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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 5, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
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http://www.kentucky.com/181/story/581807.html
Two rock climbers found dead Tuesday evening in the Red River Gorge area fell about 50 to 60 feet after frayed, discolored webbing "blew out," officials said Wednesday.
Benjamin E. Strohmeier of Hebron and Laura Fletcher of Brownsburg, Ind., both 18, were found off Ky. 11 at Emerald City, a climbing area near Natural Bridge State Park in western Wolfe County.
Crews returned to the area Wednesday morning, inspecting equipment they hadn't seen on the rock the day before, said John May, a member of Wolfe County Search and Rescue.
There was webbing, a type of strap climbers use, on an anchor bolt, and the webbing "essentially tore in half, and as a result the climbers fell," May said.
The climbers probably died from the impact, he said.
"That's the best information that we have, and that's what it looks like happened," May said. "Unless you were there and actually witnessed it, you can't say 100 percent."
Both teenagers were experienced climbers. May said crews initially thought their deaths resulted from something more than a climbing mistake.
Two climbers inspecting the area Wednesday rapelled down the climb Strohmeier and Fletcher were on and found a piece of frayed webbing about halfway down, May said.
May said the webbing probably was left on the rock by other climbers and used by Strohmeier and Fletcher. Their other equipment was in good condition. It's not uncommon for climbers to leave gear behind because of the difficulty of the climb.
Investigators say Fletcher was discovered at the bottom of the cliff, and Strohmeier had gone over another ledge and was suspended by his rope.
Both climbers were in their harnesses.
State police are investigating, but have said foul play is not suspected.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Please take that extra moment to double check the entire anchor when you rig.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Yeah that is really sad.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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I hate hearing about stuff like this - it happens too often.
I hate rappelling, and avoid it whenever possible.
Condolences to their families and friends.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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It does not appear to have been a rappelling anchor failure; more a general anchor failure. Maybe a "lowering anchor failure", but that is speculative.
The exact cause is still under investigation, but apparently she was tied in, and he was belaying. They were on a two pitch climb.
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:42 pm
climbers of the red,
I hate to bring the news from miguels. The two passed at global village around monday. Ben left Miguels monday with Laura. Their plan was to climb white-out and lower to the ledge to climb " The Man Behind the Curtain". Tuesday afternoon Jordan and Kobes drove by the parking lot and realized Ben's car was still there. Worried for their friend, they hiked up to the wall. They found Ben and Laura dead at the base of the cliff. They quickly ran down and called 911. At the scene Ben had Laura on belay and she was tied in. Ben was farther down the hill than her. Today Dan and I rapped in from the top to discover what happened. It appears that they climbed "white-out" and then lowered to the ledge half way up the wall. This ledge is the belay for the 11a "Man behind the Curtain". From what we could tell, they decided not to climb it........there was no chalk.... The anchors on the ledge were two rusty bolts with webbing run through them. At the ledge we found the webbing was broken. On the ground we had found a rap ring with blood on it.
They must have put the rope through the rap ring and started lowering Laura. The webbing broke, pulling Ben with her. There was no gear on the anchors, so we think he went in direct to the sling that he was lowering her with. The webbing was completely white. Where the webbing was against the bolt there was a faint color of its original color, dark purple. We assume they didn't notice the poor condition of the webbing. Please keep your opinions on what happened to your self.....this is what we think happened. a funeral has not been set.........thanks climbers.
Dario Ventura
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http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=10862&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Goodbye Ben & Laura thread:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=10865
If the rap ring was found loose on the ground and was not threaded onto the rope, perhaps it just fell when the sling failed. If it was unthreaded, I'm not sure why it would have blood on it, unless it happened to touch down at their bodies. If it was threaded on the rope, it may have been handled during the body recoveries, then came off the rope during the recoveries. Either way, it's probably irrelevant, as the sling failed and Ben was not clipped directly to a bolt hanger.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Arg. Not again.
Right. What happened? So none of us makes the same mistake.
Condolences to friends and families.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Oh criminy. That's a real bummer. Sorry to read this. Peace to the family and friends.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Too young... just way too young.
So sad.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Sad. climb/rest in peace.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I started installing rap chains on routes I tended to repeat a lot in Zion and Snow Canyon beginning in the 80s after crunching the numbers (at the third sling replacement the chain begins to pay for itself), but soon appreciated that there were ancillary safety benefits.
Today I often see young climbers who don't even CARRY replacement/rap slings. Some say they can always abandon draws, but I suspect that the financial incentive is such to cut corners possibly even trusting one anchor.
C'mon people, BE PREPARED and watch yer butts.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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not wanting to speculate at all, but it just seems screwy-
if they were at the ledge to do another climb they'd have at least had draws, what guy would lower a girl he was dating on a shitty sling, and not even bother to clip in direct? you don't have to put BOTH climbers at risk, even if you are unwilling to leave booty to get off the rock.
i admit that i sometimes take risks and whatnot (untie on a ledge, free-solo, run it out, simul-rap), but i NEVER put my wife at risk. honestly i think it even kinda bugs her, but why risk the single most important thing in your life? no way.
this story makes no sense to me at all.
the guy was young, but apparently experienced as heck- climbed since he was 5 or something.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Very sad, especially at such a young age.
I can remember lowering or rapping off things like a single stopper at age 14 or 15 or prevent leaving gear behind. I cringe at the thought now. I wish those two had some of that dumb luck that kept me from getting hurt.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Both 18. That is so painfully sad that I don't know what else to say...
My heartfelt condolences to the families and the friends.
May you find strength to get through this and eventually, peace.
-Tom
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May they rest in peace.
Lesson here is inspect bail slings if you're not leaving your own (better).
Also, clip into what's available around you, anchor yourself properly. If you ,the belay, fails...everybody goes down. This really never has to happen.
God bless 'em, this really sucks.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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This is awful.
I know the white webbing danger from doing lots of backcountry AZ climbing. It can be pretty deceptive if you don't know to look for it.
I think it's obvious that they could have set things up in a safer manner. I did some dumb a$$ stuff when I was an "experienced" 18-19 year old climber, so I won't pass judgment.
Rest in peace.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Was the busted sling a single sling [indicating an American Death Triangle] through the bolts, or were there two separate slings?
So sad, so sorry.
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Berk
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Condolences.....So sorry to hear this. Just brings up Rappel danger AGAIN..
