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z
Novice climber
z
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 19, 2002 - 02:04pm PT
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Bill Russell pulled the bolts on top of Cathedral Peak last fall and several other routes in Tuolumne this summer.
His ethics; if they were not there on the first ascent they don't belong there.
Why don't you go pull all the non original bolts on the Nose?? Eh Bill?
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 02:07pm PT
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I guarantee you I will rebolt it. Just to spite any of you elitists. It will happen before winter.
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Fred
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 02:14pm PT
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What gives him the right to pull the bolts?? He is a guide at the Yosemite Climbing School and was known for adding chicken bolts on big walls when he used to climb. He pulls these bolts when he working so someone should call his boss.
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jocko
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 02:14pm PT
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i intend to add rappel stations, bolts and chains, at five locations on the southeast buttress of cathedral peak. too many people have been caught in thunderstorms and fixed rappel stations would make retreat safer. if they are chopped, i will return and rebolt them.
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peak bagger
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 02:51pm PT
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The bolts on top should have never been chopped. They take nothing away from the climb, and only facilitate retreat from a small summit, which is often the site of crowded clusters and bad weather.
If bill indeed chopped them I hope YMS fires his ass.
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Marc
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 03:23pm PT
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whatever happens I hope we wont see loads of ugly scars from people pulling bolts, re-drilling, re-pulling, on and on. PLEASE MAKE ENVIRONMENTAL ETHICS TOP PRIORITY
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Pissed Off
Advanced climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 04:01pm PT
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Here is the deal, Bill pulled the bolts while guiding and did not fill in the holes. Other climbers filled in the holes later.
Do any of you remember the bolt wars of the 80's? Many bolts were chopped but they have since been replaced. Sure those bolts on Cathedral Peak were not there when John Muir climbed it but times have changed. There are sometimes 6 to 10 climbers on the summit and some may not want to down climb or are not capable of it.
They will probably be replaced and Bill may chop them again.So who loses here? The rock.
What gives Bill the right to dictate how we should climb? The only reason Bill will ever be on the summit of Cathedral Peak is when he is guiding. He never goes up there for the enjoyment of the route and to just climb it for fun.
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rocko
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 04:07pm PT
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the rock doesnt care... the environmental impact of bolting and chopping is nill... this is about climber ethics and thats all... dont kid yourself into thinking its anything more
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Mike
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 04:10pm PT
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Generally speaking I think bolts don't belong on mountain summits which are the most holy of all places....sounds to me like he was in the right.
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asdf
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 05:10pm PT
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That's all good. But who decides what is "holy?" This was brought up a few months ago. The bottom line is that it will ALWAYS get rebolded no matter what. So if you chop them, you are only ensuring more scars. If you leave them, that would be the end of it.
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Martin Z
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 05:34pm PT
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IF this is true:
Bill's actions were improper. He is destroying property that is not his. I will be making a call to the Tuolumne Ranger Station to ask that he be contacted and that his employer - YCS - be informed.
Tuolumne Ranger Station number is 209-372-0450(1).
I would encourage others to call the Park Service, especially if you have specific information regarding when he chopped the bolts and confirming whether he did do it on company time (or not).
A lot of people, including the SAR team, expect those bolts to be there.
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MS
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 07:13pm PT
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Warning: A strong opinion here. Reader discretion is advised.
Pulling bolts on Cathedral Peak eh? Why not just rip out all the fixed anchors atop every route with a descent easier than say 5.5. Or the whole Royal Arches rappel route for that matter?
Seriously, who has the right to oppress the way all climbers practice safely, especially when said practices are well within the acceptable methods deployed with minimal controversy in the same area? Bill Russell, or anyone else pulling fixed anchors that are accepted and expected by many for the sake of enforcing his/her personal ethics is exercising his power and control of the rest of us. Extreme indeed. That goes directly against the live and let live philosophy most of us climbers respect and which I do my best to abide (Don’t say it. I already know what you’re thinking).
Besides, I don’t see how removing those bolts will add to the quality of the climb. If it did I would sing a different tune. I’ve been to the top of many a route, and no rappel bolt has, or is going to ruin the experience one iota. But tons of scaring might. If mountain peaks were supposed to be protected from human impact, then put your money where you mouth is (Bolt Chopper) and stop climbing them. So please LEAVE YOUR BIBELS rather BOLT CHOPPERS AT HOME! ROCK CLIMBING IS NOT A RELIGION WITH A LIST OF TEN COMMANDMENTS!
People do crap like that because they got their head stuck in a crack and they’ve lost sight of what’s REALLY important; like safety, fun and the sense of adventure, which by the way is up to individuals to decide, not guides, professionals or self anointed experts.
MS out...
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crystalpsycho
Advanced climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 07:46pm PT
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you can slander bill all you want but i will defend his actions. "convienience" anchors such as these should be removed and discouraged. who decided it was o.k. to add bolts to an existing route? a pretentious bastard that's who. it's not about safety, the place was always safe. if bill didn't remove them someone else (such as myself) would have. if you replace them then you are destroying the rock as they WILL be removed again.
don't bother calling his employer to fire bill as they are well aware of his actions.
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asdf
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 08:04pm PT
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Ok here we go again. So YOU get to define "convienience?" Not for me you can't, or probably anyone else. What are any bolts for?...they're for you to conveniently not die.
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sans guide ahora
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 08:09pm PT
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Bill guided me once and I thought he was a jerk, figures he'd chop em.
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Duh Judge
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 08:11pm PT
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If you die downclimbing from the summit of Cathedral then you should not have been there in the first place, it is not an accident, it is your own damn fault and will be ruled suicide.
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jim bob
Novice climber
san jose
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 08:35pm PT
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I'm going to drill a bolt ladder aid route parallel to the SE Buttress of Cathedral Peak. Hopefully this is cool with everybody.
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jocko
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 08:50pm PT
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no way man thats going too far and i will chop them all!
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 10:20pm PT
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I can't believe some of the weak arguments I've heard hear. One guy essentially saying, "if you chop the bolts they will inevitably be replaced so just leave them or you'll create more scarring." Another basically saying, "if you place more bolts they will inevitably be chopped so don't replace them or you'll create more scarring." Brilliant!
As has been pointed out already, you are either deluding yourself or are disingenuous if you are arguing that bolting is an environmental catastrophe. This is an ethical dilemma.
Personally I'm against adding bolts to an established route unless it's to an anchor that already has bolts. Climbing for me is not about convenience, but if there are already bolts at an anchor I'm not opposed to making it more convenient. I think there is a certain aesthetic value inherent in a clean summit or a natural anchor. I value those things. Some people value convenience more.
Don't confuse convenience and safety. This is another specious argument that's been made. Sure, because of a convenient anchor more inexperienced climbers can be safe rapping off the top instead of downclimbing the 15' 4-5 class crack, but most probably wouldn't be there without those bolts. Since the bolts went in I've seen traffic on Cathedral skyrocket. Before the bolts, there was just a hint of a trail leading off the Bud Lake trail, now it's just as prominent.
With the huge growth in climbing over the past decade a large number of people have developed the attitude that they have a right to safer more convenient climbing; whatever happened to getting your appprenticeship in trad and working your way up? But, oh no that's elitist; "I've been certified to belay in the gym and my buddy leads the red routes, we can't downclimb, but we think we can rappel, it's not fair waaaaaanhhhh." Please don't be the great savior; the servant of the public good.
John Muir climbed Cathedral Peak in 1869. No chalk, no fancy shoes with sticky rubber. The summit went for approximately 125 years without bolts. But now we desperately need them? This is progress?
SL
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Martin Z
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 11:08pm PT
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SL: I'm pretty sure the expansion of the trail to Budd Lake is unrelated to the bolts on Cathedral. The trail was developed, in 1997, by the National Park Service to manage the environmental impact that had been growing progresively worse over many years due to increased traffic by both climbers and non-climbers.
MZ
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2002 - 11:40pm PT
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Z,
Okay, I'm not positive about the trail/bolts connection, but I've soloed the route about five times a season for the past 12 years and though I saw a gradual increase in traffic over the first 8-9 years the increase has been much more dramatic since the bolts went in. If you drill it they will come.
If you can get off it without the bolts why drill? If you can't why not wait until you can or go with someone who can lower you or set up a natural anchor and then can downclimb.
Just as I don't think someone has a right to a conveniently bolted anchor, I know I don't have a right to a bolt-free summit, I just don't think anyone should change the basic nature of an established route.
Crystalpsycho has some natural belays on El Cap I wouldn't feel comfortable hauling off of, but I wouldn't dream of adding bolts to them; I just won't climb them. If someone does a first ascent and puts a bolted anchor next to a perfectly good crack, and I felt strongly about it I would use the crack and skip the bolts, but I wouldn't chop them. IMHO precedence takes precedence.
SL
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Russ Walling
Novice climber
Pick one
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Sep 20, 2002 - 12:43am PT
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A few thoughts and generalizations IMO:
1. Added bolts should be chopped... anywhere.
2. This is an ego fest between Bill and a certain OLD yosemite climber. Grow up old guy..... didn't you used to be so bold?
3. Callng the cops for bolt chopping is assinine. Get some sack. Do your own dirty work. Sheesh....
4. This is nothing new.
5. Convenience anchors get chopped all the time. It is a gym Vs. trad thing.
6. 80% of you guys in here couldn't carry Bill Russells boots to the crags, nevermind weigh in on this issue.
7. Rapping 15ft. of 4th class is so wuss, it ought to nullify your ascent.
8. Use your real name and email if you are going to run your lips.
9. Get all the facts, then pop off.
10. Climb more, spray less.
adios,
Russ
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Mid Cal
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 11:27am PT
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can we please just get to the part where people are threatening to kick each others asses at the parking lot and then move on to what's important, like what the hell is UP with Metallica?
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Tommy T
Novice climber
Encinitas CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 11:37am PT
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I couldn,t agree with you more Russ!! Most of these no name loosers probably coulnd't come close to carrying Bill,s shoes to the crags much less following them up some of his routes. It is freaking lame to think anyone would want to bring the Rangers in on this issue. Are we not talking about a route that was established before bolts were even discoverd in the climbing community. If you don't have the abbility to get off the top of Cathedral Peak with out rap anchors, wait till you do! I's that simple. Just because I want to do the Reticent Wall, does this give me the right to go drill happy? I'ts time to climb, not be stupid!
