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Sumo
Trad climber
Pleasanton, CA
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Nov 15, 2008 - 08:44am PT
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Dammit, this totally blows. My deepest condolences to the families and climbing communities affected by this tragedy.
Everyone please be careful out there.
- Sumo
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MedDeviceEngineer
Trad climber
Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 11:16am PT
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Years ago I pulled webbing from all over Yosemite and took it back to
the materials test lab that I ran at school. I tied the webbing in slings
with a water knot and then puled it to failure.
I built a fixture that had the same radius of curvature as a carabiner at
both ends.
I don't remember the high tensile strength values but I do remember the
low's. On some webbing that looked relatively good the failure loads were
as low as 300 lbs.
At that point I stared carrying lots of extra webbing an replacing all the
old slings I found.
Marc
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rocksnwaves
Trad climber
CO
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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I seem to recall some lab testing that revealed a nylon webbing exposed to the sun's UV rays for as little as a week, will result in as much as a 50% reduction in strength (although some other reports say 12 months).
Most importantly: Degradation can take place without visible indications.
[Also, I was taught by an AMGA certified instructor that an overhand knot is actually stronger than a water not for tying webbing into a sling (leave at least a 1" tail).
Overhand knot with a long (6-12") tail (backup not on one end for extra safety) is preferred and stronger than a figure 8, (and easier to remove) for joining 2 ropes for a long rap.]
Correct me if you think this is wrong, but I'm pretty certain of both of these.
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trdrckclmbr
climber
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Nov 15, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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Thanks to those who have posted their thoughts, theories and analysis of this tragedy. I hope we can become better and safer climbers from it.
Regardless of experience, it is important to always remember and review the basics of the sport we all love.
My prayers reach out to the friends and family of Laura and Ben.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 15, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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Calling 18 year olds with mostly indoor experience "idiots" is way too self-congratulatory and serves no constructive purpose at all. Stroke your ego, but you're probably the type of guy who WOULD take umbrage to any advice offered by others in a similar situation.
The fact that we are alive does not mean we have always done everything correctly - it only means that we have NOT done some particular thing wrong, at a critical point in a climb.
 the fact that 100's of climbers have lived after rappelling from a "death triangle" does not make it safe.
the fact that I survived a rappel from a single 1/2" square troll nut tapped into a shallow groove in a snow-choked gulley in the middle of the night, in a blizzard, does not recommend that as a standard technique.
Circumstances of this accident are suggestive, but a bit reminiscent of the late Tom Dunwoodie's team fatality several years ago on the DNB. He was a very seasoned veteran, yet some sort of anchor failure which appeared to be belay-related took 2 lives. One scenario suggested the leader fell directly onto the belay, with no intermediate pro, generating a factor 2 fall. Todd Skinner's accident may also have involved such a shock-loading possibility. If these two were belaying off the sling(the report said the rope was not threaded thru the rap ring found) and one fell off the ledge with even a foot of slack, the shock could blow out a new sling, much less an old marginal one. These all share a common feature - counter-intuitive, in that "I only fell 3 feet", etc. We climbers appear to have trouble accepting that physics will always win, and our intuition is not always right.
After watching a film recently about the Huber brother's (at the time) UNsuccessful attempt to set a new speed record on the Nose, I realized that the tactics used are TOTALLY outside the realm of the safety norm, and if I were to try such an ascent, even if I moved as quickly as they, my time would be at least 15 minutes longer, just in adding the extra 30 seconds I'd be taking to open and close a second, locking carabiner at every belay where they trusted 1 wiregate.
One unintended consequence of the "X-Games" attitude infecting our sport, is the way such examples are absorbed by the impressionable newcomers. Without a history of personal experiences or sad-but-true tragedies, or old-school geezers to guide them, such unfortunate, perhaps avoidable accidents are going to be repeated.
The only moral I guess is, learn from others mistakes, share our own, be careful out there, watch out for one another (including your trusted partners), and take nothing for granted.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 15, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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One unintended consequence of the "X-Games" attitude infecting our sport, is the way such examples are absorbed by the impressionable newcomers. Without a history of personal experiences or sad-but-true tragedies, or old-school geezers to guide them, such unfortunate, perhaps avoidable accidents are going to be repeated.
well said. Be careful out there!
Let the climbers rest in peace, God bless 'em.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 15, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Like everyone else who has posted, my sympathies go out to the friends and families of the two who fell.