If this was just a piece of webbing blowing out from the anchor as it seems, it makes it even worse. I don't know how many times I've finished a trad climb to find an old sun bleached, weathered sling around a tree/chockstone. Allways hits me in the stomach to think of parties rappeling off this with no second thoughts. In the day and age of bolts, anchor chains and spectra sewn slings being the norm, don't forget the simple things!
Extra tubular bail webbing (If you think ahead put a date on it)
The waterknot
Rappel ring or bail biner
And for christ sake bring a Knife and cut the trash slings that have been worked all season!
Whats the cost of a 3ft. sling compared to a life...
Sorry for the rant.........Condolences again if anyone knew these folks.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Berks list is nice, we add an 8mm quicklink. It's out of sight-out of mind on the rear rackloop or tagloop. It has been mighty helpful at times.
Condolences to the family and friends.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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What a sad thing to happen, and such a shock for their friends who were alerted to the scene by seeing their car parked beyond normal time.
I'm sorry for their friends and family during this time. It's a terrible loss.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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What a terribly sad accident. I've gotten pretty paranoid about deteriorated slings with hidden sections after encountering one around a tree in the Gunks that looked ok until you pushed some branches away and looked at a a portion out of sight behind the tree. I had reflexively clipped this sling with a tether before inspecting it. Fortunately, I didn't lean back on the tether. The shots below show what I found:
Portion of sling visible in front of tree anchor:
Portion of sling hidden behind tree
As far as I can tell, the extreme fraying on the back portion of the sling was caused just by the inevitable small sling motions against some very rough bark.
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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Condolences to family and friends. Sad news.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Too sad. My daughter is 18 and just starting to climb outdoors without her dad. Scary stuff although her friends seem to be safety minded.
Some of us old school guys still carry tied 1" web runners (about half my runners are tied) which means I got a bail sling for about one dollar vs an $8 dynamic sling. Makes is easy to be safe.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I chopped an anchor 2 weeks ago. decent looking newish looking webbing tied with a granny knott and tear marks in the back maby caused by a rodent or ice ax? Whipped out my knife and chopped it ASAP came back the next day and installed chains. 3/8th" logging chain or real ring anchors or metelious rap hangers Etc is the only way to go when equiping a bolt anchor.. Installing rings and slings on modern bolts is about as dumb as a garbage truck. The only time rings and slings are acceptable in the modern world is when a tree anchor or natural gear/pin anchor is the only option.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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rgold, I encountered a sling in similar condition at a rap station once -- the back side (behind
a tree) was shredded while the visible front side looked OK. My guess was that rodents had
gnawed on the back part. Another good reason to check the whole length of fixed slings.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I can shed tears for strangers still. My sincere condolances to the freinds and family. I'll keep these two in my thoughts.
Tom
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luggi
Trad climber
atwater california
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my sincerest condolences to family and friends of them both....
it is always difficult to hear of such an event...bless them and their families.
and for those that still ascend as Largo would say "Inspect anchors as if your life depends on them because it most assurdely does".
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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very sad news, more so because it is so avoidable.
Out on the "obscurity circuit" you pretty much know you're going to be replacing slings, those "white" slings are especially bad, but also obvious if you know what to look for. The first rule is really just to replace the slings, usually clear out the old tat and tie something in new.
This requires that you carry sling and rings with you. A lot of young climbers don't know about tied slings, they may never have had to tie a sling, may not know how. Unless someone is around to tell them about the exact danger that lead to these young ones' deaths, how would they know?
I am so sorry to hear that this happened. Be careful out there everyone.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Too sad.
Condolences to the family.
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Terrible news.. 18 years of age.
For the Family and friends of Ben & Laura, Our hearts go out to you in your time of sorrow.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there to clint and any family member...
my sincere and deep condolences... so many older folks here made it to there older years... i am very sad that these two never got that chance...
here is prayers and wishes that the family can get through the funeral somehow, by upholding each other in their special love and friendships...
and... may others not face this similar accident... thankfully to all that shared, all this will help others along the way, someday...
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daendil
Sport climber
Indianapolis, IN
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I knew Laura from our home gym Climb Time in Indy. I didn't know Ben personally but remember him from Miguel's. They were both beautiful young people. I hope that this serves to remind us climbers (experienced and inexperienced) how easily one bad decision can cost us our lives.
May they rest in peace. I know that both are dearly missed.
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ec
climber
ca
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Tragic and preventable.
Always have some new web with you.
rgold,
Those pics you posted are a good example of what happens to web that is not truely tubular (not to say that the real thing wouldn't wear similarly). However, that piece pictured appears to be the real stuff(?). Most web except true mil-spec tubular web is just flat web sewn into a tube. If the stitch is compromised, it merely 'explodes', new or old. Mil-spec (shuttle loom, 'bumpy') web normally won't blow-up. Blue Water tubular is a needle-loom flat web (smooth) uses a 'lock-stitch' to eliminate much of the mentioned problem. All others are suspect. The web in the pics is just plumb wore out from rubbing on the tree.
As far as weathering, it doesn't take much to degrade webbing. I retrieved an 'O.K.' looking piece of web once (it was bleached a little bit), however I could tear it in two like toilet paper. Seriously. I used to keep it at the shop I used to work at to scare the right mindset into those who would have used it.
 ec
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Incredibly sad. As the father of an 18 year old it makes my heart ache. Young climbers and an old anchor - clearly this was not a good combination.
Strange as it seems, I think it can be very difficult to explain that an anchor isn't necessarily an anchor just because it's an anchor. That the qualities that make fixed pro an 'anchor' at any given moment need to be re-evaluated each and every time one comes upon one. I fear this is not as common a perspective as it was for older generations of climbers.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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This makes one consider becoming annoyingly evangelical at the crags.
...And makes me think that the dude that hammered us for TRing Insomnia through one
biner/sling was not such a nosy freak.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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I just bought a new knife.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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So sad. Just babies.
Never trust webbing, unless it is yours.
RIP
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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That is a sad sad story.
Prod.
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jstan
climber
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Yes indeed. Very sad. Sufficiently sad as to cause one to speak to the facts.
With increasing regularity, of late, we see reports of accidents that should never have happened. Accidents we know how to prevent.
