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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 14, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Need some input from San Gabriel valley climbers on this one. My climbing partner and I have spent the last couple of years aiding old bolt ladders in Millard Canyon (near the waterfall).
We've set up a haul, practiced lower outs, etc.
I was stopped by the ranger yesterday and told that it was illegal to climb and that if he saw me, I would receive a pricey ticket.
I called the Forest Service today and discovered that climbing is indeed, illegal in the Angeles National Forest. Is this all related to the Williamson Rock closure? Apparently, Altadena Search & Rescue are the only folks allowed to use ropes and such gear to ascend rocks. Permits are not available to anyone else.
Anyone else run into this issue?
Peace,
Pete
(edit for spelling/grammar)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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Have your lawyer contact them to ask if "climbing" is outlawed or just the use of safety equipment.
That should get them thinking.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:00pm PT
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heh, then if gear is outlawed, then Altadena SAR will have a reason for going there again.
hhahaha
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Sewelly,
Talked to someone at the San Gabriel River station, can't remember her name. She said climbing was okay in Eaton Canyon, but not in Angeles National Forest. I got tooled walking through the campground. Ranger claimed it was a safety issue. Followed me all the way to the Falls. I sat ther for a good hour- at leats he picked up some trash.
-Pete
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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Time to sting the Angeles National Forest and give them some bad press! They seem to be spending a lot of $$$ on new building
projects these days...any connection?
Need to get ANF rangers on video saying 'Sorry No Climbers!'
and post it on Youtube. Then email the link to every news
agency you can think of!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:29pm PT
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I called.... I asked if climbing was indeed illegal in the ANF... the lady transfered me to her boss... he said, "it is illegal to do any technical climbing or use any equipment designed for climbing in the ANF".
I asked him for the statute that would show the ban.... he say, " the only statute I need is what them boys did on the South Face of Half Dome. That ain't happening in my forest," and then he hung up......
(ok... that was total bullshiit... I never called)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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LOL LOL
Troublemaker!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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New leadership & personality conflicts at the top at ANF?
what caused such a big shakeup of people?
--from their web page:Feb 14,2008
Forest Supervisor Jody Noiron has named L’Tanga Watson, David R. Conklin, Lisa Northrop and Marty Dumpis to leadership positions for the Angeles National Forest. Each replaces a key department head that either retired or moved on to another position in the agency
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
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Eliminating all the climbing regulations in the US is amusingly easy. There is no prevailing law authority for climbing regulations beyond the prevailing laws applying impartially to all people for universal human actions.
If climbing is a lawful human action anywhere in the federal jurisdiction, it is lawful everywhere in the federal jurisdiction, for the reason it is lawful anywhere, by superior law. If you perceive a reason it is not lawful, ask yourself if the reason does not constitute a verifiably valid different action such as harassing a nesting falcon (within 100 feet), within PREVAILING law, not within inferior law and rhetorical illusions.
As long as there is no national climbers organization which does that for climbers, as its primary reason for existence, and conveys the effecting knowledge to climbers, these type problems are perpetual and lucrative budget excuses for many inherently corrupt government agencies, and perpetual donation excuses for the inherently corrupt American Alpine Club, Access Fund and all the other environmentalist "climber" or "access" local organizations.
Laughably gullible climbers and equipment companies keep dumping their money into those scam organizations for the same reason laughably gullible gun owners keep dumping their money into the National Rifle Association, and never ask the obvious questions.
As long as the only climbers attempting to convey the knowledge of how to eliminate climbing regulations are rhetorically attacked or denigrated by the aforementioned and their gullible supporters serving their money income above the rights of climbers, those with the knowledge are laughing and enjoying the show.
Enjoy the show.
In the future the American climbers who keep believing the government, AmerAC, Access Fund, and the established climbing magazines, instead of questioning them, are going to be described as the dumbest, most laughably gullible sorts of climbing history. The Europeans are currently laughing at the dumb American climbers under fiefdom rulers.
Let me know if any significant group of climbers ever seriously wants to solve the problem. The offer has been made for 25 years. But the Soviet people were fooled into asking no questions for 70 years, so the US climbers can claim a lesser level of unmitigated stupidity.
DougBuchanan.com
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Uh oh, lets' not get Doug started...
Seriously though, if climbing is illegal in the ANF, what about that big rock with lots of routes on it called Williamson Rock that, until a recent closure due to a pending environmental review, was perfectly legal. What about Horse Flats? Does that also mean that canyoneering is also illegal since it often requires equipment?
I suspect that the suspension of climbing at Williamson has been misinterpreted and handed down as a climbing ban. I'm not up on the C.F.R. or U.S.C., but I suspect if they're going to prohibit a recreational activity on recreational land, there would be a more official pronouncement of that ban.
The unfortunate truth is that land managers often find it easier to simply ban an activity rather than attempt to regulate it, particularly where they perceive liability issues. It may be they're now applying the same logic to environmental issues.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:33pm PT
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It is legal to rockclimb in the ANF unless posted otherwise.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
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http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/maps/brochures/forest_rules.pdf
"Additional rules may be established at individual developed
sites where determined necessary by the Regional Forester or the
Forest Supervisor.
Such rules will be established by an order that is posted in such
locations and manner as to reasonably bring the prohibition to
the attention of the public."
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 03:59pm PT
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Thanks everyone for the input. Russ, this is the number I called:
Los Angeles River Ranger District
12371 N. Little Tujunga Canyon Road
San Fernando, CA 91342
Mike McIntyre, District Ranger
(818)899-1900
Rokjox, I've got no problem writing letter, civil disobedience, et al. I will continue to post anything other info I get.
I personally happen to enjoy the crappy bolts ladders by the Falls. I was working on "fixing" up the second route that tops out over the falls. Thought I was helping out the climbing community.
Peace,
Pete
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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FYI- There is no visible signage in the Millard Canyon Campground or on the trail. I saw nothing about climbing prohibitions. Only a flyer about illegal fireworks.