Many have pointed out the need to carry slings, rings, and a knife. One thing I have found useful, and which has saved my ass more than once, is to make sure any chalkbag I buy has a zippered pocket in the back. I think the original idea was that it would be for keys, but two rap rings and a small knife live in mine. That means I never -- ever -- have to think about it. They're automatically with me every time I climb outdoors.
Can't put a bunch of slings in there, of course, but I generally have a cordalette on my harness...
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RRGMRT
Trad climber
KY
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Nov 15, 2008 - 07:37pm PT
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An update on the Strohmeier/Fletcher accident investigation:
Because this accident occurred on USFS land in Wolfe County, KY, the incident is being investigated by USFS Law Enforcement. As this accident location is my responsibility for the RRGMRT, I was asked to participate in the investigation to help determine the exact cause of the accident. Last Tuesday, an investigative group, headed up by USFS Chief Investigator Kenneth Scarberry, that included three experienced trad climbers, spent several hours studying Coroner's photos of the scene and inspecting the climbers' gear, and we were able to arrive at a unanamous conclusion as to the cause.
I finished the group's accident analysis report and submitted it to Officer Scarberry, on Friday, November 15, 2008. Because this is an ongoing investigation, no details will be released at this time. It will be several weeks before the final report will be made public.
It is important to note that speculation on this and other internet forums as to how the accident occurred is inaccurate!
I will post a synopsis of the final report here as soon as USFS releases it.
Rick Weber
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climbsmart
Trad climber
Gunks
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Nov 17, 2008 - 07:48pm PT
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Wow. Sorry to hear that. Very tragic.
Beyond that, something doesn't sound right. What experienced climber doesn't tie in while belaying, or add a back-up sling/webbing to the anchor, and how would the ring get off the rope? Plus, even with no other gear available, why wouldn't he tie in with a bite of the rope?
ALWAYS triple-check your rap anchors! Many more climbers die from rapping than climbing. I've heard many tragic stories in my neck of the woods (The Gunks).
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jcques
Trad climber
quebec canada
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:17am PT
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"I know there are always lot of questions, but in the end, maybe the exact answers are not so important, all that really matters is something went wrong, and the consequences are severe."
I think that what really matters is: "how can we know when something will go wrong? Solo climber climb to the top and rope teams are unsafe. There is no rules, no bolt, no... that can prevent most accident. We all tie off safely from a belay to rap or to coil a rope. Tying off is not prescribe, but, if you save half an hour for a manipulation, you can be on the ground before the thonderstorm arrive.
To have a subjective accident, I believe that three condition most exist: we must have climbers, a wrong moment and a mistake. In this case, the three conditions exist, whatever it is. The exact answer is not important; the reminder is. Remind to always back up any sling or bolt that is not yours, to put a pro close to the belay and try to stay as close as possible from a fall factor of 0.5, rap one at a time and, if possible, walk down, etc.
I think that some people can anticipate wrong moment. They feel that something is going wrong without knowing exactly what. They estimate the gravity of the fall before making a move and are rarely in bad situation. When those climber are in a wrong moment, they don't follow a set of procedure. They decide which procedure can be apply at that exact moment. A climber who learn a technique which is good 60% of the time have 40% of chance of making a mistake. A climber who know two, three or four techniques can make a good choice in more situation and are less subject to accident.
when I think at that tragedy, I just can hope that one day the story save my life or the life of other climber. On a belay station, in a hurry to go to take a good cold beers, I will take time to evaluate the situation, choose a technique and make the move. Personally, I don't think that I have enought experience to avoid all danger.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 18, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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I'm very sorry to hear of such tragedy.
> I seem to recall some lab testing that revealed a nylon
> webbing exposed to the sun's UV rays for as little as a week,
> will result in as much as a 50% reduction in strength
> (although some other reports say 12 months).
>
> Most importantly: Degradation can take place without visible indications.
This is contrary testing and information I've seen. The UIAA even
suggested that for the most part, loss of color was the main problem
with UV, not strength; but they have other information, too.
For one thing, UV exposure varies w/location. But, in most any
case, no way will that 50%-in-a-week come outside of some lab with
a super-cooking UV emitter.
And, if the tape's colored, it will show effects; even white, it
should FEEL stiff. (And then, though much less so than w/rope,
there is the aspect that the rate of degradation will lessen,
once exterior fibres are cooked, interior ones holding on.)