We are doing something wrong. WE.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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what i am struck by is a feeling that any and all arguments or considerations which seem to oppose the installation of a pair of BOMBER bolts AND fixed rap chains at EVERY ANCHOR or even EVERY BELAY, are somehow indefensible, regardless of their well intentioned preservationist or environmentalist orgins.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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"This makes one consider becoming annoyingly evangelical at the crags.
...And makes me think that the dude that hammered us for TRing Insomnia through one
biner/sling was not such a nosy freak. "
Offering un-sought advice is always an awkward decision. Last season I came across a couple belaying off a small ledge and clipped in with only one non-locking biner. I stopped and thought a minute then decided I had a responsibility to say something. I started with -"sorry to butt in, its not really my business but..."
The guy said he appreciated that I had said something - though I think it kind of killed his buzz in front of his girl friend. What ever. Its particularly hard to say something when the young dude is climbing 4 grades over your max. But they still often don't have any mountain sense and presume (as do all teens) that their guardian angles will keep all harm from them.
I also remember distinctly to this day some advice I got 30 years ago. We (young 20 somethings) were cragging outside of Telluride. Topped out and set up to rapel off a single fixed pin. We had rapped it before as evidently had many others. But an old grey hair from town happened to come by and scolded us. Something to the effect "people who rap off one pin will die soon". That one comment still sticks in my mind all these years later. Thanks Bill
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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This is a parent's nightmare. I am greatly saddened and disturbed.
Condolences to their families and friends.
Take care people...
AF
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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This seems extreme to me.
"what i am struck by is a feeling that any and all arguments or considerations which seem to oppose the installation of a pair of BOMBER bolts AND fixed rap chains at EVERY ANCHOR or even EVERY BELAY, are somehow indefensible, regardless of their well intentioned preservationist or environmentalist orgins."
What next? Bolted cracks? auto belays? I'd rather see mandatory reading of John Longs Proper Anchors. Too many people start climbing outside with out knowing sh#t about rigging. Bolted and chained belays would only dumb the masses down further.
Just my $.02
Prod.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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so sad, I can't imagine how their parents must feel
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jstan said: "With increasing regularity, of late, we see reports of accidents that should never have happened. Accidents we know how to prevent."
In part we can blame simply larger numbers of climbers. More climbers, plus the same accident rate would automatically equal increased accidents.
However I tend to agree with the mob mentallity of "WTF?".
Bail webbing should be on everyones rack. Bailing off bleach white webbing (which surely felt dry and crunchy) is just begging for the darwin award.
I'm also confused by the lowering aspect of this. Was there only one ATC between the two? Why lower through the rap ring? That alone nearly doubles the force on the anchor versus a single person rapping on a doubled rope (the argument commonly given for not sumul-rapping).
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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very, very sad.
from the reports so far it seem that he could also have been belaying her on lead off the sling--through a biner clipped to the sling or just off his harness, while he was anchored to the sling. a high factor fall if so.
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jstan
climber
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Whether something is the cause of an individual accident one of course, can never really know. But an observation.
Even forty years ago when you first got on a climb with an expert person there was the chance the student could come to believe "everything was taken care of" and that we were not involved in an activity where you had, constantly, to "try and increase your odds." Forty years ago the experts repeatedly delivered the message that when you are hanging on a rock, everything can never really be "taken care of".
Today people are coming to climbing by many different avenues, some just by seeing it on TV or in a movie. In most of those avenues it at least appears that there really are not any unknowns and lots of shiny gear that appears absurdly strong. Disturbingly, this presentation is calculated. It is not accidental. There is not an ever present message that even should your head not fall down and break on a rock, the rock may fall down onto your head - you never know.
People are out there with no concept of the importance of, or even the existence of redundancy. And no idea that when several people are rappelling, the odds can be shifted by using backups for all but the last one to rappel.
It really is disturbing when, in order to make climbing appear saleable, we don't always have the message "Be aware. This can get really sketchy."
We do of course have the message "If you have read this, by law you can't sue me." Since that is everywhere, we of course do not believe it.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Prod-
I agree entirely with your comments.
It's just that "dumbing down the masses", and "bringing the rock down to the lowest common denominator", and all the other ways to phrase it somehow ring a bit hollow when I start to picture dead kids, the destroyed lives of the parents of dead kids, grieving friends of dead kids...
I'm sure you get the point.
Truth is, with the exponential grown of climbing as a recreational activity for young people, this probably won't have to happen too many more times before political pressure emerges to somehow make outdoor climbing areas "safe". Food for thought.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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After the past thirty years, the discussion almost becomes one of "infrastructure", what anchors 'mean', and what mindset of responsibility we indivually and collectively carry with us. I think it's easy for younger generations to mistakenly assume - because they're so important - that some 'authority' insures, or has insured, anchors are 'safe' simply by the fact they are there.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Edit: its best not to make assinine assumptions at this time...
RIP and condolences to friends and family
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I wasn't...
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jstan
climber
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The "shit happens-- condolences" was pretty bad. Thankfully it has disappeared.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Dissappeared? You just posted it?!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Its not assinine.
I've seen young climbers trusting a single anchor, and when I said something I was assured by them that the anchors are entirely trustworthy because they are placed by the rangers (!!!!!!?).
(I decided not to tell them that actually the person who placed the anchor was the same one that was telling them not to trust it,....)
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"What next? Bolted cracks? auto belays? I'd rather see mandatory reading of John Longs Proper Anchors. Too many people start climbing outside with out knowing sh#t about rigging. Bolted and chained belays would only dumb the masses down further."
"I think it's easy for younger generations to mistakenly assume - because they're so important - that some 'authority' insures, or has insured, anchors are 'safe' simply by the fact they are there."
As a young (just turned 20) climber, I'm inclined to agree. Part of it has to do with many climbers, young and old, being raised in a gym rather than outdoors, and part of it has to do with young people feeling a bit immortal in general.
That said, Ben doesn't sound like he was inexperienced. Maybe he always clipped the anchor and just missed it this time. Who hasn't done that?
Can't imagine how the others at Miguel's feel.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"Maybe he always clipped the anchor and just missed it this time. Who hasn't done that? "
In 15 years I haven't. There are certain things that you just shouldn't be missing. This is one of them.
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Binks
Social climber
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Terrible tragedy. I'm super paranoid about this kind of thing. I've left entire cordolets, slings, extra biners etc when I probably never needed to on many anchors where the webbing seemed old... I feel less bad about it when I hear a story like this.
