul in my book. This isn't about closure either, it's curiosity.
BTW, that wasn't specifically a memorial thread; it has just about everything in it.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Why all the secrecy?
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Mimi
climber
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Jaybro, who am us anyway?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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we already be there.
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Mimi
climber
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Gotta move it though, the railroad's a'comin.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Are we all knott morbid vultures?
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Such vitriol and anger - I am astounded.
For what it is worth, I used to conduct forensic investigations into employee accidents and even a few deaths for a previous employer. Needless to say, I experienced first-hand the trauma that close friends and associates endured as the result of the accident.
Nonetheless, we also had an obligation to the rest of our people to get an analysis completed and published within 10 days of the event.
Not so we could be "ghouls" - but so we could examine the why and what could others do to avoid a similar fate. Even if is was caused by a lapse of attention versus an equipment failure - that was equally important to get out to the troops so that they had another vivid reminder of how tenuous their own safety could be.
It is telling to me in a detached way that there is so much resistance to having the forensics published and discussed. Whenever I have encountered such resistance in the past, it usually comes down to well-meaning but short-sighted "survivors" trying to avoid facing the truth about the cause of the accident.
Well-meaning in that they felt they were "protecting" their friend who had made a fatal mistake, but short-sighted in that they deny helping others avoid a similar fate.
Our informal motto was "Truth hurts, but lying kills".
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Mimi
climber
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There's still a chance that the grassy knoll figures into this.
The facts are known to those that need to know. Are people on this silly forum on a need to know basis?
Obviously, nothing new or mysterious happened here. So what's the rush? What's the harm of a respectful delay?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Civilization, hoh!
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Back before the computer age, we would *know* what the paper printed (made up?), we'd hear a thing or two in the parking lot, and then we would wait until the end of the year for ANAM.
But because it happened in Joshua Tree it wouldn't make it into ANAM.
And a few months down the road there would be an obituary in the Climbing Rags.
The days before computers weren't that long ago.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Yes, the internet has been quite the facilitator to those with OCD. Seems to be a high prevalence amongst climbers.
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Mimi
climber
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One shining steel rail...
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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"The facts are known to those that need to know. Are people on this silly forum on a need to know basis?
Obviously, nothing new or mysterious happened here. So what's the rush? What's the harm of a respectful delay?"
__
The rush you ask?
How about the concept that the information garnered from one accident might just prevent another from occurring?
You might be surprised to realize that more people "lurk" on a forum than actually post. In other words - the audience for potentially life-saving information is much much greater than you give credit.
I find it amazing that of all of the potentially fatal sports I have been involved with - rock climbing stands alone in it's resistance to sharing information that could protect others.
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that there are no requirements for certification in the sport - you simply go shopping at REI and away you go.
In comparison, both SCUBA and sky diving require certified training to even enter into the sport along with recurring safety programs that do disclose accidents whatever their cause.
Let's take sky diving as an example - the drop zone S&TA Officer conducts an investigation with all witnesses immediately upon an accident occurring. A report is drafted to the USPA with 3 days and is published online within similar days and in hardcopy within a month. This information goes out to ALL jumpers - not just the close friends. A well run drop zone then has their S&TA (Safety and Training Adviser) review all accidents with the local jumpers at least once a year on Safety Day.
At no time does anyone criticize the process as being ghoulish or uncaring - rather, they look at it a chance to prevent a similar accident from occurring. Just as a jumper practices cut-away and pin-check of their gear every time they jump - they also practice a mental checklist of "what-ifs" based on the stories of those who did not do so.
What is it about this process that disturbs you so?
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Mimi
climber
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I'm a trained scientist, jerk. People like you disturb me. My father used to describe autopsies at dinner. As Chris2 stated so well on the other thread:
Accident analysis is valuable so that such accidents do not occur in the future. If there is no immediate danger, there is no need for immediate analysis.
As the individuals that are aware of the accident are experienced, people should feel confident that these individuals see no need for immediate analysis, and respect those opinions.
This is not only true to rockclimbing but all types of situations where someone has been injured or died.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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let me hear it for me
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WBraun
climber
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The locker has self proclaimed himself as "the" moderator .....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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For God's sake, just tell us WTF happened already...
There. I said it.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Mimi - I was only attempting to inject a modicum of adult discussion into this topic and in no way wish to disparage the departed.
I sense that you are beyond rational discussion on this topic and will cease to participate at this time.
