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Rockfax
Novice climber
Bishop
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:50pm PT
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"Bill's actions were improper."
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you value.
"He is destroying property that is not his"
Bollox...all fixed gear is abandoned and belongs to no one.
Mick R
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:53pm PT
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The lack of radness of the people placing the bolts, or at least the lack of appreciation for the history and tradition of respect for the ethics of the first ascent is much more relevant.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 10:54pm PT
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Yeah, yeah I know radness is not a word.
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Russ Walling
Novice climber
pick one
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Sep 20, 2002 - 11:10pm PT
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OG writes: (whoever that is?)
>>Unlike yourself RUSS, and your drinking budy Bill who just power down OLD E starting in the morning, i still climb a lot.<<
hahaa! Shows what you know. Next fallacy please....
>>Yes I do have a strong view on this and I might listen to Bill if he were an active climber in the community. But to chop bolts just to piss people off? Come on.<<
Wrong again. Is your opinion strong enough to put a name on it? Seems you just believe the hype and hide behind your computer. Come out come out whoever you are..... we can have a serious conversation when you grow some sack. Until then.....
adios,
Russ
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s
Advanced climber
nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2002 - 11:42pm PT
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its just Bill being Bill , get over it. the bolts were unnecessary!
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The Dude
Novice climber
Truckee
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 05:20am PT
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The Bolts are not needed. Anyone that can climb the route can easily downclimb from the summit. If you can't downclimb , don't do a sierra peak. Also what is this about SAR "expecting" the bolts to be up there, that's bullsh#t. Cathedral is not that hard of a rescue, siters know how to place gear. One more thing, don't mess with Bill, he is the Godfather of the DLFA, need I say more..
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Jerry Anderson
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 10:49am PT
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It is Bill just being Bill and VERY few out there are qualified to carry either Bill or Russ' shoes to the base of the climb. So what if they drink and irritate you, what have you done in your climbing career that makes you so special? Do we now ignore Robbins, Chouinard and the other "old guys" who aren't real active? Is the first ascent of the Nose, NA or Salathe' negated because others did them free with the help of new bolts? I know Russ by reputation only but Bill and the "other" person involved are my friends. It is my opinion Bill is right in this issue.
To the as#@&%es that negetively mention "California" and "old guys", do the names above mean anything in either context? How about Pratt, Kamps, Harding, Bridwell, Hill, Kauk etc forever? Other than Kor who ever did much in Yosemite who wasn't from Calif? Bet you still can't climb with Kamps or Joe Brown (you know, the Brit with BIG balls) and they are in their 70's. Old trads still climb and still climb boldly and aren't even afraid to say their name. Climbing is about risk management, just like driving the freeway, visiting a third world country or dealing with punters who started the route 15 minutes earlier than you did. With some of the sh#t I see with wankers at sport areas, people are perfectly capable of makeing all the bolts far more dangerous than an experienced climber on a run out route at his or her limit. Learn the trade!! Just because you like football doesn't qualify you for the NFL.
Yes, the bolts will probably be replaced. Yes more bolts will be added everywhere and it is often justified and won't be stopped in any case. I did one of the very early ascents of the S. Face of Washington Column in the 60's and there was a total of 5 bolts. I did it again recently and there were more than 20. Same with the Nose, Dihedral and on and on. Probably the best way to deal with it is to go adventure climbing again, in the back country, Greenland, Patagonia....
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Tired of alcoholic spwerers.
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 01:07pm PT
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All we have to do is wait for a couple more old, has been alcoholic/drug addict trad climbers to give their 2 cents worth and then we can get on with our lives!
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Sam
Novice climber
formerly from Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 01:52pm PT
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What we really need is a few more young, rad, flash in the pan, "I don't adventure climb, "you mean it's longer than 80 feet?", topo's consist of bolt counts, all finished with the sport by 22, wannabe super climbers to set the standards for all the useless old f*#ks over 23. Age, experience or climbing style does not equal either drug or alcohol addiction. Age and experience do not equal being a bumbly. there are still 5.12 sport climbers in their 70's and some darn bold trads in the same age. Gym climbing is fine, sport climbing is fine, trad climbing is fine and all of the above are fine at any age. If you still climb in your 60's I hope you remember the stupidity of your statement.
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Sep 21, 2002 - 01:59pm PT
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Just to clarify, the first edition Supertopo showed the bolts BUT had the following in the writeup:
"There were no rappel bolts placed on the first ascent, and the rap bolts are considered by some to be an ethical violation. THE RAP BOLTS MAY BE GONE AT ANY TIME."
The newer edition does not show bolts.
Greg
PS No, the ASCA will not add bolts to Cathedral, don't even bother asking...
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Mad Bolter
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2002 - 02:17pm PT
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I will this fall.............
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IPA
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 01:38am PT
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I am going to camp on the summit of Cathedral all fall and winter. I will kick the ass of any wanna be sport climbing bolter.
We are not talking a big climb. It's easy and fun because it is a trad route. if it was bolted from start to finish it would suck. unless if there was taxi service to the base, catering at the trailhead, and a bar at the top.