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jstan
climber
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Speaking of those awful moments when facing the need to intrude upon others.
In the Gunks I once topped out on a climb right where a family was standing. Two kids were spray painting graffiti on the rock as the father, who was looking out into the valley said, "What do you mean crowded? Look at all the land that can be developed!"
You all will think I am kidding. The family may have picked up the scene from the New Yorker, about that I can't hazard a guess. But it happened.
You folks may have come upon the only way to cut these deaths down. You have to intrude, nicely. Damned if I know how to intrude nicely. But you all are better than I was.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"In 15 years I haven't. There are certain things that you just shouldn't be missing. This is one of them."
Well then you are Christ Himself walking among us.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Very sad, my condolences.
It would seem that nowadays many climbers do not understand the time honored ideal that gear is cheap, webbing and a good knot is particularly cheap and leaving some to save yourself is ok.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"It would seem that nowadays many climbers do not understand the time honored ideal that gear is cheap, webbing and a good knot is particularly cheap and leaving some to save yourself is ok."
I don't think younger generations of climbers have any particular problem with leaving gear or webbing but rather with recognizing there might be a need to do so.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"Well then you are Christ Himself walking among us. "
No, I'm just not an idiot. Not clipping directly into the anchor is one of the things that should not just casualy happen.
I'm incredibly paranoid about anchors. Always have been, always will be.
Nuff said.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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"Maybe he always clipped the anchor and just missed it this time. Who hasn't done that? "
Ummm... I haven't either. I'm pretty sure that the people I climb with haven't done this either. Certainly not when they've climbed with me. Maybe I'm Christ too? Or... Maybe securing myself to the anchor is the first thing I do whenever I reach/build one.... Just sayin'.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"Ummm... I haven't either. I'm pretty sure that the people I climb with haven't done this either. Certainly not when they've climbed with me. Maybe I'm Christ too? Or... Maybe securing myself to the anchor is the first thing I do whenever I reach/build one.... Just sayin'."
I mean, I'm pretty safe, but are you seriously telling me you've locked your locking biner every time? Do you use two slings for extra redundancy every time? Never forgot your helmet on the ground? Never not rapelled with a prusik? Never placed a piece that fell out when you climbed above it? Not even once? Never placed a piece a LITTLE bit outside the margin of error for a ledge fall?
I'm anal, to be sure, but human error is just that: human. If you don't think you've ever made a mistake, maybe you just didn't notice.
I haven't been to that spot in the Red about a year, but I seem to remember it being a very, very big ledge, possibly as large as some of the potential belays on After Six. The ledge is where the tree's growing from in this photo, a bit hard to put it together: http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/265241-largest_7002.jpg
I'm just giving a climber with 13 years of experience the credit he deserves.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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i'm not here to beat anyone up, but-
no, i have never "missed" that either.
yes i have forgotten to lock a locking biner, other things of that magnitude, sure.
you simply cannot make any comparison to not clipping in directly.
those are not the same, not in any way, shape, or form.
if in fact the descriptions are accurate and one climber was lowering the other off of tat, while not in direct himself, even though they had bolts to clip and gear to clip with, that is so mind-boggling that i have to question it. in fact i suspect that it's somehow inaccurate. who would do that? no way...
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"if in fact the descriptions are accurate and one climber was lowering the other off of tat, while not in direct himself, even though they had bolts to clip and gear to clip with, that is so mind-boggling that i have to question it. in fact i suspect that it's somehow inaccurate. who would do that? no way..."
In truth, yeah, I've never missed that identical clip-in, but all the stuff I listed can go very very bad in a freak accident.
I guess I just want to give context. If it's the ledge I'm thinking of, it's like belaying from the ground. A close comparison is the top of the first pitch of Super Slab. I've witnessed many parties belay from it without placing pro for the belayer
...but then, there's little chance of rolling back like there is, say, at the base of Catchy (where a leader fall at the start is potentially bad for both people involved).
We won't know. Just stuff to think about...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Missing a finishing off a locking biner is one thing. Missing the point of having a redundant anchor is entirely another.
I'm at a loss to even remotely understand your insistance on this issue.
Face it, if you continue climbing with this attitude, we could well be reading your obituary at some point.
I'm not trying to be mean and nasty here. Maybe you really need to think your approach to climbing through again.
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goatboywonder
Trad climber
Iowa City, IA
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Wow, this is sad. It is always especially bad when you know the area where it happened. I climbed Whiteout with my wife and a buddy about a year ago. Don't remember much about the climb. It sounds like they traversed over to another route as listed in the description here:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuide/show_route.php?id=2050
Note it calls for "hand size pieces for the belay".
Super sad.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I have rappelled of tattered slings and single rusted bolts.'
Sorry to the families, but accidents happen in the world of the vertical.
Juan
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jstan
climber
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There it is again.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Rlf:
Yeah, I see where I've been thinking too much now and not reading enough. When I suggested you were a bit too perfect, I was responding to me thinking you said you never made mistakes, not never made [this particular mistake].
I guess I'm just trying to make sense of it. I've been on that route, and besides that, the Red's where I go to climb outside when I get the chance. I never spent much time with Ben or Laura but will definitely notice Ben's absence when I'm there now.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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What Matt said. Period.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I've often clipped just the slings on an anchor, when:
they are around a big tree
they go through a tunnel in the rock
they are through bolts, but there are too many slings, so the hangers are blocked from me clipping into them directly
(if a couple of slings are good, this is fine; if all are crusty I remove some with my knife until I can clip a hanger and later insert my own sling)
Clipping just the slings on bolts (if some are good) is OK for rappelling; not OK for belaying.
Clipping just the sling would minimize extension if one of the bolts failed, assuming you do not have a separate sling to clip both bolts. This also assumes the sling is good.
Clipping just the sling is weaker than clipping a bolt, since the webbing can be cut over a narrow hanger. This should only matter for a big load like a leader fall or factor 2 fall, or if the sling is quite weak it would matter a lot.
Usually when I rappel, there is no lowering. If I'm much more experienced than my partner I rappel first and set up the next anchor. Then my partner follows. This has the disadvantage of not being able to check their rappel setup unless you are concerned enough that you have them put their rappel device on the rope above yours before you head down.
I test the slings by jerking on them, if they look crusty. But as Rich pointed out, it's also important to check around the back of the tree, chockstone, or tunnel.
It's good to place backup gear, if you can't immediately inspect the entire path of the slings.