Have a nice day.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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I would like to state for the record that if I ever die climbing or in some other activity,
please let it be known exactly what happened AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, regardless of
how embarrassing the circumstances are. We are all human, and I'm damn lucky I'm
knott already dead. I'm the last person on Earth who would want the info withheld.
Dave Buchanan aka Hardman Knott, April 4th, 2009
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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"and will cease to participate at this time"
...which is exactly what Mimi intended.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Locker wrote:
"SUTPID" comes to mind...
Sutpid is as Sutpid does...
Edit: Laugh all you want, Locker, but I am 100% sincere, and it is knott a joke.
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Mimi
climber
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Nothing but foolpids will do around here!
RD, an arbiter of reason, are you?
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chuey
climber
Ca.
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According to newspaper articles, which are all most of us have to go by:
"Mr. Stark was the lead climber and was followed by Alfred Kwok. Mr. Stark, who was not wearing a helmet, experienced some difficulty with his climb and began to descend, the news release said. His equipment, including bolts and clips designed to halt a fall, failed, and he struck Kwok on the way down. Kwok also fell, but his equipment stopped his fall."
His equipment, including bolts and clips designed to halt a fall, failed
Bolts failed??
And we are expected to not be interested?? WTF?
If the articles are wrong, then tell us what really happened.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Whenever ya'll get around to posting the Accident report. Post it on another thread and nuke this one. Too late for this one I'm afraid
Peace
Karl
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Mimi
climber
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fooey, why can't you accept that the articles are inaccurate and leave it at that? Are you that afraid that something you are currently doing in an unsafe manner will eventually get you killed?
Baba edit: was this a good hijack or what? I was disappointed that the Firesign Theater stuff didn't take off more.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Have you guys been outside today?
OMG ! it is absolutely gorgeous !
I can have fun pulling weeds in this weather. Wish I had time to climb, but with Spring break coming, we get to close the biz and enjoy 14 days playing in the sunshine !!!
Go outside and check it out. Beautiful I tell ya !!
edit:
in SoCal anyhow...: )
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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could someone draw a 4-box comic strip of this accident for the
non-emotionally impaired supertopo readers.
Something simple like stick figures drawn onto the climbing topo of the route would serve to enlighten...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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quote;The rush you ask?
How about the concept that the information garnered from one accident might just prevent another from occurring?
You might be surprised to realize that more people "lurk" on a forum than actually post. In other words - the audience for potentially life-saving information is much much greater than you give credit.
I find it amazing that of all of the potentially fatal sports I have been involved with - rock climbing stands alone in it's resistance to sharing information that could protect others.
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that there are no requirements for certification in the sport - you simply go shopping at REI and away you go.
In comparison, both SCUBA and sky diving require certified training to even enter into the sport along with recurring safety programs that do disclose accidents whatever their cause.
Let's take sky diving as an example - the drop zone S&TA Officer conducts an investigation with all witnesses immediately upon an accident occurring. A report is drafted to the USPA with 3 days and is published online within similar days and in hardcopy within a month. This information goes out to ALL jumpers - not just the close friends. A well run drop zone then has their S&TA (Safety and Training Adviser) review all accidents with the local jumpers at least once a year on Safety Day.
At no time does anyone criticize the process as being ghoulish or uncaring - rather, they look at it a chance to prevent a similar accident from occurring. Just as a jumper practices cut-away and pin-check of their gear every time they jump - they also practice a mental checklist of "what-ifs" based on the stories of those who did not do so.
What is it about this process that disturbs you so? end quote;
this seems fairly reasonable. the response is to call this guy a jerk??
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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i think locker's post's have made it clear what the lesson to be learned is.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Still, tradmanclimbs makes a good point.
In a similar discussion with me Malcolm made the observation that there was no choke point at which to implement certification.
But I think it is coming (along with licenses and mandatory insurance).
Just the way of things.
But people will always mess up.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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certification and regulation is irrelevant in this case.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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I've been reading these accident threads for years. This has got to be the first I've seen where people specifically didn't want to allow an internet documentation/discussion about the causes of an accident. At least the first I've noticed since these are generally hard to read from beginning to end. It seems as if most people want to discuss something regardless of the topic, until it somehow involves them. At that point it's suddenly not okay for others to partake in a discussion and somehow offensive.
Would locker or Mimi give a damn if this were someone else's accident, perhaps a stranger? Probably not which makes their opinion so biased as to be completely ignorable. The "jerk" comment to a perfectly rational suggestion tells me that someone is in a bad emotional place and feels that censoring others free speak, on the grounds that it's just not appropriate, is now acceptable and even desirable.