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Dan
Novice climber
VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 12:27pm PT
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The climb should be renamed Post Office Peak, for the continuous line you need to wait in on it. I woulda gone postal if I didn’t expect a crowd. I shared the route this summer with people climbing with 3 page SuperTopo printouts in hand and we all shared the summit with a group of 9 who hiked the descent to toprope the summit.
Leave a sling on the upper chockstone if you’re so damn concerned. It doesn’t need bolts. Last I heard, climbing wasn’t about convenience. Climbing is about managing inherent risks, not avoiding them.
Bolts will only add to the crowds. Just like the Park Service’s ‘improvement’ plan for the Valley.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 12:54pm PT
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Before I comment on this subject, I'd like to know how serious the people are who intend to replace these 'chicken' bolts on the summit, let alone install 5 new rap stations with chains on the route itself. ...or are you just a bunch of wussies mouthing off?
So, how serious are you?
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 01:39pm PT
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I like the bolt ladder idea, personally
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jocko
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 02:50pm PT
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i cant speak for z the summit bolter but i was just being silly about all the rap anchors.
but someday i wouldnt be surprised to see it come to pass.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 03:28pm PT
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If you finish Cathedral in the afternoon of October 3rd, you'll be the second to use them, or the first to chop them.
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joe climber
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 03:49pm PT
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when I climbed the route a couple weeks ago, most people who were beginners or who hadn't done the route before were just skipping the summit block. Presumably because of the lack of bolts. It was on a saturday and we actually had the summit to ourselves for a good half an hour while people were topping out and walking around. We didn't have to wait for anyone on the route either since we simul-climbed variations just to the right of the normal route. And we didn't start climbing till 11:00am. If you can climb 5.8 and don't mind some runouts on easy terrain, this is the way to go.
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Joe
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 05:13pm PT
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Argue away, then bolt, chop, & rebolt all you want. In the end all you'll accomplish will be the Forest Service taking control from a bunch of adults acting like kids. Their response will be to ban climbing on Cathedral Peak altogether. This is always the simplest way of protecting natural resources when they suffer at the hands of arguing humans. And I can't say I'll blame them.
How utterly stupid to idiot-proof a ridiculously short alpine downclimb with rap bolts, when those who can't make the downclimb can just go around the last part? this is the kind of lunacy that California always seems to lead the nation in. The trouble is, the rest of the country always seems to follow along after awhile until we're all just as stupid! This kind of crap is inevitable when we start packaging outdoor experiences for the less able in the form of sanitized, guided trips.
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howie
Intermediate climber
calgary (ex Brit)
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 05:33pm PT
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Generally I am not in favour of bolting having come through the old generation era of the late 50/60/70's and do my utmost to climb without there use where possible. If bolts are known to be in situ they may constitute a safety aspect of the climb, then I believe they should remain. Climbers have come to expect bolts to be in place when these are detailed in guide books etc. To remove them could prove dangerous. We should not be in the game of making climbing dangerous for anyone, no matter what are ethics or enviromental interests are.
Thanks for the forum.
Howie.
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BR
Novice climber
The LBC
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Sep 20, 2002 - 05:42pm PT
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Howie: do you know of any topos for Cathedral Peak that indicate summit bolts? The SuperTopo doesn't, does it?
Anyone: any word on what other bolts were chopped?
I know I've said this before, but wtf with people hauling a bolt kit up an ultra-crowded, clean 5.6 climb anyway? Or is it really just some old guy who feels really strongly that there should be bolts on the summit and is taking it upon himself to replace them every time they get chopped?
br
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howie
Intermediate climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 05:48pm PT
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Thanks BR.
No you are right, I do not.
I was trying to generalise. Don't want to piss anyone off as they might come up here and start chopping!!
Anyone interested in coming To Canada to climb ice or rock, just visit The Calgary Mountain Club web site. We would make you most welcome and ensure you got to climb!
Howie
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DS
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 06:01pm PT
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Just took a look. The Supertopo does show a set of bolts on the summit. Isn't part of the problem regarding ethics due to the fact that there is very little info on the FA? Muir didn't climb the Southeast But. Roper's history of the route makes the point that basically nothing is known about the FA. If they pounded in a couple pins for the short rap would that justify a fixed anchor.
Mind you I could care less whether there are bolts on top or not. I've never climbed it when they were there and downclimbing was simply a non-issue.
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rocko
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 06:11pm PT
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the topo doesnt have any bearing on the safety... the 15' crack can be safely downled although beginners may not be prepared for this... the summit has cracks in which a safe rappel anchor can be built... possibly an expense and an inconvenience but not dangerous
muir had the first ascent and descent of the 15' crack that is avoided by rappelling... not sure but i would bet big $$$ that wilts and austin did not rap the summit
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crystalpsycho
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 08:34pm PT
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by the way it's spelled sergeant, and that name is obsolete.
he is now called swilliam, or sinilus. and yes he is light. britney spears could send way more proudly than swilly
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DR
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 09:51pm PT
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Here we go again! This topic always brings out the best in us.
I think it's pretty lame to take personal shots at someone on this forum and not have the balls to identify yourself.
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Og
Advanced climber
YO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:18pm PT
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Unlike yourself RUSS, and your drinking budy Bill who just power down OLD E starting in the morning, i still climb a lot. Yes I do have a strong view on this and I might listen to Bill if he were an active climber in the community. But to chop bolts just to piss people off? Come on.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:45pm PT
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So, if Charlie Porter came up to visit from his work in S. America and the Antarctic and said he liked/didn't like the retro-bolting on El Cap we shouldn't give him the time of day, right?
What does Bill's swilling or lack of recent climbing acheivements have to do with this? Two bolts at the top of 15' of 4th class; what does the radness of the remover or the debater have to do with this?
SL
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Rockfax
Novice climber
Bishop
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:50pm PT
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"Bill's actions were improper."
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you value.
"He is destroying property that is not his"
Bollox...all fixed gear is abandoned and belongs to no one.
Mick R
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:53pm PT
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The lack of radness of the people placing the bolts, or at least the lack of appreciation for the history and tradition of respect for the ethics of the first ascent is much more relevant.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:54pm PT
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Yeah, yeah I know radness is not a word.
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Russ Walling
Novice climber
pick one
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Sep 20, 2002 - 11:10pm PT
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OG writes: (whoever that is?)
>>Unlike yourself RUSS, and your drinking budy Bill who just power down OLD E starting in the morning, i still climb a lot.<<
hahaa! Shows what you know. Next fallacy please....
>>Yes I do have a strong view on this and I might listen to Bill if he were an active climber in the community. But to chop bolts just to piss people off? Come on.<<
Wrong again. Is your opinion strong enough to put a name on it? Seems you just believe the hype and hide behind your computer. Come out come out whoever you are..... we can have a serious conversation when you grow some sack. Until then.....
adios,
Russ
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s
Advanced climber
nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 11:42pm PT
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its just Bill being Bill , get over it. the bolts were unnecessary!
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The Dude
Novice climber
Truckee
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 05:20am PT
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The Bolts are not needed. Anyone that can climb the route can easily downclimb from the summit. If you can't downclimb , don't do a sierra peak. Also what is this about SAR "expecting" the bolts to be up there, that's bullsh#t. Cathedral is not that hard of a rescue, siters know how to place gear. One more thing, don't mess with Bill, he is the Godfather of the DLFA, need I say more..
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Jerry Anderson
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 10:49am PT
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It is Bill just being Bill and VERY few out there are qualified to carry either Bill or Russ' shoes to the base of the climb. So what if they drink and irritate you, what have you done in your climbing career that makes you so special? Do we now ignore Robbins, Chouinard and the other "old guys" who aren't real active? Is the first ascent of the Nose, NA or Salathe' negated because others did them free with the help of new bolts? I know Russ by reputation only but Bill and the "other" person involved are my friends. It is my opinion Bill is right in this issue.
To the as#@&%es that negetively mention "California" and "old guys", do the names above mean anything in either context? How about Pratt, Kamps, Harding, Bridwell, Hill, Kauk etc forever? Other than Kor who ever did much in Yosemite who wasn't from Calif? Bet you still can't climb with Kamps or Joe Brown (you know, the Brit with BIG balls) and they are in their 70's. Old trads still climb and still climb boldly and aren't even afraid to say their name. Climbing is about risk management, just like driving the freeway, visiting a third world country or dealing with punters who started the route 15 minutes earlier than you did. With some of the sh#t I see with wankers at sport areas, people are perfectly capable of makeing all the bolts far more dangerous than an experienced climber on a run out route at his or her limit. Learn the trade!! Just because you like football doesn't qualify you for the NFL.
Yes, the bolts will probably be replaced. Yes more bolts will be added everywhere and it is often justified and won't be stopped in any case. I did one of the very early ascents of the S. Face of Washington Column in the 60's and there was a total of 5 bolts. I did it again recently and there were more than 20. Same with the Nose, Dihedral and on and on. Probably the best way to deal with it is to go adventure climbing again, in the back country, Greenland, Patagonia....
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Tired of alcoholic spwerers.
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 01:07pm PT
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All we have to do is wait for a couple more old, has been alcoholic/drug addict trad climbers to give their 2 cents worth and then we can get on with our lives!
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Sam
Novice climber
formerly from Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 01:52pm PT
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What we really need is a few more young, rad, flash in the pan, "I don't adventure climb, "you mean it's longer than 80 feet?", topo's consist of bolt counts, all finished with the sport by 22, wannabe super climbers to set the standards for all the useless old f*#ks over 23. Age, experience or climbing style does not equal either drug or alcohol addiction. Age and experience do not equal being a bumbly. there are still 5.12 sport climbers in their 70's and some darn bold trads in the same age. Gym climbing is fine, sport climbing is fine, trad climbing is fine and all of the above are fine at any age. If you still climb in your 60's I hope you remember the stupidity of your statement.
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Sep 21, 2002 - 01:59pm PT
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Just to clarify, the first edition Supertopo showed the bolts BUT had the following in the writeup:
"There were no rappel bolts placed on the first ascent, and the rap bolts are considered by some to be an ethical violation. THE RAP BOLTS MAY BE GONE AT ANY TIME."
The newer edition does not show bolts.
Greg
PS No, the ASCA will not add bolts to Cathedral, don't even bother asking...
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Mad Bolter
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 02:17pm PT
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I will this fall.............
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IPA
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 01:38am PT
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I am going to camp on the summit of Cathedral all fall and winter. I will kick the ass of any wanna be sport climbing bolter.
We are not talking a big climb. It's easy and fun because it is a trad route. if it was bolted from start to finish it would suck. unless if there was taxi service to the base, catering at the trailhead, and a bar at the top.
