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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 7, 2008 - 12:02am PT
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Palin's Attack On Obama's Patriotism Legitimizes Questions About The Palins' Association With Group Founded By America-Hating Secessionist
By Greg Sargent - October 4, 2008, 4:55PM
Sarah Palin attacked Obama's patriotism today over his association with former Weatherman Bill Ayers -- a move that makes it perfectly legitimate to raise questions about the Palins' associations with a group founded by an Alaska secessionist who once professed his "hatred for the American government" and cursed our "damn flag."
In Colorado today, Palin seized on the big front-page New York Times story about Ayers and Obama, which concludes that the two men "do not appear to have been close," to launch her most vicious attack yet on the Illinois Senator -- a harbinger of what's to come.
"This is not a man who sees America as you and I do -- as the greatest force for good in the world," Palin said. "This is someone who sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists who targeted their own country."
If Palin is going to say this, it is now perfectly legitimate to point out that she repeatedly courted a secessionist group founded by someone who openly professed hatred of the American government, cursed our flag, and wanted to secede from the Union. Sarah's husband, Todd Palin, was a member of this group, which continues to venerate that founder to this day, for years.
As you already know, the group is the Alaska Independence Party, which sees as its ultimate goal seceding from the union. Todd was a member, with a brief exception, from 1995 until 2002, according to the Division of Elections in Alaska.
And though Sarah Palin herself was apparently not a member of this group, there's no doubt that she repeatedly courted this secessionist organization over the years. In 1994, Palin attended the group's annual convention, according to witnesses who spoke to ABC News' Jake Tapper. The McCain campaign has confirmed she visited the group's 2000 convention, and she addressed its convention this year, as an incumbent governor whose oath of office includes upholding the Constitution of the United States.
The founder of the AIP was a man named Joe Vogler. Here's what he had to say in a 1991 interview, only a few years before Palin attended its convention: "The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government."
He also said this: "And I won't be buried under their damn flag. I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home."
Vogler has also said: "I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."
McCain apologists will argue that Sarah Palin was not a member of this group. But Obama wasn't a member of any Ayers anti-American group, either. And again, Palin repeatedly courted the AIP, and her husband was a member for years.
The main takeaway from today's Times story is that Obama's ties to Ayers are, if anything, less substantial than commonly alleged. So if the Ayers association means Obama "palled around" with "terrorists," as Palin put it today, surely Palin can be said to have "palled around" with a secessionist party whose founder openly professed hatred of America.
If Palin is going to directly question Obama's patriotism over his association Ayers, surely all these facts are now fair game and freshly relevant.
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Flashlight
climber
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What makes that any different than Obama's wife?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2008 - 12:05am PT
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When I first heard about this I thought that the Alaska Independence Party was a harmless group of nuts. But then why did Jim Volger, its founder, die in a plastic explosives deal?
Remains of Alaska Separatist Are Identified
Published: October 15, 1994
Fingerprint tests show that human remains found in a gravel pit east of Fairbanks on Wednesday are those of Joe Vogler, the founder of the Alaskan Independence Party, who vanished in May 1993, Alaska state troopers said today.
The discovery of the remains, following an anonymous tip to the authorities, apparently resolves a year-and-a-half-old mystery concerning Mr. Vogler, a folk hero throughout the state who was 80 when he disappeared from his home here.
The blue tarp and duct tape in which the remains were wrapped, officials said, matched a description given by a convicted thief, Manfred West, who confessed last summer that he had killed Mr. Vogler in a plastic-explosives sale gone bad and had then buried him.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jody, maybe because she (Michelle) was 4 years old at the time, while Palin was an adult and already involved with politics ?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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I doubt you'll get any traction by employing logic and stating facts.
Curt
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2008 - 12:09am PT
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Jody, before you start telling lies about Obama's wife, you would do well to reread the Nineth Commandment. Michelle Obama did not marry a terrorist.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"What makes that any different than Obama's wife?"
The cool thing about your reality is that it doesn't actually exist. You're kind of missing the point of the thread. *whoosh*
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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(sarc) We can't question her or her way of life, she is one of US.
Afterall, I know that I have:
Children pregnant out of wedlock
Beliefs of dinosaurs and men cohabitating
A spouse that supported state secession
A preacher that "exorcised" my demons
etc....