I don't particularly care about this specific accident (no offense intended) but I do care a tiny bit when I see such pushy behavior being put forth to squelch the transfer of information in a free society. So let's hear the analysis. If someone doesn't want to read it or supply their input, they can simply leave so as not to be offended. No one is making Mimi or locker, or anyone else, read this.
Dave
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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"No one is making Mimi or locker, or anyone else, read this."
I believe their interest has to do with caring about others.
Bill
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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The reason the demands for a report are so difficult is that we're not talking about demands made upon the cops, or the nps or frickin yosar.
the folks involved are largely woody's friends and partners, none of them, from what i can see, accustomed to losing close friends to sudden accidents nor professionally trained leo or sar. moreover all of them, even locker, appear to be working at full-time jobs in addition to trying to cope with the personal loss. writing a sound accident report that balances the accounts of the various eyewitnesses and responders is not that easy under good circumstances.
what they've told us so far is that the situation involved nothing that would create imminent danger to climbers currently in the park; and that they will eventually say something. the publication of the official nps report will create its own deadline-- i can't imagine eyewitnesses will refrain from contributing if the nps report were to turn out to be erroneous or lacking in useful detail.
think back to a different incident. a few weeks ago, someone went over the falls in the ditch. everyone immediately wanted to know the details-- what happened, how, the body, etc. etc.
werner, wisely and professionally, declined to hand out that beta over the internet. we're trusting his judgment that there isn't anything there that present us with imminent danger, even though lots of us wander round the upper falls from time to time.
the constant demands for immediate detail add to the burden of those who are close family and friends or even victims. i don't see what difference a few more weeks could possibly make. anyone who has a burning desire to work out what happened, can read what's already been posted and then go through the guidebook and arrive at the likeliest scenario. if that's not enough to hold you for a few weeks, or if you're incapable or that level of inferential judgment, then whine away.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Rectorsquid - back off, you vulture!!!!!!!!!!1111
It's best to keep this swept under the rug...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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No One is asking Locker or his friends for any info. If they wanted to act with dignity they would just ingnore this thread. They are under NO OBLIGATION to PROVIDE ANY information regarding the incident. Instead they seem to be proactive and attack anyone who questions the incident.
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Mimi
climber
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I don't really have a dog in this fight other than I finally got aggravated and weighed in due to the growing level of persistence to force a report from someone. I really did try to distance myself from my fondness of Woody, who I never even met, except on here.
I have an opposite view of the pushy concept; internet anonymity allows some of you to be more than pushy. You totally ignore the requests of his friends. The same people who will eventually discuss the facts of the incident. Give it a rest! It's funny to see the ambulance drivers become the chasers.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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i'm with mimi and matt on this one. give it a rest.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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"No One is asking Locker or his friends for any info."
They're the ones who have it-- Wendell is one of Woody's partners. Al was climbing with him and was injured in the accident. Aside from that, there were at least 2 random eyewitnesses who posted incomplete and confused accounts. Everyone else (Largo et. al.) have 2nd hand accounts from these folks and the 1st responders.
Who else could you ask? Here's a list: NPS, SB Co. Sheriff's and Coroner's Office, whichever ambulance co. sent the responding vehicle, any SAR involved. They're are publicly accessible. Of course, not a frickin' one of them is going to tell you or anyone else jack until an official report is filed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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My point is that the most vocal person on this issue is Locker. He is not obligated to say anything to anyone. Not even to the athoritys as he was not to my knowlege an eye wittness. Had he played it cool with the no comment routine this thing would have faded away. Instead he goes prpoactive and tries to suppress ANY talk about the accident details which makes the whole thing look really suspicious.
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Mimi
climber
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tradboy, that's utterly ridiculous. You are one of the visitors here that refuses to read for comprehension.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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This ongoing conspiracy of silence feels unnatural - and it is unprecedented as far as I can recall.
We are KNOTT a bunch of "vultures" eager to be entertained - many of us were friends
of Woody, although we never met him. This just seems wrong and unfair to us friends.
Are there some details of the story that are so sordid that it's too embarrassing to share?
That is the only explanation that makes sense. Was either climber drunk of stoned?
FWIW, I did my first free-solo at Lover's Leap after 5 beers, in which I was the 3rd guy
in a "train" going up the 1st pitch of Haystack followed by the 2nd pitch of Pop Bottle.
One guy in the train (who posts here occasionally) went straight up and finished Haystack.
