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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 4, 2008 - 12:32pm PT
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The schism has become so pronounced that in addition to the tacos longest thread it has spawned spinoff arguments.
My feeling is that the trads undermine their own high point by so demonizing those who have a different view.
It could very well be that they create an incentive to lie about how routes are established as well.
I can think of numerous areas where routes of entirely different natures exist side by side. People recognize how they were established and credit is doled out on that basis.
Let us not dismiss the value of the candor in this arrangement.
It is becoming a more crowded world. We are going to have to reach an accommodation or see it all lost.
So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Up is up.
Down is down.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2008 - 12:48pm PT
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I'd say that is a clear vote for "the Road to Hell".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Contrast can make it easier to see things more clearly.
A choice put the decision in the lap of the climber.
Enforced morality is just conformity, not a choice to define yourself and your own values and visions. Look at the "Morality by Law" in Sharia countries.
And different values and visions have varying virtues.
Guess I'm a moral relativist.
Peace
Karl
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Beer isn't single malt whiskey either.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2008 - 01:14pm PT
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OK, I've got you John.
15 days ago I saw you do both! LOL
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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I guess it can depend on the motives for climbing.
Some of us climb for fun, and some are climbing for
"existential" reasons too; or that they are doing something
that will give fame and glory and live beyond themselves.
I can't complain too much about the later because it gives
climbers like me (rec) an almost infinite lifetime supply of
readily pre-placed routes to follow up, and I appretiate
their work.
As established areas require some regulation to keep things
in check, some will find this oppressive and has given birth
to what some refere to now as "The Secret Area" or TSA as I will
refere to it.
TSAs now abound amoung climbing groups as a way to
circumvent the "ethics commitee" and styles vary from trad
to hauling in heavy equipment such as compressors,
jackhammers, grooming, gardening equipment etc.., even so far as to constructing furniture out of natural materials for
the comfort of the climbers at the base.
The TSA will usually last a year or two until word finnaly
leaks out to the rest of the climbing world, but by then if
their ambitious, the good obvious lines (plumbs) are picked...
The bolts in, and is doubtful anyone is going to erase an
an etire area of bolts for "ethics".
I know of a few TSAs in progress right now in Colo, but I
was let in on some of them on the express condition that I
not tell anyone. I also know of several that havn't been
discovered but I have respect for the pristine nature of
the area and will reamin silent on both types unless offered money and will now take cash only bids on this beta if anyone is interested.:)
Here are a few former Colo TSAs that are now established.
Turkey rock (trad)
Shelf road (sport)
Penitente (sport)
Thunder ridge (both)
Boulder canyon (both)
Devils head (both)
Eleven mile canyon (both)
Rifle (sport)
Lots I have forgot (both)
Anyhow pristine rock still abounds, even in Boulder,
or even Yosemite. it just requires a bit more walking and exploring off the beaten path, a bit of discreetness and discretion, and ("good" or "bad"), you can do most anything you want.
ciao-
Dave Brower
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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If you are forcing us into an either or answer I'd have to say approaching climbing in a "trad only" style could be considered noble. Chopping someone elses route would be considered selfish.
Maybe.
Prod.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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They Do, seem to abide, side by side, in various places in the south east.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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I like your query Ron. I do think there is room for both. I DO value everything the extreme trad side has to say about why they believe what they believe. Before this whole thing happened, I considered myself to be pretty far into the unbending ethics side of things, but now I'm not so sure. There's a lot of shades of grey out there, and I guess I've become more of a realist than my previous idealist. One thing I can say though, is that it doesn't impress me when someone expects to be listened to, but does no listening of their own, and refuses to address valid points or questions about their own past, whilst criticizing others and catastrophizing with incredibly lame slippery slopes. Oh well, nobody is perfect. Well, there was that one perfect f*#ker, but we all know what happened to him. ;)
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jstan
climber
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This particular schism in the thread seems not to come at a fortunate time. I would urge everyone to visit all the other branches so as to track the whole.
I will try to describe how this same discussion developed in a Climbers's meeting in the early 70's. Because of the realities it avoided what, to me, appears to be a weakness developing here. In that meeting called to decide the future of the Gunks everyone was physically present. Everyone thought through very carefully before they spoke what they would say and what they thought to be most important. Everyone was, physically, leaning forward in their chair anxious to hear everything. The thoughts collected this way were largely unaffected by what had been said before. Finally, each person was brief and knew they would probably get just one chance.
In that environment after less than an hour, we were moving out on the path forward. A path that led to success in a little over two years. When people have decided together how they want to move out, things go quickly.
Because of its structure a discussion over the net is different and we all are still learning its strengths and weaknesses. This is all new ground which actually makes it pretty exciting. We learn quickly so there is no reason to despair of our eventual success.
Carry on.
JayBro:
Early in the history of the Southeastern Climbers' Coalition I was invited down to the mountains to speak to their conference just north of Atlanta. That conference was conducted in a manner very similar to the Gunks climbers's meeting described above. I saw in that group the same energy and easy exchange between members that I saw in the Gunks and I see today at Facelift.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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As a trad climber for 30 years,when sport,and rap bolting,wholesale bolting if you will,came on the scene,I don't think anyone ever imagined we'd be discussing"sport cliffs",or people would be crying about the elitist aspect of owning a trad rack,or not being able to afford yada yada.I never imagined people would place bolts next to cracks,or grid bolt.
We were sold this crap as a way to utilize underused areas etc. etc..
Sportos promote the idea that bolting like this is essential to the developement of the sport.It's not.Cobra crack is 5.14,on gear.The so-called leading edge is barely a whisker ahead,with bolts every five feet and whaaa I can't even clip my own bolts so left my draws in place.Yer not even carrying a rack for Christsakes.
I wish we had nipped it in the bud.The Farley group got Ken Nichols dragged in to court.In the process a picture of the cliff was posted.It's plenty featured enough for trad,did not need to be bolted at all.No wonder the guy is mad.The courts think it should be safe,that surprise you?
Just heard a route I headpointed twenty five years ago was retrobolted by some well meaning dipsh#t.
Road to hell.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2008 - 04:21pm PT
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Tomcat,
you are confusing the issue.
I'm talking about side by side FA ethics, not the deplorable practice of retrobolting and thus superimposing an ethic.
Having had routes I established subsequently retrobolted is bad enough.
But then I get blamed for it too!
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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The classic example being Prince of Darkness and Rock Warrior in Black Velvet Canyon in Red Rocks.
Two routes a few yards apart -different first ascent teams- different visions- one in no way detracting from the other.
There is plenty of room for different climbers to express themselves in different ways.
I would just echo your statement about respecting the vision and hard work of those who put the effort into establishing new routes.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Yeah, it's almost like these arrogant, self-centered, elitists are trying to create a new sport or something!
But what would they call it?
"Climbing"????
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Read an interesting article in the April 19 issue of the Economist. It was a study of testosterone in stock traders. Turns out the highest levels of testosterone are measured in the anticipatory stage of gaining (or losing), and not in the actual gaining.
I think when whoever-it-was wrote about holding other people down and punching them in the face for 5 minutes, all this discussion took a turn for the worst.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"With all due respect, which isn't much, you are little too full of yourself."
Geez, Jody maybe a little introspection before posing? just sayin'...
Or, maybe you wanted it to come out/troll that way?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Somebody should punch that Bachar dude in the neck!
That'll shut him up....
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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June 2nd eh?
Coz and I will show up with our badges!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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They're just speaking their mind Jody, like you.
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jstan
climber
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I dunno Jody. Seems to me you are a pretty famous photgrapher. If you aren't, then as you improve and take more and more good stuff - you will be.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2008 - 09:40pm PT
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"I know. Let's have a spelling contest."
Val Kilmer
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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I no how to spell.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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-- is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?
trad being the Gritstone like ethic? or 'ground up' ethic?
Gristone ethic would mean no bolts, thus no impact if no bolts go in. Top down or ground up is irrelevant in that no bolt goes in to have an impact on another and thus an 'ethical' import.