Bolt it and you will know you suck.
By the way Bill is getting a lot of heat. Is EVERYBODY sure it was him before you trash him. I will not trash anyone I don't know and the ones I know, to their face not behind their back. Right or wrong.
Bolters are pussies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gumbies...........Wankers.........chicken shits.......you know who you are........
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I won't sell bolts
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 01:55am PT
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Because Of my employer I am not giving my name.
I work in a BIG outdoor store in CA.
When folks ask for bolts and hangers as well as drills etc.
I tell most we don't have any, or if they seem knowlegdeable I ask them what they're doing.
Ive told a few that "you are an as#@&%e if you bolt that.."
I have even had someone who wanted to bolt the topout of a classic local boulder problem. I told him he was a whimp and had no right to do it.
F*#k you pussies, I see you climbing easy sh#t with double racks, you take twice as long cause you have twice the gear and half the guts. Go home and your bathroom.
Whats next bolting class 4 summits, Bishops highballs, all of JTREE?????
In 2002 if you have a drill on Yosemite and you are not replacing unsafe / essential bolts...Know that you are LAME.
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won't sell..
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 02:00am PT
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That was go home and "bolt your bathroom.."
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stinkfist
Advanced climber
local
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 11:27am PT
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MAYBE, JUST MAYBE if you bolt then chop, then rebolt, the chop, this will make way for clean placements. I just thought i'd write something as ridiculous as this topic, If the bolts are there leave them. all you f*#kers that think bolts are stupid and piontless better go and chop every f*#king bolt in yosemite. I hear this topic time and time again. once the "damn" bolts have been placed leave them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 04:00pm PT
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I finally understand that it is "piontless" (sic) to argue, discuss, or debate this issue when you're dealing with idiots like this.
I (naively) thought that we could convince some people that the best poicy is, "just don't add bolts".
Now I am firmly in the chopping camp. Chop, chop, chop, patch, patch, patch. The arguments about desecration of the environment or rock because of chopping are ludicrous coming from those in favor of bolting. What is at issue is the erosion of an ethic that respects the nature of the first ascent.
First-ascentionists don't own the rock, and neither do the self-appointed-public-servant-bolters, but many first ascents took boldness and vision, something I respect. And even if I disliked the style of a FA I would respect the integrity of the route just on principle. I wouldn't be a sniveling-life-isn't-fair-oh-if-I'd-only-been-born-earlier-oh-I'd-put-that-route-up-so-much-better-oh-who-are-they-to-dictate-what-or-how-I-climb-whiner about it. Go climb something else or put up your own super safe super convenient FA. YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO BRING EVERY ROUTE YOU WANT TO CLIMB DOWN TO YOUR COMFORT LEVEL. Climb and climb some more until your ability increases, and if you still can't do it, live with it.
If you want to make the world a safer more convenient place get off the crags. Get a job with GM designing air bags and cup holders.
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DS
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 04:43pm PT
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What is it with Americans and this issue? The Europeans would be laughing at us for debating the merits of 2 fixed rap bolts. Hold on...I'm not claiming they're in right. From what I hear the Alps are littered with fixed bolts and pitons. How did two climbing communities develop such different attitudes? This isn't so much about bolts or no bolts as much as it is about regional standards and ethics don't you think?
I guess I find myself caught in the middle. I don't think the Cathedral bolts are needed but I can't imagine caring enough to chop them. Does that make me a bad American?
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 05:01pm PT
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oop, typo in my last post...policy(doh)
Anyway, I was in the middle too. I have always been opposed to adding bolts, but chopping seemed kind of aggro. I just wished that people would stop adding bolts so that our crags wouldn't be littered with them like those in Europe. But wish in one hand and sh#t in the other and see which one fills up faster.
It's not black and white, but close.
Add bolts = bad
Don't add bolts = good
Chop bolts = gray area
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Ham Slice
Novice climber
Mammoth Lakes (Formerly 7 years w/ YOSAR)
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 06:50pm PT
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Nut-up craganeers, it's a 10 foot 5.5 boulder problem with slammer pro. Drag your pump dummy to the summit, lower it down, down-climb pulling your pro as you go. You'll be more gripped on the dirty friction walk-off than the technical demands of your summit attempt. It's whiners like yourselves that have turned climbing into the pedestrian persuit of today.
And to think, I just earned a stack of tax dollars laughing at you wankers.
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CDD
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 07:29pm PT
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Hi all,
Why don’t we expand the scope of the discussion beyond Cathedral Peak. The Prow was done with 38 holes. It now sports about 60. Zodiac has about 120 bolts. How many did CP drill? How many bolts does the Lost Arrow tip have? 20? I thought Salathe drilled less than 10 holes. Do the same arguments being made about Cathedral Peak and its 5.5 downclimb apply to big wall routes? Bolts seem to sprout on big walls without the controversy we see on CP and Selaginella. Why?
Time for some big wall chop chop?
CDD
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Lance Mosher
Novice climber
Monterey , CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 09:10pm PT
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In my opinion, many of the responses posted on this topic display attitudes which are more detrimental to the sport of climbing than two or three bolts will ever be.
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1 i'd
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 11:00pm PT
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CDD,
Yes! Yes! Chicken bolts are even more offensive than convenience bolts. Chop them all.
Lance,
I think what's detrimental to climbing is the shortsighted attitude that it's only about two or three more bolts.
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Lance Mosher
Novice climber
monterey
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 12:10am PT
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I never for one second thought that this was only about a few bolts. The detrimental impact is from people acting out of spite.
The issue is obviously larger than a few bolts but verbally attacking other climbers will not help.
My biggest fear is that if we don't all work together we will probably see more regulations.
Constructive discussions and education could benefit us all. Name calling etc. only hurts our sport.
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PATAGANJA
Novice climber
space
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 12:31am PT
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We climbers are individuals.
Individuals differ a lot from one to the next.
It's been said that climbing is about no rules.
Bolting is a personal thing but it may be a violation to someone elses ethics.
Who's to judge?
Rebolting , chopping etc. seems to be more about those invovled,kind of a fued.
Personally I'm glad the US. is less bolted.
Bolting , trundling even clear cutting is small compared to nature itself. So don't worry about damage to the rock, it's always changing.
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clean it up!
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 10:16am PT
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What ever happened to caring about the wilderness and at least trying to reduce our impact? You can say all you want about how a couple of little bolts here and there are less impact than the forest service building roads, but it seems to me it's more a matter of our own personal pride and style as climbers. Don't we always spout off that we're among the best when it comes to loving and caring for the wilderness we have left? Why wouldn't all of us aspire to climb and leave less behind WHENEVER possible?
Climbers were doing things in better style and less impact decades ago when they had to do it with hemp rope and hiking boots. Have some class dammit. If you can't figure out how to get back off the top of Cathedral safely without bolts, maybe you oughta get a bowling ball and quit climbing.
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__
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 10:52am PT
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Does that mean that all those sissy big wall climbers who couldnt retreat off of the Nose should get a bowling ball also?? They use stacks of added bolts yet there is no call for them to be removed by the has been alcoholics. If your ethics say that no bolts should be added then it should apply all across the board, right? Why are you so narrow minded and discriminatory?
Why aren’t all you self righteous, self appointed messiahs calling for the removal of the non original first ascent bolts off of El Cap? HMMM maybe to much work for the glory?
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Howie
Intermediate climber
Calgary
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Sep 23, 2002 - 11:07am PT
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Anyone want to go climbing?
Howie.
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Granitewalker
Intermediate climber
3rd Stone from the Sun
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 11:11am PT
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It easy guys, when you find a bolt(s) that you feel is unneccesary just don't cip the damn thing(s) (make an impression on your climbing partners)
ps. don't forget climbing should be fun, not something that gets you aggro.
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mike
Advanced climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 12:27pm PT
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I'm just appalled by how many people were posting on this topic on a WEEKEND!!??? What the hell are you thinking? Why aren't you climbing, it's fall...this is the best time of year! On-line spray boards are for weekdays at the office....
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DS
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 12:43pm PT
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I work hard on the weekends sometimes so I can climb during the week and avoid the crowds. So what!?
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Jon
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 01:10pm PT
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I think there is a difference, although it is admittedly a gray one, between bolting in a place like Yosemite Valley and bolting the the backcountry. Although Cathedral Peak is mightly close to the road, it is in more of a wilderness setting than El Cap. Having said that, I was disappointed when I climbed Zodiac several years ago and found the bolt ladder that bypassed the original arching line of rivets. Sure, I could have skipped them, but their existence made it too tempting for me, a wannabe gumby climber, and it had a minor negative impact on my experience.
I personally wouldn't chop the bolts on top of Cathedral, but I also don't think they belong there, despite having waited behind a crowd slowed to a crawl for the lack of such bolts once this year.
This weekend I discovered that some bozo recently nailed a KB onto the top of the Coxcomb, a summit that is barely class 4 and could easily be rappelled with a simple sling. What kind of person climbs stuff like this with pins and hammer? I spent 15 mintutes trying to remove it with a rock to avail.
Oh well, the sign of things to come. Get used to it.
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ridge runner
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 02:46pm PT
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Cathedral's great either way. Personally when I hit the summit I'd rather rap and spend my time back at camp with a cold one. But what's the truth here. Were these bolts really chopped by a guide with clients. So what's the deal, one hand on the rope and one hand on the hacksaw, or wait till everyone's on the summit and hack em off as a lesson in respecting nature. If you're climbing with a hacksaw on your rack, you're f*#ked in the head.
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JB
Intermediate climber
The Past
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 03:17pm PT
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Shouldn't climbing ethics be a matter of public opinion? Of course there are different camps and historical ethics, but what do most climbers think today? If most climbers support the bolts then whoever chops them is an as#@&%e / if most don't want them then death to the driller! Either way, if you're just enforcing your personal view of the world maybe you'd be better off in one of the major religions.
My opinion? I was glad they were there when I climbed Cathedral. I wouldn't put them there / wouldn't chop them.
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Old Duffer
Advanced climber
Sin City
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 03:22pm PT
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I'm surprised you guys are still talking about this since the bolts were chopped a year ago. Not much else going on out there?
Its a cold, rainy day where I am so having nothing better to do for the moment, I'll weigh in.
OK, I'm an "old guy" (60), I'm not an alcoholic (never have been) and I'm not a drug user (never have been). I climbed the route alone last September (in true whimp style I carried a rope and some gear in a small backpack in case I needed to retreat by rappeling). There were no bolts at the top. I thought the downclimb was a fun way to end the climb. However, I am surprised that a climbing guide would chop rappel bolts on a route used so frequently by beginners who might feel they need them. Seems a bit irresponsible.
