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the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 2, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
this is my favorite shot from our attempt to free the muir wall in 1994. We went up there equipped old school style to have a real good time. Greg and Scott eating out back oven pizza for dinner and sipping on beer, this is the way to go if your going to haul...



ks
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
I see no beer. Maybe "gatorias", but no beer. You guys probably did this thing sober.
Thorgon

Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
That is so stellar, love the Yellow boombox!!
And pizza on the wall? Living very large man!!!

Thor


Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
Luxuriating on Chickenhead Ledge- good for lounging, worse for sleeping. Damn if that food doesn't taste twice as good when you've earned it!
Walleye

climber
El Portal On the Merced Riviera
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
No wonder Spudsgrove couldn't send the thing. Too busy porking up on the wall.....
couchmaster

climber
Jan 2, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
Great pic Kurt! Got more? Bring it onnnnnnnnnnn!
Brutus of Wyde

climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
Hmmm. Chickenhead Ledge ain't on the Muir. For that matter, neither is the Shaft. Seems to me you tried to free a different line, for somewheres around a third of the Captain.

Not to belittle your fantastic effort, which was way beyond what I could ever conceive of attempting.

But Muir it wasn't.

"Truth in advertising"

Cheers Kurt.

Brutus
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 2, 2009 - 10:09pm PT
Brutus,

Very good point, never freed the Muir, we climbed a new route to the right Called the Shaft, never added bolts to the Muir, just pulled out old sh#t and replaced with fatties.

The Muir Wall does not go free, we never claim it did. Never touch the upper third of the route, don't believe all you read!

We did however almost pull off the only ground up FFA of El Cap. We couldn't do the 13d pitch because we where out of time, food and water. Got it on two hangs after 13 days, in a row, of climbing.

We did have booze and a bit of green tea, to soften the ledges. I'd have to say I'd like to see one of these modern yahoo's pull off the first ground up FFA ascent of The Captain; what we old guys tried 14 years ago.

Or does anybody care about style anymore?

Scott,

PS. The Shaft, traverse left from the Muir, a one hundred foot run out 12a on chicken heads atop the shield headwall. One of the best pitches on earth. Done in about 40 minutes by the Kid.
marty(r)

climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
Coz/Kurt,
Did Justen Sjong and Rob Miller talk to you guys at all about their free line on the Muir? Justen gave a fantastic slide show a few years ago covering their early attempts--before they'd finished--and it seemed like their efforts diverged from the Shaft quite a bit. Anyhow, you guys--Eppi included--were doing something pretty amazing up there.

Any photos of those really awkward stem/wiggle pitches and the stylee Kinnaloa bag?
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:07am PT
The Muir Wall

the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 07:02am PT
actually we did attempt the muir from the ground, on sight starting @ pitch 1. We freed it to pitch 16, where we then busted right for a pitch leading back to the muir. then @ pitch 21 we went right into another set of dihedrals that were not in any topo. Found an odd bolt or two in those 6 pitches. Then we got to the level with Shield head wall and the last pitches looked too thin to get our fat fingers in so....

We flipped a coin and i went left across the shield head wall, super cool airy, scary .12a pitch with very little gear and i stanced a bolt or two and ogt us to the ledge. HAuling all the crap we had across the headwall took all day and drained us. so it was pizza and the last of our secret stash that got us to bed that night. This was part of our final 13 days on the wall and by the time we got to the stopped pitch we were toast.

What we went looking for and found was adventure, pure and simple. Not having ever done the muir we had no idea when or where we would get shut down, but did not care as each day another pitch would go down and the climbing just got better and better. We were not the first nor the last to take the power drill on the big stone and i have NO regrets of replacing all that sh#t hardwear for good bolts.

The best part of this adventure was sharing it with two old friends who shared the same vision and desire to seek adventure and not dog this route into submission.

Here is Greg cleaning the head wall traverse..



and an eppie photo of scott on pitch 17- .13- sic face traverse!



Enjoy the photos....
ks
Prod

Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
Jan 3, 2009 - 07:21am PT
Hey Kurt,

Great pic and history, thanks.

What was the fine for using a power drill on ElCap?

Just curious,

Prod.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 07:33am PT
$2000 each.
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Jan 3, 2009 - 07:57am PT
I've seen an awful lot of criticism of style. What kind of "style" was the power drill??
hossjulia

Trad climber
Eastside
Jan 3, 2009 - 08:12am PT
wow, you guys must have had a great time, I've never seen a smile like that on Greg.

great photos, any more?
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Jan 3, 2009 - 08:13am PT
Great pictures Kurt. I remember you quizing me some about the route more specifically the upper dihedral pitches before you guys went up there at the trade show (Was it in Reno then?) Keep this thread alive with more pictures and tid bits about the ascent, this thread is killer!
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 08:19am PT
T2- you did give us great beat and moral support for this endeavor.

As far a style- the power drill became my tool of choice when i got to use JB's for the first time in 1988. So i had no qualms about using it on this route as an efficient means to replace the many old bolts up there. Is it a crime- yes. Did we break the law- HELL yes. Is the Valley and El Cap a wilderness area as stated by the wilderness act- HELL NO. Hard to be a wilderness area worthy of wilderness protection when 5 million people drive by el cap every year. So again- i have no regrets and i would do it all over again in the same style. Don't let the drill over shadow what we went up there to do- ground up on sight like the first ascent.

ks
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:23am PT
So did Tommy Caldwell follow the same line as you guys when he freed it? Seems like you guys laid the groundwork.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:42am PT
Yeah, that power drill deal was a bunch of bullsh#t. What? Did they also fine you for taking up that tape player? isn't that mechanical? What about that frikken computer camera? Why the drill and not those?
You guys got hosed.
Awesome job on the route though.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:51am PT
Studly,

Another good question, Tommy did the climb in the same style we did with one big difference. He rapped in and rehearse the crux pitch. After all it's only two pitches from the top. Once he had it dialed he return to the base and free climbed to Mammoth, fixed to the ground and then fixed to the grey bands, then him and Nick Sagar jumared to their high point and freed to the top.

Basically, we climb a new route call the Shaft and Tommy and Nick freed it. Tommy now claims he freed the Muir with a small variation, the traverse to Chicken head ledge and the Magic Mushroom.

Whatever, Tommy's effort was proud and he's a better free-climber than I ever was, but he should say it like it is and give credit to those who came before him.

One thing we did was climb from the bottom to the top, no rappeling from the top to rehearse, people just do what ever it takes now. Kurt and I had the stone master as mentors, we respected the adventure, what's happening in the Valley now seems like a big ego trip, where the stone is beat down, until she gives it up.

Harding didn't rap down the Nose to see if he could do it, why should we, it's cheating, all my FFA are ground up.

coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:58am PT
PS, I'll answer all your questions about the climb, but if this become a bolting debate I am out of here!



survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:00am PT
The new mentality seems to be sport crag.
But the adventure is still there, and plenty of it, for the ones that choose it.

That being said, a power drill wouldn't have been my pick.
You guys are plenty badass without it.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:15am PT
I would say to the young climbers out there, that a day will come when looking back becomes your climbing. Your bodies are not as strong and your minds not willing to justify the task. You will find a job or a wife/husband, or just decide to do something besides climb.

I look back on my climbs in the Valley with great pride, I gave the rock a chance, I climb with a great deal of respect for those who would come after me and those who came before.

It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.

Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method.
OTCGENO

Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:38am PT
Hey Scott,

I remember doing Free Blast with a friend and running into you on Mammoth Ledges. You were kicking back with the tunes and resting up. Way cozy. I was and still am impressed with your style and ethics. It matches my own. I think it must be part of our generation and the climbers we looked up to.

Gene Mayo

P.S. That single static line to the ground was awesome!! We hit the dirt in about 15 minutes.
bob

climber
Jan 3, 2009 - 11:37am PT
COZ wrote
"It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.

Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method."

No one has values and all you have are soul-less? Seems like stong and ignorant words that are grouping all active 1st ascentionists as one crappy group. Bummer.
Bob J.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 3, 2009 - 12:02pm PT

One thing we did was climb from the bottom to the top, no rappeling from the top to rehearse, people just do what ever it takes now. Kurt and I had the stone master as mentors, we respected the adventure, what's happening in the Valley now seems like a big ego trip, where the stone is beat down, until she gives it up.


Max and Mark would have easily been the first to archive the first free ascent (ground up, with EBs and old sh#t for gear), had they accepted just any style. I think one of the Skinner/Pianna criticisms was the style they chose was to get it done no matter what the tactics were and then get it published so as to make a buck on it. Since Jones and Hudon had kicked ass earlier and refused to lower their style despite being so close, I think bystanders and other climbers saw the Skinner/Pianna thing as a freak show of compromise and falsehoods when they looked at what some real ballsy dudes had earlier done. Todd Skinner was a great guy, fantastic human being, so it may sound like a criticism...but it's just laying it the way it is and is the truth.

Mark and Max kicked serious ass, and with even the new Fires as a new addition would have probably cranked it out.

BTW, F* that drilling criticism, no one ever thought you ever overdrilled anything Kurt, and it's real sh#t when within viewing distance the hypocritical Park service is running earthmoving equipment and paving the sh#t out of the place (new pullout by Nutcracker for instance). You guys are pretty amazing and everyone knows it. Of course, think of this: had powerdrilling been legal, Todd and Paul would have had many more "free" routes up there (I think that disturbed Galen Rowell when they went up to the Cirque and did exactly that with a powerdrill in a very remote area)! :-)

Appreciate the extra pics! Eppi shoots serious good stuff.....damn.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 3, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
I fairly well agree with all that couchmaster.

Everybody gets criticized.
Even Max and Mark were sometimes criticized for doing short pitches.

Stay with us here COZ.
We really do want to have your input into the history of this stuff.

*Yes let's hope we don't get into a bolting dustup and lose sight of some good historical reportage*

As well Coz, not to say your views don't matter, they DO, but maybe if you lighten up just a teeny weeny little bit on the current generation's doings, this thread won't get gunked up by lots of rabble.
(After all, the new kids are gonnah do what they're to do)
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Jan 3, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
"F%ck that drilling criticism"

How about just "F%ck that criticism" ? It seems everyone wants to criticize everyone elses style and hold their own as the "True" way it should be done. It's not valid if you rehearsed the crux, fixed lines, rapped in, blah, blah, blah. The point is why knock others when your game has holes in it. I know mine does. But I did it without a power drill.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 3, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
Truth is Coz did plenty without a powerdrill too.
An overwhelming respect for the stone throughout the majority of his climbing, I think.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 3, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
Absolutely Scott’s record is by and large very clean.

But this is just human nature; when someone stands too tall (or is perceived to), a certain number of onlookers will take offense and respond by looking for chinks in the armor.

Also, it is ART.
And there's plenty of room, and need, for constructive & critical appraisal.

I mentioned this to Kurt in another thread and I think he gets it.
(not that I’m the grand poobah of decorum or anything)
A little humility goes a long way to maintaining an even keel in all this reportage.

Stay with us COZ.
Stay with us COZ.
Stay with us COZ.

Cheers,
Roy
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Jan 3, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
Roy you are the Grand Poobah in my book.

When I asked earlier to keep this thread alive I sure didn't think it would head in this direction. Lets get back to some pictures and tales about the challenges of the climb.

We had one of those outback ovens when we went into Proboscis. What a killer unit to cook with. I wish my scanner wasn't broken I got pizza pictures too.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 3, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
Indeed PIX!! Love it.

Tar, you are certainly one of the grand poobahs..just with a couple chips like the rest of us. I always enjoy your commentary, well thought and written without coming off all judge-like.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 3, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
CHIPS ???!!!???
I ain't got no chips homie.
WTF

Oh right, you meant THOSE kind, the little round plastic ones, like for poker.
Let 'em fall where they may...

But wait...

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/12/messages/1113.html

[Let the Chips Fall Where They May. Never mind the consequences: speak your mind or do what you think must be done. You can see where the idea came from in a 14th-century proverb: "Hew not too high lest the chips fall in thine eye."]

[let the chips fall where they may:
No matter what the consequences, as in "I'm going to tell the truth about what happened, and let the chips fall where they may." This metaphoric term alludes to chopping wood and is usually joined to a statement that one should do what is right (that is, the woodcutter should pay attention to the main task of cutting logs and not worry about small chips). [Late 1800s]]

So....... anyhow

More pictures please.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
"I'd have to say I'd like to see one of these modern yahoo's pull off the first ground up FFA ascent of The Captain; what we old guys tried 14 years ago. "

It's been done hasn't it?

You guys were and are studs, but quit yur whining about the new generation. There are bold and talented folks that have matched and exceeded you standard. You can credit showing the way but you sound like geezers whining about "kids these days" and things going down hill. How about the free solo of Half Dome, the bold free climbs on the falls wall and the FA of an El Cap route in a push onsight and free over on the right side?

You don't have to slander the present to honor the past

Peace

Karl
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
”like geezers whining about "kids these days"
 That’s what they are Karl. And so are we (geezers at least)

” You don't have to slander the present to honor the past”
 It achieves just the opposite…

And we're all still kids too: “no you said it first” …”she started it” ….


More pictures please!
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
"Mom..she's reaching onto my side of the car again!"

Chips: As in chips off the old stone, or a fine antique rocker with a couple chips in it....

The current generation are a fine, hardpulling group of guys and gals. But, just like we did, they sometimes evolve to the side or even a step back as they're trying to move forward.
The generation that came before sometimes slandered us and tried to get us back on the "right" track, thus we do it to those that come after us. Newness is not always the best just because it's new. Oldness is not always superior just because it came first.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
Thanks, but don't attribute too much ethical clarity to Max and me. We did rap down to the cave on the Rostrum to work the Headwall before attempting to free climb the whole route. That sort seems to me to be much like Tommy rapping down to work that .13d pitch on the Muir/Shaft and then going back and starting from the bottom. I don't see how one is okay and the other is not.
I can't really see ragging on Skinner and Pian for their ascent of the Salathe. Am I mistaken or hasn't Coz ever been sport climbing? Isn't one a larger version of the other?
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
I didn't expect many would understand what I was saying.... so in other words, what's being done now is worlds harder than what we could have even dream of. We just never thought of adopting the current tactics being used.

Our attempt would have been a winner if we had rap from the top, stashed food and water, but we where not willing to do that. I was only trying to express we had rules we places on ourselves and in retrospect, I feel better about failing and trying in good style that winning at all cost.

Just sharing my feelings, not getting down on the current scene. It's just different not better or worse. In the end it is what me, Kurt and Greg experienced, it is our experience, if you like to hear about it ask.

If you want to talk about power-drills, I am not into it.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
Coz,
What kind of drill did you have?



Ahh just joking.

Proud effort man.

If you have any other pics of the climb, post 'em. Some of us would really enjoy a chance to see them.
Mike.

climber
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
Nice topic...thanks KS and Coz for the photos and explanations.

This to me underscores a great aspect of climbing: That each climber is basically free to define her own version of it.

You guys seemed to be after much more than a route when you left the ground--you were in it for the pure elixir. That was a good reminder to all of us to look at the process and its details, which to my mind, is really the essence of rock climbing.

Cheers...
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
Different styles for different generations. Each conforms to the preceps of the day, and pushs the envelope as they see it, opening the path for the next crew. Myself, I'm waiting for a sport route up Fitzroy, just me and my grigri. :)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
Great thread and photos - let's see more.

So you guys used a power drill. Why didn't you hand drill? Also, how many bolts did you place in total? Did you replace any old bolts with new as we do today, or were they all new? Any anchor bolts, or only lead bolts? Did you put in any completely new bolts? Were they in new areas of the rock, or on the existing route?

What year were you up there? I was on the Muir in May 2001, and we were climbing slowly and running pretty dry. I spotted, swung over and scarfed three two-litre bottles of water tied to a bolt that wasn't on Muir Wall, and figured they were about three years old, though I can't remember why. I seem to recall it was to the right of the big dihedral near the top, maybe six or eight pitches from the summit. Wasn't somebody up there in around '98? Can't remember...

Cheers,
Pete
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/chip-on-your-shoulder.html

The word chip has several meanings; the one that we are concerned with here is the earliest known of these, namely 'a small piece of wood, as might be chopped, or chipped, from a larger block'.

The phrase 'a chip on one's shoulder' is reported as originating with the nineteenth century U.S. practice of spoiling for a fight by carrying a chip of wood on one's shoulder, daring others to knock it off.

This suggested derivation has more than the whiff of folk-etymology about it. Anyone who might be inclined to doubt that origin can take heart from an alternative theory. This relates to working practices in the British Royal Dockyards in the 18th century. In Day and Lunn's The History of Work and Labour Relations in the Royal Dockyards, 1999, the authors report that the standing orders of the [Royal] Navy Board for August 1739 included this ruling:

"Shipwrights to be allowed to bring [chips] on their shoulders near to the dock gates, there to be inspected by officers".