-Pete
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 14, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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I laughed robustly.
"MOST IMPORTANTLY", curious that I am, using Kofi's reasoning, I discovered the link -- Anna = Obama = Osama. "Took quite awhile for that truth to be revealed." Now therefore you can use that highly useful knowledge.
Fat Dad used some of the identical, word for word phrases used for the last several decades to perpetuate the problem rather than solve the problem.
"...land managers often find it easier to simply ban an activity rather than attempt to regulate it,..."
If you wanted to solve the problem rather than perpetuate it at great cost of climber money and time, would you not ask precisely what, in exact words, needed to be banned or regulated, then merely find those words in the prevailing law, if they exist in prevailing law?
They do not exist in prevailing law. Climbing is lawful. There is no lawful "regulation" of "climbing". Destroying tangible property of significant public value is not lawful, etceteras, whether done while climbing or sitting in a lawn chair. It is not a "climbing" regulation.
If you are too lazy to exercise that simple process, or use an even more efficient process readily available to you, your current actions acquiesce to the rule of ever-changing personalities with government bureaucrat jobs, a fool's quest for the entertainment of SuperTopo fans.
Enjoy the show of the lazy fools.
Doug
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 05:21pm PT
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They may have THEIR catch-all language, but there is always the eleventh commandment;
("Thou shalt not get caught!")
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 05:47pm PT
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Doug,
I am not quoting any law or perpetuating anything, I'm merely repeating what appears to be the established policy of land managers. However, I do agree with you that the failure to challenge those policies often results in they're being adopted by the powers that be.
The problem with challenging these policies, however, is that you need someone either brave or foolish enough to serve as a test plaintiff. That person also needs to be assured that they'll have both the competent representation and the financial backing to support that challenge. Either one of those tasks can be a challenge and absent the support of a non-profit or advocacy group you're probably not going to get that far. You'll probably just come off to the court as some anti-social, anti-government kook like the Unibomber.
Easy to point the finger at others. Much harder to step up and effectively back up those words with action.
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Jordan Ramey
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
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http://mountainproject.com/v/california/los_angeles_county/angeles_national_forest/106138318
Here is a bunch of info on climbing in millard canyon. I even took pictures of the entrance signs and no where does it say that you can't climb there. I've seen lots of people practicing aiding this bolt ladder next to the falls. Almost all the bolts are bomber and many were replaced in the last 5 years from old 1/4"ers
So, does anyone know exactly who we should call that is actually in charge and can give real answers? Has anyone gotten any real responses on this issue?
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 14, 2008 - 06:29pm PT
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This thread is a troll. It's ok to climb, but you can't use ropes?????wtf kind of law would that be? So bouldering's still ok? I can go to horse flats and boulder, but not top-rope? LOL.
No more climbing at the Tunnel or Spring Crags, or how 'bout Tripper Jacks new spot?...anyone told him? LOL.
Can I use a rope to climb Baldy Bowl in winter, but must only climb snow and not touch rock?
Rappelling's ok though? 'cause it's going down not up? LOL.
I'm not going to call anyone. If the USFS is going to ban a popular activity that has been going on in the NF forever, then they need to make the public aware of the major change in rules. There is nothing on the their website about any climbing gear ban, the are no signs anywhere in the forest, and this thread is a troll.
Word.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 06:37pm PT
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I agree with Rincon. It is a mistake to start contacting all the various managers and make this an issue. Let it be.
Kris Solem
Monrovia CA
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 14, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
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It is perfectly legal to climb in the ANF. The only exceptions are areas that are affected by specific closures that have been "legally" imposed (e.g.: Williamson Rock closure).
Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists.
In the future, kindly tell the ranger they are misinformed and to talk to a supervisor before writing a ticket for a legal activity. Please get a name of this ranger so we can bring this to the attention of higher ups. If you actually are ticketed, I'd like to know and would be happy to discuss it/advise and assist you.
RVogel
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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Jul 14, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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In an agreement put together some years ago, climbing is not illegal. Placing bolts is. The ANF considers this "littering on federal property". Climbing is permitted in the canyon described. Using the bolts in situ is permitted. Placing new bolts is not. Pushing the issue or flooding the FS office with calls will probably not be helpful for climbers overall.
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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Well folks, it wasn't a troll. Two different forrest service people told me the same thing, "No Climbing." I posted it on the Taco to get input from the climbing community which I respect. I am happy to let the issue die off now.
But, who will help me pay the fine when I get the ticket?
Thanks for wrapping your collective minds around this one.
Peace,
Pete
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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Jul 14, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
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More info:
http://www.acfnewsource.org/environment/bolt_or_not.html
From inside this link:
Administered by the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, the U.S. Forest Service oversees land use in U.S. national forests. In 1998 the Forest Service banned bolting and motorized drills.
Peace,
Barbarian
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whatmeworry
Mountain climber
Pasadena, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
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Someone forgot to tell all the canyoneers in the San Gabes that placing bolts is illegal. There are huge numbers of new bolts in many of the popular canyons.
If bolts are littering then the ANF LEOs should focus on the San Gabriel River on any weekend. With the # of dirty diapers and other trash left by forest visitors we could pay for the Yellow Legged Mountain Frog survey work that has kept Williamson Rock closed for 2+ years now and has been postponed due to budget issues.....
http://williamsonrock.org/blog/
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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This from Barbarian's link:
"In 1998 Forest Services had imposed a similar ban on new bolting and was calling for the removal of existing bolts. According to the compromise, climbers can use and replace existing bolts but still cannot drill new bolts into the rock on Forest Service property."
Does this imply all Forest Service property through out the US?
Or just pertain to JT?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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Are you guys sure this isn't RC.com? So much outright misinformation. And take the attitudes (and false indignation) back to pre-school.
Placing bolts is NOT illegal in the ANF. Climbing is NOT illegal in the ANF.