I don't think the adding/chopping problem is just about the environment or climbing ethics...I think its about ego. Those of us with the most fragile might chop bolts in an 'I'm superior to them' frame of mind.
On the other hand, maybe he was just having a shitty day.
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Bored Outta My Mind
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 04:29pm PT
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Am I missing something?
My foggy and muddled memory tells me the route ends on the summit. Everyone seems to be referring to the bolts in question as rap bolts and not as the anchor for the last pitch. Without the bolts, you have to set your own anchor. NBD. Why not let your novice/gumby partners rap off the anchor and have the rope gun out of the group do the downclimb?
Years ago, there were fixed pins on the easy route up Eichorn’s, with rap bolts on top. Are they still there? The late great Jules and partner did the route 4th class.
Maybe placing and chopping bolts on established climbs just ain't worth the angst.
BOMM
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Marc
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 05:49pm PT
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Thank you BOMM. "Without the bolts, you have to set your own anchor. NBD. Why not let your novice/gumby partners rap off the anchor and have the rope gun out of the group do the downclimb?" I think this pretty much settles the question.
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imamonkey
Advanced climber
North Fork, CA.
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 06:51pm PT
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lol - true..true.. hey, you climbing aficianados, HEY, if your gonna chop, at least do it with the dignity your skill and reputation command - clean it up man! ugly lookin bolt chopping remnants disgust me *puke* ,dispicable - i fart in your general direction..
remembering seeing them bolts (hey melissa, look at them shiny new bolts thar - lets try em) lowering some friends i took up the peak - tied both ropes together. lowered them alllll the way to the descent gulley (the ropes just barely reaching), and then rap off myself. so the bolts are chopped *so what*... i'd rather have the space them bolts occupied for a seat anyways LOL...
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Minerals
Novice climber
10,
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Sep 23, 2002 - 08:18pm PT
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First of all, this argument should have nothing to do with the fact that Swilliam (Bill) is employed by YMS. What he does on his own time is totally up to him.
Bill and I discussed the idea of chopping these bolts (no hacksaw required, just a wrech; maybe maybe you would prefer 'unscrew & remove') last year but he beat me to it by a week or two. Unfortunately, he did not finish the job. I retured earlier this summer and filled the holes with epoxy (as well as several older holes - this isn't the first episode, and probably not the last).
The reason these bolts were removed (and should not be replaced) is not a matter of ego; it is a matter of aesthetics. To me, the summit of Cathedral Peak is one of the most special places on Earth. I climb to escape society and the masses; when I reach the summit of Cathedral (often alone), I want to enjoy the incredible space that I am in. I don't want to see two FAT NEW SHINY BOLTS and be reminded of the 12,621 people that have been there too. Climbing Cathedral Peak 'aint for everyone.
It is also a matter of preservation, both environmental and of climbing style. I believe the first ascentionist of this great peak was a firm believer in PRESERVATION. Whether you are talking El Cap or Cathedral or some obscure chosspile, bolts should not be added to existing routes. (for more on this topic see: 'Drilling on Established Routes' - a ways back on this forum) What will become of our limited climbing resources if routes are reduced to the level of those who would otherwise not be there? Does every building need an elevator?
If you bolt it, they will come.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
don't hit return...
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 08:25pm PT
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Dammit!!! I hit the wrong button. So much for editing...
...10,911 ft.
maybe
...returned...
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 10:06pm PT
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...wrech is what you do at the summit when you've had a few too many OE's (or suitable equivalent) and you've climbed too fast (hypothetical)...
A wrench usually works better on bolts.
...maybe I should stop spraying/procrastinating/swilling and get to work...
...
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Supadupa
Advanced climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2002 - 11:23pm PT
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Yall dupid and sh#! I rock the house yall....LOL
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Old Duffer
Advanced climber
Sin City
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 11:10am PT
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'Climbing Cathedral Peak 'aint (sic) for everybody' (Copperhead, Sept 23), is an example of the ego/elitism I was refering to. Forcing people to downclimb from the summit (or leave gear behind) by removing rappel bolts might keep some people from going up there in the first place, thus making the bolt 'remover' superior to the others (at least in his mind).
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Spewing Alcoholic
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 11:19am PT
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Hey Copperhead, how many OE’S did it take you to reach the top of CP?
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old and fat
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 11:27am PT
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orig post from Z sez, "Bill Russell pulled the bolts on top of Cathedral Peak last fall and several other routes in Tuolumne this summer"
What were the other routes?
And~~ I see Russ Walling weighed in with his opinions (all good/ I agree/ etc.). But it did get me wondering.... when is the last time you visited said summit? Never? My guess is anything 100 yards from the car is FAR too far....
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Another old FART
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 12:07pm PT
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Very well said. Why should we let lazy alcoholics dictate how we climb?
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old and fat
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 01:12pm PT
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Laughing…..
Hey fellow old fart? I bet Fish (er, Russ) might disagree.
It’s not being lazy, it’s resting until the need to summon forth maximum effort. Just as long as maximum effort does not require venturing more than a casual stroll from the car…
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Old Duffer
Advanced climber
Sin City
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 01:35pm PT
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Sounds like Russ would like climbing at my favorite summer hangout...the Needles, Custer State Park, South Dakota. The belayer can sit on the fender of the car for some of my favorite routes. You have to hike way back maybe 50 or 100 yards for others.
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Sum Yung Gye
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 01:56pm PT
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Hey Copperhead, check out your third paragraph. It's all "I" and "me." Someone pointed out right afterward that your post represents the elitest climber attitude. Makes me laugh. There is nothing more hypocritical than a climber who bolts, protesting bolts ANYWHERE! What may be a "special" place for you, may not be to others, and if they climb 5.3, that's their business, not yours. If you don't like bolts there, then chop them from every summit you've ever sat on, and every face you've climbed on, because I guarantee there are, and were others who didn't need or want them there. I don't give a rat's ass about the FA, as he or she can not lay claim to any bit of federal property. If climbers really cared about the environment and asthetics of the environment in which they climb, they would leave it the hell alone, because whether or not we like it, we affect it. I have never, nor will I ever place a bolt. When they exist, I may or may not use them, but to use them even ONCE, then decide for others if and where they can or can't is as I've stated before, hypocrisy. Why is that so difficult for you elitist ones? I if you don't like it, don't use it.
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jc
Novice climber
CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 02:08pm PT
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Hey Yung Gye-
its OK, don't push yourself too hard. You can come back and climb Cathedral Peak when you feel comfortable downclimbing a 15 foot 4th class section. Wait until you're ready. Just keep working at it and someday you too will be able to do that downclimb without the pussy/gumby-bolts
Until then, why don't you let the rest of us enjoy a summit that hasn't traditionally been all cuddly and user-friendly.
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bob
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 02:13pm PT
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The "if you don't like the bolts, don't use them" argument is so lame. Tell you what, if you don't like a route without bolts, don't climb it.
Why should a lazy old alcoholic fart get to dictate? I would ask why any gumby dickhead with a drill should get to dictate. It's up to the FA.
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Another Old Guy
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 02:29pm PT
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One of the few summit register entries I recall from “back in the day” ~~ this one from ’79?
is when Rick Wheeler (of Wheeler Shoe repair fame- remember them? Him?)
wrote that he banged his girlfriend on the summit of Cathedral Peak.
No bolts marring the summit back then.
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matt
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 03:01pm PT
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Just thought I would throw in a bit of history about the bolts. They where put in durring the summer of 97 (give or take a year, I dont remember the exact date). Before that there was a 6x8 inch alumanum plate bolted to the summit with 3 or 4 very loose, rusty 1/4 inch bolts. I think this was part of an old summit register. There was usually always a bunch of webbing wraped around this old plate that almost everyone was using as an anchor. Some of you guys that have been around a while should know exactly what I am talking about. A friend of mine decided one day that this anchor was crap and someone was going to get killed. He talked to a bunch of climbers about weather he should replace the existing anchor with good bolts or pull it all together. He got responses similar to all the ones above. He ended up deciding to just replace the thing. He said the plate and all the bolts came out easily. If he did it like other bolts he had replaced in the area, he tryed to reuse the existing holes. This involves drilling out the existhing 1/4 inch hole to 3/8 inch, by hand. I think he placed 2, 3/8 X 2-1/2 inch Rawl 5pc bolts with Metolius hangers, making them very easy to pull if someone felt the need to do so. There was probably also some kind chain so the inevitable webbing wad would not appear. Did he do the right thing or not? Who cares, you could (and will) debate this until you are blue in the face. At least he had the balls to go do something about the old crapy anchor.
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Sum Yung Gye
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 03:20pm PT
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jc, your scathing remarks have lowered my fragile climbing esteem. Do you comprehend basic English? Since my point was lost by you, let me reduce it to a 4th grade level.
I don't need the bolts. Most may not. Some might. That is their option.
I'll tell you what, I'll stay off climbs like Cathedral until I'm "ready" if you do the same, that is with any route anywhere that has bolts ok? You stay off them until you are ready.
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Marc
Intermediate climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 03:39pm PT
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Matt,
I think your friend had the best of intentions when he got rid of that junk anchor and installed new bolts, but personally I wish he would have just cleaned the junk anchor, filled the old bolt holes, and not installled fresh bolts.
In my opinion these bolts exist because of a desire for convenience, not a need for safety. An earlier poster pointed out that it is possible (I'm not 100% sure; I've been to the summit only once) to rig a rap anchor using natural gear and have the ropegun in a given party break down the rap setup and downclimb, if the need arises.
My hope is that people will aim to climb with MINIMAL environmental impact.
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BOMM
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 04:23pm PT
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If I were the gubbermint and read this thread, I would immediately ban all fixed anchors for the sole purpose of getting all of us to shut up, quit whining, and get on with our lives. Why can’t we civilly discuss pertinent topics like racing Dolt carts, overpriced festivals, and cheap swill versus weed?
But I can’t help myself. What does a friggin bolt have to do with the quality of the environment or the spiritual aspect of a climb? Do bolts cause ozone depletion? (The methane generated by this thread might.) To me, claiming a bolt interferes with the cosmic consciousness of the summit experience is akin to saying you can’t enjoy sex if your partner hasn’t recently trimmed his/her toenails. It’s just not that important to me and certainly not to her. Cathedral has 900 feet of rock and we’re freaked out about 3/8 inch holes. You guys remind me of my ex-wife.