When it's a single sling through two bolts, it should be possible to clip the hangers directly. If your biner noses are too big to fit into the hangers, you may be able to thread a sling into the hanger.
If you don't clip a hanger or chain link directly, and there is a single sling or single chain, you don't have redundancy, as we know. Just like the triple fatality on the Nose in the early 70s, when they clipped over the chain instead of into a link, and one of the hangers broke. Todd Skinner died when a nonredundant (and perhaps difficult-to-inspect) part of his harness failed.
All of us know this stuff, and I expect Ben did too. (Hopefully Laura did too, but it sounds like Ben was more experienced, so that would normally make him responsible for checking things). The main thing is to stay alert and use a redundant clip in, or at least test the anchor while still on rappel, if you have no way to make it redundant.
I would like to see the remainder of the sling tested.
There are other potential scenarios for the accident - it would help to know how much rope was between them, and what if any gear was clipped onto the rope. Also, did Laura have a daisy chain (or similar personal anchor) with a biner clipped to her harness (as if she is being lowered), or is the biner free (as if she was anchored at the sling). Similarly, did Ben have an anchor sling deployed, or clipped to his harness? Who had the rack of gear?
What would explain why they didn't land in the same spot? I don't know the cliff geometry [edit: see below], so I can't answer this or even guess well.
Here is some route info, from redriverclimbing.com:
-------
7a. The Man Behind the Curtain 5.11a (Trad)
Begin by climbing Whiteout but finish to the tree ledge out right instead of at the anchors out left. From the big tree on the
ledge, rap halfway down the wall to a small ledge. Crawl around the arete and end up at a small belay stance below this
extremely steep, featureless, acute dihedral. Climb the crack to chain anchors. Hand sized pieces for the belay, fingers for the
crack
FA: Kris Hampton 2006
Trad gear, 40 feet, Chains, Moves: Fingers
8. Whiteout 5.8 *** (Trad)
This route is located about 100 feet left of Friable near the main arete of the wall where No Place Like Home begins. Climb up
easy ground via a left-facing flake and belay. Continue up the handcrack in a dihedral and move left onto the face when the
crack fades out.
FA: John Bronaugh, Ron Snider 1984
Trad gear, 100 feet, Rap anchors-60m rope required
-------
Here is the geometry of the cliff, drawn by Domingo; I added the labels:
Here is one possible alternative scenario:
1. They start at the anchor tree (A) at the top right of Whiteout (100' above the ground).
2. Ben lowers Laura to the sling anchor (B) below Man Behind the Curtain, 40' below him. She clips into the sling, instead of a bolt hanger. Maybe she just has a single daisy chain for clipping in. (This is very common, but it's best to have a second sling or clip in with the rope to make it redundant unless you are doing a long rappel route and need to save time).
3. [complete guess:] Ben unclips from the tree at 100' and falls off, somewhere in the process of setting up a rappel there.
He falls 80' until the rope comes tight and his belay device catches, which puts a factor 2 fall onto the sling, and it fails, pulling Laura down.
In this scenario, since Ben falls farther than Laura, he bounces more at the base and ends up further down the hill at the base.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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(randy, i have to admit, i like the sound of that... =)
domingo-
it sounds to me like you are just trying to cut the poor kid some slack, no harm done in that effort.
rlf-
it may not be fair to assume she is unsafe, simply because she can see how another would miss something. not being critical of others and being unsafe in one's one practices are not the same thing.
let us all recommit ourselves to our own safe practices, our double-checks of ourselves and our partners and the safety systems upon which we rely, our back-ups and redundancies, and our consciously taking the time to stop and look at our stuff, and think about what we are doing- and let's all encourage our partners and friends to do the same.
after all, i can only think of one thing worse than hearing a terrible story about the tragic and avoidable passing of a climber i don't know...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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No problems Domingo. Believe me, I've made plenty of mistakes, and I was damn lucky I survived some of them.
Mistakes happen, we all make them from time to time. But when it comes to anchors, I'm just such a sissy that I won't let my mind wander.
The other thing to note here is that if you (meaning anyone) screws up at the anchor, the whole team is in peril or worse.
Like what happened here.
Take care. Sorry if my tone is harsh, I really am that way in person. I speak my mind.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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My sincere condolences to the family. The following is more analysis and may be disturbing to friends and family.
Dario wrote:
"They must have put the rope through the rap ring and started lowering Laura. The webbing broke, pulling Ben with her. There was no gear on the anchors, so we think he went in direct to the sling that he was lowering her with."
Forgive me if this point was made already, but this sounds like a case of having all the eggs in one basket. Dario's observation above suggests that Ben was clipped into the sling that he was lowering Laura on, and which failed. He was not clipped in directly to either of the two bolts through which the worn sling was threaded. Had he clipped directly into both bolts, it likely would not have been a fatal accident unless both bolts failed. So, yes, replace the tat, but always clip in directly to the anchor bolts.
P.S. And under Clint's alternative theory, Laura did not clip into the bolts either. My point is just that even if you have a knife and new sling with you, clip the bolts.
However, I have seen old hangers so crammed full of ancient, petrified slingage that you can't push a biner through the hanger without first cutting the tat away.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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clint (nancy drew?)-
i was pondering something like that as well.
i forget the specifics now, but it sounded as if they had very little (i.e. nothing) clipped and lots of rope between them, plus she was tied in and yet she'd only been climbing a few years, and he was belaying (or lowering?), while he was the more experienced, and they were going to climb a 5.11 on gear...
it doesn't add up as a failure while rapping to the ground-
doesn't add up as a failure while she was on lead-
maybe there is some sense in your little theory?
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Could it have been that they both made the ledge, made a belay by clipping the sling, then she set off to lead the pitch and fell prior to placing any gear, he catches the fall which also pulls him off the ledge?
Prod.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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prod-
yes possibly, but they could have made far fewer mistakes under clint's design, and the length of rope between then would make more sense (but perhaps that could have slid a bit)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Prod,
Yes, Laura leading is also possible; I suspect since Dario did not mention this as a possibility, probably because she did not have the cams on her harness (I'm guessing on that).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Are there a lot of slings aroung bolt hangers at anchors that I don't know about? This seems like a totally bad idea, the hangers' inside edges are gonna bite into sling in a mean fashion. I'd do it once or twice on the same sling but older sh#t rigged through hangers...that ain't right, use some old ovals or something.