Yes, if you get ticketed, send me an email. But, be Polite and Courteous and you will probably sort things out without getting one. The ranger may be misinformed, but if you act like a jerk, this doesn't put a good light on climbers or help your case if you get cited. I've defended other wrongfully accused (but polite) climbers.
[Edited to add: the link about bolting in Josh (and the tidbit about FS Rulemaking) has no bearing on the ANF and is so out of context that you can be excused for being confused.]
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apogee
climber
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Jul 15, 2008 - 01:51am PT
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Randy- thank you for the voice of reason and rationality.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 15, 2008 - 06:06am PT
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Fad Dad and colleagues of the summits.....
Useful knowledge for many things....
If you remain as ignorant as you reveal today, you will be progressively more cowed and victimized by government dolts, inherent to the effects of power. Your option is to progressively learn more knowledge, or grovel lower tomorrow.
Your choice. The competition is learning more knowledge.
In our nation, as opposed to Saudi Arabia and others, government personnel administer written law, already written in reviewable words on paper, not their personal whims like the Saudi king.
There is no law that requires a person to be polite and courteous to the stinking government thugs with police titles. In fact, the prevailing law, not the Park Service inferior laws, specifically grants greater liberties in describing the stinking government swine as swine and worse, than describing fellow citizens. If there were any law requiring a person to be polite and courteous to Forest Service thugs and malicious court judges, the common person could read the law and perform its written requirements so he could not be cited or jailed for not being ENOUGH polite and courteous.
The written law in the US serves all people equally, by law, not those who flatter Hitler and his Gestapo above those who criticize him and his thugs.
The more polite and courteous you are to the Forest Service Gestapo, the more psychological reinforcement they get for issuing more lucrative citations to cowed prey, for the same reason the Nazi Gestapo did the same thing. That is why the prevailing common law was established to allow stronger criticism of government scum, by judges who understood the value of the foregoing to protect their own offspring from that dangerous, known trend inherent to power.
"Established policy of land managers" is not written law. There is no lawful demand to obey "established policy of land managers". Ignorant fools obey it. It cannot be successfully enforced against a person with simple knowledge of what law is and how it functions.
Climbers have uniquely lost their rights more than other social sectors because they have been most easily cowed into obeying rhetorical illusions because they ask no questions when their idiot organization leaders keep telling them that they better obey established policy of land managers or else.
If you are not brave enough to serve as a test plaintiff for your rights, facing something so inconsequential as fines or jail, as is the case with the worthless American climbers, every American soldier in every war fighting for your rights was a fool.
BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A PLAINTIVE OR RISK JAIL. That process is what fundamentally repugnant lawyers fooled you into perceiving as your only option. Law schools only teach students how to be the most dishonest people in the world, fooling the most unquestioning people in the world.
Amusingly, you cannot understand the following words, even if you perceive these words to be a challenge to your thinking ability, and read them slowly, with a dictionary if you need one. You need only state, in a particular, short and efficient format requiring too much description for this forum comment, that you seek to obey the law, and need to be informed of the law so that you can obey it, and then ask, in a particular format, what the law is in regard to your proposed actions.
Done properly, no climbing regulations in the US remain in effect, and the government will hire extra personnel to make sure that no climber (climbing) is bothered by any government personnel for fear that an uninformed ranger issues a citation that gets his supervisor immediately fired and jailed without legal recourse.
Until you easily learn the KNOWLEDGE of what law is and how it functions in human minds, that which no lawyer is ever taught, you will gullibly believe that law is whatever some predator lawyer, judge, bureaucrat, AmerAC leader or idiot minion tells you is "law".
I have uploaded information on that process format many places, many times, for my amusement with the responses from self-induce ignorant people who mindlessly believe, rather than question, the lies they are told by TITLED and CREDENTIALED people, like self-serving lawyers, government dolts, American Alpine Club leaders, Access Fund leaders and their unquestioning minions.
Stop believing the adults. What they tell you is to maintain their power over you. Question them, with real questions, and write their answers, until you learn the questions that turn their minds against their own contradictions.
Stop pissing and moaning about somebody not telling you what you want to know in words that you can understand without having to think or offer anything in return (get something for nothing), in sound byte forums. Consider doing precisely what I suggest, that is your access to the knowledge... START ASKING QUESTIONS. ANSWER THEM. If you wish to do so.
If you do so, you will soon enough laugh yourself to tears at how long you were fooled by the adults who believed the lies of adults to maintain their stagnating ignorance of power above the advancing knowledge of reasoning.
Laughing myself to tears at the moment. The humans on Earth are the best comedy in the realm.
DougBuchanan.com
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 15, 2008 - 09:05am PT
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After reading about 10 lines of that sewage I've come to the conclusion that you must be very goodly edjumicated.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 15, 2008 - 10:52am PT
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Doug, you seem to be so wrapped up in your own rhetoric that you've failed to realize the reality. Why do you talk circles when just as easily you could (by your own testimony) give valid, clear answers to the questions being asked. Why muddle the subject more.
I could very legally be an a$$hole to you, but don't you think treating someone politely would result in a better person to person interface?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:02am PT
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"The humans on Earth are the best comedy in the realm. "
Your right, and as far as I can tell you are the headlining act.
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justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:08am PT
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The rangers were wrong. Best to just smile and nod and come back a different day.
Randy was on spot. I'll re-post for anyone who missed it the first two times.
QUOTE: "Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists.
In the future, kindly tell the ranger they are misinformed and to talk to a supervisor before writing a ticket for a legal activity. Please get a name of this ranger so we can bring this to the attention of higher ups. If you actually are ticketed, I'd like to know and would be happy to discuss it/advise and assist you.
RVogel"
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:10am PT
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Doug, when you make a long post like that, do you type it up from scratch each time? Or do you have a computer program that generates meaningless text?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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"QUOTE: "Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists."
Most districts are lightly staffed, so even "just one" misinformed ranger IS a big issue. We will keep running into that "just one" ranger again and again.
"The rangers were wrong. Best to just smile and nod and come back a different day."
Yes, if you are tooled that's all you can do, smile and let them ruin your whole day. That's why we should fix this problem now.
