Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
|
Mr. sketchy,
Did you have any luck talking with the Forest Service?
Thanks again for handling this.
Peace,
Pete
(Karl & Doug, you may now resume)
|
|
Jordan Ramey
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Jul 21, 2008 - 03:39pm PT
|
Sooooooo.... Any further developments on this thing? Has anyone gotten any other word from the parks department on why it's suddenly illegal. Randy, any word?
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Jul 21, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
|
I wonder if a judge will understand that the statue mentioned was to prevent bungee-jumping from man-made objects like bridges. It was not intended to prevent rock climbing and happens to be vague enough to include equipment used to pull a car out of a ditch.
I think that this would get thrown out if it went to court. Too bad no one is planning on testing that premise.
Oh, and Doug is nuts. Let's hear a factual account of where asking a question got him out of a serious jam (meaning arrest, ticket, etc...) before believing any of that hard-to-read drivel.
Dave
|
|
Clod
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
|
My partner Redwreck started cluing me in to aid techniques last year on the bolts at Millard Falls. We happily climbed there a dozen times until the camp host showed up with a video camera and ordered us out. He taped us the whole time, was very peremptory and unpleasant, and I've heard similar tales from others.
I was recently in contact with Howard Okamoto, the USFS Recreation Officer for Angeles NF, River District, which includes Millard Falls. I asked simply, "May we climb at Millard?" Mr. Okamoto told me in no uncertain terms, "There is no climbing restriction at Millard Falls."
We had some back and forth, and he asked if we were putting up new bolts or any kind of hardware. I said, "None whatsoever. We climb clean or use existing bolts." When I alluded to the actions of the camp host, he offered to write an e-mail, and here it is verbatim:
Millard Falls is open to rock climbing provided that no new hardware is placed.
Howard S. Okamoto
Recreation Officer
R5, Angeles NF, Los Angeles River RD
12371 North Little Tujunga Canyon Road
San Fernando, CA 91342
818-899-1900 ext 229
hokamoto@fs.fed.us
This guy has been absolutely professional, amiable and open throughout our correspondence, which I hope anyone climbing at Millard would take into account. Be courteous to FS personnel, don't put in any more bolts, and politely cite Mr. Okamoto when challenged. The question of replacing manky bolts was not specifically addressed, but I suppose it could be if it became a real issue, and were framed in terms of safety.
My guess is the "ranger" often referred to in this thread is really just the camp host: not law enforcement, not even a ranger, but just a trailer dweller in a USFS shirt carrying a video camera. He's apparently taken it on himself to set forest policy because he just DOESN'T LIKE CLIMBING. As he told us indignantly while rolling tape, "But there are children here! It's just common sense!" Obviously, rather than scandalizing them with our recklessness, we should cede the entire Angeles NF to the children, after we pad all the edges, remove the predators, and install potties and drinking fountains every 500 feet.
Like other USFS personnel, he might have interpreted the closure of Williamson as applying to the entire Angeles NF. Maybe because Millard/Dawn Mine sees a lot of clueless urban traffic, and he has to deal with so much stupidity, he has become a little sour in the process. In any case, we will behave with absolute civility towards him, but we will familiarize him with Mr. Okamoto's statement.
And we will climb at Millard Falls.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
|
nice on ya Clod
|
|
PhotogEC
climber
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2009 - 10:24am PT
|
First off, a big thank you to Clod, whose legwork on contacting Mr. Okamoto saved me and my partner some grief yesterday.
My buddy and I went up to Millard Falls yesterday to do one of the bolt ladders. On our way past the "camp host's" RV, he saw us with our gear and told us that climbing was illegal, and he'd be up in ten minutes. We said "thank you" and proceeded on.
Now, having read this thread, we had come prepared: I had printed out Clod's post, pared down to the immediately relevant information around the direct conversation with Mr. Okamoto, with anything remotely derogatory or condescending about the host removed.
We got up to the falls and began the climb up the left bolt ladder. A few minutes later, sure enough, he showed up with his camera, telling us that "climbing on federal land is illegal. I have all the evidence I need right here on video."
My buddy told him we have something for him to read, handed him the prepared printout, and very politely suggested that he call Mr. Okamoto. Which he did, on the spot. A short conversation ensued--we could hear him complaining about climbers putting stuff up all over the place and it being an eyesore.
However, he hung up and just walked away. Not another word to us.
When we left, a quarter of the way down the trail, we found my printout under a small rock, so I picked it up for future use. Plus, I didn't want the guy to pop us for littering.
So, for anyone else heading up there:
1. Print out the appropriate excerpt of Clod's post, above, or otherwise have Mr. Okamoto's contact information readily available.