Both Tom Moyer (www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/ )
and BD's Kolin Powick (if not also Sterling_Jim/Wootles)
have tested harvested old gear; I recall Tom's results being both
surprising on some sling that looked like hell (being strong) and
one that didn't look so bad (being rather weak--maybe a rope-burn
part that he overlooked!?). Kolin's testing I think will be
accessible by scrolling from this link, which is to his testing
of nylon & HMPE slings tied together:
http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php#current
> [Also, I was taught by an AMGA certified instructor that an
> overhand knot is actually stronger than a water not
I presume by "overhand knot" you mean an offset water knot;
and your "not" is right--it's NOT the case: quite the contrary.
> for tying webbing into a sling (leave at least a 1" tail).
> Overhand knot with a long (6-12") tail (backup not on one end
> for extra safety) is preferred and stronger than a figure 8,
> (and easier to remove) for joining 2 ropes for a long rap.]
> Correct me if you think this is wrong, but I'm pretty certain...
Be certain that you're wrong on both of those. You have slipped
into abseil-rope-joining knots, where the Offset Ring Bend (or
O.Overhand Bend or O.Water knot) has favor; but it's not for
strength, as many knots are stronger (but strength is hardly
needed), but for ease of (un)tying and flow over a surface and
compactness.
Below I attach something clipped from e-chatter at another time.
*kN*
------------ CLIP
Not too long ago I used my low-tech dynamometer to test EDK'd 1" slings to destruction:
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1503079;#1503079
[ Dec 16, 2006] Today I tested 1" tubular webbing with edk [OOB ORB] vs water knot, two specimens each.
The edk tore at the knot at 16.4 kn and 16.9 kn.
The water knotted sling broke both times right at 23 kn.
Both times it broke away from the knot, at the place where it was looped
around quicklink that secured it to the test chassis.\
[NB: THIS SHOWS A SEVERE WEAKENING BY THE TIGHT U-TURN OF THE
METAL, VS. THE BROADER TURN IN A 'BINER; ELSEWHERE, TESTING OF
OFFSET-RING-BENT SLINGS PRODUCES BREAKS IN THE KNOT (E.G., THAT
DONE RECENTLY BY ARIC DATESMAN ON THE ORB AND MY SYMMETRIC VARIATION
OF THE ORB). .:. SO THESE FIGURES ARE LOWER.]
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the lurkist
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Nov 18, 2008 - 11:38am PT
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There is an ongoing debate about fixed gear in the Red on redriverclimbing.com. This discussion was initially started out of this tragedy, but has predictably morphed into redpoint vs pinkpoint debate. Obviously sport climbing style has no bearing on this issue. What does is the culture of sport climbing that I am concerned is carried over into consideration and risk assessment of other gear on trad/ mixed routes.
I think the question, whether pragmatic or utilitarian or not, is whether the standard practice of having entire crags fixed with draws all in various degrees of degradation, as is very normalized at the Red, is teaching the younger generation bad habits.
As I reflected on this tragedy with a friend who spent years climbing in the Valley in the eighties, he pointed out that tragedies occurred there, too, and people took home the message paid for in blood by the unfortunates. While I know many on this bbs climb on bigger more committing stone than the Red offers and perhaps have not lost these lessons learned, we here in the Red, I think, have.
Perhaps the culture is here to stay due to the convenience of fixed draws at the Lode, et al..., but I think as we reflect on this accident, and out of respect to these kids who died too young and especially to their moms and dads, we as responsible citizens have to at least consider that mechanisms now accepted as normal played a part in their choices.
And if this is the case, could these mechanisms be changed to engineer into the normalized culture a fear/mistrust of this fixed gear.
I would particularly value the input of this crowd as the old crusty crew of the sport who have been there and seen that.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Nov 19, 2008 - 06:25pm PT
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Earlier, Clint quoted:
The webbing was completely white. Where the webbing was against the bolt there was a faint color of its original color, dark purple.
A couple years ago I pull-tested some faded-white 1" tubular webbing I bootied off of the Caverns at FOB. One loop failed at 7.2 kN, the other at 8.6 kN:
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp%2D24/update_8_april_07.htm
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Nov 19, 2008 - 06:40pm PT
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[Also, I was taught by an AMGA certified instructor that an overhand knot is actually stronger than a water not for tying webbing into a sling (leave at least a 1" tail).
I've actually done that test, and found exactly the opposite. In the rc.com post cited above by knudenoggin, I posted that the edk tore through at around 16.5 kN, while the ring bend held to 23kN. That's almost a 30% loss in strength for the EDK.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
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AMGA certified instructor
Just see ....
The rubber stamped official eats crow.
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