I didn't feel good doing that, so I followed the other guy up what is known as Haybottle™
I'd never been on Pop Bottle before. I had never free-solo'd before. I was legally drunk.
Now assuming I'd fallen near the top of Haystack's 1st pitch, it's about 160 feet at least.
I'd be dead for sure. So if a bunch of people knew I was drunk and yet omitted that part
of the story, or worse yet, omitted all details of the story, that would be utter, compete bullshít.
So what's so shameful or sordid that it's being so diligently hushed up?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Wow, you read incredibly fast. Or are you responding to my earlier post?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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hahahahahahahah.
suppress, suspicious, conspiracy! locker as big brother! the trampling on the freedomz! the frustrationz of the non-localz! gratuitous friendship by virtual association!
the wearing of the tin foil hats!
hahahaha. work is finally done for today, officially! woo-hoo!
it's sunny out and i get to do a quick training run before the porkchops.
have fun kidz
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Mimi
climber
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The one just above. I don't read that fast. I try to soak in every word.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mimi, understanably you are touchy on this subject but calm down for a bit and look at it rationaly. Look at granitclimbers initial post. be honest with yourself and see that there is no bad intention with that post. If you can't or don't want to discuss the subject that is fine, Don't click on it. Telling people what they can and can't talk about looks bad especialy when it involves an accident.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Something tells me Woody would be highly amused by all this drama...
Am I wrong?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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I agree with klk in post 58 (not his last post above), but I also agree with what Largo and Tyeary said in the other thread.
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Mimi
climber
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I thought about what Woody would be saying right now. And he may be really bummed about this whacking on his account. Or he could be laughing his ass off just the same. I hope it's the latter.
I'm actually not upset. GC intentionally diverted the topic from the other thread to stir the interest up again. It was disingenuous.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It took nearly eleven months before the official report on the death of Todd Skinner was public, and only after the news media made an FOI request for it. The Jackson Hole News & Guide published a summary - see http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=2198
Admittedly, that accident report required some technical and so time-consuming testing of the belay loop that failed, and Todd's harness. But it illustrates that it can take some time. Perhaps Werner, or other professional SAR people, can comment on 'normal' times for such reports to be issued, but several months may not be unusual.
It takes time to examine the site, talk with witnesses, do any testing that is needed, and sum it all up. In this case, the garbled nonsense in the news media suggests that it may be necessary to test some equipment (if it failed, why and how?), and perhaps other tests.
As with almost all rock climbing accidents, there was probably a subjective element, errors of judgment - the various hints that have been made indicate this. The full picture may be more involved.
Let's be patient, and honour the memory of Woody and the request of his family and friends, and let this one be. I'm sure that if there was anything of immediate concern, that we could all learn from, we would have heard it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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"GC intentionally diverted the topic from the other thread to stir the interest up again."
If Mimi read the posts on the other thread, she would see that this is not true. Interest (and God forbid that there be any!) was already stirred up--that's why this thread was started. I don't think that it was appropriate in the other thread.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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That garbled nonsense in the news media is just that.
We may not know much, but one thing we know for sure; "bolts" and "clips" (I assume clips are biners) did not fail, as reported in the Local Tattler.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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"It took nearly eleven months before the official report on the death of Todd Skinner was public, and only after the news media made an FOI request for it."
That's not a very good example, Mighty Hiker. ALL of the relevant details were released within 72 hours of the accident.
Todd's accident was on Oct. 23and this article was published Oct. 26. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/26/CLIMBER.TMP
His friends provide all the relevant details: His belay loop broke while he was rapelling. His harness was worn out. He'd ordered new harnesses but the accident happened before they arrived. What else was there to tell.
The lab report that came out months later only confirmed what we already knew.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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This accident we have been told that someone did something really simple and stupid but don't ask, Don't tell and don't even THINK about talking about it... STFU Nooob Vulture;)
Well that should about cover it untill the article comes out in R&I
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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You forgot "morbid" tradman.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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While Todd Skinner was climbing on a well-used harness, and Jim Hewitt had specifically
mentioned that it was looking pretty ratty, it should be noted that this was the first-ever
case of a belay-loop snapping on a climbing harness. It didn't even seem possible...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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I cannot change the thread title, but if I did I would make it the The Joshua Tree Accident Argument Thread.
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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There's nothing morbid about being curious.
I want to know what happened.
Why all the secrecy?
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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If it's already out, why not post it again here?
Whether it is or isn't anything profound isn't relevant.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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No disrespect intended, Locker - to you or anyone else.