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2008 - 01:50pm PT
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Folks,
I received a fax from the San Gabriel River Station. I would be happy to provide it to anyone who would like it.
----------------------------------------------
"Pursuant to Title 36 of Federal Regulations, Section 261.50(b) the following acts are prohibited within any National Forest within the Pacific Southwest region:
Being on the road in possession of any equipment designed for, used for, or intended to be used for the suspension, jumping, or retrieval of any person or object from any road, bridge, or appurtenance thereof. 36 CFR 261.54(e)
Equipment associated with the prohibited activity includes but is not limited to: bungee, rubber, nylon shock, or otherwise elasticized cords, ropes, straps, webbing, harnesses, snatch pulley blocks, tackle, chains, carabiners, ascent or descent control devices, ankle or body braces capable of being readily attached to any suspension device and /or any vehicle, winch, or animal.
Any Federal, State, or local officer, or member of an organized rescue or fire-fighting force in the performance of an official duty is specifically exmepted from this order.
Done at San Francisco, California, This 28th day of June, 1991.
Violation of this prohibition is punishable by a fine of not more than $5,000.00 or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both (16 USC 551, 18 USC 3559 and 3571.
------------
This is the reason I was told climbing is not legal. I think it's a bit of a stretch.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 15, 2008 - 02:23pm PT
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That rock climbing is just a cover.
As soon as the ranger leaves we all start jumping from bridges!
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scuffy b
climber
watching the flytrap
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Jul 15, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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That reg doesn't say anything about climbing.
You can't be on the road with equipment.
Forget the climbing, you can be cited for possession of webbing!!
EDIT: don't carry your keys on a locking carabiner, either.
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sred
Trad climber
California
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Jul 15, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Fortunately, a lot of the SoCal climbing is in State Parks (e.g. Stoney Point, Malibu Creek), but wouldn’t that provision also eliminate climbing in Tahquitz -- and Williamson (if it ever reopens). Seems like the rangers of the Angeles and San Bernardino National Forests would have a hard time convincing anyone that they EVER interpreted that provision as something against climbing since it has been on the books for more than 15 years and Williamson was never closed for that reason. I betcha they don't close Tahquitz anytime soon!
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 15, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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JohnBoy and admirable colleagues.....
The intellectually primitive status of humans, especially climbers and government folks, is predicated on their trained reaction AGAINST any offer of useful new knowledge.
They prefer to hear what they already know, short sound bytes of old knowledge. What they already know is comfortable to their minds, by design. What they do not know requires THINKING, which angers ignorant lazy people.
Because people who offer climbers useful knowledge are denigrated about 30 to 1, they soon stop offering it, much to the amusement of the observers.
That process is why wars still rage, climbing restrictions still hassle climbers, and you will be paying much more for gasoline.
The American Alpine Club, Access Fund and government dolts have discovered that ignorant climbers will keep on sending money for short sound byte illusions of no value to climbers. Knowledge is the death of power, so power-based organization will not touch it.
It is easy to simply ignore these long comments. Ignorance is always initially easier, by design.
JohnBoy.... you ask why I do not "give valid, clear answers to the questions being asked".
To the extent of my available time I accurately answer every question I ever encounter, and vastly more that I ask, which is how the human mind learns new knowledge. I can verify every answer against all subsequent questions. I have only encountered about 3 so far on SuperTopo, that I did not ask. I accurately answered each.
What are your questions?
Wisely answer your own questions until you reach one of substance, for what you will therefore learn.
If an answer requires many words, to be a useful answer, such as how airplanes fly or how to eliminate illogical climbing regulations, and you will accept only a few words, you will be left ignorant.
You cannot get something for nothing, or more for less, by design.
If knowledge comes with words you consider to be an insult, that is an inconsequential cost of the knowledge. A wise person cannot possibly be insulted or offended.
If you describe a malicious Park Service idiot as a good and intelligent fellow climber, your mind will not recognize a good and intelligent fellow climber when you encounter one, by design. You train your mind by the words you use. That is why Bush's mind knows no option but to try to kill his way to national success, over thousands of dead bodies whose friends and relatives will retaliate and ultimately destroy the US, by imperative.
The equally mental midget Forest Service and Park Service thugs have discovered that climbers are so laughably ignorant and gullible that when they ask to see the regulations that restrict them, the government dolts can give them just any piece of paper with any regulation-sounding words, and keep on citing and fining climbers who just keep on paying the fines and complaining about the regulations not being related to the citations.
The National Park Service Pigs have formally sent the Alaskan Alpine Club automobile and hotel regulations for what were supposed to be climbing regulations, to justify harassing climbers, much to my amusement with what the pitiable Park Service dolts were teaching me about their intellectual void. They fool only fools, inherently first themselves.
The US government land managers have discovered that in a society of ignorant, cowed people, no law binds the government thugs, and their raw force prevails, as in every tyranny. Saddam was a classic example.
However, the government pigs are beset with a human mind which is highly vulnerable to its design.
Easily learn that design. With that knowledge, all the climbing regulations are easily eliminated.
You will learn nothing with statements. Start asking questions, primarily of YOURSELF, the named leaders of the American Alpine Club, Access Fund and the government dolts. Question the answers to learn how their minds created their obviously contradicted answers.
Or let me know when any significant organization of climbers would like the Alaskan Alpine Club to convey the process to eliminate climbing regulations. The Access Fund brags about having spent several million dollars from climbers, to produce what climbers still complain about, the ongoing climbing restrictions. The American Alpine Club has spent more. The local climbing "access" organizations have in sum spent more. When will the gullible American climbers figure out that they are still being taken to the metaphorical cleaners?
Until then, enjoy the comedy of those who perceive that those offering the knowledge are the comedy.
DougBuchanan.com
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 15, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
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Every few years, a misguided ranger (sometimes "self misguided") decides that climbing or bolting is illegal. When questioned, they invariably get out the CFR and try to find some reason why what you are doing is illegal. The section cited is not applicable at all.
