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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 7, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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I know it would take me longer than any assent record
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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locker rap not jump ?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Somebody's rap rig wasn't done right once, and they speed right down the 3000 foot rope in record time. It was rapping but it wasn't a happy ending.
Speed rapping isn't the kind of record folks should be going for. Plenty of ways to get killed. Still, I admit, it would be interesting to know how long it takes a really competent person who knows the terrain to get from the top to bottom. (cause as a photographer, sometimes that's what it take to get shots)
peace
karl
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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I heard a caver had the fast record rapping a solid 3000 feet rope on El Cap when his rack bar failed .
Werner, what is the detail on this?
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al_piner
climber
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It depends on how much bolting you do on the way down .
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Majid S,
> I heard a caver had the fast record rapping a solid 3000 feet rope on El Cap when his rack bar failed .
Robert Moore, 1992 (Accidents in North American Mountaineering 1993) on a [edit:] 820 meter (150 pound) single rope
on the Dawn Wall. Insufficient friction in rappel device, got out of control and hit the wall hard.
[edit to add:]
Online reference with very few details:
http://www.extremerappels.com/XTR%20Pages/EC1996.htm
"Certainly the small black plaque secured to the underside of the ledge at the top qualifies in this regard. The plaque was placed there as a memorial to Robert Moore, a rappeller that died in an uncontrolled rappel in 1992 (Nylon Highway No. 36). The plaque is one of the first things you see once you are over the edge and serves as a sobering reminder that our sport is not without peril. Some of the team had the opportunity to speak with rock climbers that were actually on the wall during the accident, and they provided an eye-witness account of the incident. YOSAR personnel also related some of the details of the subsequent body recovery and attempts to find the cause of the disaster, which will probably never be fully known."
The ANAM report is more detailed, but still could only speculate about why he got out of control, because he was not close enough to directly observe when things went wrong.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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If Mr Moore was on a 2000' rope off the Dawn Wall then I can see a problem right away.
I tried to recreate the conditions involved with Moore's death to try and better understand what happened to him. My own opinion is that inexperience coupled with a rack 'configuration problem' put Moore in a situation where he was unable to brake. He most likely perished when he struck the wall somewhere around 1000'.
I was unable to maintain an 'out of control' rappel without physically holding the rack open. I would imagine that my rap would be at least one of the fastest if not the fastest successful rappels off El Cap. I did not time it but I would guess it was under 3 minutes. I stopped a couple of times. caveman
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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What kind of a rig were you using Caveman?
Prod.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Prod, I was rappelling with a Thor rack (extra length) with 5 brake bars. I rapped most of the route with 4 bars. I adhere to the cavers 4 bar rule (never use less than 4 bars). Oh, I had no safety as I use none.
edit to add: a cavers rack is like an elongated biner with an eye at one end. It accepts multiple brake bars configured opposite each other with the braking action created when the bars are slid close to each other and speed achieved when they are spread out.
Karl, speed rapping is no more dangerous than speed climbing.
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Jason Wheeler
climber
Pleasant Hill CA
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Hi Clint,
I was doing some research on my uncle Robert Moore who died on El Capitan in 1992 and came across this thread from 2008 http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=628720&tn=0
I'm wondering if there are any pictures of the plaque you spoke of dedicated to my uncle? None of his family are aware of the plaque... Does anyone know who decided to have it put there?
Any insights you could give would be much appreciated. We are trying to track down a picture of the plaque for my uncles widow and children.
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Jason Wheeler
climber
Pleasant Hill CA
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Thank you for the reply Cragman... do you have any knowledge of the plaque referenced in this thread? Thank you for your reply.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Just don't Gugglimucci the effort...
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WBraun
climber
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I was on the recovery of the Jason Wheeler rappel accident.
How does one actually witness the accident happening if you're climbing on the free-blast?
On the Free Blast you would be completely out of sight from the Dawn wall rappel.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jason,
I was quoting from the extremerappels.com web page in 2008 which described the plaque. (It does not seem to exist anymore, and www.archive.org didn't save the particular page I quoted from).
I haven't looked for the plaque myself.
A good way to follow up would be to send an email to the user "Caveman", as he investigated the accident. He may know about the plaque also.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"Certainly the small black plaque secured to the underside of the ledge at the top qualifies in this regard. The plaque was placed there as a memorial to Robert Moore, a rappeller that died in an uncontrolled rappel in 1992 (Nylon Highway No. 36). The plaque is one of the first things you see once you are over the edge and serves as a sobering reminder that our sport is not without peril."