'ground up' by contrast, is merely a matter of style, but when it includes bolts, it has certain outputs vis a vis how the route turns out.
it seems that any bolt is merely a selfish act. So saying 'merely' is trying to get at something else.
A bolt is not necessary, ever. Thus it must be an expression of self. So is inherently selfish whether blaced by GU or TD methods.
As for noble, the exalted moral or character reference I would suspect eytomologically derives from a historical sense where those with power and influence were decided by rank and or title and thereby determined was was called 'noble.'
Maybe if we ask a different question; e.g. does the method of establishing climbs that have some bolt protection have some value other than self expression?
Noble from dictionary.com...
1. distinguished by rank or title.
2. pertaining to persons so distinguished.
3. of, belonging to, or constituting a hereditary class that has special social or political status in a country or state; of or pertaining to the aristocracy.
4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
5. admirable in dignity of conception, manner of expression, execution, or composition: a noble poem.
6. very impressive or imposing in appearance; stately; magnificent: a noble monument.
7. of an admirably high quality; notably superior; excellent.
8. famous; illustrious; renowned.
9. Chemistry. inert; chemically inactive.
10. Falconry. (of a hawk) having excellent qualities or abilities.
–noun 11. a person of noble birth or rank; nobleman or noblewoman.
12. a former gold coin of England, first issued in 1346 by Edward III, equal to half a mark or 6s. 8d., replaced in 1464 under Edward IV by the rose noble.
13. (in Britain) a peer.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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I liked the shoot off better.
Jody, aren't you an officer?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jody = Poseur
Think Officer Dangle of Reno 911
He is just winding you guys up. He wouldn't know a rap bolter from a rap singer.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Yeah... I'm driving up just to see how high your hem line is....
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jstan
climber
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Werner told me how one needs to behave here. I will do as he suggested. I will do as he suggested.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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"Maybe the back side of Half dome should have been ..."
... left alone in the olden days, so that 21st century Yosemite climbers had an almost pristene wall to establish new routes on, in the style and methods of their own day.
That's basically what happened, no? It was a generous gesture by all those old famous dudes, to leave such a big piece of rock for those of the future.
BTW, I think routes established by differing methods, right next to each other, mostly go totally unnoticed. I'm sure that most of us have climbed routes established on rap without even knowing it. Or caring enough to conduct an indepth inquiry first. We just look up, say 'that looks nice', and start climbing.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Whats the deal with June 2nd? Is there going to be a scheduled brawl at El Cap bridge? Becareful some of the tough guys here may bring their 'biner brass knuckles or some other inventive climbing gear weapons which we have heard about on previous threads.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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I guess that's why we call them 'climbing' routes, instead of 'descending' routes.
Well said Riley. You make good points.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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radical said El Cap certainly wouldn't be El Cap anymore if there were bolt ladders all over it.. I thought it did have a bunch of bolt ladders? they are even named after some of those famous dudes who often get mentioned when the discussion turns to bolts.....
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Parachuting to the top of Mt Everest!?
I suspect that is a first still waiting to happen.
Dropping stuff on top from over 30,000 feet would also be a noteworthy feat!
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jstan
climber
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Someone has been hacking my computer and stole my plan for doing Everest in the hardest way! Get to be a billionaire, and invent a helicopter that can hover at 40,000 feet. Rather than risk getting snow on my wing tips I can just pee on the summit from the helicopter. I have contracted with Pixar for the movie showing me doing the E scale drawings for the copter. Going to be an exciting movie. Anyone interested in advanced sale tickets?
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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shit i wish i wasn't 3000 miles away from the valley right now! June 2nd sounds like a good time to me..
I'm with the old school.. Coz and Bachar i got your back here in WV!!!!
you start at the bottom and go to the top. anything else is just a mere image of climbing..
either way, the sport has been fractured for 20 years and now with half dome the target of sport bolting, climbing is done. lets just call it like it is now: SPORT CLIMBING...
real climbing died in the 80's...
ks
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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They say making the first billion is the hard part!
If you have only made your first million, maybe you could spend a couple hundred grand on a balloon, with a grappling hook and an electric winch.
Snag the summit as you are blowing by, and then descend to the summit!
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couchmaster
climber
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Piton Ron asked: "So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?
I think there can be elements of both in there. If you are trying to put up a ground up onsight FA and have a handdrill for that blank section, there is no question that it isn't a deeper game, a more challenging one as well. You can't stop and put a bolt where you need it, but where the route will dictate you can stance (or hook depending on where or who you are).
One you have done that route, per the predominant ethic today, no one else can add any bolts. The FA, often feeling grateful to have made it out alive, now feels "Proud" at their display of balls and luck at having survived and leave the route intact so that others can be aware of how good of a climber they were. In Coz's case, as he says, he can't or won't go back to try Southern Belle ever again unless a great climber leads all the pitches and he gets a toprope as it is too difficult, dngerous and frightening for him now.
Even Coz, by his own admission, can't climb a route which he, by climbing it as he did, dictated and forced that style on all others now. Whats the point of that?
Conversely, as jstan says, if you accept that all technology can be utilized, then just get a helicopter and fly to the top and you're done. Surely, as Robbins endlessly postulated, we need to draw a line in the "technological sand": Bacher, Kurt and Coz see that line and are trying to get everyone else to accept that point that they are detailing should be universally accepted. Kurt has rapbolted where rapbolting is appropriate and is the accepted dominant ethic. Not in the valley though.
I thought that having different areas keeping and maintaining different traditions to be a great idea. Growing up, the route on 1/2 dome, challenges that area's predominant historical ethic, and seems somewhat wrong for doing so. Doug has outlined his reasons they did that approach and top downed the upper part. It makes sense, and I believe it is a good thing for this route: yet that area's predominant historical ethic line in the sand did get crossed in a big way through such an act. In that I feel sadness and understand the loss which the folks who have climbed there a lot feel. It's a sad thing for sure.
Up next: helicopters? Meantime, Coz and no one else can - or wants to, try Southern Belle.
(PS, Jody, please stop being an ass.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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I'm so glad that people are seriously considering the titled question of this thread. When I started it I feared that it might quickly degenerate into a polarized camp with champions actually assigning a place to join combat egged on by provocateurs from a state where family values means marrying your cousin (not that there's anything wrong with it).
Imagine my pleasant surprise to find you all in easy chairs wearing tweed jackets slowly swooshing your cognac snifters and pondering the ramifications of the other's positions.
If only Werner would put away that twinkie...
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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If climbing is dead, I think the use of the power drill played a major role in it's death. I also feel that anyone who put up a route with a power drill, regardless of the style, contributed to it's demise.
For me it's still alive. Today I will probably be plugging in gear scared out of my mind and loving it, tomorrow enjoying some clip up(descending route) and loving that too. I will probablybe still be scared on the clip up, what a wuss.
Jeff
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I hate bolts. I'll all against them.
They cost money and it's work to drill em. What could be worse?
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Maybe some alterations to that ethic would be more universally acceptable. "
I wonder which universe?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Good point, Karl.
Nerd alert.
The "rules" agreed to by the largest set of people apply. That is what I meant by "more universal".
Somewhere between an anarchical approach, and a tyrannical approach may lie some democratic common ground.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"The "rules" agreed to by the largest set of people apply. That is what I meant by "more universal".
Somewhere between an anarchical approach, and a tyrannical approach may lie some democratic common ground. "
TIG, I don't entirely disagree with all of your rules. There's a lot of gray area and individual cases out there. How do climbers go from a culture where inclusion depends on knowing the nuances and navigating just how far to push the limits, and predefined limits.
I'm listening to a an audiobook in the inquisition. Seems like there used to be a universe where the people, church and state almost universally agreed that burning at the state was proper remedy for heretics who wouldn't renounce their beliefs.
Peace
Karl
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Karl, that burning stake thing falls under the "sh*t happens" rule.
"The Black Swan" is an interesting read. Nobody can predict what happens in most of the world. Ironically, in many cases, the "experts" are often the worst at predictions, and the surest that they are correct.
