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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 11:40pm PT
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Z,
Okay, I'm not positive about the trail/bolts connection, but I've soloed the route about five times a season for the past 12 years and though I saw a gradual increase in traffic over the first 8-9 years the increase has been much more dramatic since the bolts went in. If you drill it they will come.
If you can get off it without the bolts why drill? If you can't why not wait until you can or go with someone who can lower you or set up a natural anchor and then can downclimb.
Just as I don't think someone has a right to a conveniently bolted anchor, I know I don't have a right to a bolt-free summit, I just don't think anyone should change the basic nature of an established route.
Crystalpsycho has some natural belays on El Cap I wouldn't feel comfortable hauling off of, but I wouldn't dream of adding bolts to them; I just won't climb them. If someone does a first ascent and puts a bolted anchor next to a perfectly good crack, and I felt strongly about it I would use the crack and skip the bolts, but I wouldn't chop them. IMHO precedence takes precedence.
SL
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Russ Walling
Novice climber
Pick one
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Sep 20, 2002 - 12:43am PT
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A few thoughts and generalizations IMO:
1. Added bolts should be chopped... anywhere.
2. This is an ego fest between Bill and a certain OLD yosemite climber. Grow up old guy..... didn't you used to be so bold?
3. Callng the cops for bolt chopping is assinine. Get some sack. Do your own dirty work. Sheesh....
4. This is nothing new.
5. Convenience anchors get chopped all the time. It is a gym Vs. trad thing.
6. 80% of you guys in here couldn't carry Bill Russells boots to the crags, nevermind weigh in on this issue.
7. Rapping 15ft. of 4th class is so wuss, it ought to nullify your ascent.
8. Use your real name and email if you are going to run your lips.
9. Get all the facts, then pop off.
10. Climb more, spray less.
adios,
Russ
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Mid Cal
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 11:27am PT
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can we please just get to the part where people are threatening to kick each others asses at the parking lot and then move on to what's important, like what the hell is UP with Metallica?
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Tommy T
Novice climber
Encinitas CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 11:37am PT
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I couldn,t agree with you more Russ!! Most of these no name loosers probably coulnd't come close to carrying Bill,s shoes to the crags much less following them up some of his routes. It is freaking lame to think anyone would want to bring the Rangers in on this issue. Are we not talking about a route that was established before bolts were even discoverd in the climbing community. If you don't have the abbility to get off the top of Cathedral Peak with out rap anchors, wait till you do! I's that simple. Just because I want to do the Reticent Wall, does this give me the right to go drill happy? I'ts time to climb, not be stupid!
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Dan
Novice climber
VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 12:27pm PT
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The climb should be renamed Post Office Peak, for the continuous line you need to wait in on it. I woulda gone postal if I didn’t expect a crowd. I shared the route this summer with people climbing with 3 page SuperTopo printouts in hand and we all shared the summit with a group of 9 who hiked the descent to toprope the summit.
Leave a sling on the upper chockstone if you’re so damn concerned. It doesn’t need bolts. Last I heard, climbing wasn’t about convenience. Climbing is about managing inherent risks, not avoiding them.
Bolts will only add to the crowds. Just like the Park Service’s ‘improvement’ plan for the Valley.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 12:54pm PT
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Before I comment on this subject, I'd like to know how serious the people are who intend to replace these 'chicken' bolts on the summit, let alone install 5 new rap stations with chains on the route itself. ...or are you just a bunch of wussies mouthing off?
So, how serious are you?
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 01:39pm PT
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I like the bolt ladder idea, personally
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jocko
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 02:50pm PT
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i cant speak for z the summit bolter but i was just being silly about all the rap anchors.
but someday i wouldnt be surprised to see it come to pass.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 03:28pm PT
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If you finish Cathedral in the afternoon of October 3rd, you'll be the second to use them, or the first to chop them.
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joe climber
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 03:49pm PT
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when I climbed the route a couple weeks ago, most people who were beginners or who hadn't done the route before were just skipping the summit block. Presumably because of the lack of bolts. It was on a saturday and we actually had the summit to ourselves for a good half an hour while people were topping out and walking around. We didn't have to wait for anyone on the route either since we simul-climbed variations just to the right of the normal route. And we didn't start climbing till 11:00am. If you can climb 5.8 and don't mind some runouts on easy terrain, this is the way to go.