Please email with the contact info of the people with whom you have been in communication so they can be straightened out.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 15, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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Go get 'em Randy! Randy saved me from a 16 year to life sentence in Bishop once..... He is the MAN!
(ok.... not 16 years, but I was in some trouble with the law... and he filleted them)
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 15, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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These f*#kers need to be tossed out on their asses - they are suppose to be working FOR us, not AGAINST us. We pay them, not the other way around. King George the 3rd was tossed out hundreds of years ago, we don't need replacement kings doing it to us all unlubricated like this.
Instead, what they do is try to criminalize normal activities so that they can control. Thats what they want, CONTROL. Don't give in to the pricks.
1 in 100 Americans is in jail right now, and new laws, many bogus ones like this bullsh#t, are being passed daily. Stop the craziness where ya can boyz!
Live free or die.
ps, Randy had a better response than I did.
"
QUOTE: "Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists.
In the future, kindly tell the ranger they are misinformed and to talk to a supervisor before writing a ticket for a legal activity. Please get a name of this ranger so we can bring this to the attention of higher ups. If you actually are ticketed, I'd like to know and would be happy to discuss it/advise and assist you.
RVogel"
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 15, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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Doug, sounds like your incapable of understanding humans and only want to apply your interpretations of words that fit neatly into your ear. Banter is a two way street.
You want to apply meanings to the law your way or the highway. Who's the tyrant?
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Jul 16, 2008 - 12:12am PT
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Let's torch it.
What say?
Every climber out by Thursday, spread the word.
Funny, I didn't hear any thunderstorm, did you?
Must have been that new "dry lightin", eh?
Would you want to work inside a three day old Weber?
Get me?
Now you know why no self potraits on rock, eh?
This post will probably go into a "file" somewhere.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 16, 2008 - 03:07am PT
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Pistol Pete wrote
"Folks,
I received a fax from the San Gabriel River Station. I would be happy to provide it to anyone who would like it.
------------------------------------------------------
"Pursuant to Title 36 of Federal Regulations, Section 261.50(b) the following acts are prohibited within any National Forest within the Pacific Southwest region:
Being on the road in possession of any equipment designed for, used for, or intended to be used for the suspension, jumping, or retrieval of any person or object from any road, bridge, or appurtenance thereof. 36 CFR 261.54(e)
Equipment associated with the prohibited activity includes but is not limited to: bungee, rubber, nylon shock, or otherwise elasticized cords, ropes, straps, webbing, harnesses, snatch pulley blocks, tackle, chains, carabiners, ascent or descent control devices, ankle or body braces capable of being readily attached to any suspension device and /or any vehicle, winch, or animal.
Any Federal, State, or local officer, or member of an organized rescue or fire-fighting force in the performance of an official duty is specifically exmepted from this order.
Done at San Francisco, California, This 28th day of June, 1991.
Violation of this prohibition is punishable by a fine of not more than $5,000.00 or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both (16 USC 551, 18 USC 3559 and 3571.
--------------------
This is the reason I was told climbing is not legal. I think it's a bit of a stretch. "
I'd like to agree with Randy but what I've seen is this: base jumping has been successfully tooled in Yosemite using "illegal air delivery" as the legal justification.
If they can construe base jumping as "air delivery" they can twist climbing under the prohibition for bunjee jumping gear and even use Dan Osman's stunts and the mechanics of climbing falls to justify it (if they want)
Of course Doug B has the special knowledge to beat a rap like that but the rest of you are going down.
That is, unless this problem is clarified, hopefully by the access fund.
peace
Karl
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 16, 2008 - 05:59am PT
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JohnBoy silly friend and his ilk....
Your suggested interpretations of the words, are what I described as the dictionary definitions of the words.
In prevailing law, "the import of the word is everything". Otherwise stated, the dictionary definitions of the words prevail.
Ignorant people incessantly allude to "the interpretations" which are never defined.
Commonly intelligent (common sense) people reference the dictionary definitions of the words. Their written definitions make then useful for language and conveying useful concepts.
The void of accountable or defined "interpretations" make them a fool's illusion, the forte' of government idiots and their unquestioning minions.
Therefore, the dictionary is what you perceive as the tyrant.
Go ahead, attempt to defy the tyrant as do the idiot government dolts and their groveling minions who cannot form sentences that do not contradict the dictionary definitions of their words.
You have already failed. Your mind cannot devise a new dictionary whose words mean the opposite of the existing dictionary.
Is it unlawful to carry out an unlawful order? Well?
Is it unlawful to impose an inferior law above a superior law? Well?
The US Supreme Court and every literate person, not power-damaged minds, have already answered those questions as law.
Why will your mind, and the minds of the Park Service thugs, preclude you from answering those easy questions on public record with your name?
Well?
Notice the inherently existent questions following those, that formally destroy the climbing regulations, on record for court evidence.
To understand the humans, you need only learn the design of the human mind, an easily learned arena of knowledge, easier than learning computer programming. There is only one basic design of human minds. There is only one concept that effects a contradiction inducing process within it.
That is the knowledge I learned, not by any institutionally titled or credentialed process, but by simply asking and answering a lot of questions, to resolve every contradiction. Institutions cannot teach such knowledge, and exist. You can learn the same knowledge. Simply start asking and answering questions of obvious contradictions, rather than making the ludicrously meaningless statements you made.
And do not stop until you reach the laughably easy process to immediately eliminate all climbing regulations, regardless of opposition. Vastly more is beyond that.
Karl.... It is not very "special" knowledge. Anyone can easily learn it.
It is just knowledge, learned the same way all knowledge is learned, by asking and answering questions. It takes less time than that required to understand this thread.
I answer every question I encounter, in writing whenever possible. I have answered each of the scant few questions I have encountered on SuperTopo. That is how the human mind learns knowledge.
Not one SuperTopo contributor has answered any of the questions I have asked on SuperTopo.