Is this common practice, most of the sh#t I run into is around trees or slung over something, not through a hanger!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Blue: note that Shannon (head of RRGCC) said that slings like that are usually 10-15 years old. I know of several slings around Yosemite like this. None of them are what I'd call safe.
Edit: I'm not the best artist and it's not an extremely accurate drawing. It's just to give people some idea.
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WBraun
climber
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You know of several slings around Yosemite like this.
You do? Where?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Roger and I and others cleaned off many old belay slings in Yosemite the past two summers while rebolting at Glacier Point, Arches Terrace, and Middle Cathedral North Face Apron. Even the really faded ones usually still hold body weight. Very few can be ripped apart by hand, unless they are so bad that they are already partly torn apart, like in Rich's photo upthread. The only time I have been able to rip apart slings by hand which looked like they might hold was at Hetch Hetchy, where they get extremely high UV exposure.
But I think Werner may be using some sarcasm here? :-)
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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One example: Climb the first pitch of Super Slab and rappel about 30 feet down the tree slings. About 20-40 feet around the cliff left of the 5.8 offwidth (Trial By Fire?), you'll see two bolts with several faded slings that have almost no color slung on two bolts. I was unhappy to find it one evening when we got off the route really late. Edit: A carabiner could not be clipped through the bolts, because there were so many pieces of 1" webbing.
There's one on Parkline too, at the top of one a sport climb that still has quarter inch bolts. I also recall seeing some on Glacier Point Apron in 2007.
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WBraun
climber
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So ....
In the old daze, people had hammers and could smash the slings in half.
Now-a-days you have to carry a big ass hairy knife to cut the tat.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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"A carabiner could not be clipped through the bolts, because there were so many pieces of 1" webbing. "
So chop the tat and either use a new sling or sacrifice 2 ovals or whatever.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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really sad.
personally, i was fortunate to have lived thru my first year or two of technical climbing, quite aside from the standard alpine hazards.
lots of folks have gotten away with sketch. that includes almost everyone who posts here, and many of our heroes. (read the sacherer thread. i could include tons of examples from folks we all admire, but don't see the point, here.)
we've gone thru three generations since the 1970s. in the first, fixed nylon was a novelty. in the second, fixed nylon was a time bomb. in the third, fixed nylon had become, again, a novelty.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Grim Reaper is always just waiting in the wings.
I figure I have used up about 5 of my nine lives.
Juan
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crazyfingers
climber
CA
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No hairy knife, just a razor blade with a fold of cardboard over the edge and a little duct tape
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ec
climber
ca
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cc, strange that you mentioned the sling from HH, the sling I mentioned in my earlier post was from Wampama in HH.
ec
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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ec,
The bad/rippable sling at HH was on Wapama, too. Top of p2 of Wapama Mama, 10/2001. There is just an insane amount of UV exposure (and heat) there, because you get it direct and also on reflection from the reservoir. It's why we named our route on Wapama "Photomultiplier".
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Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
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I was at the site of the accident today for a memorial service. And though I just took a quick look, I think it will be very difficult to know what the exact details are, as there are a few routes / anchors / possibilities, and all seem possible. The only thing that is for sure is that they were either climbing/belaying totally unanchored, or that they experienced a total anchor failure. The bolted anchor in question is actually to the right of the 11a route about 20 feet, on the other side of it from white out. There is no established route there, it may be from an early attempt to reach the 11a crack, or just an intermediate rap station from the top of the cliff.
This is what I wrote on a thread at redriverclimbing:
"I know there are always lot of questions, but in the end, maybe the exact answers are not so important, all that really matters is something went wrong, and the consequences are severe. And that, to me, is the lessen to take away from any accident."
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jstan
climber
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That statement almost always found at the bottom of the page?
Needs to appear at the top and at every half page as you go down.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Wes,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.
To be honest, I think the reason I speculated about an alternative cause (vs. the "lowering accident" suggested by Dario), is that "I wanted to believe" they were being careful about risks. So I guessed a story that made me feel slightly better than having both of them clipped into a bad sling.
I agree with your perspective - something went wrong, and they didn't have a proper anchor or system to prevent tragedy.
Ben and Laura's deaths will be hard on many people. I was badly injured in a climbing accident at age 21, and I didn't realize until then how my parents felt partly responsible for my risk taking.
I adapted a bit after that "close call"; hopefully I am better at dealing with risks now, although not all factors can be controlled.
It's sad that for some people their first accident is fatal and they don't get a second chance to reconsider their risks.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Nov 14, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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Someone posted up at the begining: keep your opinions to yourself. I am not making any criticisms of these climbers or any comments on this particular case.
Regarding all climbing: Mother Nature is not always a nice teacher, because sometimes she starts with the Final Exam. Many of us were more lucky than smart.
CC: Thanks for posting such a reasonable analysis (your posts are uniformly done with reason and without flame).
I think we all hate raps because so much depends on so little. I remember being taught when I started some 39 years ago: always back up the rapel point with another bomber anchor, test the first anchor in some fashion (bounce, heavier person rap first, etc) without any load-sharing on the backup. Let all the party rap except one, then once you have some faith in the bolt/sling/etc, remove the backup gear and the final person rap. Still no proof that the anchor is good, but at least it is tested. We used to do this even for bolts, as bolts can be bad but you can't tell by just looking.
And don't bounce when you go down!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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One thing I've done a lot in the past that most of my partners were probably not even aware of.
I made a bomber anchor for them, with gear backing up the sketchy raps. Then when they are safely at the bottom I take out all the backups and launch.
That means only the last person will have to lay it on the line ....
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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I made a bomber anchor for them, with gear backing up the sketchy raps. Then when they are safely at the bottom I take out all the backups and launch.
and have the heaviest guy go first.
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Sumo
Trad climber
Pleasanton, CA
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Nov 15, 2008 - 08:44am PT
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Dammit, this totally blows. My deepest condolences to the families and climbing communities affected by this tragedy.
Everyone please be careful out there.
- Sumo
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MedDeviceEngineer
Trad climber
Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 11:16am PT
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Years ago I pulled webbing from all over Yosemite and took it back to
the materials test lab that I ran at school. I tied the webbing in slings
with a water knot and then puled it to failure.
I built a fixture that had the same radius of curvature as a carabiner at
both ends.