RIP Woody!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Locker,
The current change in tone reminds me to ask: What does Regis Philbin have to do with all this?
Bill
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Hah! Thanks for that. Edit: I mean the Philbin Q/A.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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I think Locker has made it clear that he would like the story to come out but that it's not his to tell. It's not fair that he has become the target for people's frustration.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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All I gotta say is that for a village idiot, locker sure has gained a lot of respect by me.
Let's all take a chill pill here.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Largo: "When a thing is known by a few and a basic (not the speculative "why" of it all), these-are-the-facts breakdown is not responsibly disclosed in a reasonable time, a strange and persistent kind of pressure exerts itself. Like it or hate it, that force will eventually flush the truth out into the open."
Will to truth? That's just frickin hokum. Will to power, maybe. In any event, it sounds like you're talking about a bowel movement.
If you believe that the friends and family have been irresponsible and unreasonable, then step up to the plate. You say you know what happened: Go ahead and post, if that you believe that is in fact the responsible and reasonable thing to do.
At least half the posters here would be in favor. You wouldn't need to keep on increasing the pressure and try to put together some mumbo jumbo about how the deeper instincts of the universe are on your side.
Just frickin do it, if it is your genuine judgment that it's needed.
You're arguably the most high-profile poster here-- partly by virtue of what you've done as a climber, but also (and especially for the n00bs) for the books.
Had you chose to keep the flames down and the temps cooler, you --and the handful of others here who have some sort of moral authority --probably could've done it for several more weeks. You think that would've been a bad idea. Fine. I don't doubt that it's your genuine judgment. I don't share it, but then the world's full of little disappointments.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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well, I tried to keep that hijack going Mimi, it was fun while it lasted...
More sugar!
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Mimi
climber
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I think I have a few bogus pignuts I could contribute to this conversation.
Locker crosspost edit: OMG! Woody is knott the source of said pignuts. Let me make this clear.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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hate to point it out again but 99.99% of the flames are fanned by lockers rants????? Dude. Give the caps lock a break. Without loker & Mimi this thread would have about 10 replys by now. fan the flames and the fire will burn...........
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chuey
climber
Ca.
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According to my speculative analysis from the info provided here on these threads it appears that the accident wasa failed tie in issue. He probably leaned back expecting tension and fell.
There you go wild speculation.
" I just had a thought;
perhaps in his honor we could incorporate the Woodster's name in our vernacular by referring to mutual double checking of tie-ins as a "Woody check". " P.R.
Sounds like a good idea.
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Mimi
climber
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Piton Ron already coined that one. Sorry, maybe next time.
© edit: Don't want any © violations around here. I missed the P.R. credit.
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chuey
climber
Ca.
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"Piton Ron already coined that one"
Yeah, I was quoting him.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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"When a thing is known by a few and a basic (not the speculative "why" of it all), these-are-the-facts breakdown is not responsibly disclosed in a reasonable time, a strange and persistent kind of pressure exerts itself. Like it or hate it, that force will eventually flush the truth out into the open.
Against this anxious force it is useless to argue, moralize, judge, show your teeth, name call, weep, be philosophical, be rational, humaniastic, nasty, callous, selfish, altruistic, and all the rest. The truth doesn't care about feelings or personal positions - so we have to. We have to do the heavy lifting, come to grips with the thing, not as private affair, but as a community tragedy, and let it be over.
Till this affair is openly and honestly discussed, different threads will keep bursting up here and elsewhere, speculation will run rampant, people will talk sh#t, crucify each other openly or passive-agressively - till the truth be finally known.
It is a sad business that for most of us, our only intimate contact with Woody will be through a report on his death. I believe it's more than a morbid or "selfish" streak that drives folks to want this last contact. It's a kind of a send off of souls - imperfect, but strangely transcendent as well. It's as though, retroactively, all of the climbing world can be there for his last moment here on the Third Stone from the Sun."
John, from a climbing perspective I am KNOTT worthy to clean your shoes. But I do not undestand your point. People are hurting, the lesson should be obvious. Let it rest. Peace.
John Penca
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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None of this seems morbid. More like impatient.
People, the choice of when or why isn't yours to demand. Suck it up and chill.
Children nowadays.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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klk wrote to John Long: ""Just frickin do it, if it is your genuine judgment that it's needed.""
Uh, maybe you missed the part about John recieving this information in =confidence=.
At this point, no matter what happened, it can't live up to all this drama that has been created.