My guess after reading the above is that the plaque is attached to the rock just below the top of the rappel point the cavers use. (top of the Dawn Wall)
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Jason Wheeler
climber
Pleasant Hill CA
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WOW pretty crazy that a few of you were there for this incident. This is great info. I wonder if there is an organization or place that would know more about this plaque. Who put it there?
It seems odd to me that a plaque was put there for my uncle when there have been many that have fallen from El Cap...
Does anyone have any ideas of how I might be able to further investigate?
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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I know the caver that was at the top and evidently assisting Mr. Moore as he got on rope.
I'm speculating that the folks involved in the rappel would be the plaque placers or would at least know who did it. They perhaps were recognizing Mr. Moore as SRT(single rope technique) fatality at that spot whereas other deaths did not happen at that place (that they knew of). Basically they were just recognizing the rappelling death.
I can ask the people I know about it to see if I can find out more.
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Jason Wheeler
climber
Pleasant Hill CA
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Caveman... your looking into this for us means a lot to Rob's family. Anything you can find or leads you can assist with would be very much appreciated.
Ultimately it would be great to get a snapshot or picture of the plaque.
Since we discovered it's existence Robs Sister and Widow have a strong desire to confirm that this memorial is there especially since there is no formal memorial spot due the nature of his passing...
Thank you sir for your help.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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It may comfort the family to know that his accident was the reason cavers have the 4 bar rule. My brother does some research into rappelling accidents and I know the guy who was at the top with him just before he fell. He was using the standard length rack and there was so much friction that he went to three bars. He asked my friend to hand him something and when my friend turned back around he was gone. So the loss of control happened really fast.
I've forgotten the theory as to why three bars can lead to no bars, but his death has probably saved countless lives.
If you want to have some contact information PM me.
Myrna
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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this is what makes Taco an awesome place.
thanks for the info on the 4bar rule
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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I thought I would add this post as we are talking about the rappel rack 4 bar rule and if you read the AAJ article it will state that Mr Moore was found with his rack in the 4 bar configure.
Now we are getting to specifically why this attracted my attention. Mr Moore lost control on 4 bars. I rapped the wall on 4 bars and tried to maintain an out of control condition. I could only do so by holding the bars apart. It is my belief that Mr Moore had spacers on his rack which prevented full engagement of bars.
The AAJ article states that the participants erred in negotiating the edge with "brute force". Sounds scary means nothing. Once past the lip one will have to deal with the full weight of rope regardless of having it or not passing the lip. Mr Moore was already past the edge.
Just wanted to add this so you understand the 4 bar rule had not been broken.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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I believe there was a rappelling accident before the 1992 one. Let me check my sources. Most people now use a much longer rappel rack for El Cap so they can put more bars on it. Caveman is probably right about the spacers. I've never been a fan of them.
Nope same accident. Yoder always said he only had three bars on the rope when he started his rappel, but he may not have had access to the accident report.
Stephen W. Attaway PhD did the math and wrote an article on the math of how rappel devices work. He told me that even with 4 bars, on long rappels, it can be a close thing. The friction when you are not moving is much greater than when you are moving. Which is why many people find themselves feeding rope when they begin their rappel. (Particularly with rappel racks)
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Nope it was the same accident. Yoder is the nickname of the guy who was assisting him as he went over the edge. Yoder always said he went over with three bars. He probably didnt' have access to the accident report saying he had 4 bars on at the bottom.
I just had a conversation with Stephen W. Attaway PhD who wrote the article the Mechanics of Friction in Rescue (http://jrre.org/att_frict.pdf); He told me that even 4 bars at the top of El Cap can be a balancing act.
The article will explain to you how your rappeling and belaying devices work, if you can follow it. LOL
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Does the AAJ report (available online) have it wrong. That report says he stopped 100 meters down. They speculate that he might have tried to add a bar and inadvertently dropped a bar. This contradicts with an earlier statement in the report that 4 bars were engaged at the base.
Wouldn't the friction decreased as he went lower, due to less rope pulling on the bars?
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Yoder said the rappeller asked him to take a picture of him on the edge. He turned his head to reach for the camera and when he turned back the rappeler was gone. It happened just that fast.