The permission to remove surplus timber for firewood or building material was a substantial perk of the job for the dock workers. A subsequent standing order, in May 1753, ruled that only chips that could be carried under one arm were allowed to be removed. This limited the amount of timber that could be taken and the shipwrights were not best pleased about the revoking of their previous benefit.

Hattendorf, Knight et al., in British Naval Documents, 1204 - 1960, record a letter which was sent by Chatham Dockyard officers to the Navy Board, relating to the 1756 dockyard workers' strike at Chatham. The letter records a comment made by a shipwright who was stopped at the yard's gates:

"Are not the chips mine? I will not lower them."



In 1830 the New York newspaper The Long Island Telegraph printed this:
"When two churlish boys were determined to fight, a chip would be placed on the shoulder of one, and the other demanded to knock it off at his peril."




More pictures please!!!
Flag'em, Scan'em, Post'em Kurt!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
Coz wrote

" so in other words, what's being done now is worlds harder than what we could have even dream of. We just never thought of adopting the current tactics being used. "

My point just being, that plenty of folks are doing WAY hard in GREAT style these days, and plenty aren't.

Same as it ever was.

Meet the new climbers, same as as the old climbers, cept more of them.

BITD Skinner and Jardine did things different than Bachar and Croft. Often, different things.

Harding and Robbins climbed different.

Same today.

You guys had your own list of sins but many, many proud sends. You say you're not dissing the current generation of climbers but the words read differently. If you say you mistyped, that's another thing.

Peace

Karl
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 3, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
So, Coz, if you had gone back, ground up, a second time, and done the .13d part. Would your second ascent, the first free ascent, have been less satisfying to you?
Ottawa Doug

Social climber
Ottawa, Canada
Jan 3, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
Awesome pics and story. Thanks a ton! It's a route I have yet to do, but I do see it in my future. Not free though and just the original.

Cheers,

Doug
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 3, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
Mark,


I must say I thought of it and so did Kurt. But climbing all those hard pitches and then sending the 13d seemed miles away from possible. I really think if we had just camped out on Chicken head for about another couple weeks we could have done it.

People told me to just rap in and then red point that hard pitch and I would have done the FFA, but that tactic didn't seem worth it or valid to us.

I do not know if you read my previous post but Tommy and Nick only freed it from atop fixes lines to grey bands. So the whole climb done in a push would really be something, especially if the party doesn't rehearse the final crux pitch. I think that is a next great challenge in El Cap free climbing.

Just get out of your car, shoulder your haul bag and climb the thing. That would be old school and proud. It's all prep and ready for the on-sight.






Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 3, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
A ground up, almost but not quite by a whisker FFA of any line on El Capitan is impressive stuff. Even now, let alone a decade or more ago. Particularly as the Muir team was scrupulous about their style and route, in keeping with the style of the first ascent of the Muir. Not all El Cap free climbers since seem to have emulated that.

Many modern 'free' ascents of El Cap depend on extensive rehearsal, cached supplies, changes to the nature of existing climbs (added bolts, tick marks, etc), sieging, (sometimes) major variations to the line, and on and on. By on-sight ground-up standards, not really free at all. Though I wouldn't fault anyone for not exactly following the line of a pre-existing route, given the differing contexts of aid and free climbing - as long as the climbers are clear as to what they've done. If you've freed say 90% of ABC route, with variations for the rest, it seems reasonable to say you've freed that route.

I've always figured that the golden rules of climbing are to minimize or eliminate your impact on the natural and human environments, to be scrupulously honest with yourself and others about what you've done (and how), to respect the styles and traditions of the places you're climbing, and to ensure that there is some challenge relative to your ability. (And have fun.)

The replacement of existing bolts using a power drill was in all the circumstances not inappropriate, despite the fuss that was made. (Or, perhaps, the NPS looking to make an example of someone...) Trivia. They could well have hidden the drill a pitch or two below the top. The absence of a "smoking gun" would have made it a hard case to prove. And it was a public service to replace the bolts.

ps Kurt - thanks for the pictures and story. I remember well your visit to Squamish, and Kickin' Access, in 2002.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 3, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
Coz,
Yes I did read it but maybe I didn't understand fully. Did they, at one point, have fixed ropes from Gray ledges to the ground? That does seem a bit much.

How hard is the climbing up to Mammoth on the Shaft? No one would ever complain about a "free" ascent of the Salathe or Freerider for fixing to Mammoth and then rapping off for a day or two.

I can see your desire for adventure and challenge but I can also see the desire for a free ascent of El Cap. For me, and you, there is a line where the adventure and challenge dies. I suspect the line varies from route to route and obviously person to person. The IDEAL, of course, it seems without doubt, is to walk up to the base and climb to the top, with no excessive foreknowledge (you guys DID have a topo of the Muir and, just like Max and I did, no doubt parsed it for all the information it was worth) without falling or hanging on gear.

Ah, well, we are only human. Evolving, I hope.

Cheers
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 3, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
Nice.

……………………


I should clarify:
My links to the phrase finder tool about such things as “let the chips fall where they may” and “a chip on the shoulder” aren’t really meant to be incendiary as regards this thread.
Although to a certain degree, they do apply, hehe.

Wandering thread drift really.
Survival/Bruce Birchell just got me thinking about it.


Here’s the last one I’ll cloggg pipes with, Lisa just got me onto it:

“put up your dukes”

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/put-up-your-dukes.html

[It is suggested to be of Romany origin. This belief comes from the Romany word dookin, meaning fortune telling or palmistry. H. Brandon, the editor of Poverty, mendicity and crime... To which is added a dictionary of the flash or cant language, 1839, lists this meaning in the book's glossary:

"Dookin - fortune telling."

The palmistry association does link dooking with hands, but, that aside, the evidence to support the Romany source isn't very strong.]

[What we do know is that put up your dukes was known by 1874 - the first record of it that I can find in print is in John C. Hotten's 1874 edition of A dictionary of modern slang, cant, and vulgar words:
"Dooks, or dukes, the hands, originally modification of the rhyming slang 'Duke of Yorks,' forks = fingers, hands... The word is in very common use among low folk. 'Put up your dooks' is a kind of invitation to fight."]

I especially like this one:
[Samuel E. Chamberlain's My Confession, circa 1859, also makes the link between dukes and hands/fists.
"I landed a stinger on his "potatoe trap" with my left "duke," drawing the "Claret" and "sending him to grass."]


And as it happens the three phrases did sequence nicely.
........................end of silly thread drift.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 3, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
Coz, Kid, your ascent and the style that you employed, is what it's all about, to me, and really, why I climb at all.
There have been other things done, up there, that are amazing, in their own idiom. Different tasks, though.

That other controversy? i've taken my Bosch up more than one pitch before, too. I also use higher tech ropes, these days, than the goldlines I learned climbing, on.


That bust, was a career move by someone who, though he has good qualities expressed in any number of other situations, some of which I have shared in, will always be remembered by some of us, as the one who attempted the most drunken ascent of Deto's Durrance route.

Accusers are people too.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
Mark,

The climb Kurt, Greg and I, did was actually three routes. It started with the Muir Wall to the Grey Bands, then we climbed a new route we called the Shaft to Chicken Head ledge, about ten classic pitches. From there we took the Magic Mushroom to the top.

There is a complete topo in an old issue of climbing. Tommy and Nick climbed the Muir to Mammoth rapped and rested, then climbed to Greybands and fixed lines to the ground and rested, jumared lines and repeated the Shaft to Chicken Head, and finished on the Magic Mushroom. They had rapped from the summit and rehearsed the crux pitch (on the Magic Mushroom) prior to their ground up push.

The Muir wall was wrongly named as the route we climbed, and Tommy claims to have freed the Muir, but that is simply not the case at all. I am not calling anyone a liar it's just all very confusing. Tommy and Nick did the second ascent of our climb not the FFA of the Muir Wall.
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
Just see ....

They climbed that big rock with their bare hands ....
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
Tommy was working the route with lines to Grey ledges. Don't know anything about their final push.

Funny thing, Triple Direct has not had a free ascent although every inch of it has goine free.

PEace

Karl
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 4, 2009 - 12:18am PT
”Just see ....

They climbed that big rock with their bare hands ....”



That’s brilliant!

All this talk about style, past & present attitudes……
In the end that is just subtext; it matters and it is interesting, but it’s not the core of why we spend time on the forum.

Scott Cosgrove:

You and Kurt have the tiger by the tail here:
A thread is opened on a terrific adventure: a historic ground-up bid at free climbing the Muir Wall.
Nearly everyone on this forum is a climber and uniquely interested in this stuff.
Yet few of us have even attempted such a thing.

We want know what it was like being up there; what kind of unique obstacles you were presented and how you overcame them.
We want to hear about changes inside you that happened only in that place under those circumstances, due to any one of the many constraints: stylistic, physical, teamwork-wise, time span .... whatever.

Maybe just pick one pitch, one afternoon, one particularly weird or thrilling state of mind and tell us about it!
We'll follow up with more neat Hudon-like questions about the basic gig of livin' large.
Take us there, share with us just a glimpse of that thing we all really dig.............
Climbing those big rocks with bare hands.
Sewellymon

climber
.....in a single wide......
Jan 4, 2009 - 01:02am PT
what Roy said
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 4, 2009 - 01:21am PT
Here here. I dig your thread drift Roy.
And tales of climbing big rocks with bare hands too!
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:09am PT
More etymology, Tarbuster! Maybe you could start a "climbing etymology" thread...
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 08:26am PT
wow, i did not think i would stir up an ethics issue here. but then again, this is rock climbing.

I respect all that has been done before and after my day in the sun. What Tommy and the rest of this generation is doing on el cap is amazing and something i could not have imagined during those 3 months we worked this project. Mark and Max were an inspiration for my climbing and Todd and Paul's ascent made free climbing on el cap possible for me to attempt.

what i wanted to do was show the first ascentionist the respect by attempting this route in a similar style. TM and Royal set the standard that we all hoped to follow. So it didn not make any sense to me to do the route on aid first and see what could go free. Again it's really simple- start @ the bottom and work your way to the top. Fix lines to work the route to a certain high point and then pull the cords and send. And have a good time and haul lots of good food and other treats to make it a "plush adventure"

Someone asked: why not hand drill and how many bolts and where?
I had just finished El Sendero Luminoso in the Potrero Chico (15 pitches, all sport ground up 5.13-) and this is the mode that i had been in since 1990. Drilling quality bolts on quality routes. Mostly ground up and some rappell (rifle, clear creek, shelf road and the potrero were my canvas)!

Scott and i felt all the belay bolts we encountered were sh#t, so naturally we wanted to replace every station. We never added a single bolt to the AID line of the Muir. We added a few lead bolts to our variations.

why not hand drill? Been there done that for 8 years. When the best tool for the job is in your van you are going to use it. We were not the FIRST nor the LAST to power drill on el cap! This does not make it right but it is reality.

I wanted adventure and that is what i got. I also got a lot of fun out of it, some bad but most of it good. I was climbing with two old friends on a route that i started looking at in 1988. We did not know when or where we would get shut down and that was what kept it so exciting every day! I have pushed the sport climbing thing for years and there is not as much joy in an FA when you have worked it to death to send it (Slice of Life).

so my goal was to find adventure and mystery again and that is what we got plus and $2000 bill to go with it!
so enjoy the post, the pictures and the stories and let's keep this about adventure and the mystery of FA's!!!

another fav photo:
Greg and Scott chilling on chickenhead after a sic traverse got us there and an epic haul session for all our crap!




KS

the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 08:29am PT
My bad_ this photo is the bivvy ledge before we traversed across to chickenhead.
This next pitch was the most amazing pitch on the route for me. Unclimbed ground across the Shield head wall. When i did the shield in 1986 with Rick Lovelace i was scared silly on the head wall and now it was time to free climb across it! I will always remember the feeling of anxiety and then elation on this traverse!
KS
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 08:36am PT
here is the start of pitch 27- the 5.12 traverse across the shield head wall.



ks
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 4, 2009 - 09:40am PT
Maybe one of you wizards of the internet could post my article, Variations on the Muir.
It's in an old issue of Climbing with the Kid on the cover.

I will add to that story if people like or want to hear.






Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 4, 2009 - 09:49am PT
That traverse looks sick. I have to imagine that some of the scariest or problematic pitches don't always fetch the highest ratings. Seems like lots of the major features on El Cap free routes are connected by thin 5.12 slab that's got to be frustrating for some cause, like a cat, you just can't hang on by brute force.

PEace

Karl
Captain...or Skully

Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 4, 2009 - 09:53am PT
That's some good stuff, there, Kid & coz.
BrassNuts

Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
Jan 4, 2009 - 10:06am PT
OS free climbing across the Shield headwall... makes my sphincter twitch just thinking about it... Great stuff, cool pic.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 4, 2009 - 10:48am PT
You know, I don't really want to get into an ethics debate, but I'm having a hard time with Coz taking points off of Tommy's ascent for fixing to Gray Ledges and then the Kid saying "during those 3 months we worked this project".

So, is this correct? In your last push, you had worked the route to a certain level (for almost 3 months) but you started from the ground, hauling all your gear, food and water, free climbing along the way, at some point you started climbing new ground, continued on in fine style, got to Chickenhead ledge, had to aid a few moves and then climbed to the top.

3 months working the project? I don't see much difference between fixing ropes to the ground from Gray Ledges and spending three months working the pitches up to there. I know that if I worked something for three months, I'd have it pretty wired and would be able to climb it pretty effortlessly.

Is that right? Maybe reading the article would be helpful although I'm sure I don't have it.
marty(r)

climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
Jan 4, 2009 - 11:02am PT
Wow, I walked away for a few days and this thread exploded--Hudon weighed in, Roy got all etymological, and the Kid is making sphincters twitch. Full Value!

Coz, I doubt you remember me but I repaired the corners on your big green (?) double ledge just after or before a work gig with some Navy Seals. You and Dicker were over at the Animal Nickname guy's place in Paradise and it was close to 100 in the shade. It was nice hearing about your adventures.

So, how does the Sjong/Miller route differ from The Shaft? I wish Tim Kemple'd post up or link up his photos. They're insane.
Mimi

climber
Jan 4, 2009 - 11:15am PT
Yes guys, this is rich stuff. How refreshing to get the story firsthand with full honesty. It will be a trip when the next party does it like you suggested, Coz. The on-sight flash.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 4, 2009 - 11:49am PT
Mark,

I am not taking anything from Tommy, only stated the style he and Nick climbed the second ascent of our route. Why is just stating a fact getting down on some one?

I think Tommy is one of he best climbers the world has ever seen for what it's worth, he and Nick did a prouder ascent than ours. That said they did rap in and rehearse the last pitch prior to the ground up attempt.

Tommy and Nick never hid this fact and where completely forth coming in their report of their ascent. Please don't look for drama.

My point was a ground up no fixing ascent of the Shaft has not been done, and that my friend would be something. The Muir wall does not go free and that would be something cool as well.

It is hard for people to understand why me and Kurt, would try something ground up, as if starting on the bottom and climbing to the top is some strange tactic. I think rapping in and rehearsing is taking the sport out of it and reducing the act to an anything goes mentality.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 4, 2009 - 11:57am PT
I totally see your point about the rapping in from the top thing. That's really your big sticking point. It would have been totally the balls to have climbed from the ground, knowing that you have the weight of one of the last pitches being the crux on your mind, never having seen it before, get there, and crank it. Yeah, I can see your point. Good on you, man!
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 4, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
Kurt,

incredible photo of the traverse! That thing you have your right hand on looks pretty positive:-)

Bruce

ps - though it seems like the generations debate happens all too often, I think it is still worth having, from time to time, as it gives us all a chance to think about why we climb and the style we are using.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 4, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
Great effort and a fine outcome. Good stuff!

As bhilden said, it is still worth having the debate from time to time. We have to try and form our own game, even with unwritten rules.

It is interesting to me that coz can come down so HARD on Robinson and Jones for rap bolting with a hand drill (legal),
but not be willing to discuss having a powerdrill on El Cap, (illegal) I'm not saying either is better than the other, just that if you want to slam dance one of them, you have to entertain some incoming about the other.

Again, I have great respect for all you guys.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 4, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
You guys are drama queens. can we just talk about the climbing. I am all for power drills. I helped get their use legal through permit in my home crag of Joshua Tree.

My problem with Doug and Sean was rap bolting a big wall, not the way they drilled their bolts.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 4, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
hmmm........
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Jan 4, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
Exactly...stop bagging on everyone elses style because yours is also whacked.
Captain...or Skully

Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 4, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
That's a valid point coz, makes ALL the difference.......
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 4, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
Oh man, I've done the tourist route up the shield headwall, left this suburban schoolteacher shaking in his blue meanies. I can't imagine freeclimbing up there, cool shiiet!
drljefe

climber
Toostoned, AZ
Jan 4, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
Core
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Jan 4, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
I've seen ground-up routes that are terrible routes, and I've seen top-down routes that are really bad as well. I've climbed and loved routes of both varieties. Some of this ground-up argument is just a way of saying, 'ground up is harder,' which is true. Whether it's somehow more moral or ethical, well.... I know some 20-35 foot bolted routes that were put up from the ground that will make you shake your head...in disgust. And I know some top down routes that are full on dangerous, and beautiful.
I don't really care how other people are doing it, as long as what as left is nice. But I gotta say, the Muir Wall free adventure by coz and kid was amazing. Luck Fober, though.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 4, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
I'll echo what Jay Breaux just said....