Harding would not have predicted the stopper (or he would have invented it). We can no more predict how things might change in the future. We can guess that the number of climbers will continue to grow. Then again, it might be outlawed entirely. (It is against the law to climb in NJ State Parks without filling out a waiver. That is new. It used to be just plain illegal, after it was completely legal.)
It does seem that we can confidently predict that things will change, but just not how.
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jstan
climber
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Rather a while ago Fritz Wiessner was trying his best to get everyone to go over and climb in Dresden. It is a very soft sandstone, I understand, and back in the early 1900's the climbers there were into climbing without shoes as this was less damaging to the rock and there was strict regulation as regards artificial fixed protection. Apparently it was pretty hairy. You can find links and descriptions easily so I won't babble on further.
What's happening here and now, is people are talking calmly about what we want the future to be like. We have the technology to get rid of all the Dresdens and gain another one huindred or two hundred thousand "classic" routes or we can have areas or even parts of areas where we think, "I'll have to get my sh*t together before I go there." Or even, "No one has managed to get up that mother. Holy moly!"
It is simply a choice. Posters in this thread realize no one of us outweighs any other person and are accepting of the need to provide room for all. If I were asked what is by far the most important route done in the past year I would have to say, "Ron's Road to Hell thread."
The Gunby trip report is right behind it though. If you have your head on straight there is any amount of fun you want up there.
That's what we all want.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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let's all go to Dresden. How nutty are stuffed knots for protection!!!!
kwazy!
Party in Dresden 2009?
I'm sure Todd G has a guidebook.
oh, snap, just realized, the person who I would want to climb with most (see other thread) is Bernd Arnold!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2008 - 01:33pm PT
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What's this "Ron's" shlt??!
Why do I have to get saddled with the blame?
I really DO think the question is worth asking, and can't help but note that those who seem most inclined to view it as the road to Hell tend to be those that are pot committed to their school and don't wish to see their accomplishments crowded upon.
Perfectly understandable human nature, but is it reasonable to allow elitism to dictate what the hordes climb upon? Don't they get a vote?
I've put up some of my best routes solo. Would it then be reasonable for me to claim that, having set the bar at that level, any more new routes in that area should be put up solo or not at all?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Every bolt speaks for itself. The roads being paved with them speak to a 'tyranny of democracy' in a brave new world where risk is an unacceptable abberation to be collectively eliminated rather than individually managed. Climbing was not preempted to the shadowy status of "adventure climbing" because the vast majority of climbers are better, stronger, smarter, or braver - it has been cast into this categorical cage like a 'dangerous' zoo animal so that people might safely 'admire' the wild from behind the railing.
All the rest is a drive towards climbing as risk-free entertainment and maybe a little candor from the other side would be in order relative to honestly acknowledging that is the real utility of the vast majority of the bolts being placed today. That an assured intact return to our 'normal' selves and families is the priority today because we have collectively 'grown up' and cast off the clearly selfish ways of our youths. I personally find it all very convenient.
And frankly, I also find the introduction of the higher purpose and value of marriage and parenting into the discussion a bit disconcerting - it's almost as if [aging] climbers collectively slapped themselves on the forehead and discovered they have responsibilities. And I'm not sure which is more disconcerting - the simple act of this discovery, that apparently it's a new idea to many, or that FAs are now a family planning matter because of it.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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"So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?"
Neither. They are both just opinions. Something past generations of climbers who frequent the internet have an endless supply of.
Thank whatever deity you worship that todays climbers ignore old fools and actually are more interested in climbing than talking about it. Bolts or no bolts, its still just as cool as it ever was...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Except the vast majority of it today is wholly bolt dependent so how 'cool' that is remains a matter of [endless] opinion.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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"Except the vast majority of it today is wholly bolt dependent so how 'cool' that is remains a matter of [endless] opinion."
You are delusional. Or, maybe things are really that f*#ked up in the pacific northwest?! Is every crag and crack up there bolted?
Sounds like time for a roadtrip either way.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Just got back from climbing at Eldo last weekend, thanks.
Delusional? Not at all - no one has the real stats - but I'd guess that 80-85% of the people who put on a harness to rock climb this weekend were climbing bolted routes and that that is the case every day in the US. I'd say just the opposite - you're in denial.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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A rumble in the park
the grus and the raps
El Cap Bridge
who's gonna win?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Not in denial. I am in the "I dont give a sh#t how others climb" category. Why get your panties all in a bunch over something that doesnt affect you? Choose a crack line and enjoy. Cheers
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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If I wore panties and those bolts didn't affect me then I would. As it is though...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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At least the majority agree that bolted cracks SUCK!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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High altitude drop. $10,000.
Landing on the peak, priceless!
Getting down alive, still a gamble.
Extremely exposed and often hit directly by the Jet wind - the summit of Everest is the windiest place on Earth. The highest forecasted wind speed during our research period (2 latest years), was 78 m/s (175miles/hour) on Feb 6, 2004. This is well above the 156 miles/hour threshold for a Category 5 Hurricane.
Kick-ass winter
But it’s not the maximum wind speed that makes Everest summit extremely windy, it’s the consistency of high winds, especially during autumn and winter. From October 20 until end of March, there is an almost constant Category 1 Hurricane (32m/s - 74 miles/hour) pounding the summit of Everest. During this period 3 out of 4 days experience above 32 ms/74 mph.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Issue # 1 for me,like most people interested in new routes,I've passed up lot's of stuff,showed what I think of as restraint,because it was going to take too many bolts.That mindset seems entirely gone today.
Issue #2 are the do-gooders.Those selfless folks that grid bolt cliffs,they have dozens of rap bolted routes,all done in just their particular style and mode.They paid for a Bosch and by god their gonna use it.What's left for the next generation,and the one after them?Well there is lot's of rock along the Colorado if yer willing to hike a little.....
Issue #3 This type of usage is finite.Go to Rumney,look at the place and ask yourself if you think this approach is anywhere near sustainable.We are the only user group allowed to drill holes,place metal anchors,rub chalk around.Yes,I know the dirtbikers are riding on BLM land,but you know if they drilled two holes and placed two bolts to hold their bikes up the man would come down on them like white on rice.Everybody else is not allowed to pick up a rock.Any other group,the slings would be litter.
Rumney is done with a tacit agreement with the Forest Service.It will not surprise me in the least if the end result is that the FS uses it as an example of what happens when we allow climbers free reign.
Look at the routes on English Grit.Look what they have accomplished.Do you think Whillans and Brown saw it coming?
A start would be,motorised drilling ground up only.Rap drilling by hand only,to slow the pace.
The pace.Sportos gotta have a zillion routes bolted,because they don't fill the soul.That's the problem.
I stayed outta the GU thread.I don't climb that hard,and I'm from the East.They could have rapped down to find the right way,and the stances,and bolted on the lead.Even that would have been better.
I got no problem with hooks.Every bolt(4)I've placed was from hooks.
Tom Stryker
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Sorry lads but I have put in a lot of work to make the ElCap Bridge an icon of the Yosemite climbing scene and will not allow the hormonally driven to ruin the scene there... so you will have to find another place to disrespect.. It is not nice to screw with the Bridge!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It seems like the solution to this and many other threads (e.g. fixed ropes at the Cookie) might be to install a plank on the El Cap bridge. Maybe several planks. Pirates could play pirate with it, and even talk like pirates. Real and imaginary ethical transgressors could be made to walk the plank. Some hot tempers might be cooled down. A few fish might get concussions - collateral damage. Some climbers would get a much needed bath. As the only fixed gear would be the plank(s), and there wouldn't be any other impacts, the NPS should be OK with it.
All going well, it would become an attraction at Disney Yosemite. Though don't be counting on the FaceLift crew to clean up any messes. :-)
What's not to like about it?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sorry Jody... but the elitists make the rules. Not just in climbing. In life.
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WBraun
climber
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With consequences ......
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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WWABD
WWAHD
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WBraun
climber
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Yes .....
Break the law, and then punishment.
I think you are familiar with that aspect.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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What the wab wah?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nixon said, if the president does it, then it's not against the law.
Applies to police too?
