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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 7, 2008 - 12:02am PT
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Palin's Attack On Obama's Patriotism Legitimizes Questions About The Palins' Association With Group Founded By America-Hating Secessionist
By Greg Sargent - October 4, 2008, 4:55PM
Sarah Palin attacked Obama's patriotism today over his association with former Weatherman Bill Ayers -- a move that makes it perfectly legitimate to raise questions about the Palins' associations with a group founded by an Alaska secessionist who once professed his "hatred for the American government" and cursed our "damn flag."
In Colorado today, Palin seized on the big front-page New York Times story about Ayers and Obama, which concludes that the two men "do not appear to have been close," to launch her most vicious attack yet on the Illinois Senator -- a harbinger of what's to come.
"This is not a man who sees America as you and I do -- as the greatest force for good in the world," Palin said. "This is someone who sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists who targeted their own country."
If Palin is going to say this, it is now perfectly legitimate to point out that she repeatedly courted a secessionist group founded by someone who openly professed hatred of the American government, cursed our flag, and wanted to secede from the Union. Sarah's husband, Todd Palin, was a member of this group, which continues to venerate that founder to this day, for years.
As you already know, the group is the Alaska Independence Party, which sees as its ultimate goal seceding from the union. Todd was a member, with a brief exception, from 1995 until 2002, according to the Division of Elections in Alaska.
And though Sarah Palin herself was apparently not a member of this group, there's no doubt that she repeatedly courted this secessionist organization over the years. In 1994, Palin attended the group's annual convention, according to witnesses who spoke to ABC News' Jake Tapper. The McCain campaign has confirmed she visited the group's 2000 convention, and she addressed its convention this year, as an incumbent governor whose oath of office includes upholding the Constitution of the United States.
The founder of the AIP was a man named Joe Vogler. Here's what he had to say in a 1991 interview, only a few years before Palin attended its convention: "The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government."
He also said this: "And I won't be buried under their damn flag. I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home."
Vogler has also said: "I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."
McCain apologists will argue that Sarah Palin was not a member of this group. But Obama wasn't a member of any Ayers anti-American group, either. And again, Palin repeatedly courted the AIP, and her husband was a member for years.
The main takeaway from today's Times story is that Obama's ties to Ayers are, if anything, less substantial than commonly alleged. So if the Ayers association means Obama "palled around" with "terrorists," as Palin put it today, surely Palin can be said to have "palled around" with a secessionist party whose founder openly professed hatred of America.
If Palin is going to directly question Obama's patriotism over his association Ayers, surely all these facts are now fair game and freshly relevant.
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Flashlight
climber
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What makes that any different than Obama's wife?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2008 - 12:05am PT
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When I first heard about this I thought that the Alaska Independence Party was a harmless group of nuts. But then why did Jim Volger, its founder, die in a plastic explosives deal?
Remains of Alaska Separatist Are Identified
Published: October 15, 1994
Fingerprint tests show that human remains found in a gravel pit east of Fairbanks on Wednesday are those of Joe Vogler, the founder of the Alaskan Independence Party, who vanished in May 1993, Alaska state troopers said today.
The discovery of the remains, following an anonymous tip to the authorities, apparently resolves a year-and-a-half-old mystery concerning Mr. Vogler, a folk hero throughout the state who was 80 when he disappeared from his home here.
The blue tarp and duct tape in which the remains were wrapped, officials said, matched a description given by a convicted thief, Manfred West, who confessed last summer that he had killed Mr. Vogler in a plastic-explosives sale gone bad and had then buried him.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jody, maybe because she (Michelle) was 4 years old at the time, while Palin was an adult and already involved with politics ?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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I doubt you'll get any traction by employing logic and stating facts.
Curt
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2008 - 12:09am PT
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Jody, before you start telling lies about Obama's wife, you would do well to reread the Nineth Commandment. Michelle Obama did not marry a terrorist.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"What makes that any different than Obama's wife?"
The cool thing about your reality is that it doesn't actually exist. You're kind of missing the point of the thread. *whoosh*
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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(sarc) We can't question her or her way of life, she is one of US.