That’s the way my voice-activated software picked it up…how you like that JayBro?
*Could be the new you, maybe only the beret-clad coffeeshop version of JBro or something*
(and I never even did the Shield, but you'all get the idea)


Okay here’s the cover,
Who’s got the article on hand?
(please scan each page at 700 pixels wide and save at 200 ~ KB)



Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:26pm PT

Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
I remember this shot from when the article was published. Whoa!

Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:29pm PT

Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:39pm PT
"stemming and kneebars," looking at the photo, I always thought that looked like my kind of pitch...
Walleye

climber
The Pillored Entrance of the Same Mansion
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
Thanks for the scan Mike Bolte. I never saw that issue. Coz's point about the chainsaw in the woodyard and the power drill are well taken.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
Three cheers for Mike Bolte !!!

Coz on the 24th
Kurt on the 27th

Outstanding shots from Epperson.
Can't wait to start reading.........
This SuperTweako™ gig really shines sometimes.
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
Anyone got a scan of Tami's cartoon after the controversy erupted with the "Cosgrove and Smith blow dead goats" letter to the editor?
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 4, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
eww! now we're talking...
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
So who was the rogue sar informer?

Weird? I heard it was a climber that made the complaint about the drill but I never knew it was a sar guy.

Who was it?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 4, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
Dogpile on the rogue informer!!!
Heck, the perp prolly is a member of the TacoSalad™
Two, three steps away tops.....
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Jan 4, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
Sweet now instead of this thread being an ethics debate it can be whitch hunt. :)

Thanks for bringing back the article Tarbuster and Mike. Eppies photos are freaking killer. Nice words as well Scott. Adventure Baby that is what it is all about!!
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jan 4, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
Hi,

For me this event was kind of heartbreaking too. It is always a real shock when authority finds its way into special and almost private realms and to find them “on” a big wall is frankly creepy. It is like discovering your partner is CIA or something.

Most of the time we know that “they” are otherwise occupied what with all their other crazed pointless points of interest. Like speeding, vehicle reg, and what they imagine is our Great American Drug War, another really productive American theme, spending many many billions on nothing other than authority-for-itself.

Mike B. did us a favor deciding on posting the Climbing article here!! In current context, their transgression is pretty minor, the devastating outcome is not in scale to the issue. As usual. I am sorry their historic ascent had to turn out this way. For them and for us. All those years ago.



'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 4, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
What's with all the pre-placed pro in the photos? I thought you guys said you climbed it ground-up? Or did you aid the pitch, and then free it? But you can't call it a free ascent if the gear is pre-placed, can you?

After you worked the pitch to get the free moves, you pulled out all the gear, then led it free from the bottom placing the gear, right?
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 4, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
I'll keep checking and if some one wants to talk about something besides soap opera drama I am happy to share.


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 4, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
"Lance the surfer guy was the informant."
Surely you can't mean...

The one from Apocalypse Now?
I never would've figured him for that.

[edit]
(oh cripes .... now a non sequitur post ....what to do)
Either I self-destruct this post or leave it because it makes the thread all the richer.
Kofi Donny Annan

climber
darkest of africa
Jan 4, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
F*ck that Lance guy

But also those Tools. Acting all climber bro until they see the goods, then they pounce.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 4, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
Don't get out of the boat, never get out of the boat...
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Jan 4, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
I think that line was more like

"DON'T GET OUT OF THE BOAT, NEVER GET OUT OF THE F*#KING BOAT"
Walleye

climber
The Pillored Entrance of the Same Mansion
Jan 4, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
Absolutely goddamn right!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 4, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
Just a question and not meaning to imply any judgement:

After the bolting bust, I remember a round of apologies and "we were wrong" speeches. Maybe I'm wrong but sort of doubt it.

Now I hear "We did nothing wrong. We stand by our actions 100%"

I'm sure there was pressure from many sides for contrition. I'm just wondering what the process was like becoming the fall guys for the demon called powerdrilling and how ya go from doing it, to apologizing for it, and then defending it again.

Again, I'm just trying to learn how these things happen so I'll be wise during my next screwup. Not sayin anything about rite and rong here.

Peace

karl
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2009 - 07:35am PT
KArl,
Yes there were the apologies as i was sorry to get busted and cause a stir. I would still do it the same way and still stand behind our intentions to get good bolts in the rock. this was 7 years before the ASCA. The nose and may other routes of the day were equipped with power drills (cookie monster).

It was a heart break to work so freakin hard and in the best style we could muster to do this route and then not free that one pitch and have the rangers go undercover and spend a ton of YOUR money to make an example out of 3 rock climbers.

and to answer pete's question- why the pre placed gear. We aided each pitch to clean the grub out of the locks and then go for the onsight to speed up our efforts. 32 pitches takes a long time to free, so i would aid cozies free pitch and he would go for it sight unseen. they call this pink point i believe and this allowed us to move a bit more quickly. the goal was to climb each pitch free and not spend the whole year on it.

again, the key here is having never been on the route in the first place the goal was to find a big adventure and have FUN doing it.

is it perfect, hell no. was it fun, it was until the summit, and then a big bummer. next to losing my father to cancer, the biggest bummer in my life.

now can we get back to climbing and story telling?
ks
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2009 - 07:37am PT
yea! my post made it to 100!
Now if i could get you guys to take an interest in the mt top mining that is destroying West Virgina and get that post past 100 i would be doing the climbing world a favor by showing you what happens in my back yard.

Clean coal is a myth and we still need it but please don;t chop down the mountains to get it!
ks
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 5, 2009 - 07:42am PT
Thanks for your response, Kurt. I speak as one who retired from trad free climbing some time ago, and never took up sport, so I don't understand anything about pink or red points. Sorry to be a dumbass, but can you please help me clarify my thinking:

You each aided and cleaned the other guy's pitch, so each free climbing leader had not been up there before. Did you leave the gear in place, then lead the pitch clipping the pre-placed gear for protection? Is this a pinkpoint? Is this considered free, or knott?

Please provide a link to the West Va. coal mining thread. I'm a caver, I care.

Cheers,
Pete
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2009 - 08:01am PT
Pete - it is was it is and they stated what they did. Go better it, or stfu.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 5, 2009 - 08:13am PT
Gotcha. Just read the magazine article - a great story! I especially liked the part about hauling all the gear up the wall, and living like kings. Forty minutes to jug to Mammoth with a fifty-pound load is truly amazing. I would absolutely LOVE to see some photos of your "supply chain" - all the dirtbag Camp 4 reprobate free climbers trying to figure out not only how to operate a pair of jugs, which many would not have initially been familiar with, but to do so for a thousand feet while carrying a fifty-pound pig.

Once you get it figured out, it only takes about twenty-five minutes to remove a rusty quarter-incher, drill out the hole to 3/8" and put in a new fatty bolt. I'm glad power drills aren't allowed up there. I'm relieved you guys didn't drill bolts for pro next to a C2 crack like what happened above The Ledge on Dihedral Wall.

I was also wondering, along with Karl, about the apparent change of tone? Weren't you guys required, as part of your sentence, to deliver lectures about the evils of using power drills, and didn't you apologize hand over foot again and again? But then, if I read it properly here in this post, you say you wouldn't have changed anything given the chance, or words to that effect? [Apologies if I have misread or misinterpreted, but that's sort of the feeling I got, or did I miss something?] Or did you mean, it was a great learning experience, and you were glad to have had it, and wouldn't have changed anything in spite of it?

I have problems accepting a pinkpoint ascent as being a legit free ascent, however. If you ever had the chance to watch the Hubers working their free ascent of Zodiac, they were making HUGE runouts and making multiple even huger falls before succeeding. They told me they only placed two of pieces of fixed gear, which were a couple beaks near the base of the Nipple pitch if I recall correctly. Maybe it's time for Tommy to give The Shaft a go?

But it's not relevant so much what one person thinks about pinkpointing a pitch - I'm an aid climber these days, hence I have made a career of "cheating" my way up the wall by standing in aiders - what's important is that the style of ascent was clearly noted in the magazine article.

54 days! Woo-hoo! Now THAT is proud!

Cheers,
Pete

P.S. Do you have any sherpa references you could share with me? Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 5, 2009 - 08:18am PT
But it's not relevant so much what one person thinks about pinkpointing a pitch, what's important is that the style of ascent was clearly noted in the magazine article.

Exactly right.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 5, 2009 - 08:40am PT
I'll comment tonight out the door to work.
JakeW

Big Wall climber
CA
Jan 5, 2009 - 08:59am PT
Maybe I haven't read carefully enough, but no one ever seems to know why some people(like me) work, stash, etc. when free climbing long routes. On send day, ITS THE MOST FUN! I don't like hauling, dangling in my harness, dinking with gear, or any of that type of stuff. I like effortless free climbing. Even if I was good enough to onsight an El Cap route, I've learned that really hard onsights aren't what I enjoy the most. When struggling through a challenging onsight I don't usually feel like a very good climber...I'm usually botching everything and suffering extensively. Those are great experiences, but the most fun for me is to walk up to a huge beautiful wall and FLOAT it, climbing like I've always imagined I could, without any hanging in my harness, hauling, jugging, etc., and hopefully no falls. I'd rather have previously done all the work and suffering, and then have a FANTASY DAY. Oh, and I don't care what anyone thinks about my style, I just hope they're doing what's most fun for them! It seems like Kurt and Coz were...thanks for decades of inspiration guys!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 5, 2009 - 09:04am PT
Okay so Coz can write!

“judgment is facile” that starts it out pretty nice, but heck, for a “know it all” that’s easy to say. Haha.

The next bit that answered my first question, was about the prior Kurt/Coz partnership in the earlier years, so that’s in there and tells the story pretty well.

This is good:

“We soon learned to spot which parties would succeed and which would fail. Those to fail took their stress out on each other and only looked down. Those who made it were laughing, having fun, and only looked toward the summit”

“Then tempers flared” ……. “Epps called a meeting and nearly abandoned ship”

Ha!
Three cheers to Epperson for midwifing the adventure!!!

.......................................

Too bad about all the dustup concerning the use of a Bosch.

Aside from that, as far as any particular criticisms go (warranted or otherwise), just think of publishing or the art world, academics, & medical research. Everybody’s work is subjected to scathing reviews and extreme criticism from peers. It is just the way we humans seem to do it. A certain degree of criticality, cast with productive intent can be good.

‘Pretty darn cool adventure altogether.

This was the year after the The Nose was freed by Lynn yes?
I don’t quite recall how the timelines of these two ascents overlap. I think Lynn did her one day push in '94. Either way I guess it’s pretty obvious that Lynn worked her last pitch from the top down (gulp, I have that right I think?) and you guys decided not to do this.

 Concerning her free ascents of The Nose, any other sort of comparisons, overlaps or things that at the time affected you guys?

 What other El Cap free attempts had been happening just before or after your experience (early - mid 90's) that somehow frame the history of all of it and likewise informed your choices & thoughts about style?

 And last, (for now), since this article was written, have Coz & Kurt enjoyed any more climbing experiences together?
bob

climber
Jan 5, 2009 - 09:05am PT
Ahhhhh Jakey! That's why you floated FR in 13 hours. Soooooooooooo, come south and climb small stones with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice to climb with someone who knows what they want and doesn't give a hoot as long as its not hurting others or dissing their style. I just have to buck up and get in shape so I can at least try and follow some of that sh#t.
All you big wall free climbers rock, to me at least!!!!
Bob J.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2009 - 09:23am PT
"If you ever had the chance to watch the Hubers working their free ascent of Zodiac, they were making HUGE runouts and making multiple even huger falls before succeeding."

That's wonderful, but what were these two doing in 1994? I'm thinking they were clipping fat bolts at some sportclimbing euro-shitpile. Free climbing on El Cap is a big f*#king deal and doing it in the late 80's and early 90's was even bigger. If you haven't worked up to at least one of the hard V 5.11 routes out there, your comments here are armchair at best.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 5, 2009 - 09:39am PT
Maybe that's just Pete's way of pointing out that people are still doing it in bold (maybe bolder) style in Yosemite and El Cap these days.

Not to take away from Kurt and Coz's accomplishments. Unfortunately there were some comments that seemed to lament the forgotten spirit of boldness and adventure that needed to be answered.

PEace

Karl
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 5, 2009 - 09:48am PT
It looked to me like the last guys who tried to free the Muir intentionally fixed a bunch of gear by smashing a bunch of nuts way deep in the crack. It was obvious that they weren't trying to clean them, but hammer them straight back in as far as possible like bashies. I think it is a fair assumption that it was the free climbers because all the placements were ticked with chalk. On p24 I think there were like 7 fixed nuts in a row. f*#king lame. might as well power drill bolts up the thing...

is that bold style??? more like bullshit style.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 5, 2009 - 09:53am PT
Max and I did a similar thing at Sugarloaf. We aided a pitch and then free climbed it and then took the gear out (all pins). On the drive down there we were wondering what to call it if we did in fact free climb it but placed the gear on aid. As usual for us we decided that we were taking a step and that others would take steps beyond us. We didn't care if we got credit for the "first free ascent". (the route has since been bolted)
In this instance here, it would have been awkward to call the route "free" since the free climbing protection was placed on aid and was not permanent, but I think Coz and The Kid were aware that they were taking a step and fully expected others to take steps beyond them.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2009 - 09:53am PT
back and forth back and forth.
time to move on kiddes!

smashing nuts in the crack? dude you are high...
ks
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 5, 2009 - 09:57am PT
We'll keep going forth as long as you keep going back Kurt.
Meaning: got any more pictures?

So far, this is my favorite,
('headwall pitch photo really tells a story but somehow isn't as dramatic-maybe it's just the size)
This picture has so much life, you can almost smell the swooshing airiness:




And Kurt check my 3 questions a few posts back, just basic interest, nothing controversial.
(or maybe you want to let Coz reply to those, whatever...)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 5, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
JLP said:

”That's wonderful, but what were these two [Hubers] doing in 1994?”

Them Hubers weren’t too far behind; they were certainly using different tactics.

This is why I asked earlier whether Coz & Kurt had any interaction, recollections, or influences from what was going on in that (1994) timeframe. Lynn’s Nose ascents were the only ones I can think of that were happening pretty much in the same time frame as the Muir/Shaft free attempt. Scott Burke’s attempts on The Nose were later, maybe too much to coincide?

My sense is that for Coz & Kurt there was not a lot of direct, influential El Cap free efforts (besides Lynn’s, Skinner/Piana’s, Max/Mark’s) providing context, it seems it was the two of them just independently wanting to go up there and free this thing from the ground up; something they’d been thinking about since 1988.

Here’s a picture from the climbing cover archive, of Alex Huber, up on the Salathe Headwall.
Climbing number 154, August September 1995:



From: http://www.climbing.com/photo-video/gallery/coverarchive/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 5, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
Kurt, I don't think Lambone was referring to ya'll when he wrote

"It looked to me like the last guys who tried to free the Muir intentionally fixed a bunch of gear by smashing a bunch of nuts way deep in the crack."

Obviously, we have no idea who might have gone up there and failed (or sent) or placed those nuts. Maybe they wanted their jams and pro in the same places?

Too bad though. It's tempting to take the bite out of the climb when you think you can find a loop hole. I'd rather have folk preplace the pro like Kurt and Coz than fix semi-not-really-permanent stuff and think it's somehow different.

peace

Karl
Mike.

climber
Jan 5, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
IMO finding scores of tick marks on every pitch is more detracting than a few pieces of fixed gear. I guess the assumption is the marks get rinsed away by the rain? Or are the marks intended to be left for subsequent ascents? I think not removing your own tick marks is lame. Makes EC look like a climbing gym.

Didn't see ticks in any of your pix, K & S. One more aspect of the fine style of your ascent.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 5, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
Kurt,
Karl is right, I wasn't refering to you or your team regarding using aluminum stoppers as bashies in C1-2 cracks. I guess I was under the impression that this thread was about the Muir Wall in general.

I was refering to the guys who were on it August-September of 2006. Their names were mentioned earlier in this thread somewhere. I don't know them or anything about their style/ ethics...other then they are more of those mini-trax monkeys who think it's cool to just rap in and work routes forever. Whatever floats your boat I guess as long as you leave the route somewhat in the way you found it. I have much more respect for a ground up effort like yours.

All I know first hand from what I saw is that some mother-fvcker took their hammer and a chisel and welded 7 or 8 goddamn nuts in a row in a C1-2 blue-black alien crack. They will be there for a very long time until the cables rot and rust away unless somebody goes up there with some kind of ice tool or some sh#t to chop them out.

