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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 14, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Need some input from San Gabriel valley climbers on this one. My climbing partner and I have spent the last couple of years aiding old bolt ladders in Millard Canyon (near the waterfall).
We've set up a haul, practiced lower outs, etc.
I was stopped by the ranger yesterday and told that it was illegal to climb and that if he saw me, I would receive a pricey ticket.
I called the Forest Service today and discovered that climbing is indeed, illegal in the Angeles National Forest. Is this all related to the Williamson Rock closure? Apparently, Altadena Search & Rescue are the only folks allowed to use ropes and such gear to ascend rocks. Permits are not available to anyone else.
Anyone else run into this issue?
Peace,
Pete
(edit for spelling/grammar)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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Have your lawyer contact them to ask if "climbing" is outlawed or just the use of safety equipment.
That should get them thinking.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:00pm PT
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heh, then if gear is outlawed, then Altadena SAR will have a reason for going there again.
hhahaha
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Sewelly,
Talked to someone at the San Gabriel River station, can't remember her name. She said climbing was okay in Eaton Canyon, but not in Angeles National Forest. I got tooled walking through the campground. Ranger claimed it was a safety issue. Followed me all the way to the Falls. I sat ther for a good hour- at leats he picked up some trash.
-Pete
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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Time to sting the Angeles National Forest and give them some bad press! They seem to be spending a lot of $$$ on new building
projects these days...any connection?
Need to get ANF rangers on video saying 'Sorry No Climbers!'
and post it on Youtube. Then email the link to every news
agency you can think of!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:29pm PT
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I called.... I asked if climbing was indeed illegal in the ANF... the lady transfered me to her boss... he said, "it is illegal to do any technical climbing or use any equipment designed for climbing in the ANF".
I asked him for the statute that would show the ban.... he say, " the only statute I need is what them boys did on the South Face of Half Dome. That ain't happening in my forest," and then he hung up......
(ok... that was total bullshiit... I never called)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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LOL LOL
Troublemaker!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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New leadership & personality conflicts at the top at ANF?
what caused such a big shakeup of people?
--from their web page:Feb 14,2008
Forest Supervisor Jody Noiron has named L’Tanga Watson, David R. Conklin, Lisa Northrop and Marty Dumpis to leadership positions for the Angeles National Forest. Each replaces a key department head that either retired or moved on to another position in the agency
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
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Eliminating all the climbing regulations in the US is amusingly easy. There is no prevailing law authority for climbing regulations beyond the prevailing laws applying impartially to all people for universal human actions.
If climbing is a lawful human action anywhere in the federal jurisdiction, it is lawful everywhere in the federal jurisdiction, for the reason it is lawful anywhere, by superior law. If you perceive a reason it is not lawful, ask yourself if the reason does not constitute a verifiably valid different action such as harassing a nesting falcon (within 100 feet), within PREVAILING law, not within inferior law and rhetorical illusions.
As long as there is no national climbers organization which does that for climbers, as its primary reason for existence, and conveys the effecting knowledge to climbers, these type problems are perpetual and lucrative budget excuses for many inherently corrupt government agencies, and perpetual donation excuses for the inherently corrupt American Alpine Club, Access Fund and all the other environmentalist "climber" or "access" local organizations.
Laughably gullible climbers and equipment companies keep dumping their money into those scam organizations for the same reason laughably gullible gun owners keep dumping their money into the National Rifle Association, and never ask the obvious questions.
As long as the only climbers attempting to convey the knowledge of how to eliminate climbing regulations are rhetorically attacked or denigrated by the aforementioned and their gullible supporters serving their money income above the rights of climbers, those with the knowledge are laughing and enjoying the show.
Enjoy the show.
In the future the American climbers who keep believing the government, AmerAC, Access Fund, and the established climbing magazines, instead of questioning them, are going to be described as the dumbest, most laughably gullible sorts of climbing history. The Europeans are currently laughing at the dumb American climbers under fiefdom rulers.
Let me know if any significant group of climbers ever seriously wants to solve the problem. The offer has been made for 25 years. But the Soviet people were fooled into asking no questions for 70 years, so the US climbers can claim a lesser level of unmitigated stupidity.
DougBuchanan.com
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Uh oh, lets' not get Doug started...
Seriously though, if climbing is illegal in the ANF, what about that big rock with lots of routes on it called Williamson Rock that, until a recent closure due to a pending environmental review, was perfectly legal. What about Horse Flats? Does that also mean that canyoneering is also illegal since it often requires equipment?
I suspect that the suspension of climbing at Williamson has been misinterpreted and handed down as a climbing ban. I'm not up on the C.F.R. or U.S.C., but I suspect if they're going to prohibit a recreational activity on recreational land, there would be a more official pronouncement of that ban.
