Side by Side Ethics, Practicality or the Road to Hell?

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Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
I musta missed that one, like the Huber brothers.

MySourcesReport Edit: What did Kim ever do besides repeat the local testpieces with a giggle and a wink for the local lads?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
Mimi,

It was more colorful than that; don't give it such short shrift.

Carrigan wrote an article, generally calling the Valley locals a bunch of myopic, xenophobic, flyweight, deli-bound wankers.

Then he did that America's Cup thing on the Cookie.
There's more good stuff, but as I've already shown, I don't have a mind like a steel trap for such anecdotes.

He sort of championed this whole idea of the poor sportsmanlike California-centric behavior of which Bob speaks. Perhaps somebody could post up the article; I think it had a picture of him doing the Rostrum roof in Harlequin inspired Lycra.

Anyhow, I liked him, we climbed Hotline together in '80, before the big dustup. (He lead the crux)...
Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
Sorry, poor attempt at trying to be subtle.

I'll try to find the article. Splendid idea.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
I think we got our wires crossed a little bit upthread Bob.
But no matter; this is all fair game and I'm not taking it to heart here, just babbling and listing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:33pm PT
Yes Mimi,
Be a dear and find us that article won't you?
It might even have "Valley Boys" in the title.
(This thread needs more cowbell).
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
Funny stuff...I remember Kim and when he first came to America...just about walked everything. Patrick did same and what about that Moffat guy.
Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 08:49pm PT
You guys will soil if you haven't seen this. Speaking of Jerry and Wolfie. This list needs updating. One error of note, it is Gill's The Thimble, not Timble.

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=324
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
May 10, 2008 - 11:19pm PT
You know you guys are insane don't you? I mean, I always knew Roy was pretty far gone, but Bob had proven himself to be so far over the edge as to rival even Wes for wacko ideas. You guys really should just drop this thread. Isn't it obvious that no one cares? Only a few of us old fvcks are even reading this anymore and we all know we are lost souls too. This stuff will go down how it goes down and there is nothing anyone can or will do about it until it is way too late. Move on, there is nothing left to see here.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 11, 2008 - 12:19am PT
Although I know that post was somewhat (only somewhat) tongue-in-cheek,
One wonders how much truth there is in that Jan.


In the original post, Ron wrote these three things:

"It is becoming a more crowded world. We are going to have to reach an accommodation or see it all lost."

"My feeling is that the trads undermine their own high point by so demonizing those who have a different view."

"So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?"



As far as this thread goes, I'm not sure I'm seeing any grand impetus to reach an accommodation. Which is fine, as it was merely put up for discussion.

Regarding the second and third quotes; this is the type of stuff that raised Bob's hackles in the last few posts: exemplified by this whole thing about California climber style arrogance and the similarities that behavior has to some of the trad community and their opinions and actions toward rap bolters.

As it turns out, and it has been echoed here by a few, it seems as though any accommodation at this point is to be made for the trad climbers, not for the sport climbers. Even though there are plenty of young trad climbers, it would be interesting to know just how many are feeling pushed out their active first ascent opportunities by the prevalence of rappel bolting.


I ask this, because I agree with what Bob said about Boulder Canyon. Trad climbers really hadn't done anything there for years, then when sport climbing started happening there in a big way, a lot of the old guard rose up in indignation.; this wasn't like John Bachar, 20 years ago in Tuolumne, experiencing overwhelming competition for stone.

Is a lot of this opposition toward top-down tactics in fact more a phenomenon of aging trad climbers who speak out on this forum and in towns like Boulder. How many young climbers in Yosemite are feeling put out by the new route on Half Dome?

I'd like to see trad survive, I think sport climbing is cool too. Just how robust is the current trad FA bolting movement and how can we assess that?
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
May 11, 2008 - 12:20am PT
Two words: Smoot Syndrome (or was it Valley Syndrome, by Smoot. Fire up the scanner.)
WBraun

climber
May 11, 2008 - 12:31am PT
Don't worry .....

Old school will never die.

It's the foundation that everything is built upon.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 11, 2008 - 12:38am PT
I believe that Werner.

But from what I know, not that this is a problem, most young climbers focus their trad experiences on gear routes.

Around here, they rehearse and red point nasty cracks with poor pro; almost head point style. When they "clip bolts", they are thinking sport climb. I'm not so sure many of them are running out to look for stance drilling experiences.

James would know.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 11, 2008 - 12:41am PT
That's right Russ.
Jeff Smoot and the Valley Syndrome!
Boy, we could have some fun with that...
WBraun

climber
May 11, 2008 - 12:42am PT
No no

Traditional climbing will die on the surface.

The old school will become forgotten and lost over time.

The great masters will be far and between.

And then many many moons in the far far future.

They will return ......
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 11, 2008 - 12:51am PT
Like Yoda?
Cool.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
May 11, 2008 - 02:35am PT
Sort of tongue in cheek.... ....always....

I think at some point in the next 10 years some of the runout nasties will start to get done again. Some of the younger guys I boulder with are heading there. Like you said Roy, they still think trad is gear. They are starting to learn.

At the same time, I think a lot of us older climbers who understood that half of hard climbing was keeping your head together on long runouts are disappointed to see that ethic die and are spouting off trying to save it.

Bob is just an anti California guy who is jealous of the notoriety of those very same California hard men who were famous at a time that all Colorado had to offer was Pat and his boy toy Christian.

Besides, Werner is always right, isn't he?
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 11, 2008 - 02:43am PT
G gnome wrote: Bob is just an anti California guy who is jealous of the notoriety of those very same California hard men who were famous at a time that all Colorado had to offer was Pat and his boy toy Christian.


Like I said before get over yourself. :)


My climbing partner a well known Cali-boy thinks that the stagnant attitude of the locals in Yosemite set standards back 20 years. Makes you think...

It one thing thinking your the best and another being the best...
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
May 11, 2008 - 02:56am PT
Just funnin' with you Bob. You climb with Jack don't you? We all know he is a hardman.

I think the valley still has that affect on those who spend too much time there. There are lots of other great places to climb and other great climbers. But the whole idea of getting any sort of agreement out of the lot is absurd. I think Wes is a perfect example of that.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 11, 2008 - 10:55am PT
posted upthread was an essay by Frank Smythe titled: [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=588524&msg=589666#msg589666"]Expediency[/url] and it is worth contemplating why he chose that title, and what his main point was; I believe this is the crux of the issue, a long running issue, in this sport.

The point is: why do what is expedient instead of waiting to do what is consistent with our tradition.

Of course, this could be a broader societal discussion and has the larger relevance to the source of generational disagreements. After all, who among us did not think we knew better than our parents when we were 19?

Anyway, the point is, the lines are there to be done in what ever style we choose. Smythe asks the question of himself: what if I did a climb using all the artifice at my disposal now, and find out later that it could have been done without resorting to that artifice?

Why is expediency a valid reason for transgressing the traditional "rules" of climbing?

In all I have read about so-called climbing ethics, this one essay is the deepest, in my opinion. A well spring from which all the other discussions should flow.
WBraun

climber
May 11, 2008 - 11:18am PT
Good job Ed for remaining focused.

Threading the tiny eye of the needle takes a steady and sober approach.
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