Riiiight, she represents America, Josef Sikspacque, and Hockey moms.
edit: Jody, bookworm, Juan, etal... are you ones like her, or is she like y'all.
Hahahahaha !
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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yes yes yes. I've been waiting for this one. The party of Lincoln! Sure! Right! Absolutely!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Yes, the rethuglican shills/sheeple who insist that Palins Hubby's association with this group is no big deal have no problem with that little bit about the fellow in the group getting blown up in a plastic explosives deal.
Now really, WHO NEEDS PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES?
I can think of a few, but not many.
Lemmesseehere.... TERRORISTS!!!
and um, the military. and demolition companies.
SOMEHOW I don't think the Alaska secessionist movement was involved with the military or legitimate demolition. Call it a gut feeling.
And I have it on GOOD rethuglican authority that these gut hunches are never wrong.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I had a look at the website for the Alaskan Independence Party. If they get to secede then so should California.
But remind me again, where did the money come from to buy Alaska from the Russians?
Oh yes, the US government, that’s right.
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dirtbag
climber
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"My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."
Words spoken by the First Dude's Party founder.
And what did Governor Sarah Palin say to this radical secessionist group earlier this year?
"Keep up the good work"
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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The cool thing about Alaska is that it was never bought from Russia. It actually was leased for 100 years. I’m curious how much Palin aware of the lease end date?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Wow when I first read the OT I envisioned a liaszon between Palin and Cheney. Brrrr.
But great thread.
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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graniteclimber, stop spreading crap! Manfred West was a tweeker that tried to rob Vogler at his home, Vogler wouldn't deal with him, so West shot him. The "explosive" issue has to do with West blowing up his brothers cabin while trying to escape from the cops. After it burned to the ground and they where digging through the rubble, they found a trap door in the floor, and when opened, discovered West in the 'bomb shelter" eating and listening to the radio.
And Flashlight, I hope you realize that comments like you made about Obama's wife can get you killed. Let me guess, your the dick that was at the Palin rally the other day screaming about assassinating Obama. Doesn't matter if your a pig, your time is coming. Hell, what am I saying, we shouldn't expect anything different from bureaucratic welfare scabs milking the dole. Maybe someday you'll have to get a real job, maybe even loose some weight. Of course you'll need more education, all the illegals have taken the jobs that the high school flunkies scream about loosing. I guess you could always fall back on "sucking c*#k, back stage, at the Armory."
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/07/palins_unamerican/
The Palins' un-American activities
"My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."
The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that's the very same secessionist party that her husband, Todd, belonged to for seven years and that she sent a shout-out to as Alaska governor earlier this year. ("Keep up the good work," Palin told AIP members. "And God bless you.")
So who are these America-haters that the Palins are pallin' around with?
Before his strange murder in 1993, party founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Vogler, who always carried a Magnum with him, was fond of saying, "When the [federal] bureaucrats come after me, I suggest they wear red coats. They make better targets. In the federal government are the biggest liars in the United States, and I hate them with a passion. They think they own [Alaska]. There comes a time when people will choose to die with honor rather than live with dishonor. That time may be coming here. Our goal is ultimate independence by peaceful means under a minimal government fully responsive to the people. I hope we don't have to take human life, but if they go on tramping on our property rights, look out, we're ready to die."
This quote is from "Coming Into the Country," by John McPhee, who traipsed around Alaska's remote gold mining country with Vogler for his 1991 book.
...
"Vogler's greatest moment of glory was to be his 1993 appearance before the United Nations to denounce United States "tyranny" before the entire world and to demand Alaska's freedom. The Alaska secessionist had persuaded the government of Iran to sponsor his anti-American harangue.
That's right ... Iran. The Islamic dictatorship. The taker of American hostages. The rogue nation that McCain and Palin have excoriated Obama for suggesting we diplomatically engage. That Iran. "
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2008 - 02:55am PT
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Here is the whole article.
The Palins' un-American activities
Imagine if the Obamas had hooked up with a violently anti-American group in league with the government of Iran.
By David Talbot
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and her husband, Todd, at a rally in Vienna, Ohio, on Sept. 16, 2008.
Oct. 7, 2008 | "My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."