Bolt it and you will know you suck.
By the way Bill is getting a lot of heat. Is EVERYBODY sure it was him before you trash him. I will not trash anyone I don't know and the ones I know, to their face not behind their back. Right or wrong.
Bolters are pussies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gumbies...........Wankers.........chicken shits.......you know who you are........
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I won't sell bolts
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 01:55am PT
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Because Of my employer I am not giving my name.
I work in a BIG outdoor store in CA.
When folks ask for bolts and hangers as well as drills etc.
I tell most we don't have any, or if they seem knowlegdeable I ask them what they're doing.
Ive told a few that "you are an as#@&%e if you bolt that.."
I have even had someone who wanted to bolt the topout of a classic local boulder problem. I told him he was a whimp and had no right to do it.
F*#k you pussies, I see you climbing easy sh#t with double racks, you take twice as long cause you have twice the gear and half the guts. Go home and your bathroom.
Whats next bolting class 4 summits, Bishops highballs, all of JTREE?????
In 2002 if you have a drill on Yosemite and you are not replacing unsafe / essential bolts...Know that you are LAME.
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won't sell..
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 02:00am PT
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That was go home and "bolt your bathroom.."
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stinkfist
Advanced climber
local
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 11:27am PT
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MAYBE, JUST MAYBE if you bolt then chop, then rebolt, the chop, this will make way for clean placements. I just thought i'd write something as ridiculous as this topic, If the bolts are there leave them. all you f*#kers that think bolts are stupid and piontless better go and chop every f*#king bolt in yosemite. I hear this topic time and time again. once the "damn" bolts have been placed leave them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 04:00pm PT
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I finally understand that it is "piontless" (sic) to argue, discuss, or debate this issue when you're dealing with idiots like this.
I (naively) thought that we could convince some people that the best poicy is, "just don't add bolts".
Now I am firmly in the chopping camp. Chop, chop, chop, patch, patch, patch. The arguments about desecration of the environment or rock because of chopping are ludicrous coming from those in favor of bolting. What is at issue is the erosion of an ethic that respects the nature of the first ascent.
First-ascentionists don't own the rock, and neither do the self-appointed-public-servant-bolters, but many first ascents took boldness and vision, something I respect. And even if I disliked the style of a FA I would respect the integrity of the route just on principle. I wouldn't be a sniveling-life-isn't-fair-oh-if-I'd-only-been-born-earlier-oh-I'd-put-that-route-up-so-much-better-oh-who-are-they-to-dictate-what-or-how-I-climb-whiner about it. Go climb something else or put up your own super safe super convenient FA. YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO BRING EVERY ROUTE YOU WANT TO CLIMB DOWN TO YOUR COMFORT LEVEL. Climb and climb some more until your ability increases, and if you still can't do it, live with it.
If you want to make the world a safer more convenient place get off the crags. Get a job with GM designing air bags and cup holders.
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DS
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 04:43pm PT
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What is it with Americans and this issue? The Europeans would be laughing at us for debating the merits of 2 fixed rap bolts. Hold on...I'm not claiming they're in right. From what I hear the Alps are littered with fixed bolts and pitons. How did two climbing communities develop such different attitudes? This isn't so much about bolts or no bolts as much as it is about regional standards and ethics don't you think?
I guess I find myself caught in the middle. I don't think the Cathedral bolts are needed but I can't imagine caring enough to chop them. Does that make me a bad American?
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 05:01pm PT
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oop, typo in my last post...policy(doh)
Anyway, I was in the middle too. I have always been opposed to adding bolts, but chopping seemed kind of aggro. I just wished that people would stop adding bolts so that our crags wouldn't be littered with them like those in Europe. But wish in one hand and sh#t in the other and see which one fills up faster.
It's not black and white, but close.
Add bolts = bad
Don't add bolts = good
Chop bolts = gray area
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Ham Slice
Novice climber
Mammoth Lakes (Formerly 7 years w/ YOSAR)
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 06:50pm PT
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Nut-up craganeers, it's a 10 foot 5.5 boulder problem with slammer pro. Drag your pump dummy to the summit, lower it down, down-climb pulling your pro as you go. You'll be more gripped on the dirty friction walk-off than the technical demands of your summit attempt. It's whiners like yourselves that have turned climbing into the pedestrian persuit of today.
And to think, I just earned a stack of tax dollars laughing at you wankers.
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CDD
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2002 - 07:29pm PT
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Hi all,
Why don’t we expand the scope of the discussion beyond Cathedral Peak. The Prow was done with 38 holes. It now sports about 60. Zodiac has about 120 bolts. How many did CP drill? How many bolts does the Lost Arrow tip have? 20? I thought Salathe drilled less than 10 holes. Do the same arguments being made about Cathedral Peak and its 5.5 downclimb apply to big wall routes? Bolts seem to sprout on big walls without the controversy we see on CP and Selaginella. Why?
Time for some big wall chop chop?
CDD
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