Afterall, I know that I have:
Children pregnant out of wedlock
Beliefs of dinosaurs and men cohabitating
A spouse that supported state secession
A preacher that "exorcised" my demons
etc....
Riiiight, she represents America, Josef Sikspacque, and Hockey moms.
edit: Jody, bookworm, Juan, etal... are you ones like her, or is she like y'all.
Hahahahaha !
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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yes yes yes. I've been waiting for this one. The party of Lincoln! Sure! Right! Absolutely!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Yes, the rethuglican shills/sheeple who insist that Palins Hubby's association with this group is no big deal have no problem with that little bit about the fellow in the group getting blown up in a plastic explosives deal.
Now really, WHO NEEDS PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES?
I can think of a few, but not many.
Lemmesseehere.... TERRORISTS!!!
and um, the military. and demolition companies.
SOMEHOW I don't think the Alaska secessionist movement was involved with the military or legitimate demolition. Call it a gut feeling.
And I have it on GOOD rethuglican authority that these gut hunches are never wrong.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I had a look at the website for the Alaskan Independence Party. If they get to secede then so should California.
But remind me again, where did the money come from to buy Alaska from the Russians?
Oh yes, the US government, that’s right.
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dirtbag
climber
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"My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."
Words spoken by the First Dude's Party founder.
And what did Governor Sarah Palin say to this radical secessionist group earlier this year?
"Keep up the good work"
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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The cool thing about Alaska is that it was never bought from Russia. It actually was leased for 100 years. I’m curious how much Palin aware of the lease end date?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Wow when I first read the OT I envisioned a liaszon between Palin and Cheney. Brrrr.
But great thread.
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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graniteclimber, stop spreading crap! Manfred West was a tweeker that tried to rob Vogler at his home, Vogler wouldn't deal with him, so West shot him. The "explosive" issue has to do with West blowing up his brothers cabin while trying to escape from the cops. After it burned to the ground and they where digging through the rubble, they found a trap door in the floor, and when opened, discovered West in the 'bomb shelter" eating and listening to the radio.
And Flashlight, I hope you realize that comments like you made about Obama's wife can get you killed. Let me guess, your the dick that was at the Palin rally the other day screaming about assassinating Obama. Doesn't matter if your a pig, your time is coming. Hell, what am I saying, we shouldn't expect anything different from bureaucratic welfare scabs milking the dole. Maybe someday you'll have to get a real job, maybe even loose some weight. Of course you'll need more education, all the illegals have taken the jobs that the high school flunkies scream about loosing. I guess you could always fall back on "sucking c*#k, back stage, at the Armory."
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/07/palins_unamerican/
The Palins' un-American activities
"My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."
The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that's the very same secessionist party that her husband, Todd, belonged to for seven years and that she sent a shout-out to as Alaska governor earlier this year. ("Keep up the good work," Palin told AIP members. "And God bless you.")
So who are these America-haters that the Palins are pallin' around with?
Before his strange murder in 1993, party founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Vogler, who always carried a Magnum with him, was fond of saying, "When the [federal] bureaucrats come after me, I suggest they wear red coats. They make better targets. In the federal government are the biggest liars in the United States, and I hate them with a passion. They think they own [Alaska]. There comes a time when people will choose to die with honor rather than live with dishonor. That time may be coming here. Our goal is ultimate independence by peaceful means under a minimal government fully responsive to the people. I hope we don't have to take human life, but if they go on tramping on our property rights, look out, we're ready to die."
This quote is from "Coming Into the Country," by John McPhee, who traipsed around Alaska's remote gold mining country with Vogler for his 1991 book.
...
"Vogler's greatest moment of glory was to be his 1993 appearance before the United Nations to denounce United States "tyranny" before the entire world and to demand Alaska's freedom. The Alaska secessionist had persuaded the government of Iran to sponsor his anti-American harangue.
That's right ... Iran. The Islamic dictatorship. The taker of American hostages. The rogue nation that McCain and Palin have excoriated Obama for suggesting we diplomatically engage. That Iran. "
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