This was former revolutionary terrorist Bill Ayers back in his old Weather Underground days, right? Imagine what Sarah Palin is going to do with this incendiary quote as she tears into Barack Obama this week.
Only one problem. The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that's the very same secessionist party that her husband, Todd, belonged to for seven years and that she sent a shout-out to as Alaska governor earlier this year. ("Keep up the good work," Palin told AIP members. "And God bless you.")
AIP chairwoman Lynette Clark told me recently that Sarah Palin is her kind of gal. "She's Alaskan to the bone ... she sounds just like Joe Vogler."
So who are these America-haters that the Palins are pallin' around with?
Before his strange murder in 1993, party founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Vogler, who always carried a Magnum with him, was fond of saying, "When the [federal] bureaucrats come after me, I suggest they wear red coats. They make better targets. In the federal government are the biggest liars in the United States, and I hate them with a passion. They think they own [Alaska]. There comes a time when people will choose to die with honor rather than live with dishonor. That time may be coming here. Our goal is ultimate independence by peaceful means under a minimal government fully responsive to the people. I hope we don't have to take human life, but if they go on tramping on our property rights, look out, we're ready to die."
This quote is from "Coming Into the Country," by John McPhee, who traipsed around Alaska's remote gold mining country with Vogler for his 1991 book. The violent-tempered secessionist vowed to McPhee that if any federal official tried to stop him from polluting Alaska's rivers with his earth-moving equipment, he would "run over him with a Cat and turn mosquitoes loose on him while he dies."
Vogler wasn't just a blowhard either. He put his secessionist ideas into action, working to build AIP membership to 20,000 -- an impressive figure by Alaska standards -- and to elect party member Walter Hickel as governor in 1990.
Vogler's greatest moment of glory was to be his 1993 appearance before the United Nations to denounce United States "tyranny" before the entire world and to demand Alaska's freedom. The Alaska secessionist had persuaded the government of Iran to sponsor his anti-American harangue.
That's right ... Iran. The Islamic dictatorship. The taker of American hostages. The rogue nation that McCain and Palin have excoriated Obama for suggesting we diplomatically engage. That Iran.
AIP leaders allege that Vogler, who was murdered that year by a fellow secessionist, was taken out by powerful forces in the U.S. before he could reach his U.N. platform. "The United States government would have been deeply embarrassed," by Vogler's U.N. speech, darkly suggests Clark. "And we can't have that, can we?"
The Republican ticket is working hard this week to make Barack Obama's tenuous connection to graying, '60s revolutionary Bill Ayers a major campaign issue. But the Palins' connection to anti-American extremism is much more central to their political biographies.
Imagine the uproar if Michelle Obama was revealed to have joined a black nationalist party whose founder preached armed secession from the United States and who enlisted the government of Iran in his cause? The Obama campaign would probably not have survived such an explosive revelation. Particularly if Barack Obama himself was videotaped giving the anti-American secessionists his wholehearted support just months ago.
Where's the outrage, Sarah Palin has been asking this week, in her attacks on Obama's fuzzy ties to Ayers? The question is more appropriate when applied to her own disturbing associations.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2008 - 03:12am PT
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"graniteclimber, stop spreading crap! Manfred West was a tweeker that tried to rob Vogler at his home,"
See the New York Times story earlier in the post. It is consistent with other stories on this. If you have a better source, post it.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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The cool thing about Alaska is that it was never bought from Russia. It actually was leased for 100 years.
Vlani, I never knew that. Guess I will have to do a little homework on the net. But to the best of my to-date knowledge, it was purchased not leased.
BTW, don't get this wrong, but in the past you have appeared (to me at least) as somewhat of a Russia apologist, would this be the case with claiming that Alaska was leased and not purchased?
Anyway, who cares about the Palins, McCain is going to lose.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It would no doubt greatly surprise the Aleuts, Inupiat and other "native Americans" who have lived in what is now Alaska for millenia to learn that Russia at one time "owned" their land, let alone then "sold" it to another country.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Anders, according to the Papal Bull, Sublimus Dei, issued by Pope Paul III on May 29, 1537, it declares the indigenous peoples of the Americas to be rational beings with souls, denouncing any idea to the contrary as directly inspired by the "enemy of the human race" (Satan).