WTF is up with this style? I am talking a literal Nut Ladder for 60ft, I placed mybe two of my own peieces. My point in my original post on the last page was in refrence to Karls statement about many free climbers improving on El Cap freeclimbing style. I'd say that there is a handfull, like count 'em on one hand. And the others who think it's cool to go up on trade routes and permanently weld some piece of junk in to whip on...can go fvck themselves as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway back to the route. Mike knows the pitch, I'm talking about, the one in the perfect corner above the slopey triangle ledge just below the headwall before the stellar corners.

This be me clipping fixed 'bashies' on C1. Without the right tools required to extract such junk. (Which is?)


As far as the tick marks, on the Muir they will prolly wash off. Not so on the right side though. I don't care about them so much, they kind of amaze me what people can use for holds.

That is all, carry on with your chest beating session. The pics are really cool and I appreciate the TR/route discussion on this forum, we need more like it.

Sorry for the thread drift, just wanted to speak out and make a quick point regarding the Muir and Trade Routes in general, on one issue which I see as unacceptable in our community given the times and technology available to us. Enough with the freakin caveman techniques already.

And yes, I am HIGH, thank you very much.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
lambone, sorry for the wrong impression. I thought you might have been talking about a later ascent.
I guess some noobs got in our their head when placing those nuts.

I'll see about getting another pic posted soon. Maybe my post will make it to 150?
IF you have shots of your time on the muir (t2) post em up!
ks
Mike.

climber
Jan 5, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
A sad day, man. Tell me it's not this one...



Ouch. A sad day indeed. Maybe tick marks are not so bad.

Incredible that this was done by climbers of advanced ability. What a f*#king shame.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 5, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
Mike, that's it. Your 'Glorious Vision' is now a ladder of wires. And those wires will not be removed without exeptional scaring of the rock and some sort of houdini nut tool/crowbar device.

Kurt no worries, but they wern't placed by n00bs, it was obvious they were free climbers who like to 'Pinkpoint' and turn El Cap into a big sport climb. Each nut was ticked with chalk as if the dude needed a reminder to clip it. They are in literaly as far as you could smash them back and still clip the wire.

And ps, thanks for the fatty anchor bolts. They were nice to clip.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 5, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
Dang, that is one perfect awesome heavenly looking book of stone, pitch 24

El Cap, Upper Dihedrals. Such Beauty

Peace

Karl
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 5, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
Ah yes, da Muir sure be stellar! Arghh, sailing the Granite Seas! (The Fat Guy Meathod)


Me pretending I know how to free climb 5.7, thank god for the top-rope!


Mucho respect for those hard and clean free climbers.
nutjob

Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 5, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
You guys are so far out of my league, I'll never be able to dream about climbing as hard as you will after you're wearing diapers in retirement. This stuff is unspeakably bad-ass.

That said, please let time cast a graceful shadow of your achievements and don't sully it with petty comparison to subsequent climbers. Your achievements stand on their own.

It's like hearing Babe Ruth come out and say "yeah but they have these fancy bats now and fancy steroids and the atmosphere is thinner and they actually train hard and go on special diets... otherwise I would have done what all these new guys are doing."

Then again, I guess comparing climbing prowess across time/generations is as good a way as any to fill the time around the campfire.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Jan 5, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
"So who was the rogue sar informer?

Weird? I heard it was a climber that made the complaint about the drill but I never knew it was a sar guy.

Who was it? "

Some mother f*#kers say it was me.

But never to my face.

I did not do it. I didn't even know those guys were up there.

Got me my name though...

Dingus Milktoast.

Branded.

DMT

lucho

Gym climber
San Franpsycho
Jan 5, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
This has to be one of the BEST threads on the Taco in a long time. Kurt and Scott are truly an inspiration to many of the younger generation in Yosemite. Its really nice to see some modern Yos. hardmen like Jake and Bob chime in as well. Thanks you guys. The article Coz is great, cant wait for the spring to roll around!

Lucho
drljefe

climber
Toostoned, AZ
Jan 5, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
I really dig what Jake had to say.
I remember when this went down and was super inspired, still am. Too bad such a rad trip got
overshadowed by the powerdrill issue.

Thanks for the mag scan. I still have that issue but the pages are stuck together...not in a creepy way.
Fluoride

Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
Jan 5, 2009 - 10:07pm PT
BUMP!!!

This thread belongs on the front page. Big time.
Justen

climber
Jan 5, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
I was happy to lurk another day on Supertopo, especially on a great thread about the best line up El Cap! The Muir Wall has pitch after pitch of classic free climbing with very little groveling. I enjoy some groveling but running laps on Blind Faith doesn’t’ sound like fun. It just gets to me when people that I don’t know mention that I could have done something in better style. It takes time to gain experience, which leads to better style. The mentoring process in the Valley doesn’t exist except for downing Cobra!

I think I’m one of the folks that ticked and fixed 7 stoppers WITHOUT a chisel on the Captian to free that damn thing in the best style possible FOR ME. In the end I re-redpointed every pitch from the ground to the top, ideally with no falls (didn’t happen). It did take persistence from me to hike to the summit and mini the hell out of the route, which I enjoyed (that was the devil in me typing). I was never in anyone’s way during this long personal project. I wasn’t found at the El Cap Tree or Bridge talking trash because I was putting all my passion doing the best that I could do and focusing on my climbing.

I hear so much slander from one thread to the next about all the CASH we climbers in the climbing industry make. I make good money, which is just enough to pay for my own health insurance. I coach adults and kids in the gym and get zero cash from my sponsors. I’m proud of my personal efforts and sorry to hear that it wasn’t proud enough for YOU!

My last adventure I got my ass pulled up Magic Mushroom from the best big wall free climber in the world and still didn’t complete a perfect ascent. But, I sure in hell let all of you know of my shortcoming in every published word on the ascent.

I think the Muir Wall has the best hard free climbing currently on El Cap and hope some of you can go out and enjoy it one day!

P.S. We cleaned out all the small nuts in the beautiful dihedral pitch. I needed those fixed because I wasn’t rad enough to let go long enough to place a stopper or cam from those stances. I know future kids will send this climb in better style because I will personally pass on my knowledge and help them make improvements on my style! I’m a believer of being open about what happened during a send because I want future generation to leap forward.

It’s never to late to start, stop complaining and start mentoring the future generations of climbing!

Justen

Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 6, 2009 - 01:40am PT
justen, what you climbed was amazing. I never said you were in anyones way or you ballsy free climbing wasn't prowd. Congrats.

My only question is why didn't you clean your nuts?

Sorry if I was an ass in my previous post. I admit I was fired up about it when I rolled up to lead that pitch, and still get fired up about it. Dont take it personal, i dont know you. I was just expecting and hoping for the pitch in the photograph, the stellar alien leapfrog pitch I had read about since I can recall first reading the old trs on Tuans page. instead i got what in my perception was a trashed pitch, I guess it was just dissapontment. But I am still glad you had fun doing your thing up there.

I do say it was the only pitch littered like that. Which was cool, but made it even more odd at the time.

Anyway, some industrious bastard will clean those things. Saw them in half or something. If they can clean the old stovelegs they can clean anything right!
Cheers

Ps, I coach and mentor 20 or so young climbers myself. I hope they can enjoy clean trade routes on el cap somedaywhen they are ready, if they want to.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 6, 2009 - 06:57am PT
Wow! A real live honest-to-goodness confession. Thanks, dude.

I haven't seen the fixed stoppers, so can't comment. You might want to consider a trip back up to see if you could get them out, if it's as grievous as Matt suggests.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 6, 2009 - 08:34am PT
Justen,

Don't sweat it Brother, you will always get sh#t no matter how proud an effort you make, mostly form people who do not climb at your level and understand the demands and needs.

I am not saying if you do not climb hard your thoughts are not valid, but maybe more speculation than actual understanding. Who cares about a fixed stoppers, laugh it off my friend.

No, I don't rap from the top, but that does not mean if you do you have bad style, just different style. We grew up in a different times. It's only climbing and as my friend Alex said before he past,"The best climber in the world is the one having the most fun."

Roy, I promise to answer all your questions, but they are deep and I want to choose my words wisely.

Karl, show be where I said I was sorry about using a power drill.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 6, 2009 - 08:45am PT
"Who cares about a fixed stoppers, laugh it off my friend."

With attitudes like that well surely see these free routes get laced with fixed sh#t through all the cruxes. Nice.

Sure everyone fixes a nut on occasion, I've fixed my fair share on accident. Fixing a whole pitch with them and leaving them behind is a different story.

Also, I wasn't speculating anything, it was obvious what took place up there. I too have been climbing since you two littered the sport rags with your mullets and puple lycra.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:13am PT
coz, you appear to be digging a hole.
Refer to all your posts on the Half Dome thread and compare them to your comments on this thread.

Here are my comments.


1) Power drills are not cool just because they were used "ground up". Hand drilling forces us into a certain amount of fair play with the stone, because there's only so much of it one can take, when it comes to granite, if you don't want to be up there a month.

2) Fixed stoppers are about as bad as any other fixed mank.

3) There are many many here who understand perfectly well what is being discussed, and many who have climbed at high levels at various times. I have climbed 5.12 and many El-Cap routes myself. We know the difference between rap bolting and ground up power drilling for example. We know what aid and rehearsing are. We know what a difference pre-placed pro makes.

4) 5.10 climbers and below have to follow the rules, but 5.13 climbers get the green light on whatever is going to make the next gymnastic level go?

We say how much we honor those who came before us, but it often doesn't come out like that.

What would Robbins or John Muir think?

stir..stir..stir....

WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:18am PT
"5.10 climbers and below have to follow the rules ..."

That's right.

The elite make the rules as they seem fit and as they go along.

Just look at our governments in our world today for example.

Just another sarcastic truthful WB post .....heh heh.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:22am PT
Yes,
This is cool that we get some from the current generation posting on this thread!
‘Nice to see more than us crusty old dads arguing over style and picking the lint out of our toes.
(Not that there's anything wrong with it)

Thanks Coz,

Please take your time with those answers; after all you’ve now had years to think about it and if you write anything hastily here, we will just hastily paw all over it! Hahaha.

Here's one more straightforward category of questions which I formulated:

You guys obviously spent a lot of time up there, climbing day after day, sometimes resting. If you read Tommy Caldwell's account of free climbing the Dihedral Wall, it's quite clear that he totally racked his body doing that thing; he talks about sometimes working on it all day, many days in a row, then adding to some of those days by coming down and bouldering in the evening! I read recently that he has early-onset arthritis.

So my 2 additional questions:

 I might simply ask, knowing what you guys know now, what would you have done differently? That’s pretty open-ended (obviously you would have sent the last pitch for starters!)

 So this second question is fairly confined. Purely in an athletic training and recovery sense, what did you learn about spending that much time up there cranking away, what feedback did you gather which would in hindsight have instructed you to do things differently, to assure that your body’s were maintained in such a way that success would have been the most well supported?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:28am PT
The pre-placed gear issue should have been mentioned prominently in the article. Everyone knows it's a much harder to place gear on the lead then to merely clip it.
Given that, even if the team had free climbed that last bit, they could not really have claimed a "free" ascent.
There is pretty much no way around that fact.

I do find it interesting that the very proponents of "adventure" and "letting the rock have a chance" are being so cagey on this point.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:32am PT
Mark,

I am definitely with you and Max that a pinkpoint ascent [listen to me, I learned a new word!] where the gear is pre-placed is not a legit free ascent. However these days people even cheat on sport climbs by pre-hanging their draws! But in many climbers' camps, a pinkpoint is considered a free climb. I think they did a good enough job in the article about defining their style, to the point of showing the photographs with the pre-placed gear [which is what caught my eye originally] and later in prose, mentioning that all pitches were either redpointed or pinkpointed. So in fairness I don't think they were being cagey, because they could have chosen to selectively avoid showing any photos in the magazine that showed pre-placed gear. [Unless you refer to this posting on McTopo, where I don't remember seeing any preplaced gear photos showing up until the magazine article was scanned and shown.]

I also don't see the "adventure" particularly, for that implies some sort of risk, and climbing El Cap without fixed ropes is the usual way. They knew they could get up the route by aiding it, although their ability to free climb it was always in doubt. But I'm not convinced that uncertainty of style of finishing it makes it an adventure, maybe you need a bit more than that? Then again, every El Cap route is an adventure, so there you go. But man, those boys sure knew how to live on the wall in style, that I love!

I am very confused and perplexed, however, that Coz would write,

"Who cares about a fixed stoppers, laugh it off my friend."

If this is true, then who cares about rap bolting the South Face of Half Dome?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:41am PT
Pete,
Hell yeah, take a look at that shot of Kurt stemming that corner. Kurt's thinking, "this is hard as hell, I'm not pumped, I can keep moving, I think I see a spot up there that I can rest".
Now take the gear away, "this is hard as hell, I'm not pumped, I hope I can get some gear up there, I hope I have the gear I'll need up there. I'm pretty run out right now, I hope I can stop soon and plop in a cam. Sh#t this is tough I can keep moving, I think I see a spot up there that I can rest, gawd, I hope so. I'm gonna die if I don't get something in soon".
It makes a difference.

Sport climbing, yeah, not as much difference but still a difference.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:55am PT
I agree, pinkpointing El Cap and claiming a free ascent is ghey. Leaving your welded stoppers/pitons/whatever behind because you are too lazy, tired, or more worried about completing your 'free' climb is even worse.

The only other excuse is that it was physicaly impossible to remove the pieces you hammered in, and in that case...well...go back to Trad climbing 101 class. Nut's don't have to hammered in a foot back into the crack to hold a fall.

I don't care who you are or how hard you climb, don't belidle my opinion just because I'm only a fat aid climber. I have every right to want to climb clean pristine cracks up on the Cap as everyone who climbed it before me and everyone who dreams of climbing it in the future.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:59am PT
Yes Mark and Pete:

In the style deconstruction mode, these seem to be accurate distinctions that you are drawing, certainly where natural protection is concerned.

Just to bend the mind around this a little; consider that:
When Bachar, establishing the Bachar Yerian, put in his bolts, he was aiding and affixing pre-placed protection. (He calls it A0 or A1! I have to call BS on that, with those run outs and then jumping on hooks, it’s more like modern A3+)

Any ground-up bolted route leaves pre-placed protection. Yes of course, we know that dealing with the rock on its own terms, the purest style for non-bolted traditional climbing is to place your own gear. I am just toying with perspectives and distinctions here.

In the late 70s and early 80s, we didn’t call it pinkpointing, some of us called it “frigging”, meaning dinking around on a pitch, maybe hanging or aiding some to get the gear in. (Free + some "rigging" & it was meant as a derogation).

As you earlier characterized it Mark: "Taking Steps" with style.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 6, 2009 - 10:05am PT
Sure, he's hanging on a dinking little hook, looking at a giant honkin' fall if it slips as he drills a bolt. That's badass. Didn't he go back and do the second ascent and the FFA a few days later?

I'm fully behind Kurt and Coz as far as adventure and giving the rock a chance but let's call a spade a spade. Pinkpointing an El Cap route is not Free Climbing an El Cap route.

I'm still all over their ascent. It was great, it was masterful, it was ground breaking. BUT at the end of the day, it was a free ascent of a gear route with some of the gear pre-placed.

It was a step.
The Alpine

Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
Jan 6, 2009 - 10:10am PT
Whatever... its just rock climbing. You guys all know how they did it. Grab pull grab clip pull grab.....

If you got a problem with the style go show us how you would do it.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 10:12am PT
If you look at my post and parse it, I’m not directly disagreeing with you Mark.
Also I edited a bit to clarify that frigging was once frowned upon.

My point was to really look at the subtleties here; yes Bachar went back and performed a free ascent: but with fixed protection (bolts). I’m not saying this justifies a pink point as the cleanest ascent. Just saying there are interesting nuances here if you want to look at them.

A lot of modern high-end free climbers now look at “Trad” as purely putting gear into routes, quite often with full pre-rehearsal, so ground up has almost completely lost its context. Except that when they do it ground up on site, they know and recognize that that is better style.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 6, 2009 - 10:23am PT
I understand what you're saying Tarbuster. Now, if the Muir team had gone up had placed a bolt everywhere they left gear for free climbing protection we wouldn't be having this discussion. (We'd be having another and boy that one would be hot, eh?)
Climbing a pitch and clipping bolts is a lot easier than climbing a pitch and placing gear, and I'll add, takes some of the adventure out of the climb.

And yeah, the nuances... A fixed pin on one ascent that isn't there on the next ascent, an extra long sling hung on a bolt on a sport route. I think we're pretty clear on that.