Ignorant people are those who do not answer questions they encounter, by design of the human mind.
You were asked to ask your questions. You presented none. You are that ignorant.
I would ask you how that defines you and most other SuperTopo contributors (a question), but your demonstrated inability to answer questions has already identified how you became so comparatively ignorant in competition to those who answer questions to learn from their mind's thinking required to answer questions.
There is no "rap" to "beat". Use words that hold their meanings. State your desire to obey the law, then ask that the law be revealed, so that you can conform your actions to the written words of the law.
Ask for the prevailing law, not the inferior laws. And ask with the format that leaves the government idiots with no choice but to reveal the prevailing law or immediately quit their job, or face their own mind and their offspring when you then invoke their inferior laws against them. The Supreme Court has ruled with the words: "What is good for the gander is good for the goose."
The goal is not to clarify the problem. Problems can be clarified forever. The goal is to SOLVE the problem, easily done.
The idiot Access Fund leaders were offered the knowledge, but fear it for the same reason the Park Service thugs fear it. The knowledge solves the problem, leaving the Access Fund and Park Service mountaineering thugs without lucrative jobs fooling fools. Those institution leaders would therefore be more valuable for better jobs, but they are so categorically stupid that they cannot comprehend human existence beyond their current mental midget jobs.
The Nazi Gestapo would have each not otherwise killed their second German Gypsy or Jew.
The entire lives of ignorant people, such as Park Service dolts, can be purchased for a rhetorical illusion destroyed by a single question that the mental midget Park Service chaps refuse to answer. Their lives are therefore worthless to humans, a species predicated on thinking.
And this evening's Tuesday night duplicate BBQnight.com among local Alaska climbers discussed concepts starting at the Black Rapids Glacier, traversing through the molecular structure of minerals and gems on virgin routes, and concluded off route on a Pliades planet, albeit as usual.
Crack the humidor. The smoke from fine maduros can cure a modicum of global warming. We need only make it survivable, for what we will therefore learn.
Doug
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 16, 2008 - 10:34am PT
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Hello.
This letter may come to you as a surprise due to the fact that we have not yet met. I have to say that I have no intentions of causing you any pains so i decided to contact you through this medium.
As you read this, I don't want you to feel sorry for me, because, I believe everyone will die someday. My name is Khalid Yussuf, a merchant in Dubai, in the U.A.E. I have been diagnosed with prostate and esophageal Cancer that was discovered very late due to my laxity in caring for my health. It has defiled all form of medicine and right now, I have only about a few months to live according to medical experts.
I have not particularly lived my life so well, as I never really cared for anyone not even myself but my business. Though I am very rich, I was never generous, I was always hostile to people and only focus on my business as that was the only thing I cared for. But now I regret all this as I now know that there is more to life than just wanting to have or make all the money in the world. I believe if i have a second chance to come to this world I would live my life a different way from how I have lived it. Now that I know my time is near, I have willed and given most of my properties and assets to my immediate and extended family members and as well as a few close friends and Schools in the UAE. I have decided to give alms to charity organizations, as I want this to be one of the last good deeds I do on earth. So far, I have distributed money to some charity organizations in the U.A.E, England and Ireland. Now that my health has deteriorated so badly, I cannot do this my self any more. I once asked members of my family to close one of my accounts and donate the money, which I have there to charity organization in Bulgaria, they refused and kept the money to themselves. Hence, I do not trust them anymore, as they seem not to be contended with what I have left for them. The last of my money which is the huge cash that I deposit in a bank in England Uk.
I want you to help me collect this deposit and dispatched it to charity organizations and let them know that it is I Khalid Yussuf that is making this generous donation.
I am writing this from my laptop computer in my hospital bed in England where I wait for my time to come. If you are interested to help me i will give you more information about this like the amount that i deposited in the bank and Contact of the bank so you can contact them. I will also send you pictures of my self when in the hospital.
Note that you will take 20% out of the funds and give 80% to the charity organizations. I pray that God uses you to support and assist me with good heart God be with you.
If you can help respond back to me on my private email:
khalidyuss22@strompost.com
Khalid Yussuf
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 16, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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Doug wrote about how easy his knowledge is, and yet complained that no supertopo contributer has got any of it.
Doug, each and every one of us is a little or a lot whacked in our own way in this world. Your looniness is just evident because it's not in line with our collective social foolishness. Problem is, yours is so full of ego and arrogance that it leaves less room for compassion.
Give us a new improved version of your madness that includes more unique insights (which I'm sure you have) and quit baiting a line that nobody is biting. Define words that hold their meanings and your concepts. Type up you manifesto as clearly as you can without holding out with teasers like an infomercial selling a seminar.
or break on through, outside the box you've thought yourself into. It's safe outside.
Peace
Karl
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 16, 2008 - 02:40pm PT
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Hey Doug, no worries.
I was just tickling your soft under belly and laughing with you.
LOL
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 16, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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If you want to understand Doug, you need to drink his secret beverage.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 16, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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JohnBoy.....
When I become the OFFICIAL Tyrant, I will therefore grant you Yosemite after a 1 year apprenticeship under Jody's evil twin, current Emperor of Ymite. We will show those climbers how real Emperors rule. Our thugs will carry reasoning-based questions, not guns, for the climbers to ask our thugs. No greater grief can be imposed upon an errant mind.
Karl.....
I have no ego. No human is smarter than any other human. We have the same brain design. We just learn different things, none of them greater or lesser than the other. Nor is any physical skill greater or lesser than another. They are just body-brain movements.
The humans were invented as nothing more than entertainment devices, verifiable.
I have no titles or credentials that do not detract from what I am without them, nothing more than 6.67 Billion others.
So how does a mind perceive that another person is full of ego and arrogance, when he is not?
Tell me which words to change to cause you to perceive that I am what you want. Therefore notice that your perception was created in your brain, not by what I am.
The stinking park pigs are superficially nice guys compared to what we Army thugs did in Vietnam and every war, but the humans do those things for the same single reason, a "triggered" or trained process in the mind.