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Joe
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 05:13pm PT
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Argue away, then bolt, chop, & rebolt all you want. In the end all you'll accomplish will be the Forest Service taking control from a bunch of adults acting like kids. Their response will be to ban climbing on Cathedral Peak altogether. This is always the simplest way of protecting natural resources when they suffer at the hands of arguing humans. And I can't say I'll blame them.
How utterly stupid to idiot-proof a ridiculously short alpine downclimb with rap bolts, when those who can't make the downclimb can just go around the last part? this is the kind of lunacy that California always seems to lead the nation in. The trouble is, the rest of the country always seems to follow along after awhile until we're all just as stupid! This kind of crap is inevitable when we start packaging outdoor experiences for the less able in the form of sanitized, guided trips.
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howie
Intermediate climber
calgary (ex Brit)
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 05:33pm PT
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Generally I am not in favour of bolting having come through the old generation era of the late 50/60/70's and do my utmost to climb without there use where possible. If bolts are known to be in situ they may constitute a safety aspect of the climb, then I believe they should remain. Climbers have come to expect bolts to be in place when these are detailed in guide books etc. To remove them could prove dangerous. We should not be in the game of making climbing dangerous for anyone, no matter what are ethics or enviromental interests are.
Thanks for the forum.
Howie.
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BR
Novice climber
The LBC
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Sep 20, 2002 - 05:42pm PT
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Howie: do you know of any topos for Cathedral Peak that indicate summit bolts? The SuperTopo doesn't, does it?
Anyone: any word on what other bolts were chopped?
I know I've said this before, but wtf with people hauling a bolt kit up an ultra-crowded, clean 5.6 climb anyway? Or is it really just some old guy who feels really strongly that there should be bolts on the summit and is taking it upon himself to replace them every time they get chopped?
br
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howie
Intermediate climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 05:48pm PT
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Thanks BR.
No you are right, I do not.
I was trying to generalise. Don't want to piss anyone off as they might come up here and start chopping!!
Anyone interested in coming To Canada to climb ice or rock, just visit The Calgary Mountain Club web site. We would make you most welcome and ensure you got to climb!
Howie
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DS
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 06:01pm PT
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Just took a look. The Supertopo does show a set of bolts on the summit. Isn't part of the problem regarding ethics due to the fact that there is very little info on the FA? Muir didn't climb the Southeast But. Roper's history of the route makes the point that basically nothing is known about the FA. If they pounded in a couple pins for the short rap would that justify a fixed anchor.
Mind you I could care less whether there are bolts on top or not. I've never climbed it when they were there and downclimbing was simply a non-issue.
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rocko
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 06:11pm PT
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the topo doesnt have any bearing on the safety... the 15' crack can be safely downled although beginners may not be prepared for this... the summit has cracks in which a safe rappel anchor can be built... possibly an expense and an inconvenience but not dangerous
muir had the first ascent and descent of the 15' crack that is avoided by rappelling... not sure but i would bet big $$$ that wilts and austin did not rap the summit
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crystalpsycho
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 08:34pm PT
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by the way it's spelled sergeant, and that name is obsolete.
he is now called swilliam, or sinilus. and yes he is light. britney spears could send way more proudly than swilly
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DR
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 09:51pm PT
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Here we go again! This topic always brings out the best in us.
I think it's pretty lame to take personal shots at someone on this forum and not have the balls to identify yourself.
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Og
Advanced climber
YO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:18pm PT
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Unlike yourself RUSS, and your drinking budy Bill who just power down OLD E starting in the morning, i still climb a lot. Yes I do have a strong view on this and I might listen to Bill if he were an active climber in the community. But to chop bolts just to piss people off? Come on.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:45pm PT
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So, if Charlie Porter came up to visit from his work in S. America and the Antarctic and said he liked/didn't like the retro-bolting on El Cap we shouldn't give him the time of day, right?
What does Bill's swilling or lack of recent climbing acheivements have to do with this? Two bolts at the top of 15' of 4th class; what does the radness of the remover or the debater have to do with this?
SL
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