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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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prod-
yes possibly, but they could have made far fewer mistakes under clint's design, and the length of rope between then would make more sense (but perhaps that could have slid a bit)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Prod,
Yes, Laura leading is also possible; I suspect since Dario did not mention this as a possibility, probably because she did not have the cams on her harness (I'm guessing on that).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Are there a lot of slings aroung bolt hangers at anchors that I don't know about? This seems like a totally bad idea, the hangers' inside edges are gonna bite into sling in a mean fashion. I'd do it once or twice on the same sling but older sh#t rigged through hangers...that ain't right, use some old ovals or something.
Is this common practice, most of the sh#t I run into is around trees or slung over something, not through a hanger!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Blue: note that Shannon (head of RRGCC) said that slings like that are usually 10-15 years old. I know of several slings around Yosemite like this. None of them are what I'd call safe.
Edit: I'm not the best artist and it's not an extremely accurate drawing. It's just to give people some idea.
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WBraun
climber
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You know of several slings around Yosemite like this.
You do? Where?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Roger and I and others cleaned off many old belay slings in Yosemite the past two summers while rebolting at Glacier Point, Arches Terrace, and Middle Cathedral North Face Apron. Even the really faded ones usually still hold body weight. Very few can be ripped apart by hand, unless they are so bad that they are already partly torn apart, like in Rich's photo upthread. The only time I have been able to rip apart slings by hand which looked like they might hold was at Hetch Hetchy, where they get extremely high UV exposure.
But I think Werner may be using some sarcasm here? :-)
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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One example: Climb the first pitch of Super Slab and rappel about 30 feet down the tree slings. About 20-40 feet around the cliff left of the 5.8 offwidth (Trial By Fire?), you'll see two bolts with several faded slings that have almost no color slung on two bolts. I was unhappy to find it one evening when we got off the route really late. Edit: A carabiner could not be clipped through the bolts, because there were so many pieces of 1" webbing.
There's one on Parkline too, at the top of one a sport climb that still has quarter inch bolts. I also recall seeing some on Glacier Point Apron in 2007.
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WBraun
climber
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So ....
In the old daze, people had hammers and could smash the slings in half.
Now-a-days you have to carry a big ass hairy knife to cut the tat.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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"A carabiner could not be clipped through the bolts, because there were so many pieces of 1" webbing. "
So chop the tat and either use a new sling or sacrifice 2 ovals or whatever.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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really sad.
personally, i was fortunate to have lived thru my first year or two of technical climbing, quite aside from the standard alpine hazards.
lots of folks have gotten away with sketch. that includes almost everyone who posts here, and many of our heroes. (read the sacherer thread. i could include tons of examples from folks we all admire, but don't see the point, here.)
we've gone thru three generations since the 1970s. in the first, fixed nylon was a novelty. in the second, fixed nylon was a time bomb. in the third, fixed nylon had become, again, a novelty.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Grim Reaper is always just waiting in the wings.
I figure I have used up about 5 of my nine lives.
Juan
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crazyfingers
climber
CA
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No hairy knife, just a razor blade with a fold of cardboard over the edge and a little duct tape
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ec
climber
ca
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cc, strange that you mentioned the sling from HH, the sling I mentioned in my earlier post was from Wampama in HH.
 ec
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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ec,
The bad/rippable sling at HH was on Wapama, too. Top of p2 of Wapama Mama, 10/2001. There is just an insane amount of UV exposure (and heat) there, because you get it direct and also on reflection from the reservoir. It's why we named our route on Wapama "Photomultiplier".
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Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
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I was at the site of the accident today for a memorial service. And though I just took a quick look, I think it will be very difficult to know what the exact details are, as there are a few routes / anchors / possibilities, and all seem possible. The only thing that is for sure is that they were either climbing/belaying totally unanchored, or that they experienced a total anchor failure. The bolted anchor in question is actually to the right of the 11a route about 20 feet, on the other side of it from white out. There is no established route there, it may be from an early attempt to reach the 11a crack, or just an intermediate rap station from the top of the cliff.
This is what I wrote on a thread at redriverclimbing:
"I know there are always lot of questions, but in the end, maybe the exact answers are not so important, all that really matters is something went wrong, and the consequences are severe. And that, to me, is the lessen to take away from any accident."
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jstan
climber
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That statement almost always found at the bottom of the page?
Needs to appear at the top and at every half page as you go down.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Wes,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.
To be honest, I think the reason I speculated about an alternative cause (vs. the "lowering accident" suggested by Dario), is that "I wanted to believe" they were being careful about risks. So I guessed a story that made me feel slightly better than having both of them clipped into a bad sling.
I agree with your perspective - something went wrong, and they didn't have a proper anchor or system to prevent tragedy.
Ben and Laura's deaths will be hard on many people. I was badly injured in a climbing accident at age 21, and I didn't realize until then how my parents felt partly responsible for my risk taking.
I adapted a bit after that "close call"; hopefully I am better at dealing with risks now, although not all factors can be controlled.
It's sad that for some people their first accident is fatal and they don't get a second chance to reconsider their risks.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Nov 14, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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Someone posted up at the begining: keep your opinions to yourself. I am not making any criticisms of these climbers or any comments on this particular case.
Regarding all climbing: Mother Nature is not always a nice teacher, because sometimes she starts with the Final Exam. Many of us were more lucky than smart.
CC: Thanks for posting such a reasonable analysis (your posts are uniformly done with reason and without flame).
I think we all hate raps because so much depends on so little. I remember being taught when I started some 39 years ago: always back up the rapel point with another bomber anchor, test the first anchor in some fashion (bounce, heavier person rap first, etc) without any load-sharing on the backup. Let all the party rap except one, then once you have some faith in the bolt/sling/etc, remove the backup gear and the final person rap. Still no proof that the anchor is good, but at least it is tested. We used to do this even for bolts, as bolts can be bad but you can't tell by just looking.
And don't bounce when you go down!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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One thing I've done a lot in the past that most of my partners were probably not even aware of.
I made a bomber anchor for them, with gear backing up the sketchy raps. Then when they are safely at the bottom I take out all the backups and launch.
That means only the last person will have to lay it on the line ....
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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I made a bomber anchor for them, with gear backing up the sketchy raps. Then when they are safely at the bottom I take out all the backups and launch.
and have the heaviest guy go first.
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