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James
climber
not bivying in the boulders Jack
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Cool bold school climber versus law officer. Who will the monkeys support?
Fisticuffs on El Cap bridge! I'll be taking bets...and handing rotten tomatoes to the monkeys. Ha! Classic.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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What Would Al Bundy Do?
What Would Adrian Burgess Do?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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hehe. Sort of like WWJD.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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To the original post, I think the traditional climbers to a large extent have been painted with an unfair claim that they are demonizing those with a different view. At one point in time I had read all the SFHD threads, and I could have sworn there were more claimbs of trads being fascists that wanted everyone to climb like, then actual posts by trad climbers stating such, if there were any such posts at all.
Seems to me the most obnoxious posts by were one of the FA party and his buddy basically saying, F you I'll climb what I want, how I want. Anyone that says different is a has been. Critisizing my climbing style is taking food out of my kids mouth.
Personally I'd say folks that have a financial interest in their first ascent, whatever style they claimb have alterior motives that seem to taint how and why they climb, and perhaps how they treat others.
I'm blown away by the thought that the traditional ground up approach is sellfish, I always figured it was the bolt the heck out of every rock to get your name in the guidebooks and climbing mags that was the sellfish aproach.
As an answer to the noble or sellfish question, ask yourself what type of ascent gives you the greatest feeling of fulfillment. My most satisfying climbs were always approached at the base, and climbed w/o falling. Sure I had my share of climbs that were technically more difficult that had a rest or ten, and I never fealt that I could honestly consider that as a valid ascent. I never climbed to brag about the experience, it has always been very personal. And I can't just bs myself, as whats the point?
I know alot of folks just don't understand the traditional approach, as it is anethema to how they lead the rest of their lives.
I really don't care how other people or what floats their boat. But I am very concerned about how the proliferation of fixed anchors in National Parks will affect access to all of us. Especially the F you we'll climb what and how we want attititude and the resulting conflict can have very real consequences. At some point somebody will approach the man, saying something should be done, and it's almost guranteed none of us will like what get's done to us.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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Climbers aren't really good fighters, anyway. You can take 'em. Al Bundy would shrug....Adrian might, too, but I dunno. Probably knot.
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WBraun
climber
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Hey Curt
I saw Mulligan take on two big rednecks outside the Mountain Room bar back in the day. Threw one of em down and beat the crap out of him.
Just before they came to blows the big redneck said: "Don't fuk with me as I'm stronger than a bull".
Hahahaha
Ask George Meyers, he was there.
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James
climber
not bivying in the boulders Jack
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Jody,
You implied as much.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Not Al Bundy.
A famous American pair, though.
Highly linked to this topic - given the drift.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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nope
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Maybe the real question is, what would people do if there weren't magazines to spray about their climbs?
The vertical landscape around the planet would be a different place, indeed.
Though I don't know Sean at all, it doesn't really seem to me that his primary motivation was the F&G (fame and glory). But who knows?
Problem is, top-down style + buncha dudes wanting a Hot Flash = potential misuse of the resource.
(yeah, yeah, I know, argument #29, rehashed with a slight twist, yada yada...)
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Owlman
Trad climber
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June 2 is my birthday!!
Is there gonna be a fight at the Bridge??!!
SWEEEEEETTTTTT!!!
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Owlman
Trad climber
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Can we line up on June 2 and really go at it?
I mean Colonial Style, you know, with the blue coats on one side (the trads ofcourse), and the top ropers on the other side of the meadow?
Black Powder guns only.
Or Spears?
Spears!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Hmmmmnnnn
Toss em over the bridge into the Merced?
Ok, I'll bring Walleye ......then try toss him in.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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From Climbing In North America by Chris Jones
©1976 by The Regent of the University of California
page 361
"The Bolting Issue
On the North American Wall and elsewhere the leading Yosemite climbers made a major effort to avoid placing bolts. They would go into extreme A5 nailing and hang sky hooks from tiny flakes rather than drill a hole. They saw bolts as radically different from pitons. With bolts, climbers were free of the natural configuration of the rock and could go anywhere at will, provided, of course, they had the time and equipment. The unrestrained use of bolts opened up areas of rock where there were no natural lines and mad success inevitable. These were the major objections to Harding's Leaning Tower route. However, the point at issue during the early 1960s was the use of bolts to avoid difficult nailing or to protect a free climb where better climbers would do without. Unskilled climbers were using bolts to overcome routes that were beyond them when using "traditional" means. The issue was hotly debated around campfires and in the pages of Summit, from Chouinard's "Are Bolts Being Placed by Too Many Unqualified Climbers?" through a whole spectrum of attack and counterattack. The purists wanted to keep climbing difficult. They despised the success-at-any-cost attitude of the bolting enthusiasts.
How Frank Smythe would have smiled to hear his arguments brought up to date!
In this debate the purists were partially successful. There have been outbreaks of bolting on established routes, but there is now nothing like the proliferation of earlier days. However, the issue of whether bolts should be used to connect up blank areas of rock, to create direct routes or "directissimas," or even used at all was not then addressed. It has not been resolved to this day."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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From Climbing In North America by Chris Jones
©1976 by The Regent of the University of California
page 368-369
(In the section titled Big Wall Ethics).
"The saga of the Dawn Wall was far from ended. The media hailed it as the greatest climb since Mount Everest, and the protagonists became instant folk heros. Climbers were not so sure about the merits of the Dawn Wall. One aspect of the climb that could not be challenged was the guts that Harding and Caldwell had shown. While their tenacity was universally admired, their heavy reliance on drilled holes resurrected the bolting controversy once again.
Climbers hardly bothered to question the bolting on Half Dome's Tis-sa-ack and south face, the first because it was Robbins, the second because it was a route that few cared about. Why was the Dawn Wall different? It was a recognized problem on which others had tried and failed using "legitimate" means, that is, accepting a constraint on the number of bolts. The 300 drilled holes seemed outrageous, and then there was the incredible publicity.
Are bolts ever justified? A handful of first-class European climbers maintained they are not. If they are, what proportion of bolting is acceptable? The heart of the argument is that by the tedious but relatively simple expedient of bolting, any blank rock can be climbed, that bolting is not in the true spirit of mountaineering, that it threatens the foundations of the sport. It all comes back to Frank Smythe's thought, "It is knowing where to draw the line that counts in life."
While climbers up and down the country argued the merits of the Dawn Wall, Robbins decided to make the second ascent and "erase" the climb by chopping out the bolts. This was no easy decision. In taking such an unprecedented step, he was laying his reputation on the line. He and Don Lauria spent the first day removing bolts. During the first bivouac doubts about their action assailed them. They continued to the top in another five days without removing any more bolts. Although the route was not erased, Robbins had made a strong statement.
The Dawn Wall became a symbol of the various schools of thought in climbing. Whatever the merits of the actions on the Dawn Wall, the purists' concern that bolting not get out of hand seems to have been realized. Subsequent routes on El Cap averaged around sixty bolts. Those outside the gut level of the sport may consider this concern over ethics far too heavy and serious. Does it really matter? The answer depends on your viewpoint. Does the sportsman take an automatic weapon to kill his tiger?"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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From Climbing In North America by Chris Jones
©1976 by The Regent of the University of California
page 140-141
(In the chapter THE SIERRANS).
"On Snowpatch and Shiprock the Sierrans convincingly demonstrated the excellence of their granite gymnasium, Yosemite Valley. Back in the valley, climbing was on the move. Successive attempts on the Lost Arrow Chimney, "the nightmare of all those who inspected it closely," inched the route upward. A new generation of climbers was making its mark. Typical of the newcomers were Fritz Lippmann, Robin Hansen and their friends, the self-styled "goose gutters." The active encouragement of beginners was a strong tradition on R.C.S. outings. The goose gutters felt this cut too heavily into their climbing time. If the Sierrans scheduled a weekend meet, the goose gutters went elsewhere to avoid the crowds. However, this shift from group to individual climbing was not the real concern. What bothered the original R.C.S. members was the newcomers' extensive use of direct aid. It was an ironic twist. Aid climbing had brought censure on the original R.C.S. group. The older generation also considered the newcomers rash. They criticized their lax attitude to safety and reminded them of Leonard's dictum that should he ever fall, his first thought would be, "What will Underhill say about this in Appalachia?" The newcomers' Arrowhead Chimney climb (not to be confused with the still unclimbed Lost Arrow Chimney) was characterized by Shand as a route "which borders on the suicide climbs of the Wetterstein and the Kaisergebirge."
