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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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First L called me MK, now it's witch hunter. Some systemic problem, I guess.
How can Georgia and Ukraine be "treasonous"? They are internationally recognized nations with internationally recognized boundaries. There seem to be issues relating to their relationship with Russia, treatment of minority enclaves, etc, but Russia absorbed them in the 18th and 19th centuries, briefly let them go in 1918 - 21, and then officially let them go in 1991. There are undoubtedly Russian revanchists who wish to re-absorb the "Stans", or at least keep them on a short leash, as the recent war in Georgia showed. But they're independent countries, with the right to make their own decisions - however unlovely their actual governments.
Yes, much if not all of the present-day United States was stolen, by the standards of modern international law. Winner's "justice". Certainly including much of the southwest. In some cases, the U.S. could argue with a reasonably straight face that the land was "bought" from others, e.g. France or Spain, although it's doubtful if the latter owned or had the right to sell it. And treaties with various Indian nations, however one-sided and misapplied. But as has been said on several occasions, "It's ours and we stole it fair and square."
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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Oct 10, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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MH, sorry about the MK thing.
California was never bought, a bunch of gringos decided to secede from Mexico. That's precedence. And by your own admission, much of this country was stolen, hence the residents of those formally independent "nations" never had the choice to join the union. Following you line of thinking regarding the former Soviet Union, every state in our union has the right to secede.
Just show me one country that has retained it's original borders throughout history, just one.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 10, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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I like how a thread that started as an ironic post pointing out just how stupid McCain and the right-wing media's arguments are has digressed into something even more dumb.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 10, 2008 - 07:10pm PT
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So MK, why is the U.S. supporting the treasonous nations like Ukraine and Georgia? Or does your logic only apply to this country.
Good thing the founding fathers didn't follow this line of thinking. We all would be eating haggis and chips.
Also, by following your line of reasoning, Texas and California still belong to Mexico because the residents of those states never had the right to secede from Mexico.
uh... "treason" as it applies in the US is a term defined in the US constitution. Yes, it only applies to US states. Other nations have other definitions. Regardless of any of that, Ukraine and Georgia did no secede from anything. They were soviet republics, and the Soviet Union disbanded.
Texas and California were not US states prior to joining the US, so US law had no bearing on that.
Furthermore, a state or nation does not commit treason. A person does.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 10, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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I have committed treason on a number of occasions.
I treasoned on East Bay MUD lands a number of times to go swimming in Briones Reservoir, San Leandro Reservoir, etc.
Oh TREASON, I thought you meant trespass.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Oct 12, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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What a dunderhead!!
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Oct 12, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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BW...once again conservatives strikeout with political satire. Is Faux News trying to be like Comedy Central in hopes of gaining more viewers? Anyway, that video was a waste of 5 mins. of my precious life, thanks for nothing!
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 12, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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I think my I.Q. dropped after I finished that video.
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