Might as well go outside and have some fun like Pud said. :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Trust me.
When the details are fully disclosed this hubub will seem foolish indeed.
Give it a rest.
If you want to truly pay your respects, then do a Woody Check on every pitch you climb.
(Hell, I even do it when soloing!)
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72hw
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Well said Ron - indeed many will feel sheepish about their insistence once the full story is told.... or at least I hope they will.
And the Woody Check? Odd how such things work their way into personal vocabularies without popular discussion. Just the other day atop a pitch in Hidden Valley I found myself saying that exact thing to myself as I went through the motions!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think looking down at your harness checking for your Woody might lead to some misunderstandings.
Of course, Woody might appreciate going down in history like that.
;-)
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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That was my whole point in coining the term.
Maybe in years to come Woody Checks can save countless lives.
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WBraun
climber
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Doesn't work that way in real life ....
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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this thread is just further evidence of the deterioration of the "coolness" factor around here- used to be petty darn diff. from that other forum, now not so much.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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LEB-
get off this forum.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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graniteclimber....nuke this thread, its obviously not what you intended.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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fair enough, i just dont see any "accident analysis" here! just a continuation of previous threads.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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" i just dont see any "accident analysis" here! just a continuation of previous threads."
But it is here and not in the other thread. This thread has functioned as intended in that. But I didn't think it would be as long and that there would be as much anger (on both "sides.")
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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...and the snowball slowly starts to roll downhill...
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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"I am reasonably sure he DID "check" whatever he was suppose to check. "
You are totally clueless LEB.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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waiting until there was something to talk about?
just a thought...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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yo locker-
i was with you there for a minute pal...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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L O MF L
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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"Because I am ALSO pretty sure that you ALL do in fact...
CARE...
Just TOO BAD that you're NOT doing it...
HERE and NOW..."
Locker, well said!
LEB, you have NO clue.
Yeah I know SHOVE it
Three CHEERS FOR THE WOODY CHECK!
I am TRYING to WEAR out MY shift KEY but IT keeps Popping BACK up. LOCKER what SHOULD i DO about MY shift KEY, I keep TRYING to WEAR it OUT but IT just WONT!
IS this WHAT giving YOUR keyboard VIAGRA does?
EDIT: And WHAT does DOG the DOG have TO do WITH any OF this?
EDIT 2: WOW ronbo AND i AGREE on SOMETHING
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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WHAT is THE glass THING on TOP of THAT contarption FOR?
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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LOCKER, no APOLOGY needed, I am SECURE in MY orientation.
I think IM going TO bomb THIS thread IF you DONT.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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I think IM getting SNAIL eye IM so SCARED
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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YOU can JUST start POSTING tons OF stuff THAT takes UP tons of SPACE with WORDS or LOTS of HUGE photos.
We COULD work TOGETHER if YOU like.
EDIT: DAMN straight DWAIN!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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I think I'm gonna download a boatload of old Jerry Springer shows to watch to come down off of reading all of this.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Onyx,
there is no contradiction.
The hubub I referred to was the impatience over detail disclosure.
I still think that Woody would like the idea of his name being associated with a tactic that can save lives, but I got an email from someone named Greg Huey (didn't sign with his taco name) taking issue.
The funny thing is;
then he went on to quote somebody else's post and attribute it to me.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Wow, that shur did spiraL Down hill after I signed off last night...
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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A few of you have issues, actually change that, a few of you are rational, the rest have issues. You should be dealing with those issues before you or someone else gets hurt.
Prod.
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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"this thread is just further evidence of the deterioration of the "coolness" factor around here- used to be petty darn diff. from that other forum, now not so much. "
Perhaps we are more the same than we think forum-to-forum as well as on the 'sides' in this thread: human.
Bill
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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"this thread is just further evidence of the deterioration of the "coolness" factor around here- used to be petty darn diff. from that other forum, now not so much."
Yes, BillL that quote caught my attention, too. Isn't the guy that wrote that, one of the folks ripping on the poor guy who fell on the Designator? Why is it considered acceptable on this forum to rip on a guy that almost died, but actually survived to possibly read what people are saying about his mistake? Is it because he is not from CA and not a part of the "club", or is it just because that situation is not as close to home for some of you as the JT accident was?
What's so cool about that, Matt??
Woody is obviously a revered figure on ST and in CA, and his memory deserves respect. But some of you folks act like you're the only ones who have ever lost a close friend in a climbing accident. Locker, I've been there before and I sincerely hope that the sense of loss that you and Woody's friends/family are feeling will be placed into proper perspective over time. However, I *really* do not understand your display of grief that you have made on ST.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oh boy, if this thread was already going sideways, now it's headed backwards!