2. Be courteous, respectful and polite. No need to get in this guy's face. While he can't stop you from climbing (as long as you're not placing new bolts), he CAN cite you for intimidating/threatening a park employee, which IS illegal and is posted in several places.
3. Be careful about placing new hardware up there... it looks like a number of new hangers have been added outside of the existing older lines. This appears to be their main beef with climbers.
Now, my only question is... what is he doing with all of those videos? Or do I not want to know...?
|
|
Clod
climber
Frogtown, LA, CA
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2009 - 03:05am PT
|
PhotogEC, thanks for the shout. Just got back from traveling.
Smoothly and courteously handled. Good work!
Honestly, I sort of feel for the guy, with all the cack he must put up with. But he just got way off track with this one.
As for what he does with the videos--that is a great question. I'd like to remain a couple of pitches above public speculation.
|
|
Tfish
Sport climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
I did the left bolt ladder a few months ago. And we tried about a month ago and that old bastard camp host shut us down. I wish I would have read this before. Now this place is closed for awhile cuz of that stupid station fire.
|
|
wildlife
Boulder climber
janesville wi
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
|
hello all im that usfs camphost at millard ...just some clarification . at millard prior to all of this i had few complaints from hikers with children that was up to the millard waterfalls , concerned about climbers falling / knocking debris down on there children playing in water in front of falls . i called usfs dispatch which checked with others and told me to tell climbers it is not permitted . plus can not pound in new cleats or what ever you call them . area as of now is closed from fire . but up to falls its filled with new and old climbing gear . my point its a eyesore to nature . alot of visitors take pic of naturally falls .now its a eyesore .. anyhow i volunteer only and go by what im told ie usfs . since howard o. says its okay i havent stopped anyone [ even though others in usfs said no ] .. i have nothing against climbers . i try mostly trying to keep millard natural and clean of grafiti / diapers /trash etc etc etc ..im told to enform visitors of usfs rules . im against those who trash forest /carve up trees /take snakes salamanders , newts . spray paint millard up etc etc ..anyhow hopefully next spring will be open at earliest . lonnie
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
|
i had few complaints from hikers with children that was up to the millard waterfalls ,
Do you speak Spanish? Korean?
Because if you don't
you made that up.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 26, 2009 - 12:42am PT
|
TGT,
What a brilliant way to make friends with others, representing the climbing community!
You've no idea what it is like to walk a mile in another's shoes, unless you've worn them.
In the meantime, you've managed to smear our community with your unwarranted statement against a public servant. Who, by the way, did not rise to the bait of all of the tasteless comments made from the bravery of anonymity, against this host. Shows the guy has more class than a lot of us. (but why is that not a surprise?)
|
|
Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
|
|
|
Nov 26, 2009 - 02:20am PT
|
Kindness is a good thing. I think that if there is an opportunity to work towards peace with any officials we should take it. We should be grateful for the good that the officials do that try to preserve natural beautify. We should show them that as climbers, we care about keeping areas clean, having a minimum impact to the environment and our desire to be safe, (most of us use ropes because we want to be safe.) I have had bad experiences with rangers and I am glad when we may have a chance to peacefully talk things out.
Thank you Lonnie for talking with us. I hope that we will all be able to understand each other better and realize that we have common goals.
|
|
PhotogEC
climber
In front of my computer
|
|
|
Dec 15, 2009 - 08:50am PT
|
I concur with Don't Let Go & Ken M.
Regardless of any interactions others have had with him, our encounter with Lonnie was polite and respectful on both sides. If he was working under the misunderstanding that climbing wasn't allowed, he listened to me and my buddy and didn't hassle us once he cleared things up with Mr. Okamoto.
Lonnie--if you're still following this, I've gotta give you props for doing a great job keeping Millard clear of litter, graffiti and the like, and I fully appreciate your desire to keep nature natural.
Cheers,
Eric
|
|
Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
|
|
|
Dec 15, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
|
It's not a troll. This sort of thing happens all over. For example, I went to go ice climbing at Big Four Ice Caves near Verlot, Washington. The camp host saw us and told us to come down that climbing wasn't allowed. I politely explained to him that it was allowed, as long as proper safety equipment was used (which we had). He backed down and let us climb.
The people who enforce rules all feel that they are justified in creating rules to help maintain safety, and orderliness. It's "administrative" rulemaking. We as climbers can maintain access by insisting that rangers enforce statutory rules.
Rangers and camp hosts are not trying to ruin your day because you are a climber. Don't try to ruin theirs. Explain to them that you are familiar with the law, but also with their concerns. Be polite.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!