I still say “Don’t replace them. We don’t need them.”
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Martin Z
Novice climber
Prescott, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 04:43pm PT
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Thanks, Matt, for the background. Good to get the straight story.
Also, I've been contacted by a couple of people asking if I'm "z", the originator of this forum topic. I am not. I've got nothing against Bill R. I haven't lived or climbed in TM since '98. Thanks...
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garyd
Novice climber
humboldt nation
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 06:06pm PT
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I want to talk a swing at the "gumby" notion of why those bolts keep getting replaced. My partner and I first summited CP via the Muir 3rd class route (during our scrambling years). While initially intimidated by the summit block we were sure that, keeping our heads about us, we could down climb the block. And we did - seem to recall the loose bolts and plate/box Matt mentioned. We were not technical climbers, though that trip inspired us to start (that clean southeast face ya know).
CP is now swarming with people. It can be a regular summit block F%$K-fest up there. Therefore, it is expedient (perhaps safer?) to rap off the back while the next anxious leader is coming up the front.
No judgment call - if the bolts are there I'll rap off the back, if not, I'll down climb - we've done both before. Do you use the stairs or the elevator??
Does SAR really "expect" to find bolts up there? I would think not, but if they do somebody tell us about it.
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JC
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 06:14pm PT
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<ul><i>September 7. --Left camp at daybreak and made direct for Cathedral Peak, intending to strike eastward and southward from that point among the peaks and ridges at the heads of the Tuolumne, Merced, and San Joaquin rivers. Down through the pine woods I made my way, across the Tuolumne River and meadows, and up the heavily timbered slope forming the south boundary of the upper Tuolumne basin, along the east side of Cathedral Peak, and up to its topmost spire, which I reached at noon, having loitered by the way to study the fine trees, --two-leaved pine, mountain pine, albicaulis pine, silver fir, and the most charming, most graceful of all the evergreens, the mountain hemlock. High, cool, late-flowering meadows also detained me, and lakelets and avalanche tracks and huge quarries of moraine rocks above the forests.
 John Muir, 1869</i></ul>
My first time up Cathedral Peak, I had to squirm past half a dozen Boy Scouts in tennis shoes who had come up the Muir route unroped. I had to say that I felt a little funny anchoring into the summit cracks with three equalized pieces while these "non-climbers" scampered about with apparent ease.
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Phil
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 07:17pm PT
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Hey, I met some Boy Scouts on top of El Cap last time I topped out. And I'm sure I can find an nice Muir quote to prove he didn't need bolts to get up there either. What is the point of that post?
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Russ Walling
Novice climber
Pick one
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Sep 24, 2002 - 07:55pm PT
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I really just wanted to be the 100th reply to the post... but while I'm here.... I may as well stir the pot.
This thread has some "climbers" calling other climbers egotist and elitist. Well, here is an eyeopener... they are. Face it.... the fact your experience or knowledge base is not up to the standards that the "eliteist" climbers have, makes you less able to make a descision for the "masses". I also believe that 80% of Americans should not be able to vote... why? The are not informed enough to make an intelligent descision for the rest of the people. Carry this over to bolting.....probably 95% of climbers are not experienced enough or well informed enough to make a descision on bolts. Is this view elitist? Yep, because the people making these descisions are better than you. Terrible isn't it? We are not all equal. Want to get in on the descision making process? Get better... get more knowledge.... get more experience... get more sack. Then go chop or place bolts, drawing on your background, rather than some knee jerk safety issue and the lamest of all "just don't clip them" mentality.
Have a lovely day,
Russ
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BOMM
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 08:33pm PT
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Russ,
As always, you posts are mellow and low key. Our “sport” needs a business model. What about…..
The martial arts dudes got it figured out.
White belt: Hopeless gumby
Blue belt: Know sh#t from shinola
Brown belt: Gettin' there
Black belt: Know the basics. Won't kill self or others w/out reason.
After that, degrees of expertise.
Should we have color coded harnesses, awarded only after you and me rate their skills after paying a $200 belt, oops, harness fee?
I think this has some validity. Blue and under can’t buy pins or heads. No bolt kits for under 2nd degree black harness. Can’t go on the big stone without a brown, unless accompanied by a 1st degree black. Lot’s of possibilities. Think of all the “mandatory” sh#t we can sell ‘em. YeeHaw. What a country.
Think of the revenue!
Having fun as I can find it. And a lovely day I am having.
BOMM
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J. Salathe
Novice climber
That Big Wall in the Sky.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 09:01pm PT
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Vy can't ve chust cliiiimb?!?
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tom
Novice climber
the Bee Shop
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 09:03pm PT
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"All we have to do is wait for a couple more old, has been alcoholic/drug addict trad climbers to give their 2 cents worth and then we can get on with our lives!"
bonehead, gym-climber remark that shows you know nothing about Bill. THe dude's rad, unlike most of the fags flailing over the stone these days.
Retro-bolting is fukd up. Get a clue.
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Swill is Swell
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 09:51pm PT
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What’s wrong with all the “has been alcoholic/drug addict trad climbers”? Your momma let us drill. What's your problem?
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Wayne Arly
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2002 - 11:02pm PT
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Well, it looks like this forum has pretty much run it's course. Please, someone, something else...
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Copperhead
Novice climber
Desciple of Pluto, God of The Underworld
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 12:19am PT
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WARNING: HIGH SPRAY CONTENT!
I knew that post would generate a few responses. How fun.
You’re right. That was a lousy attempt to cover up my elitism. Sorry for being such a spewing alcoholic. I did try.
>>>Hey Copperhead, how many OE’S did it take you to reach the top of CP?<<<
Since the route is short and I don’t have to haul, I bring bottles to the base – something a little more tasty like the Green Label (aka Sierra Nevada). Two or three seems good enough to warm me up, though I have climbed it sober... Don’t forget another couple for the base and trip home.
>>>old crapy anchor<<<... Yeah, and weren’t these bolts for the summit register and not intended for a rappel anchor? Who put the summit register there in the first place? If anything, that was worse than two fat bolts.
>>> Forcing people to downclimb from the summit (or leave gear behind)<<< I ‘aint forcing anyone to climb anything. I’d prefer y’all stay home.
>>>...if you don't like it, don't use it.<<< And I have. There are three bolts (spaced throughout the lead (original)) on The RURP Pitch. I didn’t clip any of them. There was a crack so I used it. This made the pitch more exciting and more natural. I could have chopped the bolts but I didn’t. (Uh ohh, was that elitist?)
>>> There is nothing more hypocritical than a climber who bolts, protesting bolts ANYWHERE!<<< I like to drill and I like to chop. Hypocritical??? Contrary to the above statement (my), I have chopped original bolts/rivets on routes (and patched them) because a natural placement was possible directly next to the bolt/rivet (and in the case of shitty Al dowels, the new placement was better). I also chop chicken rivets whenever I see them.
>>> I don't give a rat's ass about the FA<<< That’s pretty sad. Maybe you would like me to climb the WOEML and reduce the hole count by a hundred or so... Those head corners are lookin’ pretty sweet.
>>> It's all "I" and "me."<<< Sorry for so many I’s... I have four.
>>>'Climbing Cathedral Peak 'aint (sic) for everybody'<<< (I) still stand by my statement. If you are not capable, then you don’t belong there. Ever heard of Darwin??? How about Malthus??? This is the story of society. It is everywhere. Reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. (I) am not about to hop on the new Kohl (etc...) testpiece because it is over my head. (I) guess that makes him an elitist because (I) can’t climb his routes...
(I) always use the stairs and avoid the elevators and have never used the shuttle bus to cross campus, irregardless of the weather. (I) intend to write a letter to the U on the wasted tuition and state money spent and (relatively insignificant) pollution generated to constantly (every <1 – 2 minutes @ a stop) drive multiple fat busses in loops to ferry the lazy asses (many it seems...<Moooo>...) across campus to their classes so they can once again sit on their asses. LAME. What happened to WALKING????? Encourage technology over exercise and health. (Maybe Darwin will prevail in the end...)
-=-=-
Right On Russ! Wish I could buy ya a cold one... Long live the Booze Muffler.
To those of you who apply, get the F out of the left lane.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah.......
...just trying to see how much of an elitist bastard I can be.
Reel ‘em in.
...if you leave it, I will booty it.
(wow that was a waste of time, but it was fun)
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HIGHQ
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 01:14am PT
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uuuhhummm.. (clearing throat) "impressive copperhead"
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Tom Burke
Novice climber
Manhattan Beach,CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 01:59am PT
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Im with Billy and Russ, although I wouldn't carry their shoes anywhere...They're smelly.
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Old Duffer
Advanced climber
Sin City
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 09:50am PT
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Told you it was all about ego.
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SYG
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 01:30pm PT
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"I like to drill and I like to chop. Hypocritical???"
Yes.
"(I) still stand by my statement. If you are not capable, then you don’t belong there."
Uhm, exactly what is aid climbing then?
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what a jerk
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 02:05pm PT
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90% of people don't deserve to vote? Wow, yer a hell of a guy! Why don't you go vote and climb in Iraq or China, I'm sure that the voting policies, and probably bolting policies, are much more to your liking.
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the Fet
Novice climber
CA
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Sep 25, 2002 - 03:14pm PT
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This was all figured out in 1971 IMHO by one of the best climbers of all time, and an equally intelligent and articulate writer.
"Preservation: The primary ethical consideration involves leaving a route unchanged so that others may enjoy, as nearly as possible, the creation of those who made the first ascent.
The first ascent principle: A climb is a work of art, a creation of the men who made the first ascent. To make it more difficult by chopping bolts is to insult those who put it up and deprive others of the joy of repeating the route as the first party did it. It is like taking anothers painting or poem and 'improving' it. Better to paint our own pictures and write our own poems. On the other hand, to bring a climb down to one's level by placing bolts (or pitons on an all nut climb) shows and equally lamentable lack of respect for, and degrade the accomplishments of, its creators."
*Royal Robbins Basic Rockcraft
So the bolts on Cathedral must go IMO.
The earlier point about lowering the second(s) and the rope gun downclimbing is good. But the leader could also rappel down the route off a rope wrapped over the summit block going down to the second at the bottom of the other side (toward Eichorn Pinnacle) of the summit block, ala Needles N.D. style. Now you can say 'just suck it up and downclimb' but this is a 5.6 route so the leader may be not a good as you, and everyone is entitled to their own saftey level. But if you have to add bolts then wait until your skills are up to the climb. You can argue ethics but style is up to the climber.
