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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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what i am struck by is a feeling that any and all arguments or considerations which seem to oppose the installation of a pair of BOMBER bolts AND fixed rap chains at EVERY ANCHOR or even EVERY BELAY, are somehow indefensible, regardless of their well intentioned preservationist or environmentalist orgins.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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"This makes one consider becoming annoyingly evangelical at the crags.
...And makes me think that the dude that hammered us for TRing Insomnia through one
biner/sling was not such a nosy freak. "
Offering un-sought advice is always an awkward decision. Last season I came across a couple belaying off a small ledge and clipped in with only one non-locking biner. I stopped and thought a minute then decided I had a responsibility to say something. I started with -"sorry to butt in, its not really my business but..."
The guy said he appreciated that I had said something - though I think it kind of killed his buzz in front of his girl friend. What ever. Its particularly hard to say something when the young dude is climbing 4 grades over your max. But they still often don't have any mountain sense and presume (as do all teens) that their guardian angles will keep all harm from them.
I also remember distinctly to this day some advice I got 30 years ago. We (young 20 somethings) were cragging outside of Telluride. Topped out and set up to rapel off a single fixed pin. We had rapped it before as evidently had many others. But an old grey hair from town happened to come by and scolded us. Something to the effect "people who rap off one pin will die soon". That one comment still sticks in my mind all these years later. Thanks Bill
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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This is a parent's nightmare. I am greatly saddened and disturbed.
Condolences to their families and friends.
Take care people...
AF
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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This seems extreme to me.
"what i am struck by is a feeling that any and all arguments or considerations which seem to oppose the installation of a pair of BOMBER bolts AND fixed rap chains at EVERY ANCHOR or even EVERY BELAY, are somehow indefensible, regardless of their well intentioned preservationist or environmentalist orgins."
What next? Bolted cracks? auto belays? I'd rather see mandatory reading of John Longs Proper Anchors. Too many people start climbing outside with out knowing sh#t about rigging. Bolted and chained belays would only dumb the masses down further.
Just my $.02
Prod.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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so sad, I can't imagine how their parents must feel
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jstan said: "With increasing regularity, of late, we see reports of accidents that should never have happened. Accidents we know how to prevent."
In part we can blame simply larger numbers of climbers. More climbers, plus the same accident rate would automatically equal increased accidents.
However I tend to agree with the mob mentallity of "WTF?".
Bail webbing should be on everyones rack. Bailing off bleach white webbing (which surely felt dry and crunchy) is just begging for the darwin award.
I'm also confused by the lowering aspect of this. Was there only one ATC between the two? Why lower through the rap ring? That alone nearly doubles the force on the anchor versus a single person rapping on a doubled rope (the argument commonly given for not sumul-rapping).
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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very, very sad.
from the reports so far it seem that he could also have been belaying her on lead off the sling--through a biner clipped to the sling or just off his harness, while he was anchored to the sling. a high factor fall if so.
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jstan
climber
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Whether something is the cause of an individual accident one of course, can never really know. But an observation.
Even forty years ago when you first got on a climb with an expert person there was the chance the student could come to believe "everything was taken care of" and that we were not involved in an activity where you had, constantly, to "try and increase your odds." Forty years ago the experts repeatedly delivered the message that when you are hanging on a rock, everything can never really be "taken care of".
Today people are coming to climbing by many different avenues, some just by seeing it on TV or in a movie. In most of those avenues it at least appears that there really are not any unknowns and lots of shiny gear that appears absurdly strong. Disturbingly, this presentation is calculated. It is not accidental. There is not an ever present message that even should your head not fall down and break on a rock, the rock may fall down onto your head - you never know.
People are out there with no concept of the importance of, or even the existence of redundancy. And no idea that when several people are rappelling, the odds can be shifted by using backups for all but the last one to rappel.
It really is disturbing when, in order to make climbing appear saleable, we don't always have the message "Be aware. This can get really sketchy."
We do of course have the message "If you have read this, by law you can't sue me." Since that is everywhere, we of course do not believe it.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Prod-
I agree entirely with your comments.
It's just that "dumbing down the masses", and "bringing the rock down to the lowest common denominator", and all the other ways to phrase it somehow ring a bit hollow when I start to picture dead kids, the destroyed lives of the parents of dead kids, grieving friends of dead kids...
I'm sure you get the point.
Truth is, with the exponential grown of climbing as a recreational activity for young people, this probably won't have to happen too many more times before political pressure emerges to somehow make outdoor climbing areas "safe". Food for thought.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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After the past thirty years, the discussion almost becomes one of "infrastructure", what anchors 'mean', and what mindset of responsibility we indivually and collectively carry with us. I think it's easy for younger generations to mistakenly assume - because they're so important - that some 'authority' insures, or has insured, anchors are 'safe' simply by the fact they are there.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Edit: its best not to make assinine assumptions at this time...
RIP and condolences to friends and family
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I wasn't...
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jstan
climber
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The "shit happens-- condolences" was pretty bad. Thankfully it has disappeared.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Dissappeared? You just posted it?!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Its not assinine.
I've seen young climbers trusting a single anchor, and when I said something I was assured by them that the anchors are entirely trustworthy because they are placed by the rangers (!!!!!!?).
(I decided not to tell them that actually the person who placed the anchor was the same one that was telling them not to trust it,....)
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"What next? Bolted cracks? auto belays? I'd rather see mandatory reading of John Longs Proper Anchors. Too many people start climbing outside with out knowing sh#t about rigging. Bolted and chained belays would only dumb the masses down further."
"I think it's easy for younger generations to mistakenly assume - because they're so important - that some 'authority' insures, or has insured, anchors are 'safe' simply by the fact they are there."
As a young (just turned 20) climber, I'm inclined to agree. Part of it has to do with many climbers, young and old, being raised in a gym rather than outdoors, and part of it has to do with young people feeling a bit immortal in general.
That said, Ben doesn't sound like he was inexperienced. Maybe he always clipped the anchor and just missed it this time. Who hasn't done that?
Can't imagine how the others at Miguel's feel.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"Maybe he always clipped the anchor and just missed it this time. Who hasn't done that? "
In 15 years I haven't. There are certain things that you just shouldn't be missing. This is one of them.
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Binks
Social climber
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Terrible tragedy. I'm super paranoid about this kind of thing. I've left entire cordolets, slings, extra biners etc when I probably never needed to on many anchors where the webbing seemed old... I feel less bad about it when I hear a story like this.
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jstan
climber
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Speaking of those awful moments when facing the need to intrude upon others.
In the Gunks I once topped out on a climb right where a family was standing. Two kids were spray painting graffiti on the rock as the father, who was looking out into the valley said, "What do you mean crowded? Look at all the land that can be developed!"
You all will think I am kidding. The family may have picked up the scene from the New Yorker, about that I can't hazard a guess. But it happened.
You folks may have come upon the only way to cut these deaths down. You have to intrude, nicely. Damned if I know how to intrude nicely. But you all are better than I was.
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