The pope goes on to condemn their reduction to slavery in the strongest terms, declaring it null and void for as well as for any people known or that could be discovered in the future, entitles their right to liberty and property (my italics).
However, if one were to apply the Spanish encomienda system, whereby the conquistadors were granted trusteeship over the indigenous people of the New World, then that means that any land is not the Indians. And of course, Manifest Destiny means that expansion of the United States in North America is also justified.
So to hell with those pesky Injuns in Alaska, and those pesky Ruski commies too. Alaska is ‘ours’.
And for that matter, Michael Moore got it a bit wrong in Canadian Bacon. The real casus belli for going to war with you Canucks is to reclaim the Oregon Country from you thieves (and I don’t care if the British were there first).
That wimp James Buchanan (as Secretary of State, before he was president) capitulated to the Redcoats in The Oregon Treaty in 1846, and by right, under the Manifest Destiny doctrine, the US should have kept all of the territory.
We should take it all back and even go beyond the 54º 40’ and connect the Contiguous United States with Alaska.
To hell with you Canucks.
;-)
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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graniteclimber, my source is me, I was living in Fairbanks at the time this all went down. You're basing you belief on that article and West's admission, what the article doesn't say is that West admitted to the killing and told the police that he had dumbed the body in the Tanana river, blue trap, duct tape and all. The police took that info, plotted an area around Fairbanks equal in driving distance to West's confession, and then found his body, almost 180 degrees in the other direction.
What it comes down to is that you're believing the words of a tweeker, and simply by definition, all tweekers are brain damaged.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
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"graniteclimber, my source is me, I was living in Fairbanks at the time this all went down."
Is this like Palin being an expert in Russian affairs because if she had gone to a certain island (which she never visted) she would have been able to look at a Russian island through binoculars?
Like I said, if you have a better source, post it. Otherwise... take your own advise and "stop spreading crap."
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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Oct 10, 2008 - 10:36am PT
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graniteclimber, here you go dingleberry.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19940925&slug=1932524
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941014&slug=1935914
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941013&slug=1935701
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941015&slug=1936074
http://www.amazon.com/City-Confidential-Fairbanks-Mining-Murder/dp/0767023013
http://www.akip.org/history1.html
http://www.pubfilms.com/movies/V252936
http://touchngo.com/ap/html/ap-1482.htm
http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2008/09/obama-weve-got/comments/page/2/
Please note the play by play at the time reported in the Seattle Times. The only person ever to say Joe Vogler's murder was a result of an explosives deal gone bad was West. And why do you think he came up with this story? If he had confessed to the fact that he went to Vogler's place simply to rob him, he would have gotten the death penalty for his crime.
Nobody connected to Vogler, the Vogler estate, or the AIP was ever charged with any explosives violations. Yeah, Vogler had explosives at his property, but so do all hard rock miners in the state.
Honestly, you should really think twice about using the New York Times as your only source. Remember, believe half of what you read, and none of what you hear.
Ironically, Joe Vogler was a self proclaimed Jeffersonian Democrat. I'm actually surprised that the GOP hasn't turned this thing around by using it as evidence that Palin can work in a bipartisan fashion, you know, reaching across party lines, all party's lines.
Now don't get me wrong, I can't stand Palin and I've lost all respect for McCain, but when you have people that you agree with putting out lies and innuendo, it just hurts the movement.
And remember, Joe Vogler was not treasonous, he was a secessionist, he never advocated the overthrow of the United States, he advocated secession from it.
And if there was a legitimate secession movement in California, I'd be knocking on doors in support of it.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 10, 2008 - 11:33am PT
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What makes that any different than Obama's wife?
Jody, you know how I know that I'm right and you're wrong?
I criticize McCain & Palin by pointing out that their proposed policies suck and I don't like the way they're running their campaign.
You criticize Obama by calling him a terrorist.
Did you even *have* a first grade teacher or a mother? 'cuz mine both taught me that calling people names is poor behavior.
Or does "do unto others..." only apply to people you agree with?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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"And remember, Joe Vogler was not treasonous, he was a secessionist, he never advocated the overthrow of the United States, he advocated secession from it."
