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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Hey kid, hope you've changed your hairstyle!or do you even have any hair these days! hehehehe
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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"I don't see anything bold about free climbing an A2 route, especially with pre-placed pro on the existing route, or by taking a power drill to place bolts on new ground. "
In 1994, it was considered bold.
As Tarbuster said, most people here get it, except maybe you and Karl.
Just as an aside - do you consider spending 1/2 hr beating an equalized mess of copperheads into the rock, then hanging a screamer from them, all 3 ft above the last mess - that's bold? I'm not sure I can accept "no" from you, because you've spent the last decade spewing all over the internet about it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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There's one thing I sure would like to apologize for. (even though I'm not sorry in the sense of "I wouldn't do it again or think I was wrong)
Kurt and Coz had a visionary adventure and were big figures in some large climbing and living. It would have been nice for this thread to be a place to celebrate them and slap them on the back for all that they are.
I feel it myself, and so am sorry to inject the element of "wait a minute...." into this thread.
I don't think it was uncalled for, given the statement I referenced and more that I won't search out.
I'm glad some folks understand that some vivid smack talkin' can be the spice of two sides of a conversation/dispute/clarification and hope it doesn't detract from the bro-hood that many feel with the Man and the Kid General.
Kurt wrote
"Again- this is what i love about
america, everybody has a chance to SPRAY. ST is like the deli but with a bigger audience!"
Yeah man! It wasn't like we sat around with prissy manners and talked all nicey talk.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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JLP, You are misunderstanding Karl.
I don't personally agree with rap bolting, but some of the run outs that Jones had to do on very technical ground after the ropes were pulled were just as bold as the guys working pre-protected pitches on Muir. Jones did the bottom half ground up with no powerdrill.
But coz is painting one route as bold and adventurous and the other as a criminal blight. That's the crux of what Karl is getting at.
My feeling is that in both cases, the outcome was known. Not necessarily the "freeness" of it but the completion of it in one way or another.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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"JLP, You are misunderstanding Karl."
I think my understanding of Coz is clear. He places the ground up ethic as more fundamental and important than preplaced gear. The gear he relied on was placed into the rock ground up by an aid climber, versus top down doing whatever. It's a simple difference that is clear to most in this thread, I believe. You can certainly disagree with him on a "boldness" basis, however claiming ethical hypocracy is, as he said, Red Herring.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"But coz is painting one route as bold and adventurous and the other as a criminal blight. That's the crux of what Karl is getting at. "
Sort of, but I'm also responding to Coz's blanket statements regarding the death of boldness and style, when they have been dished up in spades in recent years.
Here's one that shows the old style has been matched and far exceeded
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=701579&msg=701579
That's a bold way of hitting El Cap free
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/lostintranslation/
"On August 30, Ivo Ninov of Bulgaria, and Nico Favresse of Belgium, established Lost in Translation (V 5.12b/c), a new 10-pitch free route on El Capitan. This is the first time a ground-up, free first ascent has ever happened on El Cap.
Lost in Translation climbs the far east face of the Captain, climbing some pitches on the Waterfall Route, Get Whacked, Darkstar, and Chinese Water Torture, according to Ninov. “I will recommend it; it has a lot of high-quality climbing,” says Ninov, but only skilled climbers with strong lead heads need apply: most of the route involves run out 5.10+ climbing on small gear. "
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=395705
"Today (Monday) Alex Climbed the Salathe with no falls. He started at the bottom and went to the top in one push. He combined the three pitches from Sous le Toit ledge to the top of the Roof and also combined the next two pitches (the headwall cracks) from the top of the Roof to Long Ledge. He did the Monster Offwidth pitch. Alex led all the pitches. The way we did the climb was by spending a day hiking bivy gear up the East Ledges and rapping down to the Block on the Salathe. We then started at the bottom of the Salathe and Alex led all pitches to the Block. We then rested a day on the block using our previously stashed bivy gear and then climbed the remainder of the route the next day."
Course Soloing Half Dome was bolder than that.
and the Rostrum and Astroman have been soloed in the same day with pretty much the same gear we've alway had, our bodies and a pair of shoes.
Just sayin it loudly in response to the attitude reflected by the quote I've pasted above in other posts. The present is not lame, modern climbers have not lost their spirit, don't be a cranky geezer Coz, people look up to you too much for that.
I'm just saying, the torch is still burning for those who love torch light. To each his and her own
Peace
karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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JLP
Rap bolt then free = pre-placed pro & previewing.