I think we all agree though, in Yosemite, the tradition is to place gear as you go on the crack routes. A team leaves the ground, places all the gear, takes it all out and never weighs the rope or the gear.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 10:27am PT
Yes.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 6, 2009 - 10:32am PT
Well done Justen. Hard core. Kurt and Coz, you guys were an inspiration with that route. All climbing "ethics" will eventually be subject to controversy outside of free soloing I suppose. This brings to light the concept of "relative truth". The fact that we often define our own truths and we often feel that "what is true for me should be true for everybody." Kind of an impossible situation if you ask me. There exists for us in climbing no Grand Tribunal, no "Law", no Field manual, no Governing Body. And for that I think we can all agree we should be thankful. We gotta look to the past in order to learn, and look to the future for inspiration and to gain an awareness of how our actions on the stone will affect others to come. Thats what keeps me from adding a bolt to a runout section of 5.7 on Nutcracker when I'm a bit skeered. A bit of respect and reverence should temper our decisions in the moment. You guys seem to have that and your routes reflect both reverence and respect. Thanks for the Trip Report. Don't get too bogged down in the drama. Enjoy the memories.


By the way Coz. Did you and Epi ever make up? That part of the story bummed me and I don't even know you guys. Care to share? By the way, I still have that shot of Kurt stemming in the corner, yarding up a handful of line for a clip in my Garage. Thanks Epi.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 10:36am PT
I am also waiting to hear whether or not Coz & Kurt have roped up since....
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:00am PT
Micronut,

I agree. We all are thankful that we love a game that doesn't require more sucking up to the man....

But, it's also why we have to continue to have legitimate conversations about the way we do various things in the name of "progress."

We can all agree that free solo is about as pure and poppin' as it gets, and that we don't want our big walls to be reduced to big grid bolted jungle gyms. El-Capitan is sacred and well worth any debate we choose to have about it. It's the only thing that can delay the onset of the "man" saving us with his infinite wisdom.....
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:10am PT
I'm a pretty weak climber. 36 years old. Been climbing for 20 years. Basically 5.9 and Alpiny at heart. Nobody ever "taught" me or really mentored me but somehow I came to a set of beliefs about style. Here is my understanding of the "Rules". Where did I get this. Is it still Kosher? Agree to disagree.

1. First ascent trumps all. Don't add to it without full permission. EVER.

2. Best style is ground up, no or few bolts if possible. Bolts placed on lead from stances or hooks is "better" than rap bolting.

3. Rise to the occasion. Don't bring the rock down to your level.

4. Leave no trace is the ultimate goal but not always reality.

These are pretty much in stone as far as I'm concerned though I've never seen them written down at the base of a route. Anything else we need to add to the list?
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:12am PT
Boys, that's coz in the corner making the clip not the kid.

all this detailed parsing of ethics is over my head. Coz wrote a great story with everything laid out clearly and this was one bigtime badass adventure. It takes my imagination soaring.

EDIT: ah, micro is referring to the other corner picture with Kurt.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:12am PT
All these ethical debates…
Guys like Scott and Kurt sometimes coming here and waving their arms about traditional style dying and everything.

There are easily 100 people on this forum, active contributors, never mind the lurkers, who each have 30 years climbing experience. That’s more than 3000 years of understanding what trad climbing is and what it does. Like since before Jesus.
I think we get it.

It’s just mental exercise to talk about it.
(some would say wanking…hehe…but I didn’t say that)


Try going on the rockclimbing.com and having these discussions: youch!
Or any other place where the young generation really lives.
Now there’s a crusade…
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:16am PT
C'mon Kurt: scan 'em up, & post us them pictures!
We're getting long in the tooth here...
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:19am PT
"There are easily 100 people on this forum, active contributors, never mind the lurkers, who each have 30 years climbing experience. That’s more than 3000 years of understanding what trad climbing is and what it and does. Like since before Jesus.
I think we get it. "

Pretty amazing really, what happened to this board in the last 2 years. This site is a treasure house with an annoying U/I (don't ever change it!) that keeps the kids away in droves. The simple fact there are no subforums seems to confound these electonic age kids hehe.

The U/I is a Supertopo self-defense mechanism.

But the convergence that happened here is something special I think. There have been some legendary threads as a result - true collaborative free form free willed magic.

It just all sorta falls into messy place - just like with climbing.

DMT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:27am PT
Dogpile on Werner!!!
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:37am PT
Yaaaaaaaa, man.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:46am PT
Mike, I was referring to the Pitch 27 shot with the rope in his teeth. Was Kurt wearing Baggy Sweats? Somehow that style never caught on, but it looks so cool in that shot. Killer Route!
goatboy smellz

climber
dirty south
Jan 6, 2009 - 11:49am PT



survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
Who the hell is jeff jackson passing judgement on me passing judgement on us passing judgement..............?

Who the hell does he think he is anyway? HA!
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
There you go... that's the one! Only he's not the one who said I narced out the boys. The f*#ktards who said that have remained hidden in the tall grass. Maybe one of them, some day, will summon sufficient nerve to say it to my face? Nah, not gonna happen.

BTW I thanked Jackson for the name. I meant it too. It was a GOOD lesson for me, about mouthing off about my betters. (clearly the lesson stuck.... haha) I had the chance to apologize to The General some time back and did so as well.

DMT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
So THAT is where your nickname came from? Really??

Dude! You have to show us all a copy of the letter that got El Jefe all fired up! [That's some letter, incidentally. No small amount of illogical argument]
goatboy smellz

climber
dirty south
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:20pm PT

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
This is awesome!!
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
Oi vey!

I was wrong! WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Except for the whining (about getting caught). I was RIGHT about that.

I did a complete 180 on this whole thing, over the years.

And I'm STILL sorry for typing that ^^^^^^^^

DMT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
Holy "no sooner said than done", Batman! Too funny!

Now DO TELL - what is your first name, Mr. Harris?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
Well done goatboy!! Whooeeee...

80 holes?? Yikes.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
I'm too a-scared too click on this thread any longer...
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
Me too. I'm outta here before coz comes and kills me.

DMT
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
hahahahahah!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
Nahh, don't worry. He's gonna be too busy whippin' DR and SJ for rap bolting.
yo

climber
I drink your milkshake!
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
hahaha

Say it ain't so, DMT.




PS: Coz and the Kid = Chuck Norris x 2
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
wow i made it past 150 posts! I still got it!

I like Tarbuuster just keeping it going and the goatboy finding that Jeff Jackson letter. I think this is great dialog and the reason i love this country. So lets get to 200!

And i gotta give epps credit for spending his time on the wall with us stoned noobs when he could have been in the valley swooning the ladies (some more!)!!
Here a great shot from epps.
p17 belay before Coz checks out our first varition of the muir. this next pitch was sic .13- thin crimpy steep slab!



I agree with Tar- turn off the computer for at least an hour and go bouldering or ride a bike or drink a beer of get a job!

enjoy kiddies!
KS
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 6, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
Paging Mr. Harris? Mr. *C* Harris? [what's his first name?]

Two hundred posts ain't nothin' compared to two thousand. Why, you'd probably have to rap-bolt a big wall to get two thousand posts. Ain't gonna get there with no hammered nuts, that's for sure.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
damn! well i guess i will have to try harder..


maybe the mountaintop mining post again. check out:
http://www.ilovemountains.org/

and then the big battle in my area is:
http://www.crmw.net/index.php

and if you really want to throw up check out:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalmemorialforthemountains/sets/72157594303835554/detail/


My name is Kurt Smith and I love Mountains!

ok now back to climbing photos and SPRAY!



Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
Oh...for Pete's sake Kurt,

Could you please set those images to 600 pixels in height
(or 800 pixels wide, if it is a horizontal composition)?

As long as the file size is roughly 150 KB, they'll be more dramatic.
If photo bucket is resizing these automatically, I don't know what to say. Somebody else can help out.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
And I didn't mean for 'Pass the Pitons' Pete's sake.

I meant like:
(here I go again)
(check out these people arguing about phrase origin/etymology Ha!)

Re: Pete's sake
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/1029.html

 How did the saying "For Pete's Sake" come from?

* Biblical origins. Think of St Peter. Think of the omnipresent medieval church and think of hitting your thumb with a hammer. You can't swear, else the local priests will have you up before the Bishop and the Lord alone knows what the outcome of that will be, so you exclaim, in appropriate tone of voice, "For Saint Peter's sake" and carry on erecting the shelves. This phrase was amended to "For Pete's Sake" in later, less religiously oppressive, times.

* This is called a "Minced oath," a substitution of a less offensive word.

 Not by me it's not; I just consider it a mild swearword to be used in polite company to express irritation at some other person's action or, more likely, inaction. Never ever think of it as a 'minced oath' which conjures up visions of mooing cattle, butchers in white aprons and the awful grinding sound of meat being extruded.

* Relax, please. No one should ever have such a passion for a phrase.

 Let me try this again. A "minced oath" means when a person starts to let go with a really bad swear -- like God damn -- realizes he/she shouldn't say it and substitutes a harmless phrase like "Godfrey Daniel." And along the same line, a person starts to say "For God's Sake" and says "For Pete's Sake" instead. Or starts to say the F-word and says instead, "For goodness sake."

* Let me also try again. Why a 'minced oath'? Where did such a phrase originate? Why not a 'mild Swearword', a 'Substituted Oath', even a 'Religious Oath' for goodness sake. A 'minced oath'; never use it, never heard anyone else use it and would advise all vegetarians to avoid it like the plague. Let's face it, it just not PC to introduce mince into swear words, however mild they may be.

....................................................
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 6, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
Lambone/Matt,

It's certainly a drag that those nuts were fixed on the p24 corner when you climbed it. But they are gone now - see Justen's post - he and Rob removed them after they finished the PreMuir. Justen and Rob worked on freeing their version of the Shaft / Muir over 2.5 years, partly because the climbing up there is so darn hard, and partly because some key parts were wet one year. They needed some preplaced gear to be able to free that corner by very hard stemming (hand jammies backwards with the rubber on Justen's palms!). Using temporarily fixed nuts was a better solution than fixed pins or adding bolts along the crack, in my opinion (and I think Pete would agree!). Still it was a bummer for Matt, but at least it was not permanent.

I clean aid climbed the p24 corner in 1998. From my trip report:
-----

Day 4. In the morning, Paul probably got fairly tired of the small belay stance on the slab, as I took 3.5 hours to lead the next pitch [...]. The pitch itself was nice, sans any big pin scars like on more popular routes, and went clean mostly on solid #1 Rocks. The main problem was that we only had 3 of these, and one was in the belay anchor; having 5 or 6 would have helped. So I had to constantly move back down to backclean my 3rd-highest nut (with 2 highest nuts in place). And I couldn't always make the highest possible placement because I had to try to use my other sizes whenever possible. Finally I thought I was out of the woods after a roof traverse on small TCUs. But the short section above required more #1 Rocks, so I had to lower down and backclean all the way back to the belay at that point! Maybe if I had been willing to use cam hooks, it would not have been so slow, but I steadfastly refused to even try them. Finally I arrived at the gray alcove with its small stance, after puzzling at a small unnecessary rivet/head below the alcove. I set up a solid belay anchor using a #2.5, #3 and #3.5 Friend, all in the same deep section of the crack.
-----

http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/rep/muir.clint.html

In 2001 (or 2002?), Bruce Bindner added a bolt belay at the top of this pitch. He and Em were hauling some big bags.
http://www.supertopo.com/rockclimbing/route.html?r=ybelmuir

http://www.summitpost.org/trip-report/170030/muir-wall-life-in-the-slow-lane.html
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 6, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
Pete,

C = Craig, I believe. (and for symmetry, your last name is Zabrok, right? :-) )

DMT/CH,

Cool explanation of the origins of the DMT handle. I've heard of Caspar Milquetoast (my parents have a great cartoon book by H.T. Webster from 1953):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspar_Milquetoast

Pete & Mark,

preplaced vs. pinkpoint vs. redpoint free. I think everyone has to make their own definition of their style of free climbing. "free" is itself just a word we have defined for this context, partly because it's a short word so we don't have to describe every time that we didn't grab the gear to make upward progress.

For me personally, a toprope ascent of a pitch is free although clearly easier than a lead. This style wouldn't be considered legit for most boulderers, though, I guess. Similarly, Scott Burke's ascent of the Nose is in a gray area because he toproped part of the Great Roof due to wetness and lack of time.
I suppose I've been over this before on my "Long, Hard and Free" page (title ripped off from Mark and Max):
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/longhf.htm

Short version: free climbing El Cap is a very tough proposition, especially an FFA. People make their own rules on style and definition of free; "as free as they can" probably. As long as there is room somewhere (like on my page) to keep track of the details for comparison or beta purposes, it's all good. Here's to the big free adventures!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 6, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
What was the time line for free climbing El Cap routes? The Salathe went free in 1988,
What was next and when was it?

My point is, for all the nits about the Muir, it was quite early in the El Cap free climbing evolution and really, at it's most basic level, was quite bold and audacious.

The best part of being famous, for me, is all the people who have told me that I inspired them. Coz and the Kid, merely striving for adventure and challenge, can no doubt inspire future climbers to take bold and adventurous steps beyond.
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 6, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
What ever else folks may say, great effort & GREAT pics, Kurt & Coz.
Super Rad!!
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 6, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
Time line to 2001 - El Cap free and nearly free routes and projects, bold = FFA

 Free Blast - 5.11b *** (10p: 2 5.11), First 10 pitches of the Salathe' Wall, FFA - Jim Bridwell, John Long, Kevin Worrall, Mike Graham, John Bachar, and Ron Kauk, 5/75
 The Nose, all but 400' freed - John Bachar, Ron Kauk, Dale Bard, 1975
 West Face - 5.11b *** (20p: 4 5.11), FFA - Ray Jardine, Bill Price, 5/79
 Salathe' Wall, all but 250' freed, Max Jones, Mark Hudon, Spring 1979
 The Nose, variations to Camp 4 (including infamous chipped traverse) - Ray Jardine, et al, 1980
 Salathe' Wall - 5.13b *** (35p: 7 5.11, 4 5.12, 4 5.13), FFA - Todd Skinner, Paul Piana, 6/88
 Excalibur - 5.13a A4 ** (28p: 5 5.11, 8 5.12, 1 5.13, 75% free), 75% FA - Steve Schneider, Bill Price, Jeff Schoen, 5/92
 The Nose - 5.13c/5.14b *** (34p: 6 5.11, 4 5.12, 1 5.13, 1 5.13/5.14), FFA - Lynn Hill 9/93
 West Buttress 5.12 A2, 85% FA - Steve Schneider, Bill Price, early 90s???
 Lurking Fear 5.13a A1, 95% FA - Steve Schneider, Jeff Schoen, Alan Lester, spring/94
 Dihedral Wall 5.12 A2, 50% FA - Alan Lester, Peter Takeda, 5/94
 The Shaft (Muir/Shaft/Shield) - 5.13 A1 ** (33p: 7 5.11, 14 5.12, 4 5.13), near (99%) FFA - Kurt Smith, Scott Cosgrove, 6/94
 The Nose, 2nd FA - Lynn Hill 9/94
 Salathe' Wall, 2nd FA - Alex Huber, 6/95
 Salathe' Wall, 3rd FA - Thomas Huber, 7/96
 Salathe' Wall, 4th FA - Yuji Hirayama, 9/97
 Freerider (Salathe' var.) - 5.12d ** (37p: 8 5.11, 5 5.12), FFA - Alex and Thomas Huber, 10/98?
 Freerider, 2nd FA - Heinz Zak, Peter Janschek, 9/98
 El Nino - 5.13c A0 ** (30p: 5 5.11, 7 5.12, 6 5.13, 1 25' rappel, 99% free), FFA - Alex and Thomas Huber, 9/98
 El Nino, 2nd FA - Leo Houlding, Patrick Hammond, 10/98
 The Nose, nearly FA - Scott Burke 11/98
 Salathe' Wall, 5th FA - Tommy Caldwell, 5/99
 Freerider, 3rd FA - Scott Burke, Sam Shannon, 6/99
 El Nino, 3rd FA - Michael Mayr, Richard Schipflinger, 1999
 Lurking Fear - 5.13c ** (18p: 9 5.12, 3 5.13), FFA - Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, 6/2000
 Golden Gate = Salathe' Wall / Heart Route - 5.13b (41p: 5 5.12, 3 5.13), FFA - Alex and Thomas Huber, 10/00
 The Shaft (Muir/Shaft/Shield) - 5.13c ** (33p: 7 5.11, 14 5.12, 4 5.13), FFA - Tommy Caldwell, Nick Sagar, 5/2001
 Freerider, 4th? FA - Rob Miller, Nathan Martin, 2001
 El Corazon = Free Blast(Salathe') / Flight of the Albatross / Son of Heart / Heart Route - 5.13b (35p: 5 5.12, 5 5.13), FFA - Alex Huber, 10/01
(for climbs after 2001 see page below)

http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/longhf.htm#shaft
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 6, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
Did knott know Thomas had the third free ascent of Salathe. Also did knott know Heinz Zak made the second ascent of Freerider. He is an underrated badass, having climbed Half Dome and then El Cap together in under 24 hours. And free soloed Separate Reality.

An apparent omission from the list above, unless it did knott occur during the prescribed time period, is Leo's free ascent of New Jersey Turnpike, all except two pitches which are bolt ladders. I think Leo should have gotten a LOT more credit for that route, in spite of the fact that there are two pitches of not-free-climbable rock.