Were these criticisms the result of a lack of understanding between generations, or was something else involved? If Eichorn's group used pitons on the Higher Cathedral Spire, were not Lippmann and his pals entitled to find their own frontier? After his defeat on Shiprock, Coloradan Carl Blaurock had written, "Will someone find the key to the route by which the summit may be finally obtained, or if it is to be reached, will it be by methods not considered ethical?" Did the end justify the means? The debate was opened, but it was a debate that would have to wait. When Lippmann got down from the Arrowhead Chimney, Yosemite's age of innocence was over. It was December 7, 1941."
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jody
You may have strong words
but Bachar has a stronger mind.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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En el pais de los ciegos, el tuerto es el rey.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Expediency
Frank Smythe
British climbers may justly consider themselves free from taints of mechanisation and nationalism. For the most part they have always looked upon mountain climbing as a sport in the purest sense of the word, a test of strength and skill in surmounting natural obstacles undertaken in accordance with traditional rules, and governed by the love of the thing for its own sake. At the same time, they cannot be wholly absolved from the charge of expediency. There exists, or has existed, a school of thought that Everest must be climbed, if not by traditional methods legitimately augmented by the best that manufacturers can supply in the way of food, specially suitable clothing and the usual mountaineering equipment, then by the employment of oxygen breathing apparatus. It is true that the diminished oxygen content in the air near the highest summit of the world suggests the use of such an apparatus; there is little enjoyment to be had out of climbing without it at the highest altitudes of the Himalayas; at the same time, there would to my mind, be singularly little satisfaction in reaching the summit of Mount Everest with oxygen apparatus, and any satisfaction in so doing would be offset by the thought that perhaps it might be possible to get there without it. It is certain that were Everest to be climbed with oxygen apparatus, mountaineering tradition -- were it worth anything -- would very soon demand a non-apparatus ascent. This cult of expediency, as exemplified by the scientific experts, is to my mind one of the evils of the present age. Let us keep mountaineering clean and undebased even on the highest peaks of the Himalayas. Let us win through to the top of Everest for the love of the thing, not because it is expedient to get there. Expediency and good sportsmanship simply do not go together.
If any charge can be preferred against mountaineers as a whole it is that they have taken their achievements too seriously. I have been as guilty as any in that respect. I now realise that it is the joy, the good comradeship, the climbing that matter in mountaineering, not the attainment of the objective. Mummery was the great apostle of the joy of mountaineering, and it is impossible to associate such a character, bubbling over with irrepressible gaiety, conscious always that it was the game that mattered and not its prizes, with the dour exponent of the expedient in mountaineering to-day, with his pitons and his oxygen apparatus and, not least, a nationally-minded Press to spur him on to some fresh 'conquest' for the fancied honour and glory of his Fatherland. It is essential to the well-being of mountaineering not to overburden it with mechanical aids but to keep it as simple as possible.
from MECHANISED MOUNTAINEERING: FELL AND ROCK CLIMBING CLUB JOURNAL 1942
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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somebody's got an eye around here?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The Murder of the Impossible
Reinhold Messner
What have I personally got against "direttissimas"? Nothing at all; in fact I
think that the "falling drop of water" route is one of the most logical things
that exists. Of course it always existed - so long as the mountain permits it. But
sometimes the line of weakness wanders to the left or the right of this line; and
the we see climbers - those on the first ascent , I mean - going straight on up as
if it weren't so, striking in bolts of course. Why do they go that way? "For the
sake of freedom," they say; but they don't realize that they are slaves of the
plumbline.
They have a horror of deviations. "In the face of difficulties, logic commands one
not to avoid them, but to overcome them," declares Paul Claudel. And that's what
the 'direttissma' protagonists say, too, knowing from the start that the equipment
they have will get them over any obstacle. They are therefore talking about
problems which no longer exist. Could the mountain stop them with unexpected
difficulties? They smile: those times are long past! The impossible in
mountaineering has been eliminated, murdered by the direttissima.
Yet direttissimas would not in themselves be so bad were it not for the fact that
the spirit of that guides them has infiltrated the entire field of climbing. Take
a climber o a rock face, iron rungs beneath his feet and all around him only
yellow, overhanging rock. Already tired, he bores another hole above the last peg.
He won't give up. Stubbornly, bolt by bolt, he goes on. His way, and none other,
must be forced up the face.
Expansion bolts are taken for granted nowadays; they are kept to hand just in case
some difficulty cannot be overcome by ordinary methods. Today's climber doesn't
want to cut himself off from the possibility of retreat: he carries his courage in
his rucksack, in the form of bolts and equipment. Rock faces are no longer
overcome by climbing skill, but are humbled, pitch by pitch, by methodical manual
labor; what isn't done today will be done tomorrow. Free-climbing routes are
dangerous, so the are protected by pegs. Ambitions are no longer build on skill,
but on equipment and the length of time available. The decisive factor isn't
courage, but technique; an ascent may take days and days, and the pegs and bolts
counted in the hundreds. Retreat has become dishonorable, because everyone knows
now that a combination of bolts and singlemindedness will get you up anything,
even the most repulsive-looking direttissima.
Times change, and with them concepts and values. Faith in equipment has replaced
faith in oneself; a team is admired for the number of bivouacs it makes, while the
courage of those who still climb "free" is derided as a manifestation of lack of
conscientiousness.
Who has polluted the pure spring of mountaineering?
The innovators perhaps wanted only to get closer to the limits of possibility.
Today, however, every single limit has vanished, been erased. In principle, it
didn't seem to be a serious matter, but ten years have sufficed to eliminate the
word 'impossible' from the mountaineering vocabulary.
Progress? Today, ten years from the start of it all, there are a lot of people who
don't care where they put bolts, whether on new routes or on classic ones. People
are drilling more and more and climbing less and less.
"Impossible": it doesn't exist anymore. The dragon is dead, poisoned, and the hero
Siegfried is unemployed. Now anyone can work on a rock face, using tools to bend
it to his own idea of possibility.
Some people foresaw this a while ago, but they went on drilling, both on
direttissimas and on other climbs, until the lost the taste for climbing: why
dare, why gamble, when you can proceed in perfect safety? And so they become the
prophets of the direttissima: "Don't waste your time on classic routes - learn to
drill, learn to use your equipment. Be cunning: If you want to be successful, use
every means you can get round the mountain. The era of direttissima has barely
begun: every peak awaits its plumbline route. There's no rush, for a mountain
can't run away - nor can it defend itself."
"Done the direttissima yet? And the super diretissima?" These are the criteria by
which mountaineering prowess is measured nowadays. And so the young men go off,
crawl up the ladder of bolts, and then ask the next ones: "done the direttissima
yet?"
Anyone who doesn't play ball is laughed at for daring take a stand against current
opinion. The plumbline generation has already consolidated itself and has
thoughtlessly killed the ideal of the impossible. Anyone who doesn't oppose this
makes himself an accomplice of the murderers. When future mountaineers open their
eyes and realize what has happened, it will be too late: the impossible (and with
it, risk) will be buried, rotted away, and forgotten forever.
All is not yet lost, however, although 'they' are returning the attack; and even
if it's not always the same people, it'll be other people similar to them. Long
before they attack, they'll make a great noise, and once again any warning will be
useless. They'll be ambitious and they'll have long holidays - and some new 'last
great problem' will be resolved. They'll leave more photographs at the hut, as
historical documents, showing a dead straight line of dots running from the base
to summit - and on the face itself, will once again inform us that "Man has
achieved the impossible."