I don't remember the high tensile strength values but I do remember the
low's. On some webbing that looked relatively good the failure loads were
as low as 300 lbs.
At that point I stared carrying lots of extra webbing an replacing all the
old slings I found.
Marc
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rocksnwaves
Trad climber
CO
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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I seem to recall some lab testing that revealed a nylon webbing exposed to the sun's UV rays for as little as a week, will result in as much as a 50% reduction in strength (although some other reports say 12 months).
Most importantly: Degradation can take place without visible indications.
[Also, I was taught by an AMGA certified instructor that an overhand knot is actually stronger than a water not for tying webbing into a sling (leave at least a 1" tail).
Overhand knot with a long (6-12") tail (backup not on one end for extra safety) is preferred and stronger than a figure 8, (and easier to remove) for joining 2 ropes for a long rap.]
Correct me if you think this is wrong, but I'm pretty certain of both of these.
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trdrckclmbr
climber
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Nov 15, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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Thanks to those who have posted their thoughts, theories and analysis of this tragedy. I hope we can become better and safer climbers from it.
Regardless of experience, it is important to always remember and review the basics of the sport we all love.
My prayers reach out to the friends and family of Laura and Ben.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 15, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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Calling 18 year olds with mostly indoor experience "idiots" is way too self-congratulatory and serves no constructive purpose at all. Stroke your ego, but you're probably the type of guy who WOULD take umbrage to any advice offered by others in a similar situation.
The fact that we are alive does not mean we have always done everything correctly - it only means that we have NOT done some particular thing wrong, at a critical point in a climb.
the fact that 100's of climbers have lived after rappelling from a "death triangle" does not make it safe.
the fact that I survived a rappel from a single 1/2" square troll nut tapped into a shallow groove in a snow-choked gulley in the middle of the night, in a blizzard, does not recommend that as a standard technique.
Circumstances of this accident are suggestive, but a bit reminiscent of the late Tom Dunwoodie's team fatality several years ago on the DNB. He was a very seasoned veteran, yet some sort of anchor failure which appeared to be belay-related took 2 lives. One scenario suggested the leader fell directly onto the belay, with no intermediate pro, generating a factor 2 fall. Todd Skinner's accident may also have involved such a shock-loading possibility. If these two were belaying off the sling(the report said the rope was not threaded thru the rap ring found) and one fell off the ledge with even a foot of slack, the shock could blow out a new sling, much less an old marginal one. These all share a common feature - counter-intuitive, in that "I only fell 3 feet", etc. We climbers appear to have trouble accepting that physics will always win, and our intuition is not always right.
After watching a film recently about the Huber brother's (at the time) UNsuccessful attempt to set a new speed record on the Nose, I realized that the tactics used are TOTALLY outside the realm of the safety norm, and if I were to try such an ascent, even if I moved as quickly as they, my time would be at least 15 minutes longer, just in adding the extra 30 seconds I'd be taking to open and close a second, locking carabiner at every belay where they trusted 1 wiregate.
One unintended consequence of the "X-Games" attitude infecting our sport, is the way such examples are absorbed by the impressionable newcomers. Without a history of personal experiences or sad-but-true tragedies, or old-school geezers to guide them, such unfortunate, perhaps avoidable accidents are going to be repeated.
The only moral I guess is, learn from others mistakes, share our own, be careful out there, watch out for one another (including your trusted partners), and take nothing for granted.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 15, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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One unintended consequence of the "X-Games" attitude infecting our sport, is the way such examples are absorbed by the impressionable newcomers. Without a history of personal experiences or sad-but-true tragedies, or old-school geezers to guide them, such unfortunate, perhaps avoidable accidents are going to be repeated.
well said. Be careful out there!
Let the climbers rest in peace, God bless 'em.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 15, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Like everyone else who has posted, my sympathies go out to the friends and families of the two who fell.
Many have pointed out the need to carry slings, rings, and a knife. One thing I have found useful, and which has saved my ass more than once, is to make sure any chalkbag I buy has a zippered pocket in the back. I think the original idea was that it would be for keys, but two rap rings and a small knife live in mine. That means I never -- ever -- have to think about it. They're automatically with me every time I climb outdoors.
Can't put a bunch of slings in there, of course, but I generally have a cordalette on my harness...
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RRGMRT
Trad climber
KY
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Nov 15, 2008 - 07:37pm PT
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An update on the Strohmeier/Fletcher accident investigation:
Because this accident occurred on USFS land in Wolfe County, KY, the incident is being investigated by USFS Law Enforcement. As this accident location is my responsibility for the RRGMRT, I was asked to participate in the investigation to help determine the exact cause of the accident. Last Tuesday, an investigative group, headed up by USFS Chief Investigator Kenneth Scarberry, that included three experienced trad climbers, spent several hours studying Coroner's photos of the scene and inspecting the climbers' gear, and we were able to arrive at a unanamous conclusion as to the cause.
I finished the group's accident analysis report and submitted it to Officer Scarberry, on Friday, November 15, 2008. Because this is an ongoing investigation, no details will be released at this time. It will be several weeks before the final report will be made public.
It is important to note that speculation on this and other internet forums as to how the accident occurred is inaccurate!
I will post a synopsis of the final report here as soon as USFS releases it.
Rick Weber
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climbsmart
Trad climber
Gunks
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Nov 17, 2008 - 07:48pm PT
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Wow. Sorry to hear that. Very tragic.
Beyond that, something doesn't sound right. What experienced climber doesn't tie in while belaying, or add a back-up sling/webbing to the anchor, and how would the ring get off the rope? Plus, even with no other gear available, why wouldn't he tie in with a bite of the rope?
ALWAYS triple-check your rap anchors! Many more climbers die from rapping than climbing. I've heard many tragic stories in my neck of the woods (The Gunks).
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jcques
Trad climber
quebec canada
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:17am PT
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"I know there are always lot of questions, but in the end, maybe the exact answers are not so important, all that really matters is something went wrong, and the consequences are severe."
I think that what really matters is: "how can we know when something will go wrong? Solo climber climb to the top and rope teams are unsafe. There is no rules, no bolt, no... that can prevent most accident. We all tie off safely from a belay to rap or to coil a rope. Tying off is not prescribe, but, if you save half an hour for a manipulation, you can be on the ground before the thonderstorm arrive.