9 more posts to go...
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 6, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
Clint, didn't some climbers free the Waterfall Route (with variations) in 2008? Or something in that area, anyway?

You could add the free ascents of the East Buttress and the Stovelegs, and perhaps also the West Face, to your chronology. The former were signposts to what was to come, the latter perhaps the first long El Cap route to be done with a lot of free on the first ascent. I don't know what the percentage was, but fairly high - although so also was the Salathe.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 6, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
Pete,

Thanks for the tip on New Jersey Turnpike! I hadn't noticed that one. Apparently it was Leo Houlding, Ivo Ninov, Tim Emmy, 80% free. At least that was what I could patch together from a google search on "Leo Houlding" "New Jersey Turnpike" which yielded a DVD description for "Action Adept Yosemite Valley" with "Vivo Nina" (Ivo?), plus some foreign language sites like:
http://www.wspinanie.pl/serwis/200306/25elcap.php
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 6, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
Anders,

Lots more has been freed since 2001 - that's just when I stopped my timeline above, as 2001 was when the entire Shaft was freed. Most of the newer stuff should be on my page. I might be missing Waterfall Route - is that different from Secret Passage and Lost in Translation? (I'm pretty sure Lost in Translation is further right - just left of the East Buttress).

I left out Stovelegs and East Buttress because they weren't considered Grade VI. West Buttress is on there (considered V by some now). Free Blast is on there; maybe it shouldn't be, but maybe just for reference....
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
tar- good beta i'll try this here:


Clint and the rest- good stores of the later efforts on this route.
The west face free is a big one for that era and i did it with Malcolm Matheson (HB) in 1984, we did it all free, hno fixed ropes in 10 hours and it was a blast! this was the longest route @ the time for me and i was gripped and psyched @ the same time...!

KS
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 6, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
Is that the pitch up to Grey Ledges?

Cool!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
Yes much better Kurt!!!

Thanks for resizing: if you felt like it, you could resize the one above the Shield Headwall too.
I bet it would really improve the drama in that photo.

Nice work on the timeline too Clint.

In my question to Cosgrove upthread (which I know he is ardently considering) I'm hoping he'll try to reflect on how some of the free efforts right in his time frame affected thinking and so forth. For instance, I'm wondering if Lynn Hill, or others who had tried similar things, were around during this Muir/Shaft bid to offer their opinions or advice to Coz & Kurt. I'm interested to know how the tactics used in previous efforts informed stylistic choices on this particular effort. I'm wondering if the Huber Brothers were perhaps there in '94 watching... and so forth.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
*Thread Drift Alert*

I just returned from dropping off my recycling and on the way back, up by the graveyard above my house, I spun my car out on a 100 foot sheet of ice. I did at least a full 180, maybe two... and got lodged in a ditch.

A local ski patrolman happened by; we went to the hardware store where I purchased a come-along.
There were some nice trees to anchor to: just for kicks I tried using the euro death knott for the sling.
(FYI It didn't hold).

Luckily we didn't have to girth hitch a tombstone.
So much for life outside of SuperTorpor™, having a beer now and back here where it's safe ...
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Jan 6, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
Dingus, I had no idea Jeff coined your name in relation to your letter about this very climb. Too funny!
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
Tarbuster

You should have used pulleys and static line with mechanical advantage to extract vehicle.

Even one directional pulley/maybe beiner tied to a tree to another vehicle to pull. Prussics applied in proper places to keep vehicle from sliding back down in case tow vehicle slips on ice.

Improvising is the rule.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
Shu-yaaaah.
At least I can spell Prusik.
Walleye

climber
The Pillored Entrance of the Same Mansion
Jan 6, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
Hey Werner, is tha the system you used on the SAR wagon at Happy Isles? Ha ha ha.........
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Jan 6, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
I got yer prusik right here:

When I was in the Air Force a shop mate of mine was out joy riding on base in our government issued pickup truck, with his kids, on restricted land out behind the Base police station.

This in south Georgia. The dumb f*#k ran the truck off into the swamp!

He called me up at like 3 pm on a Sunday and me and our boss took two trucks and some comealongs and stealth snuck out there to rescue him.

Nothing doing... that truck was stuck. Comealongs were useless.

Now our boss was a talker - he'd talk to anyone. And he'd recently been talking to this Reserve unit antenna crew that was on base erecting some new big ole antennas.

Well that crew had a HUGE boom truck.

So my boss? he figgered those Reserve boys would be at the NonComm club and sure enough that's where we found them.

After a few beers and some explanations he sprung the question - being part timers with no real skin in the game they were all FOR IT.

So we SNUCK a 10-ton boom truck into the swamp on these stupid sand roads, no chance of turning that thing around. Got to our truck and that feller just lifted it right out of the much and stcuk it on the road, slick as you please.

Then he backed that thing up on a sand road for over a mile and we snuck back out of there and no one ever found out about our great caper.

My shop mate would have lost his sargent stripes for SURE had we been caught. My boss might have been discharged - we were in a highly secure area.

Prusiks, bah!

I'll take the Boom Truck for 200 Alex.

DMT
wildone

climber
GHOST TOWN
Jan 6, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
Very nice dingus. I'm all for some "Git 'er dun" when the time is right.
marty(r)

climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
Jan 6, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
Justen,

If you haven't been put off by the cyber-babble/slander/navel-gazing/introspection, I wanted to say your slideshow a few years back at Stanford was remarkable. Those photos were one of a kind and what really came through was your passion and drive and nagging persistence. You and Rob. Totally rad. The kids you're mentoring will be well served to learn the synergy of training, positive persistence, and collaboration with a equally driven partner.



A few other pieces could keep this going...

Justen Sjong slideshow thread from a few years back:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=163877&msg=166647#msg166647

Robbins' article from AAJ on his solo of the Muir:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=732192&msg=732204#msg732204

"Grossman Mouths Off":
http://www.bdel.com/scene/word/2002_rock.php#grossman

(That's my semi-annual request to hear about Steve's hammer-less ascent of the Muir. Paging Mr. Grossman...)

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
Tou-shay Marty(r)!

Justen,

Absolutely a little input from you on the Muir would be terrific.
Which pitch is that in the photo depicted in the flier above, is it from the Muir Wall?

Don't be shy,
Because, although not nearly as good looking, this is pretty much what most of us SuperTalkos™are:
(except of course for Coz & Kurt ... a.k.a. Chuck Norris x 2 ...so no need to demure on your part)



(Picture ripped from the New Yorker, Jan 12 '09, I have no idea how to render attribution)
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 6, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
Tar,

Answers are found in the Justen Sjong slideshow (March 2006) thread which Marty linked:


The version of the Muir they have been working on follows the Muir/Shaft to the top of the p23 lieback (shown in the poster at top). The next pitches on the Shaft var. have some way sketchy death blocks which endanger not only the climbers, but folks below. So they found a way back left onto the original Muir, did a cool pitch on it, then left to Turning Point, and climbed up to the left end of the bivvy ledge on the Muir below its big upper corner. They joined the Shaft again at this point for its left traverse to Chickenhead Ledge and finish on the Shield. With something like 16 5.12-13 pitches, it's hard to comprehend taking on such a tough project, but they seem well on the way!

Justen and Rob were still working on the route at that time.
They linked it all in May 2007.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 6, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
Tar, are you suggesting that we're all in the air so much we've become flight attendants? Or does it have something to do with hot air? This is quite mysterious.

Of course, several of us are males, too.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
Thanks Clint, for ferrying that little bit of information & resizing the photo.

Anders, I was thinking mundane stylistic & competitive primpers/preeners, but you got some good stuff going there too.
(I would never suggest that to be female would be a "cut")...
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 6, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
2 more photos of the PreMuir (5 pitch var. to the Shaft)


The "p24" stemming corner on the original Muir, reached after traversing left above the Shaft p23 lieback.



From Tim Kemple's photography site (Portfolio 2, final image on the far right)
http://www.kemplemedia.com/#
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
It's absolutely mind-boggling way cool to even imagine free climbing like that up there on the big stone.
kb

climber
novato,ca
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
Pretty funny Dingus. I remember when you wrote that letter, can't say I thought it would resurface like it has. Don't ask Pitons because I'm not telling.
Sir loin of leisure...

Trad climber
X
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
the big stone is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 6, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
peets™?
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 7, 2009 - 12:26am PT
Holy Molly!

Where do I start, how about this, Thank you! For all your kind words!

I learn to climb studying Freedom of the Hills, an old climbing book. A free ascent was using only your hands and feet climbing from point A to B without hanging on the rope. If you guys want to split pubic hairs over fixed stoppers, pre placed gear blah, blah, blah... Have at it. You have more time on your hands than me.

Roy, back when me and the Kid tried the Muir very few had done much, El Cap just going free was a mystery. Lynn cranking the nose, was cool, but followed a line of chipped holds, Skinner wasn't at that time, fully believed.

We basically, where boldly going (in our simple minds) where no man had gone before. Maybe we had to much green tea, but we thought ground up was the way to go. We knew our style was not perfect, and people would bag on us, but they did anyway, so we just thought f*#k it.

I really think the strange thing about our bodies was the angle of the rock got us weaker than sport climbing, the moves and climbing was mostly foot work and balance, so many days in a row wasn't a big deal. Both me and Kurt where in 5.14 climbing shape when we started. We got weaker, over the course of the climb.

We ate well rested and drank tons of water on the wall, that help a lot. If I was to do it again, I would probably not change a thing. If people are looking for a perfect human in me; that you will not find. I am sure my logic is sometimes strange and imperfect. I feel somethings are valid and other are not. But let me make this very clear, it is how I feel, not how you should feel, it is not right or wrong only my reality.

I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I rap from the top on a big wall, I would see a cheater and a coward, but if you rap from the top and see a big hero have at it, it's your novel, and your life.

I turn 45 today, made some more bad Kung Fu movies, and did some scary wire gags. The guys I work with only know I use to climb rocks and think I eat granola bars and wear tie die.

Mark you are a hero, fat aid climber have a right to bitch, I am glad Roy didn't crash his truck, and Kurt is fighting for the strip mining to stop. Me and Kurt have only climb once since,... sadly. Me and Epi are still good friends. More because we just moved on and did different stuff.

There wasn't any money in climbing back then and we needed to make a living, it was our swan song in a way, I just wish I had the time to go and free the big proud line on the big stone by the road.

As I said earlier, you will live with your choices, your ethic and climbs become your past and legacy.... choose wisely, but more than anything believe in yourself, if you approve of your own deeds it matter not what other think.



the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2009 - 07:08am PT
Coz,
Very well said ad i agree 100%.
It is easy to look back and say "shoulda, coulda, woulda,"
Simple fact is we wanted to honor the style of the first ascent and no add bolts to their line. That was the mission and if we got to free 50% we would be psyched. Turns out we got 99% and got bagged near the top and then bagged on the summit by very overzealous govt rangers.

This route is the highlight of my climbing life and i look at these pictures and remember good times, hard work and mystery everyday. Spending the time on the wall with two friends that i have spent a lot of time with makes these memories that much better to relive.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and that is what makes this country so great.

ks
Mike.

climber
Jan 7, 2009 - 07:23am PT
Happy birthday, cos4grove.


Thanks for not adding holes to the existing route. Mucho respect for that respect.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 7, 2009 - 07:38am PT
Happy Birthday Scott Cosgrove!!!

That's good you took some time to put those responses together, so thanks.

What climbers know or don't know about training always intrigues me, as my wife, being a distance runner, has so much science to fall back on. There is the idea that one would take a pulse in the morning and not train if it is too high; but, like climbers, even she and her friends rarely obey the white coat wisdom quite that well.

I was just reading Tommy's account of the Dihedral Free and also got that about getting weaker while free climbing on walls, vs sport. I think he says that's one reason, as a follow up to hard days working the route, he was bouldering afterwards. I enjoyed reading the account. It's good we got your article up here too!
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 7, 2009 - 08:25am PT
Roy,

I had a really well thought out training program back in the day, I would train for one peak day a week, basically only climbing three days a week hard and two days easy. I study lots, ate right, sleep and ran 50 miles a week. Lots of weight training and pull ups and finger hangs.

I kept a work out log and found more than two days rest and I got weaker, not stronger.

But the Muir, was tough, because we hauled, and climbed everyday for 54 with very little rest if any. At the end I was a full number grade down on the sport routes.

My body today is a basically riddle with over use injuries, I saw a stack of top doctor who all told me do not stop climbing. In fact the less I climb and work out the more pain I feel. If I do not climb for a month my shoulder freezes up. Nothing works but fighting through the pain and at a certain point it stops.

I took every kind of medication from new age to old school, all forms of healing, even went as far as an energy healer. Nothing helped except Thai massage, really helped for me. Now I take nothing for the pain or joints.



I would have done lots different training wise when I first started climbing, the first four years is when I did most on of the damage.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 7, 2009 - 08:31am PT
Thanks again Scott, that's the kind of detail I thought might be interesting.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 7, 2009 - 08:51am PT
Thanks, guys!

Coz - do you still climb? Very much? Very hard? Obviously you gave it your all for a long long time to achieve what you did, and returning to that level of fitness might be next to impossible, or just too damn painful.

So do you compromise? Keep wobbling up easier grades? Or is it not as satisfying if you can't keep pulling the hard numbers?
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:06am PT
Tar: "What climbers know or don't know about training always intrigues me"

Sometimes I wonder if there is any real science at all beyond "work harder for longer = get stronger".

Coz: "I would have done lots different training wise when I first started climbing, the first four years is when I did most on of the damage. "

I would like to hear more about what you would do different.
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:08am PT
It took a lot for Rob and Justen to send that variation. Rob got even more obsessive than normal. He was working all week in Santa Cruz, then he would get off drive to Yosemite, hike the east ledges and immediately start mini-traxioning the pitches. They barely squeezed out their ascent. It was super proud. Rob and Justen pulled that thing together in part because of their determination and intense work ethic.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:22am PT
West Face - 5.11b *** (20p: 4 5.11), FFA - Ray Jardine, Bill Price, 5/79
Salathe' Wall, all but 250' freed, Max Jones, Mark Hudon, Spring 1979


As a historical note here, Bill and Ray were hiking up to the West Face when we were up on the Salathe. They were yelling up good luck wishes and we yelled down the same.
We had told them that no matter what, after the Salathe, we were going up on the West Face.
When we saw Bill later, he told us how hard it was but we told him we wanted no further information, no rack, no topo, no nothing. We did the 2nd ascent about two day after getting off the Salathe.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:33am PT
Coz, Kurt, Epi, Max, Mark, Paul and Todd are all people whose climbing achievements I respect and were true visionaries. It is always futile to judge "style." It is a moving target and as Micronut pointed out of little concern except to the persons involved. Respect for the stone is the constant and something I think almost everyone shares.

The next generation of climbers will always be stronger and faster, having benefited from the achievements and innovations of those who came before.

I don't know Justin and many of the newer hardcore climbers, but they are carrying on the tradition and share the same passion for climbing that has motivated all of us (even us 5.9+ climbers too).

Awesome post and proud climb.



Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:35am PT
Coz wrote

"As I said earlier, you will live with your choices, your ethic and climbs become your past and legacy.... choose wisely, but more than anything believe in yourself, if you approve of your own deeds it matter not what other think. "

Good words. Is this a change of heart or do you believe different things about yourself than for other people?

I think the Muir was a fine attempt and hate even calling it that because I feel you did a LOT more to free the route than Caldwell, who comes along with extra talent to free what others have put the pioneering efforts and bolts into. Not putting him down but you guys stepped up to the plate.

Still, I think what nags at me is that previously on this thread, and incessantly on the South Face of Half Dome thread were some remarks that seemed very self-righteous putting other people and their climbs down as not sufficiently bold enough, even calling for the removal of their climb.

I kinda don't get it. You seems to strongly and firmly believe that it's somehow WAY bolder and more adventurous to spend a LONG, LONG time fixing lines from the ground up on an A2 trade route, cleaning and preprotecting pitches (with gear very, very close in the pictures) and claim that is a bold adventure and yet somebody rapping in from the top to work the moves is such a whole different animal that it deserves public reprobation?

Either way, you are sure to reach the top. Either way, you don't risk a fall that you haven't pre-programmed. Either way, you don't know if you can do the pitch until you work at it and succeed or fail? Is it just a mind game?

Power Bolting may have some style advantages over rap bolting, but it creates just as slippery a slope that could be misused by future parties. (and isn't that one of your big fears for the SFHD?)

If you were more "live and let live" I wouldn't be typing this here. There is no doubt you were a part of the pioneering of freeing the Big Walls. No doubt you climbed hard, and in other places, often bold.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, I keep reading this lamenting that says "We cared for style and boldness BITD, and the young guys today don't, they're light and are screwing things up)

It just ain't true. It's the same as it ever was. It would be easy to make the case that recent generations have done some things in way better style and bolder than your generation but that would fail to acknowledge the pioneering example setting.

Some are very bold and some aren't. The same climber even, like you, might rap bolt one day and run it out somewhere else.