Yes the friction on the device decreases as you go down because one of the factors at play is the weight of the rope below you. The more weight on the rope, the more friction you need to overcome, so you are constantly adjusting the rappel rack. The most experienced people do this by adjusting the spacing between their bars. The bottom two bars are the most easily adjusted because the weight on the device pushes upward on the upper bars. Light weight people tend to put spacers between their upper bars because of this.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Caveman
If you think the AAJ article is factually incorrect you should contact the current editor.
The AAJ usually adds evaluation of the causes and often adds criticisms. Sometimes they are harsh.
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NCRob
Sport climber
NC
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Feb 19, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
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Hello I randomly came across this thread. The plaque is still there - glued to the underside of the "diving board". I didn't notice it until I went back and watched my GoPro videos. I could maybe produce a still frame of that. I think someone has photographed it up close and I can try to track that down for you.
Also the speed rappel record is 3 mins by a guy named John.
I did it myself in 6 mins. We are not trying to push these records, they are just incidental.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 19, 2016 - 11:53pm PT
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... the (Nose) speed rappel record is 3 mins by a guy named John.
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NCRob
Sport climber
NC
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Feb 20, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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Not from the nose, we rap from the diving board.
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Robert Coney
climber
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Jun 17, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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Hello,
I was the second caver at the lip with Yoder when this accident occurred. I just accidently came across this thread. It has been a long time, but my memory is as follows:
I'm pretty sure there was another group of TAG cavers who had been out the week prior to us to do El Cap. We had a team of about 12 people who went to rappel and climb El Cap and Half Dome. It was very organized, with very competent people. We had practiced for weeks. I was on the team that rigged and did Half Dome first. Half way through the week, the two crews switched mountains. That morning my wife and I did the rappel and climb of El Cap (25 minutes down, 2 hours up), Yoder hanging out at the top. Mr. Farmer and Mr. Moore were not part of our team, but had been given permission to hike in and do the El Cap rappel. I think Mr. Farmer was known to our trip leaders. By my memory it was Mr. Moore's birthday. He was 40.
They arrived, and Mr. Farmer went down without incidence. I was sitting on a rock to the side of the rig point. There was a haul system but it was optional to use it. Mr. Moore got on rope, with a longish rack (maybe 18 inch? We had Thor racks). Don't know about spacers. He started to back up with just three bars on. I commented on this and he put a forth bar on. He gave Yoder his camera to take a picture as he went over, which he did. Yoder was to give him his camera back after he got over the lip.
Yoder started to tie the camera to the tail, but then saw him start slipping down the rope. He yelled at him to do a leg wrap. He grabbed the walki-talki and yelled for those on the bottom to do a bottom belay (which would be impossible due to the stretch of the long rope). We could not see him (Yoder leaned back in rather than watch), but it was obvious when he hit the bulge, about a thousand feet off the bottom due to the shock wave that came back up the rope.
I remember that some climbers gave a description of him stopping part way down, which was never reconciled with our account. Our impression was that he lost control from the top due to too few brake bars on the rope. I think Yoder's first comment was "classic four bar death rappel".
He never got his camera, which he should have if he had control at the top. I think we gave it to the Park Service. It was a very traumatic event, but those are the chances you take when you choose to do such magnificent things.
I think one of our trip leaders went back the next year and placed the plaque that is mentioned.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
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Anyways this is NOT the Nose rappel, to begin with.
I bet Steve Grossman has the actual speed record for the NOSE rappel just using two standard 60 metre ropes in just a few hours.
He's done it several times Camp 4 to Nose and back to Camp 4 that way ......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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Why all this emphasis on speed? El Cap is the closest thing to a temple secular climbers will ever experience....something to savor. Especially when you have to endure the crass commercialism of the Valley to get to it.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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Because America runs on speed ...... :-)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
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You're absolutely right Werner. I'm finally beginning to learn to slow down and savor the moment but it's taken me nearly three quarters of a century to get here.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Jun 17, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
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High Bob! Thanks for chiming in.
Myrna
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Jun 18, 2017 - 09:36am PT
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Yep, she was part of our group. She is a good photographer.
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ec
climber
ca
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Jun 18, 2017 - 09:47am PT
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OP, Sioux Juan musta went off the end of his thread...
 ec
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