Locker strangles LEB? Maybe some good can come of this yet.
Check the Locker! Make sure he's locked and loaded!
;-)
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mim wrote:
"There's still a chance that the grassy knoll figures into this.
The facts are known to those that need to know. Are people on this silly forum on a need to know basis?
Obviously, nothing new or mysterious happened here. So what's the rush? What's the harm of a respectful delay? "
OK, I don't mean anything bad by this Mimi, and I did NOT read the interveneing 170 or so postes between here and the beginning, and won't, but your idea is way off base.
Fisrt, all climbers have an vested interest in how and why a climbing death occurs. that has nothign to do with respect or lack of it. I am POSITIVE Woody would want people to find out WHY, and I aam equally positive that he would want everyone to learn from teh experience.
As for who am I to speak on this, not that that matters after what I jsut wrote, I am a (well was) a climber, rescue trained, WFR trained, and I know at least one of woody's clinbg acquaintances pretty well, and some closer ones a little.
Now, can someone point me to the details, someone who KNOWS, or should I get em from my pal, who probably has probably had time by now to find out the real deal from those who know?
And this all came home to me in a different way when I accidentaly loaded the first page of "best wishes to Dirtineye", and right there, SECOND POST IN THE THREAD, was this:
Author:
WoodySt
Trad climber
From: Riverside
Best wishes to Dirtineye. I've seen a couple of friends go through what he's suffering, and he's got my sympathy.
Jeseus fvcking christ, you really do NEVER KNOW when your time is up. I would have bet my life that woody (And every one else here for that matter) would outlive me. and there he is, lending me support, RIGHT BEFORE HIS OWN DEATH.
Damn that shakes me.
WOody adn I had very sharp political differences, and we made no bones about it. but he could still wish me well. Hell that's how climber ARE. I can't tell you how different some of my FAVORITE partners and I are politically, to the point of cursing each other LOL, and yet, we climb together and respect each other's ability in climbing very well.
A strange game is climbing.
I will stop now, before I ramble too much, but I hope I made my point. Bye woody, too bad we never met. I bet you were a hell of a guy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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PS, Regarding LEB's offense at the "Woody Check"
I agree that she doesn't have a clue, not being a climber. Using the idea "Woody check" would add this memorable element to the safety check. It's funny so we'd remember to do it, and it would keep the Woody memory closer to the surface as well. Woody would certainly be able to take it.
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Locker she gets it very clear. You're just being a stupid fuking moron as usual.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Locker's definitely going to ride his 15 minutes of fame for all it's worth, then it's back to the glue shed...in summer.
Sounds like a simple mistake, maybe didn't clip the anchors or something similar. As he indicated complacency can be deadly.
Anyway, has anyone set up a fund for a plaque or some other dedication to Woody?(other than to the family). Something to honor his contribution to the Park? Sorry if I missed it, please direct me.
P.S. super windy in the Park friday afternoon.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Whatever Locker is clear or unclear about, I trust him to have an idea of what woody would find acceptable or disrespectful
PEace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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He wrote: "John, from a climbing perspective I am KNOTT worthy to clean your shoes. But I do not undestand your point. People are hurting, the lesson should be obvious. Let it rest. Peace."
My point all along is that human nature being what it is, this will not rest, now or ever, till the truth is fully discolsed. Blame me and others if you want - it will not help. Twenty one days have passed. By any professional standards, this is a swufficient grace period. The "hurting" can only get further strung out. Get it out and over with. This thread is starting to get ugly and it's no one's "fault." The Truth has it's own agenda.
JL
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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"IF LEB/LOIS KNEW him and CLIMBED...
She'd get it..."
Locker, you underestimate her....I'm sure she could find a way to not get it.
EDIT - not even 9:30 in the AM, and I am already right about one thing today.....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Locker,
I'm with ya bro but let it be until Wendell and Tia are ready.
Come on over and we'll watch some Jerry Springer. I've plenty of glue but you can bring yours.
Peace
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The drivel gets even deeper...... It's so deep in fact that I will toss out my theory and no one will even notice.. What is that chance that this simple mistake was influenced by hippy lettuce? What is the chance that if Hippy lettuce was in fact a factor that it will be covered up?
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Mimi
climber
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dirt, I tried to state my position. Sorry you missed the earlier posts by me and others and believe I'm off the mark here. I want to know what happened as much as the next person but I can wait.