Aid then free = pre-placed pro & previewing.
One is not more "criminal" than the other.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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To be fair, the guys said one aided and placed the pro and the other freed.
Doesn't mean it was all run out and scary, but it seems it wasn't previewed
Peace
karl
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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All in all, it was pretty bad ass, any way ya slice it. I mostly avoid free climbing up there. I doubt I'm the only one.
Maybe I'll change my name to "Dangles in Aiders".
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Cool ass thread! Pretty inspiring to hear the stories straight from y'all. Thanks for taking the time...
I was a little bummed to read that my generation has no soul and no chance at being bitchen as y'all....but it sure takes the pressure off a bit!!! LOL
Carry on, cause I'm loving this! More stories and pictures!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Karl,
yes, I know that one aided and the other freed. It's still a "subtle" form of previewing. I don't think that they passed no beta on to one another.
Most guys would inform each other a bit.
"Yeah, that little fold up there seems to be the worst of it, but there's a solid lock above that little lip...."
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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"...let's call a spade a spade. Pinkpointing an El Cap route is not Free Climbing an El Cap route."
Google "lynn hill great roof nose" and you'll find this:
"On September 14, Hill and Sandahl headed up one of the world's greatest pieces of rock. The first day they free climbed 21 pitches up to 5.12A with many in the 5.11/11+ category, to the Great Roof, using the chiseled Jardine variation on pitch 14. The next day Hill pre-protected the Great Roof, worked it, then redpointed it. Sandhal said, 'Lynn would stem over her head in the crux. It was totally wicked.'"
I wouldn't want to be the one who tells Lynn that Pink-Pointing ain't Free Climbing.
Hmmm... hung by my own petard it would seem, eh?
Although I guess I could use Coz's argument that my morals may not make any sense to anyone else but at least I have morals and they are firmly held and that's the argument I'm making and I'm sticking to it. ;-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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"That's a bold way of hitting El Cap free "
Karl - I can understand a couple euros not understanding the difference between the talus field and the wall, but I was figuring you would know better.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Survival,
I don't know either of them that well, I've never met Coz and I haven't spoken to Kurt in at least 25 years but I trust their desire for adventure and challenge. I would bet they arranged the gear a little bit to best protect a free climber but I would also bet they didn't let slip any details of the pitch. Maybe if there was some death block up there somewhere but nothing else.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Fair enough Mark, I just don't know.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Coz
I've made my point and am ready to move on (although it get sucked back in easy)
I just don't quite get it, i really must be dense. Folks were doing shady tactics back in your day (by you standards) and today too. I'm assuming now when you write
""It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.
Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method."
and stuff like that, that it's sorta inflated deli spew and we should just understand it's good spray and move on?
That's not the only time you've lashed out at "Modern Climbing" either. Thing is, climbing outside of what Coz likes happened during your time and the furture as well.
Or are you repudiating that speech now?
I don't need to hold your feet to the fire until you cry "Ok Ok" we can move on, but I just couldn't let it slide the first time. Sorry Bro
Peace
Karl
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Seems to me that in earlier years most all the good lines got plucked. To put up a new line nowadays sometimes tactics have to change. I'm not saying us old dogs have to change our attitude or opinion, but really thats what it is, old attitude. No disrespect meant for dudes still stuck in their decade. Times change and the young bloods are still aggro and going to make things happen regardless. I know if I could climb 5.13 I would take a whirl at the route for sure.
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Gene
climber
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IF the point of the Muir/Shaft effort was solely an ascent of EC without weighting or yarding on gear, Coz & friend would have pre-inspected the route and wired the crux moves. They didn’t. We all are aware of how they made their climb. Preplaced pro was used [edit: occasionally] and they got shut down near the top. Notwithstanding the preplaced pro, the outcome was never certain.
Moving over to SFHD, in that climb preplaced protection was also used. But once the decision was made to go top down, the outcome was never in doubt.
I see a difference.
gm
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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To put up a new line nowadays sometimes tactics have to change.
Like what tactics will we see (or have seen)? You mean like lacing trade route cruxes like the Nipple pitch with fixed gear, or placing bolts on an unrepeated aid pitch? Not talking about the Muir, or anyone in this thread...but other places on the Cap on new free link-ups...
f*#k those tactics.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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I find it confusing when folks dont understand the difference between ground-up and rapp and drill. Is rappelling climbing or descending??? I guess I just dont get it.
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