-Steve
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dufas
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 03:47pm PT
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I could be wrong, but didn't Robbins also say that camming devices denigrate climbing? If we're so high on doing it the way the first ascensionist did it, then shouldn't we have to use hemp ropes, big mechanics nuts as chocks and crappy shoes? I agree that bolts should be discouraged in most cases. Just don't necessarily agree with his "work of art" theory.
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bob
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 08:57pm PT
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Robbins' theory and practice were often at odds - Dawn Wall incident, added a bolt to the Muir, etc. He's right though.
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budwieser bottle
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 09:52pm PT
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The bottom line is Bill Russel is an alcoholic loser. He never amounted to anything as a climber. A few insignificant Yosemite routes notwithstanding. Being a rock climbing guide for YCS is not a impressive career progresion. Bill is not someone who I would look toward for principle and moral pathways. Don't impose you weak moral displays on me. Grow up, dry out get a job that matters.
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oe can
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 10:07pm PT
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and learn how to spell
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bob
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 10:21pm PT
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"Being a rock climbing guide for YCS is not a impressive career progresion."
"Bill is not someone who I would look toward for principle and moral pathways."
So it's necessary for someone to have an "impressive career progresion" (as defined by you) in order to be someone to "look toward for principle and moral pathways"? Let me guess - you are a fat silicon valley yuppie who topropes 5.9 on a good day?
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5.9 old fat top roper
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2002 - 10:47pm PT
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bouldering chicks are pretty cool though. they have that mattress on their back...all you need to do is push them over and they're ready to go.
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Budwieser Bottle
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 01:03am PT
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To Bob, Actually I'm a cardiologist at Good Samaritan Hospital in Phoenix AZ and yes I do struggle on 5.10. I hung in the valley and points elsewhere twenty years back. I discovered many years ago that devoting yourself to only climbing is not only quite shallow and narcisitic but quite boring. Hence the rampant alcoholism in valley hangerons. Dude life is a progression march or die. Devoting so much time to a pathetic boob such as Russell is just not worth the effort. He just needs to go away.
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Andrew Klein
Intermediate climber
CA, former Boulderite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 03:39am PT
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For better or worse, I have a picture in my mind that I am looking down on Yosemite Valley from an airplane during the beautiful fall weather. I fly by Half Dome, past the Column, the Apron and the Falls. I go by the Big Stone and there are no climbers on the walls. I fly by Stately Pleasure, Daff, and the Dome with the Fairview, and am surpised to see no climbers in cue. And all of a sudden I hear a noisy chatter, I look a little farther east to see what was the matter. Ahh, now all the climbers appear, armed with Bolts Guns(as in Cliffhanger), crowbars, and $.69 pints of King Cobra beer. On the mighty Cathedral, they gripe and they moan, and live by the philosophy to each his own. The bickering goes on until it turns to brawls. And yes, this war was started by 3/8 inch Rawls. God is saddened and somewhat ammused because he gave the climbers this great beauty, but they have turned there trade into something you would see on Judge Judy. The plane flys by and I can see the new day's dawn, where the bolters and choppers shake hands and Climb On!
Thanks everyone for your post. I miss Boulder after moving from there a few months ago, but now I feel home!
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Old Duffer
Advanced climber
Sin City
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 08:50am PT
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Lets hear more from the self appointed Yosemite Bolt Police about how much better they are than the rest of us.
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bob
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 09:32am PT
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To Bud, I discovered many years ago that devoting yourself to money and social acceptance is not only quite shallow and narcisitic but quite boring. Hence the rampant alcoholism among the bourgeoisie. Devoting so much time to passing judgement on how other people choose to live their lives is not worth the effort. As far as I know Bill's not on public assistance or selling crack to kindergardeners. Not everyone gets to be doctor, lawyer, indian chief.
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Jerry Anderson
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 10:49am PT
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Once again right on to the Fish, though in the last Presidential election how could anybody vote for those two losers.
I have nothing against sport climbing and have climbed with Bill a few times in the Gorge and Clark so he obviously likes sport climbing too. The point is not everybody can do every climb and there should be at least a minimal respect for those who went first. It would be easy to down AID the few feet of 4th class on Cathedral if you are really scared. I think most of the people answering this forum would not hesitate to drag a power drill and a 3,000' cord up the Reticent (damn battery packs don't last long enough, you know)and then say they climbed the route.
There are many add on bolts on Yosemite walls and usually they are not justified either. But 22 add on's on the Prow? Other than beefing up some anchors, which were REALLY bad when the route was still new, can't think of where that many would go unless features have broken off over the years. The Supertopo looks about the same as I remember it so I guess I need to go back again and see.
It does take experience to decide where bolts should be and some times add on bolts are absoutely justified. But as you gain experience and confidence your preception of what is necessary changes. I might place a bolt on a route at my level if, say, a feature has broken off but would never consider it just so I could do a route that in reality is to hard for me. Life is not fair and we were not all created with equal abilities. I know I would certainly like to be braver and more skilled. I don't like Bacher but would never add bolts to the Bacher/Yerian because I can only do well protected 11b. I respect his ability to put up that route. Get the experience, respect those that have more whether you like them or not, then spew about stuff at your level.
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EX YO NOW IN BOULDER
Advanced climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 11:36am PT
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I agree with “budwiser bottle”. What has Bill ever done to warrant his elevated status of a respected climber that most folks could not carry his shoes to the base or for that matter the spewer they call “Fish”? I do know that Bill added chicken bolts to someone’s route on Half Dome. There are hundreds of rad trad, sport, backcountry and wall climbers that are out doing amazing things over the last several years that no one hears about. And do you know why? They are not standing up beating their chests “Look at me, I drank my way up a climb and now I will write some cool stories about it”
I would tend to respect the moral and ethical judgment of a climber who was not a heavy drinker. One who was a respected member of the community. Maybe this has nothing to do with the pulling of the bolts but it irks me that a person like this is pulling bolts. He adss bolts and then pulls bolts, very confusing. He is certainly not a role model for my 2 children.
To Mr. Anderson who wrote “There are many add on bolts on Yosemite walls and usually they are not justified either. But 22 add on's on the Prow?” I counted 10 bolts in Meyers yellow guide and 18 in Don Reids Big Wall Book and that’s not counting the bolts on the added rappel route. But by all these egotistical bolt pullers ethics even one added bolt is to many. Why are they not out pulling the added bolts off of Yosemite’s Big Wall Routes?
Because it is easier to sit around, drink and spew!
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??
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 11:52am PT
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I have a question. Why is ok for Big Wall Climbers to sh#t all over the rock, pull out grass/moss/bushes/trees/etc, drill thousands of holes, pull off flakes, forever ruin miles of rocks with piton scars, leave tons of trash and slings yet 2 bolts had to be pulled?
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dufas
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 12:51pm PT
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Because the point of this whole discussion is to provide a context in which one set of jerks can act superior to another set of jerks. I'm consistently amazed at how single/narrow minded the focus of the majority of the climbing community is.
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Chopper
Novice climber
Chop Shop
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 01:13pm PT
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Better get used to the falls trail. Those east ledges bolts are convenience bolts, not placed on the first ascent, for lazy pussies who would scar the stone rather than walk the walk. Lord Swilliam has set the standard, let's start living by it. I'm chopping the East ledges and the Arches rap stations.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 01:33pm PT
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>>>Lets hear more from the self appointed Yosemite Bolt Police about how much better they are than the rest of us.<<<
Duffer, are you egging me on? I know this is so much fun but...
Sorry, I am too sober and have to go to class soon (and yes, I'm still in 2nd grade...).
Visualize Armageddon,
-The Misanthrope
(this isn't all about climbing)
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sportdood
Advanced climber
brc
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 01:50pm PT
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does anyone mind if I mark the route with tape? I think this might be helpful on said downclimb I intend to bolt every 1.5 feet? also, why is it that on big routes, nobody ever wears bright spandex? I find it useful to be easily identifiable by all the babes who are watching.
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Old Dufffer
Advanced climber
Sin City
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 03:36pm PT
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Copperhead, pretty cryptic comment...or do you just have a thinking disorder?
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 06:22pm PT
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That's because I'm from the crypt.
No, I don't have a thinking disorder (when I'm sober) but I am F***ed in the head.
I think I've made my point.
Peace, Duffer.
Cu (#29)
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Old Duffer
Advanced climber
Sin City
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 06:37pm PT
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Hey Copperhead, please accept my apology. I don't know you and had no good reason to needle you.
I need to get out and climb...get my head straight.
Peace.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 06:40pm PT
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Old Duffer, you can be the first to use the new rap bolts on Cathedral if you plan it right. Tentatively Oct 3rd. Happy climbing.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 06:50pm PT
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Yes, Duffer, I too need to get out and climb.
It's all fun and games right? Peace.
But to Mr. Anonymous, you wanna hava a go...?????? ?????? ??????
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 06:55pm PT
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ps- Duffer, maybe we should go solo the thing next summer together and we can sit on the summit and (I'll) drink a beer and we can laugh. That would be fun.
(you don't mind if I bring my wrench, do you?...)
Cheers
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Troll
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 06:55pm PT
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October 3rd. OK. I'll bring the 3/4" x 4.5" titanium glue-ins.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 07:08pm PT
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No thanks. I'm straight.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 07:55pm PT
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Just thought I'd add this...
These two posts are from another Cathedral thread (this forum) from July 9th and 10th of this year.
Copperhead wrote:
>>>I patched all holes but one (a 1/4" stud still remains cause I wuz too lazy to bring my hammer n' chisel) on the summit of Cathedral on 7/2. I did not have time to 'camo' the holes as much as I would have liked, due to incoming lightning (wussie).
The most recent set of bolts (2 3/8" 5-piece w/ Metolius hangers) were originally chopped by an unknown swiller. He beat me to it. I will do my best to keep this incredible summit in its most natural state. If new bolts appear, they will quickly be removed. Think of it this way: If you don't bring a rope, then you don't need bolts.
John Muir was more bad-ass than all of us!
Maybe we should all use one descent trail so the slope doesn't look like an ant farm. Who wants to designate a specific route??<<<
-=-=-
>>>What I say is true but keep in mind I am just spraying for amusement in my spare time. What do you call it...? Trolling?
Well Porky, I'd love to take out tourons by the dozen with some serious firepower but I don't think it would go over too well with the Rangers. Any other ideas?
Solving problems??? Splitting hairs??? Maybe splitting skulls...
Don't take me so seriously. I 'aint no hero. I'm just out there havin' fun.
Got beers?