So all I'm saying is, I'm feeling that the greatness of remembering the Muir climb feels somewhat sullied by the self-righteous air in which it is being presented. Let's face it, it was very hard, very pioneering and visionary, but it wasn't bold and you made many of the same tradeoffs between safety, sucess, and boldness that many modern parties continue to make. No foul unless you don't see that.

Peace

Karl




WBraun

climber
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:41am PT
The next generation will be stronger?

Strength is measured by how hard one climbs and how hard the route became?

Those guys that climbed mount Everest in the 50's seemed way tougher and stronger.

The measure of strength now a days is so warped.

They first hiked to the top and planted their pride.
Next they climbed to the top and planted their pride.
Next they looked for more direct lines and planted their pride on top.

But in the end they all returned to the bottom ......
Barbarian

Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:46am PT
I posted this on an earlier thread:

Climbing has rules...

Mine are:
1. Climb it from the bottom
2. Place no bolts
3. Pound no pins
4. Chip no holds
5. Leave no trace, no trash
6. If you can't climb it in style..leave it for someone else

These are the rules I've chosen to follow. I won't attempt to impose them on you.
My rules aren't better; they simply ensure that my climbing will have no impact on yours. Again, my choice.


That said I have no problem with Coz, Kurt and Eps cruise up the Shaft. I admire the fact that they went from the bottom up, and have no problem with the power bolting. They have been honest about their style and the choices that made. Those do not detract from some very bold and inspired climbing.

I have no problem with anyone who raps in and rehearses either. As was said earlier...its their novel, not mine! Personally, I'd like to go back to the Nose....haven't been on it since 1980. If it doesn't go all free and in a day for me (and it won't), I'll still consider it a proud effort if it goes using my rules above.

Climb on ....and thanks for a great set of pictures and the stories behind them.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:59am PT
Werner wrote

"Those guys that climbed mount Everest in the 50's seemed way tougher and stronger.

The measure of strength now a days is so warped. "

Humans aren't so different and yet, out of pride, each generation has a tendency to put down the other.

Lots of exceptions to this I'm sure.

Were the 50 guys really stronger and tougher? I'd hate to climb Everest with wool but I'd hate to do it without O2 either. I'd hate to climb the Nose with only a few pins and nasty ropes, but I'd hate to have to do it free in a day.

Same as it ever was. Standards go up and now people train and do nutrition instead of just boldly going where noone has gone before.

There is no superior generation, just some outstanding individuals and changing circumstances and culture in which to do it in

Peace

Karl
Walleye

climber
The Pillored Entrance of the Same Mansion
Jan 7, 2009 - 10:25am PT
"But in the end they all returned to the bottom ...... "

Yeah, dirt nap in terminal dreamland.....
WBraun

climber
Jan 7, 2009 - 11:11am PT
There is no superior generation.

Oh yes there was.

No long ago there were people who could take your pulse and knew exactly what was wrong with your body and how to treat it.

Just by taking your pulse.

No one can do it today anymore. No one.

All inferior methods now.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 7, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
Karl,

I think you love a red herring argument. I have stated time after time that my ethic are my own and I really do not care how others climb. I like to state my views because I have a strong believe in a higher level of being. That as humans we must strive for better.

I see you and I share many of the same views in other forums, I think you are a smart and educated guy and would love to do that long route on the GPA you like so much. I think we would get to know one another better. I am sure we'd have a lot to talk about.

The SFHD is apples and oranges to rehearsing the summit pitches on El Cap. I stand by everything I ever said. I think over 2000 post says it best, and Katie article in Alpinist.

But, I will not be told by you or anyone else to stop expressing myself. It was a free country eight years ago, and hopefully will be one again soon. I think far too many people are afraid of what people will think of them, I am not one of them.

Peace is a state of mind,



pedge

Trad climber
SW
Jan 7, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
Mr. Coz, I appreciate your taking the time to repeat your perspective on the approach to the climb and how it suited(suits) you and your own climbing ambitions. I wish more people had that sort of clarity about why they are climbing in a certain manner, what they are trying to get out of it and how they measure their own success.
WBraun

climber
Jan 7, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
Bump for the Kid and the coz .... hahahaha

Coz remembers? ,,, when we were on that route at ribbon falls near the top. Three different ways to go. Finally coz gets finds the right way and eats the dirt.

The dirt was all over your face and in your teeth. I was laughing so hard cause you had that funny look on your face.

Hahaha

And now back to all your Muir wall epics .....
aldude

climber
Monument Manor
Jan 7, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
Hey Karl - coz don't need no rope *

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 7, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
Coz wrote

"I think you love a red herring argument. I have stated time after time that my ethic are my own and I really do not care how others climb......
The SFHD is apples and oranges to rehearsing the summit pitches on El Cap. I stand by everything I ever said. I think over 2000 post says it best, and Katie article in Alpinist....."

Thing is Coz, I have zero doubt, at least from my side, that I would enjoy your company and respect you. I have many friends who can be seemingly hyprocritical in their views and still value them much. I just don't gloss over it. Being a friend means calling them on their sh#t and not pretending it doesn't stink.

So I take no pleasure in reflecting that your post above seems contradictory. You call for someone else to erase their route based on style and yet your own style, proclaimed as bold, is so mostly by your own definitions.

I'm not telling you to shut up at all. I'm just calling the clarity of your judgments and moralisms to question. They are here and on the SFHD thread for all to see. I can't believe you would appoint yourself judge and executioner as to whose definition of boldness and style should be allowed to stand.

So I just think you are being blind because your identity has stuff riding on the heroic past, which is real, but not at the expense of other's visions. I don't think you see yourself doing it Coz.

You've put down the following generations and other's styles when your own is also human. They don't deserve it as they have most certainly lived up to the past and exceeded it in boldness and vision, and taken it to the far reaches as well. Don't try to climb on their shortcomings as they have certainly respected your achievements.

peace

Karl
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 7, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
Cool thread and story. I appreciate Coz's openness and reasons for his style choices. That is actually the coolest thing about the thread IMHO.

I got a kick out reading DMT's letter to climbing, pretty funny that he should be upset about what might be perceived at worst as a noise impact, something that was gone with the wind. I find it ironic since I brought up another issue when I was new to this board concerning the Hood Ornament placed on El Cap by Leo H. For some reason the fact that Climbing Mag hailed him as the Trad Climber of the year and reported about the hood ornament stuck in my craw. I had no issues with a guy like LH being ID'ed as the trad climber of the year (hell, I dont even remember the year now), but the thought that the example given by the mag was the Hood Ornament Climb seemed a wrong example of trad climber of the year. DMT disagree with me about the Hood Ornament thing yet gripes about something far less evil in my book.

Frankly, I dont care too much about any of this style /ethics stuff, especially in light of Coz's statement

"If people are looking for a perfect human in me; that you will not find. I am sure my logic is sometimes strange and imperfect. I feel somethings are valid and other are not. But let me make this very clear, it is how I feel, not how you should feel, it is not right or wrong only my reality."

This statement elevates him above any fray in my book, despite those who may still attempt to engage him in what usually ends up as "gutter ethics threads".

BTW for PTPP, Pink-Point seemed to be a phrase coined near the end of the lycra era. No manly sport climber would use that term these days. Then again, they dont wear tights like we did back then either...
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 7, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
I dont know, Karl, that sounds kind of harsh and all encompassing, I humbly disagree.

I do remember Coz disagreeing with the rap and drill style. I dont remember him trashing "the following generations". Nor do I think that rapping and drilling the SFHD "have most certainly lived up to the past and exceeded it in boldness and vision."

Anyone who has ventured ground-up into new terrain and rapp-bolted most honestly can identify the differences. They are both a hell of a lot of work, especially on the scale of HD and EC. Different strokes for sure.

But calling people on their sh&& can be considered a friendly thing. The difficulty lies in doing it on ST, not so sure that lies within the friends helping friends thing....

BTW PEACE!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 7, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
I can see where you're coming from Karl.
Coz has come out rather strongly on these issues.
'Sort of wondered when, questioning his tone, court might open!

Years ago, it occurred to me, it came to me in a flash...
"Gee Kurt & Coz aren't perfect? Like WTF"
I did a double take, then relaxed.

I now feel that Cozzy has just about set us straight as he can about himself:

"If people are looking for a perfect human in me; that you will not find. I am sure my logic is sometimes strange and imperfect. I feel somethings are valid and other are not. But let me make this very clear, it is how I feel, not how you should feel, it is not right or wrong only my reality."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 7, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
Coz has called for the SFHD route to be erased. He's standing by that. In the face of this thread, it seems hypocritical to be proclaiming the boldness of aiding a trade route and preprotecting it like a sport route with fixed lines up for long periods to 1500 feet.

That demands an answer particularly when he stomps on the future generations with blanket statements like

"It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.

Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method."

NO ONE? Tell it to the younsta who free soloed the dome!

PEace through truth

Karl

PS Doesn't mean we can't love Coz or me too for that matter. We're letting our freak flags fly, let's fly em!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 7, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
Karl,

Did Coz speak of boldness, or did he speak of adventure? I have problems with both terms.

I don't see anything bold about free climbing an A2 route, especially with pre-placed pro on the existing route, or by taking a power drill to place bolts on new ground. Compare this to the boldness of the Hubers or the dudes this fall on Eagle's Way, both teams of which I watched take huge whippers while working their free climbs. Those were bold efforts because of the risk of falling that were continually taken. But in fairness, I'm not sure Coz ever proclaimed his climbing as bold. Technically difficult - desperate, even! - sure.

I have constantly wondered what he has meant by adventure, though, and why he considered their free climbing on The Shaft to be adventurous? At least the slant on the writing, to me, appears to have been, "we had a really great adventure, a much more adventurous ascent than many others."

Is a long time on the wall more adventurous? Fixed ropes and sherpas? Perhaps he means the uncertainty of the free climbing? But I do knott think that the single unknown quality - "will we be able to free climb every pitch or knott" - is sufficient on its own to necessarily make it a great adventure, or greater than any adventure you make when you climb El Cap.

Thoughts?

Good grief, golsen! How can you use "manly" and "sport climber" in the same sentence?
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Jan 7, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
" got a kick out reading DMT's letter to climbing, pretty funny that he should be upset about what might be perceived at worst as a noise impact, something that was gone with the wind."

Back then I imagined big brother was about to step on us all. I thought regulation and climbing permits were just around the corner. I know better now. It took time but I slowly came to understand that the drill wasn't a big deal in the grand scheme of climbing. I can't even comment on the route of course so I won't offer meaningless platitudes.

I have since unwittingly power drilled in a wilderness area, myself. Didn't do it on purpose though - a case of map reading.

I far more identify the spirit and purpose of Coz and Kurt than I do the guys who busted them, I know that. While Coz is not warm and cuddly, I totally respect that dude and his contributions to climbing. Same with The General, though he IS warm and cuddly hehe.

At a deep level I was reacting to the tone I perceived in the complaint letter, btw. I see now its a writing style.

Jackson was right to slap me around. I took the DMT handle, first because I love it and its a damn good pen name. I've put it to good use. Hell DMT has signed over a hundred Sierra registers since, topped out on big walls and wilderness FAs. My climbing partners call me Dingus, and (hehe) so do my kids.

2ndly to remember to mind what I say to about CLIMBING to MY CLIMBING BETTERS.

Montani semper liberi

DMT
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 7, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
I'm with Karl on this one. That is a redicoulus statement for coz to make after turning the Muir into a big sport climb with clips every 5 ft (as pictured).
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Jan 7, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
Karl,
Platinum Rob and I met Coz briefly in the Joshua Tree Santana's with Aldude. He seemed pretty cool. F*#k, he was eating a California Burrito-doesn't get much cooler than that.

He has different beliefs than some people. So what? His words are backed up by his actions and that's why he is bad ass.
WBraun

climber
Jan 7, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
That's right James.

Coz is coz and so be it.

Let me give you a little example.

Scary ass highball boulder problem. He goes up and I could already envision what would happen if he falls at the crux. You could break your back. No fukin pads here.

I try and talk him not going for it. Off course he goes for it and falls and I thought when he hit the boulder below that crux he broke his back. He's laying there on the ground moanin and groanin big time. He's toast for sure. Big ass swelling coming up to boot.

WTF does he do, hahahah. He get's up and starts right back up on this stupid thing and does it.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 7, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
Werner,

Yes tell us about Coz & the Ribbon Falls Amphitheater route...

Or Coz, let's hear about Return to the Stone Age, over by Bridalveil Falls.
Or the North Face of Higher Rock, ...or ...

Coz, you pink pointing weenie ... you just got no balls that's the problem.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
hahahahahahaaaahhhhahaha.
That's our boy!
The General.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 7, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
Hahaha, Deuce!

Where would the world be without these people who make it the landscape that a number of us recognize?
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Jan 7, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
Yeah werner,
The sh#t he did at the Klinghoffer boulders at Castle...whoa-whoa-wee-wa!
I can fall from anything but I definitely would not get caught trying that sh#t.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 8, 2009 - 12:07am PT
Just in case anybody might misinterpret:

Think the Man is awesome.

Know a lot of great men.

Most great men have some passionate strengths and sometime bold inconsistencies.

and people look up to em, for many good reasons.

But, like our presidents, or preachers, or a star athlete, they are remembered for their words and deeds, and sometimes we fail to see their human side until they stumble.

Kinda like the Dean Potter controversies more recently. A very, very bold guy, much like the type Cos says don't exist anymore. Still, the guy is a visionary but goes out of some shakey limbs and people start calling him on it.

Puts a man in a place where he looks within and asks, "What's real and do I stand for? Am I not seeing something"

Don't know what Answers Dean got.

I'm asking Coz serious questions because he is a substantial guy whose opinion matters. I want him to step up to his challenges regarding the climbing scene that followed his generation because I find his judgments to be without merit, inasmuch as the judgments made against his generation by the previous old guard were without merit.

I think it of as honoring him with the warning. "Here's what you just said about a whole generation of climbers... Sure you mean it? Where's proof, in it's failures or sucesses"

Here's just the opening salvo again

""It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.

Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method."

I don't think of this whole issue I'm raising as a Coz thing at all, it's just a lazy egoic tendency that older generations have laid on the the youngsters throughout the ages. I didn't like it when I was young, so I stand up to the bully of it now.

Peace

Karl
jghedge

climber
Jan 8, 2009 - 12:38am PT

Mark Hudon wrote:

"...let's call a spade a spade. Pinkpointing an El Cap route is not Free Climbing an El Cap route."

Google "lynn hill great roof nose" and you'll find this:

"On September 14, Hill and Sandahl headed up one of the world's greatest pieces of rock. The first day they free climbed 21 pitches up to 5.12A with many in the 5.11/11+ category, to the Great Roof, using the chiseled Jardine variation on pitch 14. The next day Hill pre-protected the Great Roof, worked it, then redpointed it. Sandhal said, 'Lynn would stem over her head in the crux. It was totally wicked.'"

I wouldn't want to be the one who tells Lynn that Pink-Pointing ain't Free Climbing.


Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 8, 2009 - 05:23am PT
Are you afraid?
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2009 - 05:56am PT
great photo duece! Was that shot from the general dynamics day you were @ the base?

wow it's funny to read you guys just picking cos apart! Looks like you are part of the unemployed and have nothing to do all day but be on this site!
Again- this is what i love about
america, everybody has a chance to SPRAY. ST is like the deli but with a bigger audience!

I liked Werners last post about Cos and highball bouldering. I also want to point out that the year before, Cos was in a horrific car accident and was tossed out of the back of a pick up @ 70 miles an hour and shattered his ankle! the docs wanted to amputate and they said he would not walk normal again, let alone CLIMB the freaking big stone!

So second guess us all you want, go back and re-read the article and make your statements because you can. But realize that in the end i'll keep my memories and dreams alive and be proud that climbing has given me so much and i have tried to return the favor over the years..


ks
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 8, 2009 - 05:57am PT
Word.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 8, 2009 - 07:44am PT
Point taken and rather nicely elucidated Karl.
Coz just wants to hold that ground; harsh as it seems, there he stands.
In the end it's just a point somewhere along the historical curve, an opinion which has its place.


Time to move on to your next batch of slides Kurt.

...Like the ones from 1985 and so forth; plus don't forget to enumerate the tick list from that year like you did for your exploits during 1984, that was fun and informative.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2009 - 07:57am PT
sweetleaf!
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jan 8, 2009 - 08:06am PT
Hey kid, hope you've changed your hairstyle!or do you even have any hair these days! hehehehe
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 8, 2009 - 08:19am PT
"I don't see anything bold about free climbing an A2 route, especially with pre-placed pro on the existing route, or by taking a power drill to place bolts on new ground. "

In 1994, it was considered bold.

As Tarbuster said, most people here get it, except maybe you and Karl.