Didn't your civil war establish that it is treasonous to attempt to secede from the U.S.? That is, that it is contrary to the constitution? I'm not sure whether that would make advocating secession, but not necessarily 'doing' anything about it, treasonous, but it seems awful close.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 10, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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Here's what John Weaver, McCain’s former top strategist, has to say about all the "obama is a terrorist" crap:
“People need to understand, for moral reasons and the protection of our civil society, the differences with Sen. Obama are ideological, based on clear differences on policy and a lack of experience compared to Sen. McCain,” Weaver said. “And from a purely practical political vantage point, please find me a swing voter, an undecided independent, or a torn female voter that finds an angry mob mentality attractive.”
“Sen. Obama is a classic liberal with an outdated economic agenda. We should take that agenda on in a robust manner. As a party we should not and must not stand by as the small amount of haters in our society question whether he is as American as the rest of us. Shame on them and shame on us if we allow this to take hold.”
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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Oct 10, 2008 - 11:59am PT
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Forest, think about it, why does Flashlight hate Obama so much? Because Flashlight is a communist.
Flashlight was raised by a lifetime bureaucrat sucking the government tit.
Then Flashlight, realizing that he can't make it in the free market world, gets an overpaid job working for the government, in a brown shirt no less.
And finally, he's a member of a union!
It always kills me when people living on the dole complain about the government.
I'm looking forward to Schwarzenegger cutting off the tit to government workers in California, we can't afford it anymore.
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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Oct 10, 2008 - 12:16pm PT
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Mighty Hiker, you're not talking about the "War of Northern Aggression", are you?
Obviously, you haven't read the Constitution recently.
Article VII
"The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same."
The states where individual entities before the ratification of the Constitution, and as individuals, they in essence signed a treaty with other states. Treaties can and are broken. Hence, secession is American as apple pie and political disagreements.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 10, 2008 - 12:34pm PT
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Forest, think about it, why does Flashlight hate Obama so much? Because Flashlight is a communist.
Flashlight was raised by a lifetime bureaucrat sucking the government tit.
Then Flashlight, realizing that he can't make it in the free market world, gets an overpaid job working for the government, in a brown shirt no less.
Now I can't really stand for that statement. I don't see how anyone could call police officers overpaid. That's like calling teachers overpaid. Just flat out wrong. Nor can I possibly see any shame in working for the govt. Govt (and jody's job in particular) exists to keep the peace and allow people to go about their lives unharrased.
Nor can I possibly stand by criticism of Jody's father for his lifetime spent doing a job that we would all take if given the opportunity. He got to spend his life outdoors and get paid for it. I can't see that as a bad thing.
Jody's just letting himself get carried away by the right-wing haters. He knows it's wrong, and I'm calling him out on it.
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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Oct 10, 2008 - 12:42pm PT
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Forest,
By Flashlight's own admission, he's paid in excess of $97k a year and gets 7 weeks vacation. For what he does, that's overpaid in my book. This guy drives around enforcing traffic code all day, The County Supervisors for the very county he lives in are paid $20k less than him. At least he's not a SLO City pig, they are making $102k plus a year.
Yeah, his dad got to work out doors all day and got paid for it. That's my point, we, the tax payers paid for it, just like we are paying for Flashlight now. I work outside all day and I get paid, but it doesn't cost you a penny.
It's excessive pay, with the police and prison guards leading the way, that is bankrupting the state of California.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 10, 2008 - 01:31pm PT
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$97k/year isn't exactly a CEO's salary out there. For CA, I'd call it upper middle class at the most. I'm surprised to hear it's that high, but I'd also guess that Jody's been with the force long enough to place him at or near the very top of the CHP pay scale by this point. For a job where you're potentially getting shot at occasionally, it doesn't strike me as absurdly high.
Regardless, calling him or his father a communist is absurd and totally beside the point.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2008 - 03:43pm PT
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Umm, I'm far from an expert in U.S. constitutional law and history. But I believe that the south (aka Confederacy) LOST your civil war. And that Lincoln and other federal leaders insisted from the start that the war was about whether states had the right to secede once they had joined the Union, or not. Only later did the abolition of slavery, at least on paper, become a conjoined goal.
Which suggests that is treasonous to actually attempt to secede. Given the world view of most of those advocating secession (wing nuts), I can understand why prosecutors don't bother to charge such people with conspiracy to attempt treason, that is to attempt to secede, but it's clearly possible.