Whoa! It just hit me. Maybe this is a job for the removeable bolt. BYORB ...and I won't patch the holes. (wink) Then it would be a removeable bolt farm. This is getting way out of hand.<<<
Shoot, guess I'll need my hammer for those glue-ins...
THE END
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To CH
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 10:11pm PT
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Hopefully your liver will go out so we don't have to listen to you any more and the bolts will be safe.
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crystalpsycho
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 10:16pm PT
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sorry, but caudate lobes are easy to come by these days. you're going to have to suffer a while longer.
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Jim Bob
Novice climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2002 - 11:57pm PT
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To Bud- Who said "Get a job that matters". Just remember that people fit into society in many different places, and it's not a person's job that matters, but how they treat others. I'm not endorsing anyone, just pointing out what I see as an injustice to another human being.
By the way, the bolt ladder is being drilled at this moment...
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ekim
Novice climber
BOULDER
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 04:34am PT
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The federal govt wanted to be the controling factor in this issue about permanent anchors in the wilderness. so to remove new bolts from and old climb is very appropriate if these bolts were added after the first ascent and are not bolts that are being replaced because existing ones are unsafe. for we do not drive on our car tires when they are worn out and unsafe we replace them. so use your good judgement when removing these so called chicken bolts. if you happen to feel the need to place a new bolt on an existing climb then don't get pissed off if someone chops it.
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Harding's Ghost
Advanced climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 12:57pm PT
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"I would tend to respect the moral and ethical judgment of a climber who was not a heavy drinker. One who was a respected member of the community. Maybe this has nothing to do with the pulling of the bolts but it irks me that a person like this is pulling bolts. He adss bolts and then pulls bolts, very confusing. He is certainly not a role model for my 2 children."
You can take yer role model sh#t and shove it up yer ass. The Ghost of Harding laughs at you, breeder.
Keep yer kids outta this.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 02:04pm PT
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I will kick ALL y'alls asses.
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DR
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 05:14pm PT
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To Budman,
"Being a rock climbing guide for YCS is not a impressive career progresion.... get a job that matters."
Perhaps you should provide a list of jobs that do matter so we can see if we're on track with your beliefs.
Are you really as arrogant as you appear? Get over yourself and work on your spelling. Try "progression".
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demented old guy
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 05:28pm PT
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Just a reply to “EX YO NOW IN BOULDER”..
You ask…” What has Bill ever done to warrant his elevated status of a respected climber that most folks could not carry his shoes to the base or for that matter the spewer they call “Fish”?”
I cannot speak of Bill’s status… but Fish Mussy..
… I only saw a small portion of him in action. Usually I was on the ground.
But .. to wit. How about the legendary story of ~~ leading a hair-ball many pitches up Bad Sign… expando flake got so unruly Russ had to add a rivet to reach the belay. He’s so disgusted with himself, he convinces Shipley they botched the job “and let’s bail”. While he’s rapping back down and chopping the rivet, he noticed he missed an enhanced hook placement! A year later, he goes back up and leads the pitch.
Now THAT is putting your money where your mouth is… (90% of us would have stayed on the ground; the other 9% would have used the rivet and still boldly proclaimed their ascent..).
So Ex YO? Fish gets to talk.
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dufas
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 05:37pm PT
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In defense of the feeble Bud, whose career as a cardiologist probably impresses the chicks . . .
this forum is dominated by climbing fools who believe that, because their profession is climbing (whether for pay or not), they are by definition superior and therefore have the right to govern conduct on federal/state/public lands. So, the last group of posts blasting Bud are hypocritical bullsh#t.
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dee
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 06:38pm PT
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more bolts=bad
less bolts=good
wanton drillers=bad
big Bill=good
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 06:54pm PT
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wanton choppers who drill=bad
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SYG
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 07:06pm PT
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An anonymous poster stated this a while back. It's a very good and relevant question. I was looking forward to an honest answer to it.
"I have a question. Why is ok for Big Wall Climbers to sh#t all over the rock, pull out grass/moss/bushes/trees/etc, drill thousands of holes, pull off flakes, forever ruin miles of rocks with piton scars, leave tons of trash and slings yet 2 bolts had to be pulled?"
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Charlott
Novice climber
Lee Vining
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 07:19pm PT
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I want to hear that answer too. They also haven't answered why they don't chop bolts added to big wall routes. And why, given all their superiority, do they feel the need to police lowly 5.6 routes?
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dufas
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 07:26pm PT
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I was climbing Cathedral Peak several years ago when my partner put her hand in a groove/crack towards the first belay and her hand came out covered with human crap. I figured it was OK because it must have been some El Cap studs on a day jaunt . . .
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DR
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2002 - 07:54pm PT
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federal/state/public lands are our lands dufas. dufas=0
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Radical
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2002 - 04:38am PT
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Who this idiot Cardiologist?? Career progression????? What are you progressing to????
I am not sure what kind of Cardiologist you are. Perhaps you hide in an office prescribing ACE inhibitors and Beta Blockers. Or maybe you work in a Cath lab, and follow Open Heart Surgeons around all day.
At any rate, you spend most of your life surrounded by, and dealing with sick and infirmed people.The inner halls of a hospital, filled with germs, sickness and death are your life.
As opposed to a climbing guides life filled with nature, birds, tree's, fresh air, and Mother Earth in all her glory.
I wonder who you think, in all your self importance, a dyeing person is going to remember on his death bed.
The man who took him up El Cap, and who he experienced all the freedom, joy, youth, and awareness of life with.
Or the nameless, clueless, faceless doctor who stuck him and drugged him one more time on the way to that death bed.
Get a clue Doctor and get off you high horse.
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putz
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2002 - 02:29pm PT
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bouldering chicks are pretty cool though. they have that mattress on their back...all you need to do is push them over and they're ready to go.
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barry bonds
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2002 - 11:13pm PT
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#157
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2002 - 12:26am PT
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Not only do some bolts need to be chopped, but some people (e.g. Mr."I LOVE BOLTS") need a good choppin' too.
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ss
Advanced climber
same place as everyone else
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2002 - 11:41am PT
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to the cardiologist , do you really think your job makes you better than Bill R.? are you an M.D.? most M.D.s in your field are pretentious snobs who would operate on an 85 year old grandmother just to keep her alive for another couple of months ....all in the name of making more money!!
Most people on this site are CLIMBERS. Nobody ever regrets not having worked more ,but we will regret not going climbing more(if you are a true climber).
The thread here is not about who you are or what you do for a living its about some rappell bolts that some climbers want and others do not.
Also,as its always been in the climbing game,some climbers can decide to place bolts and other climbers can decide to remove bolts. That being said,its always a good idea to think real hard before you place them or remove them.
I have known Bill R. since 1978 and he is a true climber and also an interesting and entertaing character.As for Bill being a drunk, so what? what do you expect from somebody from Wisconsin originally!
(as a side note,a person above claims Bill is the godfatherof the DLFA, the godfather of the DLFA is Tommy Deuchler, Bill was one of MANY "self proclaimed" presidents of the DLFA, certainly not the godfather.)
Peace and fuk-nes!
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dufas
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2002 - 02:17pm PT
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what's your point DR?
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Ride The Bull
Novice climber
Various doorways on 6th street, San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2002 - 11:53pm PT
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What would you rather be...
A cheap-malt-liquor-swilling "has-been";
Or an over-priced-cabernet-sipping *never-was*?...
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2002 - 02:42pm PT
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Why is ok for Big Wall Climbers to sh#t all over the rock, pull out grass/moss/bushes/trees/etc, drill thousands of holes, pull off flakes, forever ruin miles of rocks with piton scars, leave tons of trash and slings yet 2 bolts had to be pulled?"
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author
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2002 - 03:10pm PT
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What do you mean ruined forever? Runined for who? Do you think the swallows or raptors care about a piton scar? Do you think the tourist care? You can't see a piton scar from the meadow. Do you think ElCap it self cares? The rocks is constantly being changed and altered due to erosion and other natural process's. Look at the base of ElCap and you'll see that rock has been falling down for a long time now.
Exctly how is ElCap being ruined by piton scars?
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dufas
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2002 - 03:54pm PT
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and exactly how is cathedral peak ruined by a bolt on top? not that I agree it needs to be there, just asking.
BTW, what exactly is the "interest" behind bolt chopping? Is it vertical environmentalism? Is it to avoid upsetting land managers? Is it he first ascensionists right to dictate that piece of rock? Is it some amorphous climbing ethic that is irrelevant to anything else?
It would be a great help in this argument to understand exactly what interests were preserving by chopping etc . . .
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Fred
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2002 - 08:05pm PT
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To author who wrote "What do you mean ruined forever? Runined for who? Do you think the swallows or raptors care about a piton scar? Do you think the tourist care? You can't see a piton scar from the meadow. Do you think ElCap it self cares? Exctly how is ElCap being ruined by piton scars?"
Please apply all of your bolt chopping ethics to El Cap and you will see that El Cap definitely cares as much as Cathedral Peak.
Bill’s argument for the removal of the CP bolts was they were not there for the first ascent plus the environmental impact of the holes that the land mangers(NPS) may care about. He said that if everyone goes around placing bolts that the NPS may take a more careful look at climbing, which is what we do not want.
I find you very narrow minded and yes you should care about all the destruction going on up on El Cap as you may find very soon that NPS may be regulating climbing it.
El Cap does care and it should be respected as much as Cathedral Peak is.
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SYG
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2002 - 08:24pm PT
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I agree completely. Every single bolt should be removed from YV, and only afterwards should we whine about 2 bolts on CP.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
#2
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2002 - 10:07pm PT
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Spray Level: pretty darn serious.
You asked so I will reply.
>>shit all over the rock<<
I do not sh#t all over the rock. I use brown paper bags and then I put them in a double plastic bag in a 5-gallon sh#t bucket (plenty of room for long routes or a party of three). I admit that I have tossed sh#t bags in remote areas and I'd bet that you've sh#t in the woods too.
>>pull out grass/moss/bushes/trees/etc<<
Yes, on occasion I will pull vegitation (sometimes nesessary on FAs) but try to keep it to a minimum. If it is not clogging a placement and is just a nuisance, I will leave it there. Care is also taken when dealing with small frogs, lizzards, birds, etc... It is their home and I do my best to leave it that way. Counter-argument argument: How many animals are killed on highways each year? Maybe we should all stop driving cars. Don't get me started about government land use policies or greedy developers...
(Death to YCS)
>>drill thousands of holes<<
Not quite but I'm getting there. Don't forget to subtract the number I chop...
