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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Coz wrote
"I think you love a red herring argument. I have stated time after time that my ethic are my own and I really do not care how others climb......
The SFHD is apples and oranges to rehearsing the summit pitches on El Cap. I stand by everything I ever said. I think over 2000 post says it best, and Katie article in Alpinist....."
Thing is Coz, I have zero doubt, at least from my side, that I would enjoy your company and respect you. I have many friends who can be seemingly hyprocritical in their views and still value them much. I just don't gloss over it. Being a friend means calling them on their sh#t and not pretending it doesn't stink.
So I take no pleasure in reflecting that your post above seems contradictory. You call for someone else to erase their route based on style and yet your own style, proclaimed as bold, is so mostly by your own definitions.
I'm not telling you to shut up at all. I'm just calling the clarity of your judgments and moralisms to question. They are here and on the SFHD thread for all to see. I can't believe you would appoint yourself judge and executioner as to whose definition of boldness and style should be allowed to stand.
So I just think you are being blind because your identity has stuff riding on the heroic past, which is real, but not at the expense of other's visions. I don't think you see yourself doing it Coz.
You've put down the following generations and other's styles when your own is also human. They don't deserve it as they have most certainly lived up to the past and exceeded it in boldness and vision, and taken it to the far reaches as well. Don't try to climb on their shortcomings as they have certainly respected your achievements.
peace
Karl
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Cool thread and story. I appreciate Coz's openness and reasons for his style choices. That is actually the coolest thing about the thread IMHO.
I got a kick out reading DMT's letter to climbing, pretty funny that he should be upset about what might be perceived at worst as a noise impact, something that was gone with the wind. I find it ironic since I brought up another issue when I was new to this board concerning the Hood Ornament placed on El Cap by Leo H. For some reason the fact that Climbing Mag hailed him as the Trad Climber of the year and reported about the hood ornament stuck in my craw. I had no issues with a guy like LH being ID'ed as the trad climber of the year (hell, I dont even remember the year now), but the thought that the example given by the mag was the Hood Ornament Climb seemed a wrong example of trad climber of the year. DMT disagree with me about the Hood Ornament thing yet gripes about something far less evil in my book.
Frankly, I dont care too much about any of this style /ethics stuff, especially in light of Coz's statement
"If people are looking for a perfect human in me; that you will not find. I am sure my logic is sometimes strange and imperfect. I feel somethings are valid and other are not. But let me make this very clear, it is how I feel, not how you should feel, it is not right or wrong only my reality."
This statement elevates him above any fray in my book, despite those who may still attempt to engage him in what usually ends up as "gutter ethics threads".
BTW for PTPP, Pink-Point seemed to be a phrase coined near the end of the lycra era. No manly sport climber would use that term these days. Then again, they dont wear tights like we did back then either...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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I dont know, Karl, that sounds kind of harsh and all encompassing, I humbly disagree.
I do remember Coz disagreeing with the rap and drill style. I dont remember him trashing "the following generations". Nor do I think that rapping and drilling the SFHD "have most certainly lived up to the past and exceeded it in boldness and vision."
Anyone who has ventured ground-up into new terrain and rapp-bolted most honestly can identify the differences. They are both a hell of a lot of work, especially on the scale of HD and EC. Different strokes for sure.
But calling people on their sh&& can be considered a friendly thing. The difficulty lies in doing it on ST, not so sure that lies within the friends helping friends thing....
BTW PEACE!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I can see where you're coming from Karl.
Coz has come out rather strongly on these issues.
'Sort of wondered when, questioning his tone, court might open!
Years ago, it occurred to me, it came to me in a flash...
"Gee Kurt & Coz aren't perfect? Like WTF"
I did a double take, then relaxed.
I now feel that Cozzy has just about set us straight as he can about himself:
"If people are looking for a perfect human in me; that you will not find. I am sure my logic is sometimes strange and imperfect. I feel somethings are valid and other are not. But let me make this very clear, it is how I feel, not how you should feel, it is not right or wrong only my reality."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Coz has called for the SFHD route to be erased. He's standing by that. In the face of this thread, it seems hypocritical to be proclaiming the boldness of aiding a trade route and preprotecting it like a sport route with fixed lines up for long periods to 1500 feet.
That demands an answer particularly when he stomps on the future generations with blanket statements like
"It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.
Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method."
NO ONE? Tell it to the younsta who free soloed the dome!
PEace through truth
Karl
PS Doesn't mean we can't love Coz or me too for that matter. We're letting our freak flags fly, let's fly em!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Karl,
Did Coz speak of boldness, or did he speak of adventure? I have problems with both terms.
I don't see anything bold about free climbing an A2 route, especially with pre-placed pro on the existing route, or by taking a power drill to place bolts on new ground. Compare this to the boldness of the Hubers or the dudes this fall on Eagle's Way, both teams of which I watched take huge whippers while working their free climbs. Those were bold efforts because of the risk of falling that were continually taken. But in fairness, I'm not sure Coz ever proclaimed his climbing as bold. Technically difficult - desperate, even! - sure.