If people have already been driven to the idea of establishing a set of rules of
conduct, it means that the position is serious; but we young people don't want a
mountaineering code. On the contrary, "up there we want to find long, hard days,
days when we don't know in the morning what the evening will bring". But for how
much longer will we be able to have this?
I'm worried about that dead dragon: we should do something before the impossible
is finally interred. We have hurled ourselves, in a fury of pegs and bolts, on
increasingly savage rock faces: the next generation will have to know how to free
itself from all these unnecessary trappings. We have learned from the plumbline
routes; our successors will once again have to reach the summits by other routes.
It's time we repaid our debts and searched again for the limits of possibility -
for we must have such limits if we are going to use the virtue of courage to
approach them. And we must reach them. Where else will be able to find refuge in
our flight from the oppression of everyday humdrum routine? In the Himalaya? In
the Andes? Yes certainly if we can get there; but for most of us there'll only be
these old Alps.
So let's save the dragon; and in the future let's follow the road that past
climbers marked out. I'm convinced it's still the right one.
Put on your boots and get going. If you've got a companion, take a rope with you
and a couple of pitons for your belays, but nothing else. I'm already on my way,
ready for anything - even for retreat, if I meet the impossible. I'm not going to
be killing any dragons, but if anyone wants to come with me, we'll go to the top
together on the routes we can do without branding ourselves murderers.
 Mountain #15, 1971
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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From Robin Campbell's essay "Climbing Ethics"
"... I will begin by outlining a minimal set of 'Categorical Imperatives for Ethical Mountaineers'. These are:
1. Climb the Mountains
2. Test Your Skill
3. Test Your Nerve
4. Love the Mountains
These, I think can all be supported without controversy in the sense that most climbers would accept them as minimal conditions for being a Good Mountaineer. 1 is so obvious it is usually overlooked; 2 and 3 have been extensively discussed - they were dealt with by Lito Tejada-Flores, in his widely published article, [url="http://home.comcast.net/~e.hartouni/doc/Games_Climbers_Play.txt"]Games Climbers Play[/url], and they are much in the mind of all normal mountaineers (though 3 is often rejected by the serious-business brigade); 4 is perhaps the most intriguing and the one about which I shall have most to say...
Love the Mountains
I suggest that this imperative should be interpreted quite literally, so that we treat the mountains as we would treat a lover. Of course, the conjugal relationship is somewhat promiscuous -- there are a lot of us and a lot of them and each of us loves all of them. It is as a result of 'love the mountains' that climbers deplore the acts of defacement and defilement to which our mountains are so often subjected. Defacement by chairlifts, railways, fixed ropes, paintmarks, pegmarks, rubbish, beaten paths - all are acts of assault upon a loved one and are therefore deplorable. Defilement by excessive indiscriminate promiscuity -- so-called 'people pollution' -- is also deplorable, particularly so when the people concerned do not love mountains. Elitist attitudes of this sort were forged a long time ago. On that celebrated occasion when Moses climbed Mount Sinai to receive those more important Ethical Imperatives, the Lord was very specific with respect to this point about how the mountain should be treated by the rank and file. First of all He informed Moses that He had sanctified the mountain and then warned him of the dire consequences that would befall any of his people who set foot on the mountain. For good measure He ordered Moses to instruct his menfolk not to 'come at their wives' for three days!
A second consequence of this Fourth Imperative is that, like any lover, the mountain should not be treated lightly, should not be taken for granted. And so it here that we derive our proscriptions against the attempting of the unduly difficult or the unduly dangerous. The mountaineer who takes these liberties is taking them with his life but it is no that that we should care about: it is that he is taking liberties with the mountain.
A final implication of this imperative is that rape is unethical: the mountain must have the chance of turning you down..."
from NATIONAL MOUNTAINEERING CONFERENCE 1974
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Somebody borrow the dart gun from the bear control guys.
Tranquilize Jody so he wakes up decorated.
Illustration Ouch?
PEace
karl
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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James-
We should fight, you can throw me in the river first. Then I will throw you in the river. Then you can Throw me in the river, then I will throw you in the river. I wonder if that would satisfy the blood lust for all these people. One way to know who will win a fight is who has been in the most. There are little tricks some people don't know, like pulling a shirt over someones head. That is a good one.
P
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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from the AAC Historical Use of Fixed Anchors
"2. BOLTS
As with pitons, development and use of the expansion bolt can be traced to Europe early in the 20th century. In 1927, Laurent Grivel, a climbing guide and blacksmith in Chamonix, France, used bolts on the first ascent of Pére Eternal, a 200-foot spire on the north ridge of the Aiguille de la Brenva. Their use continued sporadically in Europe, but was not well documented.
It was not until the well-publicized 1939 ascent of New Mexico’s Shiprock by Sierra Club climbers David Brower, Bestor Robinson, John Dyer and Raffi Bedayan that the expansion bolt really surfaced in the climbing world. The difficult ascent involved the use of 54 pitons, half of them for direct aid, and four expansion bolts “where inadequacy of stance and lack of piton cracks would otherwise have plunged the entire party to their deaths in case of a fall.”
By the late 1940s bolts had become commonplace in American mountaineering, not only as a means of protecting against a fall, but also as a means of facilitating upward progress on flawless rock and as secure rappel anchors. As Richard Leonard and Arnold Wexler wrote in the 1946 Sierra Club Bulletin about the expansion bolt, “It makes the climb no easier—placing one, even on a flat ledge, is a long job—but it permits a lead in safety that might otherwise be quite unjustifiable owing to the belayer’s inability to hold a fall.”
But the ability to place a bolt virtually anywhere made this tool a bit more controversial than pitons, and their permanence offended some. Fred Beckey, arguably America’s most prolific exploratory climber, offered the proponent’s position in a 1949 article in The American Alpine Journal: “I do not believe in blacksmithing a route up a cement wall—that is not climbing—but recently we have met peaks that would be impossible even with aid pitons. The choice remains: to retreat, or to use a few bolts to overcome a flawless pitch.”
The debate over bolt use reached a fevered pitch in 1961, when Yvon Chouinard, a top Yosemite climber and equipment manufacturer, wrote an article in Summit magazine entitled “Are bolts being placed by too many unqualified climbers?” Chouinard commented that, “Due to their low cost and their availability, they have been used far more extensively in the United States than in all other areas combined… [M]any climbers would feel undressed if they approached a rock climb without their ‘bolt kit.’” However, several top climbers wrote letters to the editor opposing Chouinard’s idea that only experienced, technically proficient climbers be allowed to place bolts. The consensus of the opponents was best articulated by Chuck Wilts, a pioneering Sierra climber, who wrote, “I think climbers should accept the general principle ‘to refrain from the use of bolts unless really necessary for the safety of the party if the ascent is to be continued.’”
Though bolts continued to be controversial among climbers, as was reflected in articles and letters in the climbing journals, climbers tended to coalesce around the principle articulated by Wilts. With the exception of sport climbing, an bolt-intensive form of climbing which developed in the late 1980s and is generally practiced at non-wilderness cliffs, climbing has tended to progress to a point where people attempt to climb with as little use of bolts as possible."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Are Bolts Being Placed by Too Many Unqualified Climbers?
Yvon Chouinard
Summit March 1961
During the past few years climbers have become justly concerned with the problems of ethics in the use of bolts in climbing. The use of expansion bolts is difficult to write about and must be treated in the same manner as social morals. The problem is not one of individual taste, but rather one which must be determined by the entire climbing fraternity and adhered to by everyone who climbs. In presenting this article I will attempt to convey my own thoughts and ideals on this subject.
The problem of bolts is very real and grave. Due to their low cost and their availability, they have been used far more extensively in the United States than in all other areas combined. Bolts have been used only recently in Europe and then only on large, severe walls such as the west face of the Petit Dru, Cima Grande direct north face, and the Roda di Vael by expert climbers. Here, in the United States, many climbers would feel undressed if they approached a rock climb without their "bolt kit."
The main objection to bolts is that they permanently mar the beauty of the rock. Bolts also enable inexperienced and unqualified persons to climb routes with comparative ease. Bolts are often a means of making up for inexperience and inadequacies, and I like to think that not every route is for every climber.