You can learn that process to promptly solve any particular problem (contradiction) or all of them, regardless of opposition.
It is just knowledge, extremely useful knowledge. It can be used to promptly eliminate all climbing regulations, and end all wars, regardless of opposition.
I cannot hand it to you because knowledge is formed in your mind by your mind asking and answering questions.
You actually have to ask and answer them. I have asked many questions on SuperTopo. They are identified by question marks (?). If you wish, simply answer them, writing your answers, and your knowledge will noticeably advance.
Tell me what else I need to say, to achieve a goal of your preference, and I will say it to the extent of my available time for that goal.
DougBuchanan.com
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 16, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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Hi Doug
Thanks for your reply. I have become wary of engaging in long back and forth typing sessions on supertopo. It struck me that you liberal use of words, even on this page, like idiot, ignorant, fool, dolt and so on showed that you were taking a superior attitude.
You say this knowledge is easily obtained but obviously that is not true as demonstrated by none of us having it.
I did ask
How do you define a word that holds its meaning?
What are the questions we should be asking to have a real effect?
Guess what. Once you list those questions, we'll ask you for the answers, so why not spell it out. Otherwise you're like a flirting sorority girl who hints at sexiness but never engages in it.
Peace
karl
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 16, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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Karl.....
To your question: "How do you define a word that holds its meaning?"
As I have often stated, by the common dictionary.
To your question: "What are the questions we should be asking to have a real effect?"
Start with the questions I have asked in the SuperTopo threads. Question your answers.
That will keep you busy awhile, buy you will learn fast. Let me know if you cannot identify an answer, but the questions are written so the answer is readily identifiable with the slightest thinking.
The extent of my time for SuperTopo is running out today.
Doug
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 16, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
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"Otherwise you're like a flirting sorority girl who hints at sexiness but never engages in it."
I saw the pic of Doug in Alpinist Mag and NO ONE can confuse Doug with a sorority girl.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 16, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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Does this make any less sense?
No greater or lesser the humans do those things formed in your answers, and every war, but them greater or lesser the OFFICIAL Tyrant, I will therefore noticeably advance.
So how real Emperor of Ymite. We just knowledge will say it to you want. Therefore grant mind.
When I become the same brain design. We will carry reasoning-based questions, and answers, and answer that process in the same single reason, a "triggered" or trained process in the human is for the climbers how real Emperors rule.
Doug, courtesy of the http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/Gibber/GibGen.htm
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 16, 2008 - 09:29pm PT
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We're all lunatics, and people who are off-center often see things because they are outside of the boxes we live in.
Climbers have always lived among and accept various forms of misfits and characters. I think its good for everybody.
It's just another form of "Loising Point" communication.
PEace
Karl
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 16, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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"Loising Point"
To funny Karl
I year under Jody's evil twin?
Just shoot me.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 16, 2008 - 10:01pm PT
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Lois is to ST what Margaret Dumont was to Groucho.
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
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Mr. sketchy,
Did you have any luck talking with the Forest Service?
Thanks again for handling this.
Peace,
Pete
(Karl & Doug, you may now resume)
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Jordan Ramey
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jul 21, 2008 - 03:39pm PT
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Sooooooo.... Any further developments on this thing? Has anyone gotten any other word from the parks department on why it's suddenly illegal. Randy, any word?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 21, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
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I wonder if a judge will understand that the statue mentioned was to prevent bungee-jumping from man-made objects like bridges. It was not intended to prevent rock climbing and happens to be vague enough to include equipment used to pull a car out of a ditch.
I think that this would get thrown out if it went to court. Too bad no one is planning on testing that premise.
Oh, and Doug is nuts. Let's hear a factual account of where asking a question got him out of a serious jam (meaning arrest, ticket, etc...) before believing any of that hard-to-read drivel.
Dave
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Clod
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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My partner Redwreck started cluing me in to aid techniques last year on the bolts at Millard Falls. We happily climbed there a dozen times until the camp host showed up with a video camera and ordered us out. He taped us the whole time, was very peremptory and unpleasant, and I've heard similar tales from others.
I was recently in contact with Howard Okamoto, the USFS Recreation Officer for Angeles NF, River District, which includes Millard Falls. I asked simply, "May we climb at Millard?" Mr. Okamoto told me in no uncertain terms, "There is no climbing restriction at Millard Falls."
We had some back and forth, and he asked if we were putting up new bolts or any kind of hardware. I said, "None whatsoever. We climb clean or use existing bolts." When I alluded to the actions of the camp host, he offered to write an e-mail, and here it is verbatim:
Millard Falls is open to rock climbing provided that no new hardware is placed.
Howard S. Okamoto
Recreation Officer
R5, Angeles NF, Los Angeles River RD
12371 North Little Tujunga Canyon Road
San Fernando, CA 91342
818-899-1900 ext 229
hokamoto@fs.fed.us
This guy has been absolutely professional, amiable and open throughout our correspondence, which I hope anyone climbing at Millard would take into account. Be courteous to FS personnel, don't put in any more bolts, and politely cite Mr. Okamoto when challenged. The question of replacing manky bolts was not specifically addressed, but I suppose it could be if it became a real issue, and were framed in terms of safety.
My guess is the "ranger" often referred to in this thread is really just the camp host: not law enforcement, not even a ranger, but just a trailer dweller in a USFS shirt carrying a video camera. He's apparently taken it on himself to set forest policy because he just DOESN'T LIKE CLIMBING. As he told us indignantly while rolling tape, "But there are children here! It's just common sense!" Obviously, rather than scandalizing them with our recklessness, we should cede the entire Angeles NF to the children, after we pad all the edges, remove the predators, and install potties and drinking fountains every 500 feet.
Like other USFS personnel, he might have interpreted the closure of Williamson as applying to the entire Angeles NF. Maybe because Millard/Dawn Mine sees a lot of clueless urban traffic, and he has to deal with so much stupidity, he has become a little sour in the process. In any case, we will behave with absolute civility towards him, but we will familiarize him with Mr. Okamoto's statement.