The unfortunate truth is that land managers often find it easier to simply ban an activity rather than attempt to regulate it, particularly where they perceive liability issues. It may be they're now applying the same logic to environmental issues.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:33pm PT
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It is legal to rockclimb in the ANF unless posted otherwise.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
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http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/maps/brochures/forest_rules.pdf
"Additional rules may be established at individual developed
sites where determined necessary by the Regional Forester or the
Forest Supervisor.
Such rules will be established by an order that is posted in such
locations and manner as to reasonably bring the prohibition to
the attention of the public."
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 03:59pm PT
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Thanks everyone for the input. Russ, this is the number I called:
Los Angeles River Ranger District
12371 N. Little Tujunga Canyon Road
San Fernando, CA 91342
Mike McIntyre, District Ranger
(818)899-1900
Rokjox, I've got no problem writing letter, civil disobedience, et al. I will continue to post anything other info I get.
I personally happen to enjoy the crappy bolts ladders by the Falls. I was working on "fixing" up the second route that tops out over the falls. Thought I was helping out the climbing community.
Peace,
Pete
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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FYI- There is no visible signage in the Millard Canyon Campground or on the trail. I saw nothing about climbing prohibitions. Only a flyer about illegal fireworks.
-Pete
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 14, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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I laughed robustly.
"MOST IMPORTANTLY", curious that I am, using Kofi's reasoning, I discovered the link -- Anna = Obama = Osama. "Took quite awhile for that truth to be revealed." Now therefore you can use that highly useful knowledge.
Fat Dad used some of the identical, word for word phrases used for the last several decades to perpetuate the problem rather than solve the problem.
"...land managers often find it easier to simply ban an activity rather than attempt to regulate it,..."
If you wanted to solve the problem rather than perpetuate it at great cost of climber money and time, would you not ask precisely what, in exact words, needed to be banned or regulated, then merely find those words in the prevailing law, if they exist in prevailing law?
They do not exist in prevailing law. Climbing is lawful. There is no lawful "regulation" of "climbing". Destroying tangible property of significant public value is not lawful, etceteras, whether done while climbing or sitting in a lawn chair. It is not a "climbing" regulation.
If you are too lazy to exercise that simple process, or use an even more efficient process readily available to you, your current actions acquiesce to the rule of ever-changing personalities with government bureaucrat jobs, a fool's quest for the entertainment of SuperTopo fans.
Enjoy the show of the lazy fools.
Doug
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 05:21pm PT
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They may have THEIR catch-all language, but there is always the eleventh commandment;
("Thou shalt not get caught!")
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 05:47pm PT
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Doug,
I am not quoting any law or perpetuating anything, I'm merely repeating what appears to be the established policy of land managers. However, I do agree with you that the failure to challenge those policies often results in they're being adopted by the powers that be.
The problem with challenging these policies, however, is that you need someone either brave or foolish enough to serve as a test plaintiff. That person also needs to be assured that they'll have both the competent representation and the financial backing to support that challenge. Either one of those tasks can be a challenge and absent the support of a non-profit or advocacy group you're probably not going to get that far. You'll probably just come off to the court as some anti-social, anti-government kook like the Unibomber.
Easy to point the finger at others. Much harder to step up and effectively back up those words with action.
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Jordan Ramey
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
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http://mountainproject.com/v/california/los_angeles_county/angeles_national_forest/106138318
Here is a bunch of info on climbing in millard canyon. I even took pictures of the entrance signs and no where does it say that you can't climb there. I've seen lots of people practicing aiding this bolt ladder next to the falls. Almost all the bolts are bomber and many were replaced in the last 5 years from old 1/4"ers
So, does anyone know exactly who we should call that is actually in charge and can give real answers? Has anyone gotten any real responses on this issue?
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 14, 2008 - 06:29pm PT
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This thread is a troll. It's ok to climb, but you can't use ropes?????wtf kind of law would that be? So bouldering's still ok? I can go to horse flats and boulder, but not top-rope? LOL.
No more climbing at the Tunnel or Spring Crags, or how 'bout Tripper Jacks new spot?...anyone told him? LOL.
Can I use a rope to climb Baldy Bowl in winter, but must only climb snow and not touch rock?
Rappelling's ok though? 'cause it's going down not up? LOL.
I'm not going to call anyone. If the USFS is going to ban a popular activity that has been going on in the NF forever, then they need to make the public aware of the major change in rules. There is nothing on the their website about any climbing gear ban, the are no signs anywhere in the forest, and this thread is a troll.
Word.
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