Bolts have three uses: as rappel and belay anchors, for protection and for direct aid.
1. Rappelling. This should be a very rare use, as it is almost always possible to use bushes, trees, pitons or a knob of rock as an anchor. A bolt's only use should be on difficult sixth-class pinnacles where good pitons cannot be placed, or in the life and death descents from large walls, where again good pitons cannot be placed.
In 1959, I observed a shocking misuse of bolts for rappelling. On the first ascent of Shiprock only four bolts were used on the entire climb. Now, on one of the rappel points alone, there are five unnecessary bolts in place, three of which are Phillips type without hangers, and two compression studs, also without hangers. None of these five bolts are well placed, and it is possible to put in a good piton nearby.
2. Protection. Whether or not to put in a bolt for protection is a problem which is difficult to solve by an objective set of rules. If a climb has been done several times without bolts, even if it was only climbed by extremely well-qualified climbers, then this is an indication that bolts should not be placed by following parties. If a leader is confronted with a pitch that has been done before without the use of bolts, but feels that since the rock is icy, wet, or just too much for him to lead with any degree of safety, then he should simply descend rather than desecrate the rock with bolts, or risk a fall without them. A route doesn't always have to go, and wet or icy rocks or a less-than-expert leader is never an excuse for placing a bolt.
An outstanding example of an unqualified party choosing to place bolts because of a lack of ability was a team of two climbers who, in 1959, climbed the Lost Arrow Chimney in Yosemite Valley. On one of the pitches, which is normally done free, the party placed six bolts, partially because of the wetness of the rock, but largely because of their lack of ability. The bolts themselves can be removed, but the holes will always be there.
On a first ascent, if the next lead looks like it will be very difficult, dangerous and offers no chance for protection, and if the leader is an excellent and capable climber, then he is justified in placing a bolt. However, it is only justifiable if he thinks that it would be very dangerous even for a better climber than himself. For this reason, it is important of the leader to know his exact capabilities at that moment and to be able to judge a pitch on sight.
3. Direct aid. The problem of misusing bolts on direct aid is one of that can be solved in a far more objective manner, even though it is in this field that most of the misusage of bolts prevails. One of the biggest problems in American climbing today is that too many average, or even above-average, climbers are attempting direct aid climbs which are too difficult for their ability. This leads to bolts being put in place where they would not be necessary if the climber were more expert, and also ruining the route for the experienced climber who rightly belongs there.
The Lost Arrow Spire in Yosemite is a good example of what is happening on many difficult artificial routes in the United States. Several necessary bolts were placed by that great climber John Salathe´, on the first complete ascent. Through the years "climbers" have added more and more unnecessary bolts with the result that the reputation of this magnificent climb has somewhat declined. Because of the decline in the reputation of the spire less capable climbers attempted the route and still more bolts were placed until, in 1957, Mark Powell removed nine bolts that were not placed by Salathe´.
Some of the many reasons why a party would want to place a bolt on a direct aid climb that has previously been done are: inexperience, a short leader, crumbled or overused cracks, or the lack of proper equipment. In none of these reasons, except perhaps in the rare case of crumbled cracks, is the placing of bolts justified. Often a route requires special pitons, such as knifeblades, wide angles, or short wedges. If this is the case, then this information should be included in the guidebooks. With the great variety of pitons being made, especially with the increasing use of alloy steels in their manufacture, it is possible to utilize cracks ranging from hairline thinness to over six inches wide. Lack of any type of piton or equipment is never an excuse for the placing of a bolt.
Only the very experienced and expert climber should even own a "bolt kit." It is incomprehensible for the average climber to know just what can be climbed safely by the expert on either free or artificial ground by utilizing small holds in combination with poor direct aid pitons, by pendulums around blind corners, tension traverses, arrangement of slings, and by the use of special pitons.
Never should a bolt be placed that is just good enough to enable the party to surmount the obstacle and to then come out on the next party. If it is necessary to place a bolt, it should be a good solid bolt of the nail type expansion variety. This type does not suffer from metal fatigue as do compression studs.
With the many types and sizes of bolts being manufactured, it is very inconvenient to carry the many types of nuts, screws, and hangers necessary. The standard use of one type of bolt would eliminate the necessity of mentioning the sizes and types used on various routes in the guidebooks. However, the guidebooks should mention the number of bolts in place to aid in preventing over-bolting.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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another hint...
There is a very good chance that you are in possession of a picture of AH.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 10:14am PT
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ED!
YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID BY THE WORD!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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:-)
I skipped over them.
I usually read all of Ed's posts, except when I don't read them at all.
I usually do not read his posts of somebody else's work.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Ed - thanks for the "Murder of the Impossible" piece.
" I'm already on my way, ready for anything - even for retreat, if I meet the impossible. I'm not going to be killing any dragons, but if anyone wants to come with me, we'll go to the top together on the routes we can do without branding ourselves murderers."
-Reinhold Messner
Even Reinhold was willing to retreat if it meant sacrificing climbing style - and he was just talking about using too many bolts on an ascent! I wonder what he thinks about top down escapist techniques, where the climber chickens out and lowers a rope down from the top to "complete" his "ascent" ?
Or does it matter anymore?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 10:36am PT
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I think you answer your own question.
You've made your statement unambiguously. Thank you.
(Now pleeeeeeease get over it,)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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TiG - I thought it might be worth while to consider that the particular controversy we are debating in Ron's thread is a very old one. I suspect it was discussed even earlier than Smythe's publication.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - George Santayana
I don't know how to learn about history other than reading about it, or discussing it with people who have studied it... thus the articles and long quotes. I suspect that most people participating in the forum do not know about the past discussions, or that this topic has been around for a very long time... certainly in Smythe's case, the Forum was probably conducted in a bar with all of the advantages and disadvantages that venue provides.
Your comment doesn't surprise me.
Ron-I don't get paid to do any of this, and in fact, I should probably be working a bit harder on my paying job after hours to show what a dedicated employee I am, so this is probably taking bread off my table...
John - Somehow in all the years you have maintained a consistent image of climbing, a vision which provides a cynosure for yourself and other climbers. But interestingly, its fundamental precept is that one has to be willing to back off, that success is not a necessary outcome of an attempted ascent.
This is a point that is made in most of the primary opinions regarding the use of bolts. That climbing is not an activity where the outcome is a matter of "life or death," it doesn't matter if we make it to the top, send the pitch, summit; climbing is not a survival activity but an activity born out of our "leisure," an activity we choose to engage in for no particular reason with little direct value to society.
Why then is the expedient of getting to the top an overriding issue? As Smythe observed, anyone can with sufficient artifice. What is the point of that?
So bolts come into the picture because they provide safety to a passage that would otherwise have to be traversed, apparently unsafely. But we have had that debate before, in the guise of the morality of "free soloing" where a climber forsakes all aid and all insurance and must climb "as if their life depended on it," which it does... see the thread on Steph Davis...
If that is acceptable, than why wouldn't forgoing bolts also be acceptable? it is, but it cuts out the vast majority of climbers, it is elitist in that the climbers capable, physically and mentally, of pulling that sort of climbing off are few. And the numbers get smaller and smaller as the grade increases. As anyone knows who has done it, free soloing, or even running out a long distance, is a very different type of climbing.
For most crack climbing, I can get as much gear in as I want, technology has "advanced" to the point where I can even sew up wide cracks. I do not for one moment imagine that the feeling I get climbing the early 60s test pieces is remotely like going up there with a rack of pins. Now climbing is more physical, when you are way out from your last protection, climbing is much much more mental. Keeping it together to pull the moves you are physically able to pull is where it's at...
Now we can complain that safety of human life is an overriding concern, is the overriding concern, but that is bogus, for if it were true we would not choose to be out climbing. The very environment is risky, from actions far beyond our control. If you want safe, stay away from the hills... generations of humans have known this to be true. If you want to risk going in to the hills, then you should choose only to do those things which you are comfortable doing, no one requires you to be there, to climb.