And we will climb at Millard Falls.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 22, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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nice on ya Clod
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PhotogEC
climber
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Aug 18, 2009 - 10:24am PT
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First off, a big thank you to Clod, whose legwork on contacting Mr. Okamoto saved me and my partner some grief yesterday.
My buddy and I went up to Millard Falls yesterday to do one of the bolt ladders. On our way past the "camp host's" RV, he saw us with our gear and told us that climbing was illegal, and he'd be up in ten minutes. We said "thank you" and proceeded on.
Now, having read this thread, we had come prepared: I had printed out Clod's post, pared down to the immediately relevant information around the direct conversation with Mr. Okamoto, with anything remotely derogatory or condescending about the host removed.
We got up to the falls and began the climb up the left bolt ladder. A few minutes later, sure enough, he showed up with his camera, telling us that "climbing on federal land is illegal. I have all the evidence I need right here on video."
My buddy told him we have something for him to read, handed him the prepared printout, and very politely suggested that he call Mr. Okamoto. Which he did, on the spot. A short conversation ensued--we could hear him complaining about climbers putting stuff up all over the place and it being an eyesore.
However, he hung up and just walked away. Not another word to us.
When we left, a quarter of the way down the trail, we found my printout under a small rock, so I picked it up for future use. Plus, I didn't want the guy to pop us for littering.
So, for anyone else heading up there:
1. Print out the appropriate excerpt of Clod's post, above, or otherwise have Mr. Okamoto's contact information readily available.
2. Be courteous, respectful and polite. No need to get in this guy's face. While he can't stop you from climbing (as long as you're not placing new bolts), he CAN cite you for intimidating/threatening a park employee, which IS illegal and is posted in several places.
3. Be careful about placing new hardware up there... it looks like a number of new hangers have been added outside of the existing older lines. This appears to be their main beef with climbers.
Now, my only question is... what is he doing with all of those videos? Or do I not want to know...?
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Clod
climber
Frogtown, LA, CA
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Aug 31, 2009 - 03:05am PT
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PhotogEC, thanks for the shout. Just got back from traveling.
Smoothly and courteously handled. Good work!
Honestly, I sort of feel for the guy, with all the cack he must put up with. But he just got way off track with this one.
As for what he does with the videos--that is a great question. I'd like to remain a couple of pitches above public speculation.
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Tfish
Sport climber
La Crescenta, CA
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I did the left bolt ladder a few months ago. And we tried about a month ago and that old bastard camp host shut us down. I wish I would have read this before. Now this place is closed for awhile cuz of that stupid station fire.
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wildlife
Boulder climber
janesville wi
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
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hello all im that usfs camphost at millard ...just some clarification . at millard prior to all of this i had few complaints from hikers with children that was up to the millard waterfalls , concerned about climbers falling / knocking debris down on there children playing in water in front of falls . i called usfs dispatch which checked with others and told me to tell climbers it is not permitted . plus can not pound in new cleats or what ever you call them . area as of now is closed from fire . but up to falls its filled with new and old climbing gear . my point its a eyesore to nature . alot of visitors take pic of naturally falls .now its a eyesore .. anyhow i volunteer only and go by what im told ie usfs . since howard o. says its okay i havent stopped anyone [ even though others in usfs said no ] .. i have nothing against climbers . i try mostly trying to keep millard natural and clean of grafiti / diapers /trash etc etc etc ..im told to enform visitors of usfs rules . im against those who trash forest /carve up trees /take snakes salamanders , newts . spray paint millard up etc etc ..anyhow hopefully next spring will be open at earliest . lonnie
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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i had few complaints from hikers with children that was up to the millard waterfalls ,
Do you speak Spanish? Korean?
Because if you don't
you made that up.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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TGT,
What a brilliant way to make friends with others, representing the climbing community!
You've no idea what it is like to walk a mile in another's shoes, unless you've worn them.
In the meantime, you've managed to smear our community with your unwarranted statement against a public servant. Who, by the way, did not rise to the bait of all of the tasteless comments made from the bravery of anonymity, against this host. Shows the guy has more class than a lot of us. (but why is that not a surprise?)
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Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 02:20am PT
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Kindness is a good thing. I think that if there is an opportunity to work towards peace with any officials we should take it. We should be grateful for the good that the officials do that try to preserve natural beautify. We should show them that as climbers, we care about keeping areas clean, having a minimum impact to the environment and our desire to be safe, (most of us use ropes because we want to be safe.) I have had bad experiences with rangers and I am glad when we may have a chance to peacefully talk things out.
Thank you Lonnie for talking with us. I hope that we will all be able to understand each other better and realize that we have common goals.
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PhotogEC
climber
In front of my computer
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:50am PT
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I concur with Don't Let Go & Ken M.
Regardless of any interactions others have had with him, our encounter with Lonnie was polite and respectful on both sides. If he was working under the misunderstanding that climbing wasn't allowed, he listened to me and my buddy and didn't hassle us once he cleared things up with Mr. Okamoto.
Lonnie--if you're still following this, I've gotta give you props for doing a great job keeping Millard clear of litter, graffiti and the like, and I fully appreciate your desire to keep nature natural.
Cheers,
Eric
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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It's not a troll. This sort of thing happens all over. For example, I went to go ice climbing at Big Four Ice Caves near Verlot, Washington. The camp host saw us and told us to come down that climbing wasn't allowed. I politely explained to him that it was allowed, as long as proper safety equipment was used (which we had). He backed down and let us climb.
The people who enforce rules all feel that they are justified in creating rules to help maintain safety, and orderliness. It's "administrative" rulemaking. We as climbers can maintain access by insisting that rangers enforce statutory rules.
Rangers and camp hosts are not trying to ruin your day because you are a climber. Don't try to ruin theirs. Explain to them that you are familiar with the law, but also with their concerns. Be polite.
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| Messages 1 - 74 of total 74 in this topic |
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