I have constantly wondered what he has meant by adventure, though, and why he considered their free climbing on The Shaft to be adventurous? At least the slant on the writing, to me, appears to have been, "we had a really great adventure, a much more adventurous ascent than many others."
Is a long time on the wall more adventurous? Fixed ropes and sherpas? Perhaps he means the uncertainty of the free climbing? But I do knott think that the single unknown quality - "will we be able to free climb every pitch or knott" - is sufficient on its own to necessarily make it a great adventure, or greater than any adventure you make when you climb El Cap.
Thoughts?
Good grief, golsen! How can you use "manly" and "sport climber" in the same sentence?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I'm with Karl on this one. That is a redicoulus statement for coz to make after turning the Muir into a big sport climb with clips every 5 ft (as pictured).
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Karl,
Platinum Rob and I met Coz briefly in the Joshua Tree Santana's with Aldude. He seemed pretty cool. F*#k, he was eating a California Burrito-doesn't get much cooler than that.
He has different beliefs than some people. So what? His words are backed up by his actions and that's why he is bad ass.
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WBraun
climber
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That's right James.
Coz is coz and so be it.
Let me give you a little example.
Scary ass highball boulder problem. He goes up and I could already envision what would happen if he falls at the crux. You could break your back. No fukin pads here.
I try and talk him not going for it. Off course he goes for it and falls and I thought when he hit the boulder below that crux he broke his back. He's laying there on the ground moanin and groanin big time. He's toast for sure. Big ass swelling coming up to boot.
WTF does he do, hahahah. He get's up and starts right back up on this stupid thing and does it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Werner,
Yes tell us about Coz & the Ribbon Falls Amphitheater route...
Or Coz, let's hear about Return to the Stone Age, over by Bridalveil Falls.
Or the North Face of Higher Rock, ...or ...
Coz, you pink pointing weenie ... you just got no balls that's the problem.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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hahahahahahaaaahhhhahaha.
That's our boy!
The General.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Hahaha, Deuce!
Where would the world be without these people who make it the landscape that a number of us recognize?
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Yeah werner,
The sh#t he did at the Klinghoffer boulders at Castle...whoa-whoa-wee-wa!
I can fall from anything but I definitely would not get caught trying that sh#t.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Just in case anybody might misinterpret:
Think the Man is awesome.
Know a lot of great men.
Most great men have some passionate strengths and sometime bold inconsistencies.
and people look up to em, for many good reasons.
But, like our presidents, or preachers, or a star athlete, they are remembered for their words and deeds, and sometimes we fail to see their human side until they stumble.
Kinda like the Dean Potter controversies more recently. A very, very bold guy, much like the type Cos says don't exist anymore. Still, the guy is a visionary but goes out of some shakey limbs and people start calling him on it.
Puts a man in a place where he looks within and asks, "What's real and do I stand for? Am I not seeing something"
Don't know what Answers Dean got.
I'm asking Coz serious questions because he is a substantial guy whose opinion matters. I want him to step up to his challenges regarding the climbing scene that followed his generation because I find his judgments to be without merit, inasmuch as the judgments made against his generation by the previous old guard were without merit.
I think it of as honoring him with the warning. "Here's what you just said about a whole generation of climbers... Sure you mean it? Where's proof, in it's failures or sucesses"
Here's just the opening salvo again
""It seems no one has a hold on values now, they are lost without some kind of morals. There can be no creativity without some kind of structure. We had beliefs back then a code to climb by.
Now all you have are soul-less results, without borders or method."
I don't think of this whole issue I'm raising as a Coz thing at all, it's just a lazy egoic tendency that older generations have laid on the the youngsters throughout the ages. I didn't like it when I was young, so I stand up to the bully of it now.
Peace
Karl
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2009 - 08:56am PT
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great photo duece! Was that shot from the general dynamics day you were @ the base?
wow it's funny to read you guys just picking cos apart! Looks like you are part of the unemployed and have nothing to do all day but be on this site!
Again- this is what i love about
america, everybody has a chance to SPRAY. ST is like the deli but with a bigger audience!
I liked Werners last post about Cos and highball bouldering. I also want to point out that the year before, Cos was in a horrific car accident and was tossed out of the back of a pick up @ 70 miles an hour and shattered his ankle! the docs wanted to amputate and they said he would not walk normal again, let alone CLIMB the freaking big stone!
So second guess us all you want, go back and re-read the article and make your statements because you can. But realize that in the end i'll keep my memories and dreams alive and be proud that climbing has given me so much and i have tried to return the favor over the years..
ks
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Point taken and rather nicely elucidated Karl.
Coz just wants to hold that ground; harsh as it seems, there he stands.
In the end it's just a point somewhere along the historical curve, an opinion which has its place.
Time to move on to your next batch of slides Kurt.
...Like the ones from 1985 and so forth; plus don't forget to enumerate the tick list from that year like you did for your exploits during 1984, that was fun and informative.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2009 - 10:57am PT
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sweetleaf!
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