Reilly, that is a hilarious idea.
tradgeek, you're a bigger as#@&%e than I previously imagined. And a narc to boot. Total as#@&%e!
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TYeary
climber
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Is there some hidden dynamic going on here between the principles involved? Perhaps it is time to set personal agendas aside. Lay your egos down and do something constuctive.
Woody always struck me as a "no BS" kinda guy. I don't think this loitering around the "truth" honors Woody's memory or serves a higher purpose.
Locker has stated the lessons to be gleaned from this accident. It is time to put this to rest too.
RIP, Woody.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mimi, that is a simple question that had to be asked. lockers bizzare behaviour as well as the fact that locker is a known stoner put that out as a possibility. The question was asked and answered. If you think that makes me an Ahole that is too bad. I feel that it would be pathetic to glorify weed use when climing and then cover up the risks involved.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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PS; The ONLY reason I suspected Hippy lettuce and the coverup angle was because of LOCKERS BIZZAR behavior....
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Eric McAuliffe
Trad climber
Alpine County, CA
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the woody check doesnt seem to disrespectfull to me, but all this hostility surrounding someones death is. Cant we all just give it a rest?
E
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Mimi
climber
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LOL! You guys are too much. Guilt by association is it? Locker wasn't even there that day.
Now you're assuming the role of trained investigators gathering all the facts...hot on the trail of reefer madness...OMG!
philo, I find a single cup of tea delightful; sometimes herbal, sometimes caffeinated.
Eric, you're absolutely right. This is needless banter which has been my contention all along. If it wasn't bad form, I'd really like to delete all my posts on this thread. Good intentions gone awry...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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It's worth noting that people who KNOW THE STORY keep telling us to wait (and wait, and wait, and wait, ad infinitum).
Hypocrites!
It's also clear that there are people who had no connection to Woody (online or RL) - yet the info was leaked to THEM...
Ridiculous!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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"It's worth noting that people who KNOW THE STORY keep telling us to wait (and wait, and wait, and wait, ad infinitum)."
Most of those who know because they called up someone and ASKED to hear the details. They COULD NOT WAIT themselves.
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johngenx
climber
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If people are upset about their friend and partner dying, well, I get that. It's happened to me, and I wasn't myself after either. If those that were there don't want to discuss it, that's fine. Just say so.
This "it's already been written, you're just not looking in the right place" is juvenile and unproductive.
I have learned a great deal over the years by the mistakes and misjudgments made by others. It's not meant to be disrespectful in any way. It's just a wake up call for those of us still here. Were I to make a goof and end up dead, I would hope that others picked apart what I did and learned from it, if possible.
Todd Skinner's death had me thinking aloud "I don't buy a new harness because my wife might gripe about me spending $80 on climbing gear?" What a moron I was! I also evaluated my rapping back-ups and techniques, just to make sure I'm not setting myself up for some future failure.
Will Gadd and Lynn Hill both had non-fatal (not even a fall for Gadd) experiences with not tying in properly. My partners and I vowed to keep doing harness and knot checks, no matter how often we're out or how experienced we think we are.
We read avalanche reports and look at terrain, snow conditions, weather conditions, etc. Trying to figure out if we would have made the same decisions, or not, and why.
And on and on. It's a life long learning process and hopefully most can be learned without personally experiencing the screw up.
Now, if those close to Woody would rather not discuss what occurred, okay.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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its not worth the argument and vitriol, I can wait until the article comes out in climbing or rock and ice, if it even does.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Locker - it's knott so much about lessons as it is just finding out WTF happened...
-for Christ's sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
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Mimi
climber
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We're all bozos on this bus. Agreed!?
"Fighting's out of style; Fun's where the fear is!"
This thread has been a total waste of good Firesign Theater.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mimi's back
On your right, it's five thousand feet to the bottom of the Grand can-yooonnn.
Ah-Clem.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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All we need is Crowley back - and it's one big happy family again...
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Mimi
climber
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Ah-clown.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Locker, Ron, do I really need the details? (i suspect I will procure them later in the week, when I am in Josh) Kind of too bad we can't just let it go, right now.
Not that I won't pay attention when I do hear the story...
Kid I got the clone, see you on the funway...
or
Squeeze the wheeze, many people like to.
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Mimi
climber
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Jaybro, TGT just posted part of the story. Looks like there are a couple remaining questions.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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where? here somewhere?
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Mimi
climber
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The Lesson, TGT.
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