>>forever ruin miles of rocks with piton scars<< (rock...?)
I'd bet that Lynn, Alex, Thomas, Tommy, Todd, Paul, Dean, Scotty, Yuji, Hans, etc... would disagree with that statement.
>>leave tons of trash and slings<<
I make quite an effort to clean fixed schwagg (with minimal rock damage) and slings on any climbs that I do, to minimize the visual impact to climbers and non-climbers.
I was out riding this weekend up in the Black Rock with a buddy. His odometer cable broke along the ride and so we stopped and removed it. I said that I would carry it in my tool pack. He looked at me strangely and wondered why I wanted to keep a busted piece of junk. I replied that I didn't want to keep it but wouln't want to leave it as trash, even though we were in the middle of BF nowhere. He still didn't understand.
Some of you obviously don't understand me (or can't read).
Whatever.
ps- I agree with Bill in that the motive for chopping bolts is the preservation (as much as possible) of the FA.
Cu (#29)
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C
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2002 - 10:27pm PT
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...necessary...
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Paco
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2002 - 06:35pm PT
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¡Asombroso! ¡La conversación fantasmal volvió! Esto interesa muy. Espero quizás continúe sin tanto cólera.
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YeeHaw
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2002 - 06:44pm PT
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It's back
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my name
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2002 - 06:52pm PT
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Yes sir, drill sergeant! Now, I've forgotten what or whom exactly we were slandering. Bolting or Mexicans or Fresno or something...
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2002 - 08:02pm PT
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Was that a 'cool down' period?
Continue on...
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Back Again
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2002 - 08:50pm PT
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I don't care what anyone says. If Bill rebolts the summit, I'll chop it tomorrow.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2002 - 08:59pm PT
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Hey! That's my line. Be careful as to which Bill you are referring to.
There are several threats above stating that these bolts will be replaced on October 3rd. Anyone know if they are back?
Cheers
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old guy
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2002 - 09:04am PT
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i heard fresno is a great place for angry hispanic bolt-choppers who swill OE by the boat load...
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crystalpsycho
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2002 - 08:03pm PT
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alright you peoples, lets see more slander and character bashing of the alcoholic loser.
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Bill Russell
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2002 - 08:48pm PT
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<img src="http://www.4yosemite.com/br.jpg" alt="Bill Russell, Bolt Chopper" border="3"></a><br>
<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="2">Bill Russell, Bolt Chopper<br>
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Copperhead (again)
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2002 - 09:31pm PT
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Swilliam!!!
What a great picture!
Thanks!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 28, 2006 - 12:19am PT
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Are you still on that whisky or what? You want Bill? Email me your phone number and I'll hand it to him. Bill isn't on the internet at all.... that is why sacless bastards love to spray negative sh#t about him, as he is not here to defend himself. This thread is a fine example.
send info to pass to:
russ@fishproducts.com
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 28, 2006 - 04:07am PT
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what slader bill... that guy is funny mother f*#ker! DRINK!!! ALL DAY EVERYDAY!!!
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andanother
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:13pm PT
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anyone know if these have been replaced?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:18pm PT
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resurrection?
the thread?
the bolts?
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bob
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:43pm PT
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Hey Martin, good to hear a voice from down South. I'm not going to agree or disagree with you on Bill's actions, but I will say that for the 3 full years of TMeadows SAR and a couple part seasons I've been a part of we never depended on those bolts being there. In fact, during one specific instance I remeber the subject coming up before the team set out and we took the proper gear because we felt we couldn't depend on them being there. Just had to point that out. I'm not on SAR this year and maybe they have changed their ways. No se.
Coming down South soon to that wonderful place you're at. I'll stop in and say hello and we can debate. Tee hee. Hope all is well. Peace.
Bob Jensen
PS not the other Bob who has been posting if there is any confusion
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Chefclimber
Trad climber
Northern Nevada
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Sep 11, 2006 - 01:03am PT
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Remember several years ago when th forest service wanted to ban all fixed climbing anchors in the backcountry? Did they have a point? I can't imagine the mess that would be left by all the bolt/chop/re-bolt jerks. If SAR had anything to do with placing these anchors, I have lost respect for them.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 02:14am PT
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November 13, 2003
NPS EMPLOYEES SAY PARKS ARE IN DANGER
Lieberman Says Heed The Voice Of Those On The Frontlines
WASHINGTON - Governmental Affairs Committee Ranking Member Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., issued the following statement Thursday in reaction to a Campaign to Protect America’s Lands survey of National Park Service employees:
"Two years ago, President Bush told the American public: 'Good stewardship of the environment is not just a personal responsibility, it is a public value.’ He specifically said he was committed to protecting the parks, calling them 'works of God.’
“The President has not lived up to his words. The results of this survey should be like an alarm ringing in our heads, telling us that the National Parks are being seriously endangered by this Administration’s policies. The people on the front lines are saying that conditions at parks are deteriorating, rather than improving. They are telling us that politics trumps science in decision-making. And they report that their work to protect the parks is being devalued by this Administration.
“According to the survey, 76 percent of Park Service employees rate NPS leadership as fair or poor, while 85 percent give a fair to poor rating to the Interior Department. Further, 88 percent expressed concern that Park Service decisions were influenced by politics and special interests rather than professional experience or science.
“The Secretary of the Interior and the Director of the Park Service should listen to park employees, who see on a daily basis, what is actually happening. The Administration must focus attention on the problems the employees have identified rather than catering to special interests that want to drill for oil beneath National Park Service administered lands or win a lucrative contract. The employees are people, who in the words of one survey participant are ‘more interested in the environment than in making a buck. We believe in the sanctity of the place, the need for wilderness as a healing salve for the soul...’ We must heed their voices if we are to insure the preservation and God-given beauty of these parks for future generations.”
God says " no more bolts "
Buddha says " It's all in you mind"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2006 - 10:54am PT
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As of a couple weeks ago, to anwer that question, there were no bolts on top of Cathedral
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 11, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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The bolts were placed in late 1998 or early 1999 to replace the summit registry baseplate that had been shoddily bolted to the summit decades previously. People had started to rappel off of it, which was incredibly dumb and unsafe. The bolts were not placed on any SAR mission, though I believe that they WERE placed by a SAR site member on their own time, if I remember correctly, as part of the bolt replacement projects that we were all taking up in the Meadows at that time.
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organism
Trad climber
san diego, california
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Sep 11, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Not sure what is better. Two bolt rap stations or ten vintage slings tied together into one big cluster @#ck eyesore. If you have ever bailed off this route for one reason or another you know what I mean.
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Mazzystr
Gym climber
Homeless...
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Sep 11, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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maybe his nuts should be chopped...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 11, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
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Well Bill gets off the river this afternoon at Hite.
Why don't you take it up with him?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
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If you are using the bolts or there cluster on top then you aren't bailing off the route are you...you are finishing it.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Mar 13, 2007 - 12:25am PT
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So what ever happened to the bolts? Did anyone re-bolt?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:08am PT
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Not unless they did so very recently.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:02pm PT
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Good job Bill (if it was you).
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Rudy Rudotis DLFA
Big Wall climber
Barrington Hills, IL
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Jun 30, 2007 - 09:55pm PT
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Jackness now, jackness forever. I have rejoined the University in search for truth. I made the first ascent of Cathedral Point in Montana back in the late '70's with both Tom Duechler and Bill Russell. Through Friedrich Nietzsche and the existenialist view one can transcend petty bragging and take part in a "higher good". A good where the "style and the ethic" of the ascent is as important as the ascent itself. If you need bolts, God did not intend for you to climb there.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 30, 2007 - 10:03pm PT
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If you need bolts, God did not intend for you to climb there.
Well maybe lightning will strike Woody and I down now..
We were out in the heat today with Tucker and the Mayor.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Rudy, Cathedral Peak and Cathedral point (Beartooths-Stillwater drainage) ain't one in the same. I doubt very few here have ever heard of the Montana climb by that name--and now the proverbial cat is out of the bag, thanks for the spray jackness.
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prunes
climber
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Would petty bragging to transcend to this so called "higher good" where the "style and ethic" is so important include lying about soloing a new route in the East face of Tewinot? If you need to lie about a route did god intend you to climb it? Get of Billy's back.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Mike.--secret classic ? Ever climbed in the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness before ? Nearly all of the climbs in the AB described in guidebooks fit this description--not so secret; however, EVERYTHING not mentioned in the guide IS hush hush.
Montana's rock resources are so vast that the few climbers here barely make a noticable visible impact where the wilderness is concerned. I doubt flocks of out-of-staters are going to invade our state and start bagging wilderness FA's--they usually come up and buy a guide and stick to the "classics"--which consumes the rest of their time here.
If YOU are interested in being one of the few daring enough to explore and climb the ABs--come on up and look me up; I'll send you off on the climbing adventure of your lifetime.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jul 21, 2007 - 01:43am PT
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Which one is he?...Damn Drill sargant.....I'll kick his......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jul 21, 2007 - 01:56am PT
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There he is...get him!!!
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 21, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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climbed it for my first time a few weeks ago, didn't even notice hints that there were bolts. Was the first time I climbed something that size that had almost no fixed pro (an old piton on the last pitch was the only remnant of human existance) and it was an awesome experience. In retrospect the bolts would have been a welcome treat at the top, that last downclimb is a bit hairy to do unroped, but I wouldn't take back the experience I had. I am glad i climbed it when it was this natural, but I wouldn't wish for a chop.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 21, 2007 - 08:18pm PT
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Jul 23, 2007 - 12:48am PT
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I think you all are living a bit in the past.
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M.Tea
Trad climber
Utah
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Jul 23, 2007 - 01:02am PT
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climbed it or the first time a few weeks ago. Noticed the chopped bolts on the summit block. No biggie, if you are diced out, just flip your rope over the summit block and downclimb with a belay from below. Done and Done. Folks need to learn some self sufficiency...especially on "alpine" routes.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 11, 2008 - 03:35am PT
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Why?
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jbar
Mountain climber
The Dirty South
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Sep 11, 2008 - 04:32am PT
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If they were already there and have been there for years I don't see the point in chopping them. I agree with not bolting to bring the climb down to your level though. I have often wished for a bolt or two to make me feel more secure but in the end I realize what I really need is a little more experience and skill. Doesn't the park have a policy on old bolted routes and bolting new routes?
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MisterE
Social climber
My Inner Nut
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Sep 11, 2008 - 11:06am PT
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Gee, this hasn't been discussed NEARLY enough!
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| Messages 1 - 207 of total 207 in this topic |
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