what is the speed record for rapping the nose

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pyro

Big Wall climber

Calabasas

Jun 8, 2015 - 11:08am PT

this is what makes Taco an awesome place.
thanks for the info on the 4bar rule

Caveman

climber

Cumberland Plateau

Jun 8, 2015 - 11:37am PT

I thought I would add this post as we are talking about the rappel rack 4 bar rule and if you read the AAJ article it will state that Mr Moore was found with his rack in the 4 bar configure.

Now we are getting to specifically why this attracted my attention. Mr Moore lost control on 4 bars. I rapped the wall on 4 bars and tried to maintain an out of control condition. I could only do so by holding the bars apart. It is my belief that Mr Moore had spacers on his rack which prevented full engagement of bars.
The AAJ article states that the participants erred in negotiating the edge with "brute force". Sounds scary means nothing. Once past the lip one will have to deal with the full weight of rope regardless of having it or not passing the lip. Mr Moore was already past the edge.
Just wanted to add this so you understand the 4 bar rule had not been broken.

Crazy Bat

Sport climber

Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN

Jun 8, 2015 - 05:46pm PT

I believe there was a rappelling accident before the 1992 one. Let me check my sources. Most people now use a much longer rappel rack for El Cap so they can put more bars on it. Caveman is probably right about the spacers. I've never been a fan of them.

Nope same accident. Yoder always said he only had three bars on the rope when he started his rappel, but he may not have had access to the accident report.

Stephen W. Attaway PhD did the math and wrote an article on the math of how rappel devices work. He told me that even with 4 bars, on long rappels, it can be a close thing. The friction when you are not moving is much greater than when you are moving. Which is why many people find themselves feeding rope when they begin their rappel. (Particularly with rappel racks)

Crazy Bat

Sport climber

Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN

Jun 8, 2015 - 06:36pm PT

Nope it was the same accident. Yoder is the nickname of the guy who was assisting him as he went over the edge. Yoder always said he went over with three bars. He probably didnt' have access to the accident report saying he had 4 bars on at the bottom.

I just had a conversation with Stephen W. Attaway PhD who wrote the article the Mechanics of Friction in Rescue (http://jrre.org/att_frict.pdf); He told me that even 4 bars at the top of El Cap can be a balancing act.

The article will explain to you how your rappeling and belaying devices work, if you can follow it. LOL

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Jun 8, 2015 - 07:41pm PT

Does the AAJ report (available online) have it wrong. That report says he stopped 100 meters down. They speculate that he might have tried to add a bar and inadvertently dropped a bar. This contradicts with an earlier statement in the report that 4 bars were engaged at the base.

Wouldn't the friction decreased as he went lower, due to less rope pulling on the bars?

Crazy Bat

Sport climber

Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN

Jun 9, 2015 - 03:45pm PT

Yoder said the rappeller asked him to take a picture of him on the edge. He turned his head to reach for the camera and when he turned back the rappeler was gone. It happened just that fast.

Yes the friction on the device decreases as you go down because one of the factors at play is the weight of the rope below you. The more weight on the rope, the more friction you need to overcome, so you are constantly adjusting the rappel rack. The most experienced people do this by adjusting the spacing between their bars. The bottom two bars are the most easily adjusted because the weight on the device pushes upward on the upper bars. Light weight people tend to put spacers between their upper bars because of this.

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Jun 9, 2015 - 07:34pm PT

Caveman
If you think the AAJ article is factually incorrect you should contact the current editor.
The AAJ usually adds evaluation of the causes and often adds criticisms. Sometimes they are harsh.

NCRob

Sport climber

Feb 19, 2016 - 10:43pm PT

Hello I randomly came across this thread. The plaque is still there - glued to the underside of the "diving board". I didn't notice it until I went back and watched my GoPro videos. I could maybe produce a still frame of that. I think someone has photographed it up close and I can try to track that down for you.

Also the speed rappel record is 3 mins by a guy named John.

I did it myself in 6 mins. We are not trying to push these records, they are just incidental.

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

ne'er–do–well

Feb 19, 2016 - 11:53pm PT

... the (Nose) speed rappel record is 3 mins by a guy named John.

NCRob

Sport climber

Feb 20, 2016 - 03:55pm PT

Not from the nose, we rap from the diving board.

Robert Coney

climber

Jun 17, 2017 - 03:59pm PT

Hello,
I was the second caver at the lip with Yoder when this accident occurred. I just accidently came across this thread. It has been a long time, but my memory is as follows:
I'm pretty sure there was another group of TAG cavers who had been out the week prior to us to do El Cap. We had a team of about 12 people who went to rappel and climb El Cap and Half Dome. It was very organized, with very competent people. We had practiced for weeks. I was on the team that rigged and did Half Dome first. Half way through the week, the two crews switched mountains. That morning my wife and I did the rappel and climb of El Cap (25 minutes down, 2 hours up), Yoder hanging out at the top. Mr. Farmer and Mr. Moore were not part of our team, but had been given permission to hike in and do the El Cap rappel. I think Mr. Farmer was known to our trip leaders. By my memory it was Mr. Moore's birthday. He was 40.
They arrived, and Mr. Farmer went down without incidence. I was sitting on a rock to the side of the rig point. There was a haul system but it was optional to use it. Mr. Moore got on rope, with a longish rack (maybe 18 inch? We had Thor racks). Don't know about spacers. He started to back up with just three bars on. I commented on this and he put a forth bar on. He gave Yoder his camera to take a picture as he went over, which he did. Yoder was to give him his camera back after he got over the lip.
Yoder started to tie the camera to the tail, but then saw him start slipping down the rope. He yelled at him to do a leg wrap. He grabbed the walki-talki and yelled for those on the bottom to do a bottom belay (which would be impossible due to the stretch of the long rope). We could not see him (Yoder leaned back in rather than watch), but it was obvious when he hit the bulge, about a thousand feet off the bottom due to the shock wave that came back up the rope.
I remember that some climbers gave a description of him stopping part way down, which was never reconciled with our account. Our impression was that he lost control from the top due to too few brake bars on the rope. I think Yoder's first comment was "classic four bar death rappel".
He never got his camera, which he should have if he had control at the top. I think we gave it to the Park Service. It was a very traumatic event, but those are the chances you take when you choose to do such magnificent things.
I think one of our trip leaders went back the next year and placed the plaque that is mentioned.

WBraun

climber

Jun 17, 2017 - 05:01pm PT

Anyways this is NOT the Nose rappel, to begin with.

I bet Steve Grossman has the actual speed record for the NOSE rappel just using two standard 60 metre ropes in just a few hours.

He's done it several times Camp 4 to Nose and back to Camp 4 that way ......

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jun 17, 2017 - 05:22pm PT

Why all this emphasis on speed? El Cap is the closest thing to a temple secular climbers will ever experience....something to savor. Especially when you have to endure the crass commercialism of the Valley to get to it.

WBraun

climber

Jun 17, 2017 - 05:24pm PT

Because America runs on speed ...... :-)

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jun 17, 2017 - 05:35pm PT

You're absolutely right Werner. I'm finally beginning to learn to slow down and savor the moment but it's taken me nearly three quarters of a century to get here.