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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 16, 2008 - 09:10am PT
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"Do you understand the meaning of liberty and justice for all?"
yes, i do, and i understand that "all" refers to the unborn...a fertilized egg is NOT a "potential life" but, in fact, an actual life with all the same "inalienable rights" that you and i have outside the womb...so your arguments about menstruation, miscarriages, etc. are idiotic (note, i called your arguments idiotic, not you)
the argument comes down to a simple question: when does life begin...i happen to believe life begins at conception...the fertilized egg is NOT, as someone here posited, a "potential life" but rather an actual life with all the same "inalienable rights" as a full grown adult...with that belief, i cannot sanction abortion...i can accept it (because i am not perfect) in certain circumstances: when the mother's life is in danger, when the pregnancy results from rape; but i believe taking another life just because that life MIGHT interfere with your "pursuit of happiness" is WRONG, especially when you made the CHOICE to create that life when you made the CHOICE to have sex
i believe life begins at conception because it's the only LOGICAL answer to the question: when does life begin? at the beginning, of course...it can't begin before the beginning, and it's completely illogical to say life begins after the beginning...there's only one possible moment that can LOGICALLY be called the beginning, and that is, er, the beginning...scientifically, all our dna is present at the moment of conception...
ok, wes, let's hear your beliefs on when life begins
now, i've heard many abortion supporters claim they "don't know" when life begins; so i ask you, do really want to take that chance?
our justice system demands a verdict "beyond a reasonable doubt"; in death penalty cases, i think the standard of judgment must be "beyond ANY doubt", which means, of course, that i don't believe in the death penalty because, without a confession, there will ALWAYS be a doubt
as for reality, the reality is that a majority of americans oppose same-sex marriage although i think polls show a slightly lesser majority approve of civil unions...so, go with civil unions...and, maybe, after 50 years or so, the majority will shift and change the legislation...i'm biased, but that sounds like a reasonable approach to overturning a tradition that has served humanity for millenia
as for reality, i think it's clear that our "defining deviancy down" (that's from moynihan, a LIBERAL) has proved detrimental to our society...girls gone wild is only the most obvious example...now, wes, you might look forward to seeing your daughter in one of those videos, or maybe you prefer she turn pro and get paid for her work, and i'm sure you will encourage her to do whatever makes her "happy" (because you want her to be popular, and, well, being popular makes most teenagers happy, and the boys are going to love her...well, not exactly "love", but you know what i mean) and you will assure her that sex has nothing to do with love and that if she gets pregnant (because not using a condom makes the boys happy) she can just kill her baby, oops, fetus, and all those "studies" that show young women who are promiscuous have low self esteem are just propoganda from haters, BUT, i think, the rest of us want our daughters to value their virginity and to wait patiently for a truly loving relationship with a boy who values his own virginity...of course, i realize, wes, that you probably think i sound like an idiot, but i'll take that as a compliment
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 16, 2008 - 10:40am PT
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jebus, read carefully
"now, i've heard many abortion supporters claim they "don't know" when life begins; so i ask you, do really want to take that chance?
our justice system demands a verdict "beyond a reasonable doubt"; in death penalty cases, i think the standard of judgment must be "beyond ANY doubt", which means, of course, that i don't believe in the death penalty because, without a confession, there will ALWAYS be a doubt"
and your analogy makes no sense at all...the death penalty is reserved for convicted murderers...babies in the womb are INNOCENT; they're guilty of NOTHING, not even rape
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 16, 2008 - 08:43pm PT
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"a fertilized egg is NOT a "potential life" but, in fact, an actual life.
An unfertilized egg is also an actual life.
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 16, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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What about jacking off?
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Nov 17, 2008 - 12:22am PT
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Ok ok please please can this thread please die.
IGNORE
IGNORE
IGNORE
There is alot of work to bump up the OT's.
Let it go
PLEASE
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 17, 2008 - 01:50am PT
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Thanks for calling so many of us Young, big Sis.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Nov 17, 2008 - 02:06am PT
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In just in time for a weschrist temper tantrum.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Nov 17, 2008 - 02:22am PT
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Common lois Please Stop I havent bugged you for a long time. Please move on. start a new thread about some thing positive. I know you want to be here so start a conversation about something interesting.
PLEASE.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 17, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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Lois,
They're addicted to your posts. Resistance is futile.
Whenever someone falls back on the fallacy that they're right because they are smarter than you, they've lost the argument. It's an admission that they can't meet your reasoning satisfactorily so they try to sandbag you.
What I find so amusing is the silly few that complain about your posts etc. yet never fail to show up and keep blathering on.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 17, 2008 - 08:39am PT
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leb, i understand that people have different ideas about when life begins; i'm simply asking them to explain their rationale or expalin why my rationale is faulty
i'm not talking about a soul or personhood; i'm talking about LIFE; life, like ALL processes, begins at the beginning, which, in this case, is conception; you can't have a life without conception
also, i do believe that some killing is justifiable, like when the mother's life is in danger...i don't believe that birth control is a justifiable reason for abortion (killing a baby)...if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex; if you have sex, accept the consequences
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 21, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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Lois,
Now, I don't know if this is going to happen, but...
Obama may move toward the center--pragmatic--and throw the hard left out the window. If so, I relish the thought that I may find myself defending him against the hard left loons; that would be grand fun.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 21, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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I always expected him to be a left-center President. I'll be generally pleasd with that. It was the righties, screaming about Obama's socialism and other such hyperbole, who will be surprised by his veer towards the center.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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"Obama may move toward the center--pragmatic--and throw the hard left out the window. If so, I relish the thought that I may find myself defending him against the hard left loons; that would be grand fun. "
Um.... This is why we ELECTED HIM. This is what we repeatedly stated was his appeal. YOU'RE the ones who spent the entire election cycle arguing that he was a Marxist (though never having actually read Marx) Seriously what planet so you guys even live on.
Thanks for proving my point though.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:53pm PT
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LEB-
On what are you basing that assessment of him? Other than the election propaganda that he was "the most liberal Senator." You are stating an opinion as fact. What he ran on and what he said he would do and what I have repeatedly stated what my support for him was based on was his bipartisanship and his ability to bring people together.
My instinct here is to elaborate but god knows where that has gotten me in the past.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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It would be entirely in character if Obama was in most respects a pragmatic, centrist president. He won by a significant enough majority that he doesn't have to pander to anyone.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 21, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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What votes in particular, LEB? What have you seen in his voting record that makes you say this?
You continue to cling to this hope that their is some illusion about Obama that will crumble, when it is in fact reality and pragmatism that he has based his campaign and rhetoric upon. You continue to maintain a condescending view towards those who voted for Obama, who you wrongly paint as being far-left liberals when in fact it was a huge cross section of the country. It's a little sad.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2008 - 10:14pm PT
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have you noticed that Republican moderates keep cheering Obama's appointments?
Peace
Karl
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