Just as an aside - do you consider spending 1/2 hr beating an equalized mess of copperheads into the rock, then hanging a screamer from them, all 3 ft above the last mess - that's bold? I'm not sure I can accept "no" from you, because you've spent the last decade spewing all over the internet about it.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 8, 2009 - 08:30am PT
There's one thing I sure would like to apologize for. (even though I'm not sorry in the sense of "I wouldn't do it again or think I was wrong)

Kurt and Coz had a visionary adventure and were big figures in some large climbing and living. It would have been nice for this thread to be a place to celebrate them and slap them on the back for all that they are.

I feel it myself, and so am sorry to inject the element of "wait a minute...." into this thread.

I don't think it was uncalled for, given the statement I referenced and more that I won't search out.

I'm glad some folks understand that some vivid smack talkin' can be the spice of two sides of a conversation/dispute/clarification and hope it doesn't detract from the bro-hood that many feel with the Man and the Kid General.

Kurt wrote

"Again- this is what i love about
america, everybody has a chance to SPRAY. ST is like the deli but with a bigger audience!"

Yeah man! It wasn't like we sat around with prissy manners and talked all nicey talk.

Peace

Karl
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 8, 2009 - 08:42am PT
JLP, You are misunderstanding Karl.

I don't personally agree with rap bolting, but some of the run outs that Jones had to do on very technical ground after the ropes were pulled were just as bold as the guys working pre-protected pitches on Muir. Jones did the bottom half ground up with no powerdrill.

But coz is painting one route as bold and adventurous and the other as a criminal blight. That's the crux of what Karl is getting at.

My feeling is that in both cases, the outcome was known. Not necessarily the "freeness" of it but the completion of it in one way or another.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 8, 2009 - 10:01am PT
"JLP, You are misunderstanding Karl."

I think my understanding of Coz is clear. He places the ground up ethic as more fundamental and important than preplaced gear. The gear he relied on was placed into the rock ground up by an aid climber, versus top down doing whatever. It's a simple difference that is clear to most in this thread, I believe. You can certainly disagree with him on a "boldness" basis, however claiming ethical hypocracy is, as he said, Red Herring.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 8, 2009 - 10:01am PT
"But coz is painting one route as bold and adventurous and the other as a criminal blight. That's the crux of what Karl is getting at. "

Sort of, but I'm also responding to Coz's blanket statements regarding the death of boldness and style, when they have been dished up in spades in recent years.

Here's one that shows the old style has been matched and far exceeded

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=701579&msg=701579

That's a bold way of hitting El Cap free

http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/lostintranslation/

"On August 30, Ivo Ninov of Bulgaria, and Nico Favresse of Belgium, established Lost in Translation (V 5.12b/c), a new 10-pitch free route on El Capitan. This is the first time a ground-up, free first ascent has ever happened on El Cap.

Lost in Translation climbs the far east face of the Captain, climbing some pitches on the Waterfall Route, Get Whacked, Darkstar, and Chinese Water Torture, according to Ninov. “I will recommend it; it has a lot of high-quality climbing,” says Ninov, but only skilled climbers with strong lead heads need apply: most of the route involves run out 5.10+ climbing on small gear. "

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=395705

"Today (Monday) Alex Climbed the Salathe with no falls. He started at the bottom and went to the top in one push. He combined the three pitches from Sous le Toit ledge to the top of the Roof and also combined the next two pitches (the headwall cracks) from the top of the Roof to Long Ledge. He did the Monster Offwidth pitch. Alex led all the pitches. The way we did the climb was by spending a day hiking bivy gear up the East Ledges and rapping down to the Block on the Salathe. We then started at the bottom of the Salathe and Alex led all pitches to the Block. We then rested a day on the block using our previously stashed bivy gear and then climbed the remainder of the route the next day."

Course Soloing Half Dome was bolder than that.

and the Rostrum and Astroman have been soloed in the same day with pretty much the same gear we've alway had, our bodies and a pair of shoes.

Just sayin it loudly in response to the attitude reflected by the quote I've pasted above in other posts. The present is not lame, modern climbers have not lost their spirit, don't be a cranky geezer Coz, people look up to you too much for that.

I'm just saying, the torch is still burning for those who love torch light. To each his and her own

Peace

karl


survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 8, 2009 - 10:13am PT
JLP

Rap bolt then free = pre-placed pro & previewing.

Aid then free = pre-placed pro & previewing.

One is not more "criminal" than the other.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 8, 2009 - 10:22am PT
To be fair, the guys said one aided and placed the pro and the other freed.

Doesn't mean it was all run out and scary, but it seems it wasn't previewed

Peace

karl
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 8, 2009 - 10:24am PT
All in all, it was pretty bad ass, any way ya slice it. I mostly avoid free climbing up there. I doubt I'm the only one.
Maybe I'll change my name to "Dangles in Aiders".
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Jan 8, 2009 - 10:35am PT
Cool ass thread! Pretty inspiring to hear the stories straight from y'all. Thanks for taking the time...


I was a little bummed to read that my generation has no soul and no chance at being bitchen as y'all....but it sure takes the pressure off a bit!!! LOL


Carry on, cause I'm loving this! More stories and pictures!
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 8, 2009 - 11:07am PT
Karl,
yes, I know that one aided and the other freed. It's still a "subtle" form of previewing. I don't think that they passed no beta on to one another.

Most guys would inform each other a bit.

"Yeah, that little fold up there seems to be the worst of it, but there's a solid lock above that little lip...."
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 8, 2009 - 11:48am PT
"...let's call a spade a spade. Pinkpointing an El Cap route is not Free Climbing an El Cap route."

Google "lynn hill great roof nose" and you'll find this:

"On September 14, Hill and Sandahl headed up one of the world's greatest pieces of rock. The first day they free climbed 21 pitches up to 5.12A with many in the 5.11/11+ category, to the Great Roof, using the chiseled Jardine variation on pitch 14. The next day Hill pre-protected the Great Roof, worked it, then redpointed it. Sandhal said, 'Lynn would stem over her head in the crux. It was totally wicked.'"

I wouldn't want to be the one who tells Lynn that Pink-Pointing ain't Free Climbing.


Hmmm... hung by my own petard it would seem, eh?

Although I guess I could use Coz's argument that my morals may not make any sense to anyone else but at least I have morals and they are firmly held and that's the argument I'm making and I'm sticking to it. ;-)
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 8, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
"That's a bold way of hitting El Cap free "

Karl - I can understand a couple euros not understanding the difference between the talus field and the wall, but I was figuring you would know better.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 8, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
Survival,

I don't know either of them that well, I've never met Coz and I haven't spoken to Kurt in at least 25 years but I trust their desire for adventure and challenge. I would bet they arranged the gear a little bit to best protect a free climber but I would also bet they didn't let slip any details of the pitch. Maybe if there was some death block up there somewhere but nothing else.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 8, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
Fair enough Mark, I just don't know.

medusa

Trad climber
culver city
Jan 8, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
Karl, I climbed with scott a bunch last year. That man can still crank. Off the couch or trained. He can still climb better than most people. He works 60 to 100 hours a week. When he gets a day to have fun He can Kill your ass on a Mt bike, boulder or free climb. And he Is way more than just a climber. That Man Has Act together Business owner,Home owner (Many) and financhely. And allways trying to help other people get ahead in life. Mucho Respect for the Coz man. DFWH!
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 8, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
Karl,

You do not understand what I am saying, you flat out need it explain to you and your peers are trying, but you don't listen.

The current generation is way more bad ass than I ever dream of, I never even dreamed El Cap would be a free climber paradise. I am no grumpy old geezer, you just lack the brain stem apparently to grasp the secondary meaning of my words.

I just think rapping from the top is cheating so f ing what. I can not for the life of me understand what the hell Mark thinks gear in a crack has anything to do with a free ascent, but it's his novel and he can write it. I respect the hell out of him and would like to hear more about climbing.

Let us move past Karl and his diatribe.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 8, 2009 - 02:27pm PT
Hi Coz

I've made my point and am ready to move on (although it get sucked back in easy)

I just don't quite get it, i really must be dense. Folks were doing shady tactics back in your day (by you standards) and today too. I'm assuming now when you write

""It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.

Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method."

and stuff like that, that it's sorta inflated deli spew and we should just understand it's good spray and move on?

That's not the only time you've lashed out at "Modern Climbing" either. Thing is, climbing outside of what Coz likes happened during your time and the furture as well.

Or are you repudiating that speech now?

I don't need to hold your feet to the fire until you cry "Ok Ok" we can move on, but I just couldn't let it slide the first time. Sorry Bro

Peace

Karl


Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jan 8, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
Seems to me that in earlier years most all the good lines got plucked. To put up a new line nowadays sometimes tactics have to change. I'm not saying us old dogs have to change our attitude or opinion, but really thats what it is, old attitude. No disrespect meant for dudes still stuck in their decade. Times change and the young bloods are still aggro and going to make things happen regardless. I know if I could climb 5.13 I would take a whirl at the route for sure.
Gene

climber
Jan 8, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
IF the point of the Muir/Shaft effort was solely an ascent of EC without weighting or yarding on gear, Coz & friend would have pre-inspected the route and wired the crux moves. They didn’t. We all are aware of how they made their climb. Preplaced pro was used [edit: occasionally] and they got shut down near the top. Notwithstanding the preplaced pro, the outcome was never certain.

Moving over to SFHD, in that climb preplaced protection was also used. But once the decision was made to go top down, the outcome was never in doubt.

I see a difference.
gm
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jan 8, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
To put up a new line nowadays sometimes tactics have to change.

Like what tactics will we see (or have seen)? You mean like lacing trade route cruxes like the Nipple pitch with fixed gear, or placing bolts on an unrepeated aid pitch? Not talking about the Muir, or anyone in this thread...but other places on the Cap on new free link-ups...

f*#k those tactics.

coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 8, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
We didn't pink point every pitch, lots we on-sighted. Epi photos where taken with a zoom. Anyway, I hope what-ever it is you guys decide we did or didn't do.

One thing is we did not change the nature of the climb, except backing up a few anchors and adding a line to the Captain.

SFHD, growing up did change a lot of things and is apples and oranges, ground up - top down.

But someone bumped that thread, so let's go over there and fight, and I want to see some more pictures, and hear about all the new free routes on El Cap. How about the Mushroom?

golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 8, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
I find it confusing when folks dont understand the difference between ground-up and rapp and drill. Is rappelling climbing or descending??? I guess I just dont get it.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 8, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
" 'I don't see anything bold about free climbing an A2 route, especially with pre-placed pro on the existing route, or by taking a power drill to place bolts on new ground.'

In 1994, it was considered bold."


JLP - please tell me why this would be considered bold in 1994, or even 84 or 74. It may have been the first time such free climbing trickery [I am avoiding the use of the word "cheating"] was employed on a big wall, but where is the boldness? Do tell. To me, the adjective "bold" does not belong in the same sentence as the stylistic description, "pinkpoint".

Gentlemen, let us knott forget the fundamental difference between ethics and style. They are separate arguments - completely.

Certainly Coz never made any attempt to hide the pre-placed gear.

"wow it's funny to read you guys just picking cos apart! Looks like you are part of the unemployed and have nothing to do all day but be on this site!"

Er, um .... Hi. But hey - at least I don't work 60 to 100 hours per week like someone above says you do! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1111 [are the 1's or the !'s supposed to go first when you do that?]
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
Jan 8, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
"Platinum Rob and I met Coz briefly in the Joshua Tree Santana's with Aldude."

This statement confuses me more than the total hypocrisy we've been discussing for the last 100 posts or so... Santana's is a total shithole! The food is f*#king horrible. Is it the only Mexican joint in JT, or what? You *know* you're in trouble when the pictures on the menu aren't even appetizing. Once was enough for me!
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Jan 8, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
Nefarius,

You're killing me. Went to Santana's twice in keeping with tradition. Both times, I ended up in a Pit Toilet in JTree with Explosive Diarhea. Never again !!!


Cracko
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 8, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
The Kid is going to be bummed if this thread doesn't get to 300, ya know.

How about let's start ragging on them for using Eppi to haul and clean yet not contribute to the free climbing. Maybe we could then drift into a big wall slavery kind of thing.

;-)
Mimi

climber
Jan 8, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
Man, I'm so bummed I wasn't around to help with ferrying loads to the base on that one. I used to adore the various aspects of wall slavery. hahaha

Who wouldn't want GE up there.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
Jan 8, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
No doubt, Cracko!!! I hear the breakfast burritos are supposed to be OK tho. Too afraid to try now!

GE only lives about 3 mins from Santana's and I bet he doesn't even eat there! hahaha

Gene

climber
Jan 9, 2009 - 06:37am PT
bump
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 9, 2009 - 07:33am PT
What were we discussing, again?
It's lost in the drift.
yo

climber
I drink your milkshake!
Jan 9, 2009 - 07:45am PT
We were discussing how Karl has strident views on style and won't sleep until everyone agrees with him.

hehehe
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 9, 2009 - 08:30am PT
This thread has officially reached the status of SuperTorpor™
And as such, I deem it unofficially TOAST.

There will be other threads to play in.
Last person to leave the room please turn out the lights…
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 9, 2009 - 08:44am PT
Sorry, Kid, I tried.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 9, 2009 - 09:16am PT
I know, sad huh Mark, looks like even their thread isn't going to top out...
WBraun

climber
Jan 9, 2009 - 09:27am PT
It's a done deal many years ago. Only some participants from long ago in their arm chairs reflecting.

Down the road El Cap is standing there Supreme. It can not be conquered. There's no one at the bridge drinking some stupid beer projecting any hallucinations on the Captain now.

They come and go ....... but what do you really "see".
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 9, 2009 - 09:28am PT
To Mark and Tarbuster
Thanks for keeping it reel!



:-)
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 9, 2009 - 09:34am PT
It's ok Tar, we can rap in and finish it up later.......

Right on Werner.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 9, 2009 - 10:13am PT
Werner, you're SO mystical.......Dig it.
coz

Trad climber
California
Jan 9, 2009 - 11:18am PT
One more story Boys and Girl before I go. One of the coolest things about the climb was the peregrine falcons (a male and female). We saw the same pair everyday, for 54 days. They would fly around us and sit perched near us.

Me and Medusa watched them kill, a raven, sitting on Mammoth, something we both never forgot. When we top out they flew up to the rim and followed us all the way down the east ledges.

When we hiked up four or five days latter to get our stuff, they meet us on top the east ledges and followed all the way to the top, sat while we ate and packed and followed us back down. When we hike into the tree they swooped down and let out a big war cry.

It was one of those cool thing connecting with another being, I knew in my heart I showed The Mighty Captain respect...... still do.

Thanks for all your kid words and to anybody who helped us out all those years ago.
Walleye

climber
The Pillored Entrance of the Same Mansion
Jan 9, 2009 - 11:22am PT
Ah Tarbaby........... That's "Stupor Torpor" I don't know how to do the tm trademark, but "Stupor Torpor is a trademark of Walter Flint and Kevin Fosburg.

Thank you
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 9, 2009 - 11:25am PT
Here you go Walleye,
You can have yours and I will keep mine, 'K?

Stupor Torpor™
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
Jan 9, 2009 - 11:25am PT
Cool story, Coz. Thanks for sharing. :)
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 9, 2009 - 11:28am PT
Tar
You shudda said K2?


:-)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 9, 2009 - 11:31am PT
Yes well, I rip off, I mean borrow, other people's trademarks 'n shiiet here all the time.
It's just the way the taco bends...

Yes: very nice Coz.

KICKASSS™™™ in fact.
(Trademark, Russ Musswaddd™ Walling)
wildone

climber
GHOST TOWN
Jan 9, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
Coz- I got to see a Peregrine take out a raven too, from the top of lost arrow spire. My partner and I just stared at each other in disbelief for what seemed like minutes.
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jan 10, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
So, that's it, the end of the debate?



Jody's evil twin
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 10, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
There is no debate.
It was a great venture for those involved.
It was an amazing thing to see.
A shame that it ended as it did.
Another chapter in history.
That's all.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 10, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
The debate, like the climb, is what it is. Not black or white. Coming from history and evolving into the future.

Fun, adventure, friendship, stress, controversy, intensity and personalities.

Life amplified

Why do we need a final judgment?

PEace

Karl
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
Jan 10, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
Word.

History can judge as "it" sees fit.
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jan 10, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
Yes, it is a tangled web we weave in our lives, our rationalizations of dubious actions. Of course I'm always right.


Jody's evil twin
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Apr 24, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
Bump CUz The Muir is on the MOTHER EFFING TOP O DA LIST!

The beginning of this thread is badass, just check out those corners!

Mucci
Pate

Trad climber
Apr 24, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
How did I miss this one? Badass. Eppi photos too.

Those corners are polished!
tom Carter

Social climber
Apr 20, 2011 - 10:38am PT
Amazing conversation!

Thanks to all.
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Apr 20, 2011 - 10:51am PT
Bar none the upper Dihederal is one of my all time favorite places I have climbed.

Some incredible steep stuff between camp 4 and the dihederal and anyone who questions that drill BS never climbed the route pre free and saw all the old spinners that I saw on my first attempt.

Thanks Kid and awesome effort.

Was the only pitch to screw you the last one in the Dihederal????
Flaring thin it was.
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