Side by Side Ethics, Practicality or the Road to Hell?

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jstan

climber
May 10, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
Roy:
Not sure to which proposal of mine you refer, but no matter either way.

I would suggest a couple of things.

1. If involving Facelift is a possibility several of you should first sit down with Ken and mull over all the pros and cons. Are we ready for a meeting?
2. You need to think over the format or the ground rules of the meeting. I am not suggesting Robert's Rules of Order or any such but there has to be something. Suggesting a time limit is very good for helping people to prioritize what they wish to address. The meeting has to focus on something so perhaps the first few minutes might be spent defining what the group thinks the problem is? If it is too early for a meeting you will get no consensus on even this. If you do get agreement then what people feel the meeting can achieve might be discussed.
3. You need to come up with a respected neutral moderator. Ken is the natural choice but he may not want to fill this role. So that you waste no time, I am out.

Maybe something like:
What is the problem?
What can we realistically hope to achieve here?
Then what might be approaches to the problem(s)?

(It might even be that a short, perhaps smaller, meeting early in Facelift could deal with these first two parts, and then a larger meeting later could address approaches? Dunno.)

My opinion, based on 2300 posts is that discussions of climbing style lead nowhere. Probably not even the issue, I think.

It was at such a meeting that we in the Shawangunks defined our objectives, and very successfully so.


bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
John wrote: My opinion, based on 2300 posts is that discussions of climbing style lead nowhere. Probably not even the issue, I think.


So what issues keep us from working together???
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 10, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
John. I am well aware that those rules were put together a long time ago when you guys were in the process of dealing with a new style of climbing.. Euro invasion so to speak. Even today I wouldn't mess with someones project without asking them first but in some circles anything seems to be fair game.....
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
Now now Bob don't put in some weird perspective.

Henry Barber did not do some routes the locals couldn't do. He climbs the route the next day after the local had cleaned the route the day before.
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
Werner...is Butterballs still in the Valley??
Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
Bob, I'd like to offer opposing views regarding your historical accounts. As for the Sean and Doug debacle, name calling is to be expected and is totally consistent with the schoolyard brawl mentality of which I'm a proud member. The trouble is, Doug was a kind friend when I got to know him and I'd rather not comment on this controversy.

Henry had the rep for poaching routes. Common knowledge. Since when is there a shortage of bombast between rivals? I think his antics are classic despite how big an ass he could be.

Criticism of Paul and Todd was due to the disdain for their hangdogging and other tactics, nothing more. Most everyone appreciated Todd regardless.

As for the Stigma drama, Alan Watts was not the one who was being hassled, it was Todd for pre-placing pins for his attempt. When some of the pins were pulled, Alan did the ascent without them, and therefore, in better style than Todd.

My recollection of the feelings toward Jardine was that he was dogging hard routes, using these new topsecret gadgets, and eventually claiming the FFA or FA. Of course that would ruffle some feathers.

I'm pretty sure it was JB that was on the receiving end of the sucker punches. Sad sauce but nothing that wouldn't pass for fraternal love in a fine British pub.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
You both forgot the Valley Boys versus Kim Carrigan.
Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
I musta missed that one, like the Huber brothers.

MySourcesReport Edit: What did Kim ever do besides repeat the local testpieces with a giggle and a wink for the local lads?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
Mimi,

It was more colorful than that; don't give it such short shrift.

Carrigan wrote an article, generally calling the Valley locals a bunch of myopic, xenophobic, flyweight, deli-bound wankers.

Then he did that America's Cup thing on the Cookie.
There's more good stuff, but as I've already shown, I don't have a mind like a steel trap for such anecdotes.

He sort of championed this whole idea of the poor sportsmanlike California-centric behavior of which Bob speaks. Perhaps somebody could post up the article; I think it had a picture of him doing the Rostrum roof in Harlequin inspired Lycra.

Anyhow, I liked him, we climbed Hotline together in '80, before the big dustup. (He lead the crux)...
Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
Sorry, poor attempt at trying to be subtle.

I'll try to find the article. Splendid idea.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
I think we got our wires crossed a little bit upthread Bob.
But no matter; this is all fair game and I'm not taking it to heart here, just babbling and listing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:33pm PT
Yes Mimi,
Be a dear and find us that article won't you?
It might even have "Valley Boys" in the title.
(This thread needs more cowbell).
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
Funny stuff...I remember Kim and when he first came to America...just about walked everything. Patrick did same and what about that Moffat guy.
Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 08:49pm PT
You guys will soil if you haven't seen this. Speaking of Jerry and Wolfie. This list needs updating. One error of note, it is Gill's The Thimble, not Timble.

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=324
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
May 10, 2008 - 11:19pm PT
You know you guys are insane don't you? I mean, I always knew Roy was pretty far gone, but Bob had proven himself to be so far over the edge as to rival even Wes for wacko ideas. You guys really should just drop this thread. Isn't it obvious that no one cares? Only a few of us old fvcks are even reading this anymore and we all know we are lost souls too. This stuff will go down how it goes down and there is nothing anyone can or will do about it until it is way too late. Move on, there is nothing left to see here.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 11, 2008 - 12:19am PT
Although I know that post was somewhat (only somewhat) tongue-in-cheek,
One wonders how much truth there is in that Jan.


In the original post, Ron wrote these three things:

"It is becoming a more crowded world. We are going to have to reach an accommodation or see it all lost."

"My feeling is that the trads undermine their own high point by so demonizing those who have a different view."

"So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?"



As far as this thread goes, I'm not sure I'm seeing any grand impetus to reach an accommodation. Which is fine, as it was merely put up for discussion.

Regarding the second and third quotes; this is the type of stuff that raised Bob's hackles in the last few posts: exemplified by this whole thing about California climber style arrogance and the similarities that behavior has to some of the trad community and their opinions and actions toward rap bolters.

As it turns out, and it has been echoed here by a few, it seems as though any accommodation at this point is to be made for the trad climbers, not for the sport climbers. Even though there are plenty of young trad climbers, it would be interesting to know just how many are feeling pushed out their active first ascent opportunities by the prevalence of rappel bolting.


I ask this, because I agree with what Bob said about Boulder Canyon. Trad climbers really hadn't done anything there for years, then when sport climbing started happening there in a big way, a lot of the old guard rose up in indignation.; this wasn't like John Bachar, 20 years ago in Tuolumne, experiencing overwhelming competition for stone.

Is a lot of this opposition toward top-down tactics in fact more a phenomenon of aging trad climbers who speak out on this forum and in towns like Boulder. How many young climbers in Yosemite are feeling put out by the new route on Half Dome?

I'd like to see trad survive, I think sport climbing is cool too. Just how robust is the current trad FA bolting movement and how can we assess that?
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
May 11, 2008 - 12:20am PT
Two words: Smoot Syndrome (or was it Valley Syndrome, by Smoot. Fire up the scanner.)
WBraun

climber
May 11, 2008 - 12:31am PT
Don't worry .....

Old school will never die.

It's the foundation that everything is built upon.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 11, 2008 - 12:38am PT
I believe that Werner.

But from what I know, not that this is a problem, most young climbers focus their trad experiences on gear routes.

Around here, they rehearse and red point nasty cracks with poor pro; almost head point style. When they "clip bolts", they are thinking sport climb. I'm not so sure many of them are running out to look for stance drilling experiences.

James would know.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 11, 2008 - 12:41am PT
That's right Russ.
Jeff Smoot and the Valley Syndrome!
Boy, we could have some fun with that...
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