I also understand that there are some revisionists in the south who fantasize about not having lost the civil war, and indeed reversing what it decided. Often cloaked in arguments about "states' rights", which in turn also often contain less savoury and not-so-hidden agendas relating to race. Sorry - the argument was made and lost 140 years ago. It's a non-starter. The Civil War, not to mention the rise of the American Empire under McKinley and Teddy Roosevelt, World War I, the Depression, World War II, then the Cold War and the Great Society, clearly established that your federal government would have a major role in the governance of your country.
As has been wittily observed, the rise of the so-called "new south" in the U.S. is largely a result of the widespread adoption of air conditioning since the 1950s.
Edit: As it happens, air conditioning was more or less invented and certainly made a commercial reality by Willis deHavilland Carrier, founder of the Carrier Company. http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa081797.htm He was born in New York, and lived and was based there for most of his life.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 10, 2008 - 05:40pm PT
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Witch Hunter, take a break.
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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Oct 10, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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So MK, why is the U.S. supporting the treasonous nations like Ukraine and Georgia? Or does your logic only apply to this country.
Good thing the founding fathers didn't follow this line of thinking. We all would be eating haggis and chips.
Also, by following your line of reasoning, Texas and California still belong to Mexico because the residents of those states never had the right to secede from Mexico.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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First L called me MK, now it's witch hunter. Some systemic problem, I guess.
How can Georgia and Ukraine be "treasonous"? They are internationally recognized nations with internationally recognized boundaries. There seem to be issues relating to their relationship with Russia, treatment of minority enclaves, etc, but Russia absorbed them in the 18th and 19th centuries, briefly let them go in 1918 - 21, and then officially let them go in 1991. There are undoubtedly Russian revanchists who wish to re-absorb the "Stans", or at least keep them on a short leash, as the recent war in Georgia showed. But they're independent countries, with the right to make their own decisions - however unlovely their actual governments.
Yes, much if not all of the present-day United States was stolen, by the standards of modern international law. Winner's "justice". Certainly including much of the southwest. In some cases, the U.S. could argue with a reasonably straight face that the land was "bought" from others, e.g. France or Spain, although it's doubtful if the latter owned or had the right to sell it. And treaties with various Indian nations, however one-sided and misapplied. But as has been said on several occasions, "It's ours and we stole it fair and square."
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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Oct 10, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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MH, sorry about the MK thing.
California was never bought, a bunch of gringos decided to secede from Mexico. That's precedence. And by your own admission, much of this country was stolen, hence the residents of those formally independent "nations" never had the choice to join the union. Following you line of thinking regarding the former Soviet Union, every state in our union has the right to secede.
Just show me one country that has retained it's original borders throughout history, just one.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 10, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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I like how a thread that started as an ironic post pointing out just how stupid McCain and the right-wing media's arguments are has digressed into something even more dumb.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 10, 2008 - 07:10pm PT
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So MK, why is the U.S. supporting the treasonous nations like Ukraine and Georgia? Or does your logic only apply to this country.
Good thing the founding fathers didn't follow this line of thinking. We all would be eating haggis and chips.
Also, by following your line of reasoning, Texas and California still belong to Mexico because the residents of those states never had the right to secede from Mexico.
uh... "treason" as it applies in the US is a term defined in the US constitution. Yes, it only applies to US states. Other nations have other definitions. Regardless of any of that, Ukraine and Georgia did no secede from anything. They were soviet republics, and the Soviet Union disbanded.
Texas and California were not US states prior to joining the US, so US law had no bearing on that.
Furthermore, a state or nation does not commit treason. A person does.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 10, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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I have committed treason on a number of occasions.
I treasoned on East Bay MUD lands a number of times to go swimming in Briones Reservoir, San Leandro Reservoir, etc.
Oh TREASON, I thought you meant trespass.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Oct 12, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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What a dunderhead!!
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Oct 12, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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BW...once again conservatives strikeout with political satire. Is Faux News trying to be like Comedy Central in hopes of gaining more viewers? Anyway, that video was a waste of 5 mins. of my precious life, thanks for nothing!
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 12, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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I think my I.Q. dropped after I finished that video.
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| Messages 1 - 49 of total 49 in this topic |
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