To have a subjective accident, I believe that three condition most exist: we must have climbers, a wrong moment and a mistake. In this case, the three conditions exist, whatever it is. The exact answer is not important; the reminder is. Remind to always back up any sling or bolt that is not yours, to put a pro close to the belay and try to stay as close as possible from a fall factor of 0.5, rap one at a time and, if possible, walk down, etc.
I think that some people can anticipate wrong moment. They feel that something is going wrong without knowing exactly what. They estimate the gravity of the fall before making a move and are rarely in bad situation. When those climber are in a wrong moment, they don't follow a set of procedure. They decide which procedure can be apply at that exact moment. A climber who learn a technique which is good 60% of the time have 40% of chance of making a mistake. A climber who know two, three or four techniques can make a good choice in more situation and are less subject to accident.
when I think at that tragedy, I just can hope that one day the story save my life or the life of other climber. On a belay station, in a hurry to go to take a good cold beers, I will take time to evaluate the situation, choose a technique and make the move. Personally, I don't think that I have enought experience to avoid all danger.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 18, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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I'm very sorry to hear of such tragedy.
> I seem to recall some lab testing that revealed a nylon
> webbing exposed to the sun's UV rays for as little as a week,
> will result in as much as a 50% reduction in strength
> (although some other reports say 12 months).
>
> Most importantly: Degradation can take place without visible indications.
This is contrary testing and information I've seen. The UIAA even
suggested that for the most part, loss of color was the main problem
with UV, not strength; but they have other information, too.
For one thing, UV exposure varies w/location. But, in most any
case, no way will that 50%-in-a-week come outside of some lab with
a super-cooking UV emitter.
And, if the tape's colored, it will show effects; even white, it
should FEEL stiff. (And then, though much less so than w/rope,
there is the aspect that the rate of degradation will lessen,
once exterior fibres are cooked, interior ones holding on.)
Both Tom Moyer (www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/ )
and BD's Kolin Powick (if not also Sterling_Jim/Wootles)
have tested harvested old gear; I recall Tom's results being both
surprising on some sling that looked like hell (being strong) and
one that didn't look so bad (being rather weak--maybe a rope-burn
part that he overlooked!?). Kolin's testing I think will be
accessible by scrolling from this link, which is to his testing
of nylon & HMPE slings tied together:
http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php#current
> [Also, I was taught by an AMGA certified instructor that an
> overhand knot is actually stronger than a water not
I presume by "overhand knot" you mean an offset water knot;
and your "not" is right--it's NOT the case: quite the contrary.
> for tying webbing into a sling (leave at least a 1" tail).
> Overhand knot with a long (6-12") tail (backup not on one end
> for extra safety) is preferred and stronger than a figure 8,
> (and easier to remove) for joining 2 ropes for a long rap.]
> Correct me if you think this is wrong, but I'm pretty certain...
Be certain that you're wrong on both of those. You have slipped
into abseil-rope-joining knots, where the Offset Ring Bend (or
O.Overhand Bend or O.Water knot) has favor; but it's not for
strength, as many knots are stronger (but strength is hardly
needed), but for ease of (un)tying and flow over a surface and
compactness.
Below I attach something clipped from e-chatter at another time.
*kN*
------------ CLIP
Not too long ago I used my low-tech dynamometer to test EDK'd 1" slings to destruction:
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1503079;#1503079
[ Dec 16, 2006] Today I tested 1" tubular webbing with edk [OOB ORB] vs water knot, two specimens each.
The edk tore at the knot at 16.4 kn and 16.9 kn.
The water knotted sling broke both times right at 23 kn.
Both times it broke away from the knot, at the place where it was looped
around quicklink that secured it to the test chassis.\
[NB: THIS SHOWS A SEVERE WEAKENING BY THE TIGHT U-TURN OF THE
METAL, VS. THE BROADER TURN IN A 'BINER; ELSEWHERE, TESTING OF
OFFSET-RING-BENT SLINGS PRODUCES BREAKS IN THE KNOT (E.G., THAT
DONE RECENTLY BY ARIC DATESMAN ON THE ORB AND MY SYMMETRIC VARIATION
OF THE ORB). .:. SO THESE FIGURES ARE LOWER.]
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the lurkist
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Nov 18, 2008 - 11:38am PT
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There is an ongoing debate about fixed gear in the Red on redriverclimbing.com. This discussion was initially started out of this tragedy, but has predictably morphed into redpoint vs pinkpoint debate. Obviously sport climbing style has no bearing on this issue. What does is the culture of sport climbing that I am concerned is carried over into consideration and risk assessment of other gear on trad/ mixed routes.
I think the question, whether pragmatic or utilitarian or not, is whether the standard practice of having entire crags fixed with draws all in various degrees of degradation, as is very normalized at the Red, is teaching the younger generation bad habits.
As I reflected on this tragedy with a friend who spent years climbing in the Valley in the eighties, he pointed out that tragedies occurred there, too, and people took home the message paid for in blood by the unfortunates. While I know many on this bbs climb on bigger more committing stone than the Red offers and perhaps have not lost these lessons learned, we here in the Red, I think, have.
Perhaps the culture is here to stay due to the convenience of fixed draws at the Lode, et al..., but I think as we reflect on this accident, and out of respect to these kids who died too young and especially to their moms and dads, we as responsible citizens have to at least consider that mechanisms now accepted as normal played a part in their choices.
And if this is the case, could these mechanisms be changed to engineer into the normalized culture a fear/mistrust of this fixed gear.
I would particularly value the input of this crowd as the old crusty crew of the sport who have been there and seen that.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Nov 19, 2008 - 06:25pm PT
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Earlier, Clint quoted:
The webbing was completely white. Where the webbing was against the bolt there was a faint color of its original color, dark purple.
A couple years ago I pull-tested some faded-white 1" tubular webbing I bootied off of the Caverns at FOB. One loop failed at 7.2 kN, the other at 8.6 kN:
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp%2D24/update_8_april_07.htm
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Nov 19, 2008 - 06:40pm PT
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[Also, I was taught by an AMGA certified instructor that an overhand knot is actually stronger than a water not for tying webbing into a sling (leave at least a 1" tail).
I've actually done that test, and found exactly the opposite. In the rc.com post cited above by knudenoggin, I posted that the edk tore through at around 16.5 kN, while the ring bend held to 23kN. That's almost a 30% loss in strength for the EDK.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
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AMGA certified instructor
Just see ....
The rubber stamped official eats crow.
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