It comes down to your own choice, to everyone's own choice. On a ground up First Ascent protection is put in as the climb unfolds, taking what the mountain gives in terms of protection. The line is made safe enough for the FA, who reports it. The FA is not responsible to make the climb safe for everyone, they cannot do that as they have no control over who chooses to attempt their line in the future. All they can do is climb the line, or if they are not capable, coming down and letting someone else do it.
Bolting the line brings the climb down to their ability, usually mental ability, often physical ability. It takes away the opportunity for the mountain to "turn us down." And that lessens the whole experience, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many much better climbers than I who have written about this over the decades.
Read those words, they are an important reminder of the fact that some of these "rules" are important and fundamental. What is climbing otherwise?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Ed,
history is a poor place to look for predictions of the future, paraphrased from Nassim Nicholas Taleb in The Black Swan.
We made too many wrong mistakes - Yogi Berra
The conditions of the times you mentioned have changed. There are more climbs and less unclimbed rock. Climbers have changed. Equipment has changed. Lycra is out.
The only thing that is still the same is that we do not know what tomorrow will bring.
(And maybe we still over-estimate our influence on the future.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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I love Yogi Bera-isms.
The point I was trying to make, albeit rudely (I apologize) is that there is no need to rehash the same tiring arguments.
What I am trying to get at here is that being able to make multiple statements is what democracy is about, but whether flaw or strength, what is the downside of side by side ethics?
If there is honesty in the "statement" made by the ascent why can't that stand on its own merits (or lack thereof)?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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TiG, I'm not trying to predict the future, I am trying to avoid making the mistakes of the past. Those are two different things. (And a way of thinking about climate change by the way).
Ron, while I am sure that these old arguments are tired to you, I get a sense that they are unknown to the vast majority of the STForum readers, even as there is a core of those readers who participated in some of the original discussions.
A FA does stand by its "statement," but there are a range of quality in those "statements" which put the FAs on unequal footing, that is, some are better than others. In the end it is you and the rock up there, and you do what you can. I think that what has always been part of the discussion is the question: why do you have to succeed?
Fact is you don't. But there are a million ways of redefining success... to make it a meaningless concept. Smythe hit on that point right away. I think it is important to remember it.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Ed, I understand.
My point is that a "mistake in the past" is not necessarily a mistake today. Attempting to build airplanes, looking back in history, seems to have been a silly mistake - up until the invention of the internal combustion engine and tubing for bicycles!
Funding fusion research (expecting to build commercial generation in the next 5 years) is clearly a mistake. We have repeated that "mistake" every year since the 60s. :-)
Yesterday's mistakes could be today's break-through. Viagra was not developed to solve ED!
Sorry, Ron. Enough off topic stuff from me.
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James
climber
Santa Cruz
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Pat,
It's on. June 2nd at the bridge. I'm gonna punch you in the face. Ha!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jody, you sound arrogant to me...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogant
Main Entry: ar·ro·gant
Pronunciation: \-gənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin arrogant-, arrogans, present participle of arrogare
Date: 14th century
1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner
2 : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance
synonyms see proud
— ar·ro·gant·ly adverb
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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We are what we repeatedly do.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Climbers have changed."
Yes, an ever greater percentage of the whole are risk-averse and expect risk to be manged for them.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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climbers have changed, but climbing has not... at least I recognize Smythe's characterization still, after 70 years...
a test of strength and skill in surmounting natural obstacles undertaken in accordance with traditional rules, and governed by the love of the thing for its own sake
If you are looking for an origin of the meaning of "trad" then you have probably found it...
Just what are "traditional rules?" You can find them in Smythe's essay. We shouldn't hide our deviations from "best-style" by redefining the sport, rather, we should own up to the choices we have made in the name of expediency that deviate from the pure form of the sport.
Just saying -
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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WWABD, WWAHD
Aaron Burr, Alexander Hamilton.
Just settle everything honorably, the traditional way.
:-)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 07:41pm PT
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I'm sick and tired of all this hand wringing. Nobody has said why we can't have two routes side by side with one being established in a manner that permits mortals to enjoy it while another nearby route could stand as a testament to boldness.
Each is its own statement.
Why can't we agree to disagree?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Hey Jody, are you bringing the Camero to Bridge Day™?
If ya can't beat 'em, might as well do some recruitin'...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ron, I'd think the question would be are you fine with folks putting up routes with very different styles and ethics next to your own routes.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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I personally believe in the ground up philosophy, but that is just my opinion and that is all it is.
Jody wrote "What would almighty Bachar do?" "who cares?"
Well we all should. If you believe in the ground up philosophy then John has been our spokesman- not afraid to say what he believes in. I thank him for that. If you are on the other side of the fence you should still care what he has had to say because it has affected climbing and the community around even if you don't agree with him. And Jody it sounds like you "do care" what Bachar has to say because you come across bitter. I don't know you it is just what I gather from your prior posts.
On another thread (half dome) soemeone stated that we should not continue trad values because we are so far behind the Europeans and how hard they are climbing. Makes it sound like we are just ego driven and worry about the number you are climbing instead of the experience. I personally climb for the experience not what I can spray.
Sounds like Sean Jones and Doug put a lot of thought into Growing Up and finally decided in doing it in the style in which it is now. First I am a father like Sean and there is nothing more important than providing for your children, but I have to say I do not believe that using the argument "this is how I feed my kids" makes everything acceptable. Sean a lot of people have said what a great family man you are and I don't doubt that for a moment, but don't throw them in to the mix to justify your climbing objectives.
What I have gathered from both perspectives is this;
The ground up community is very disturbed with this type of ascent and has spoken very passionately about it. The top down community seems to be OK with it. Here is a thought: tradsters have accepted that there will be rap bolted routes in certain areas that are SPORT CRAGS. They just choose not to climb at these areas. Why can't rap bolters do the same. If you want to do a route top down then go to an area that accepts this train of thought. Seems like tradsters have accepted rap bolting in certain areas why can't rap bolters do the same when it comes to trad areas, accept it for what it is and leave it alone.
Lastly $ money makes the world go round and we could bicker and argue against each other all day. But if you want to make a difference pro or con about ethics then write how you feel to the companies that sponsor climbers and tell them how you feel. I think that if we all wrote letters there would be more against rap bolting in trad areas then there would for it. I say this because ground up comments on this site seem to be much more passionate in there beliefs than the people that have been for it. I would write a letter but I own a climbing shop and I get to talk to these companies and their reps all the time, and there will be talk in Salt Lake this summer at OR in August.
Anyways these are just my opinions and that is all they are.
Take care
Dave
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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A few quotes from the collapse of this year's west coast salmon fishery:
"Hell, I'm just fishing..."
"Hey, I've always fished this way..."
"Goddam seals are eating all the fish..."
"Why can't we just keep fishing...?"
"You mean we're really running out of fish...?"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 08:45pm PT
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Dingus,
regional tolerances obviously vary greatly.
Joe,
it has already happened plenty.
I just let my climbs speak for themselves.
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WBraun
climber
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Hey
Don't go away, were not done yet.
Where's that Walleye????
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner, the Walleye fishery collapsed too - way over-Fish'ed!
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Degaine
climber
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healyje wrote: "an ever greater percentage of the whole are risk-averse and expect risk to be manged for them."
I think those are two different issues. Certain days I'm pretty risk averse, so I'll sew it up just to be sure and for peace of mind. Of course I'm not asking anyone to manage that risk for me, but I sure as hell am not going to put my ass on the line because someone else thinks I should place 4 cams instead of 9 on a given pitch or crag route.
Asking someone else to manage the risk for you, that is "hey, how come the FAist did not put more bolts up there to make it safer?" is a separate issue.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Magical Mystery Tour 5.8 *** R - 1973 Tobin Sorenson & Mike Graham
Solitary Confinement 5.9 solo *** X - 1984 John Bachar (solo)
Straight Street 5.10a ** R/X - 1985 John Bachar & Ed Barry
Run for Cover 5.10b ** R/X - 1985 John Bachar & Tom Herbert
Pumpkin Eater 5.9 R - 1974 Dale Bard, Vern Clevenger & Bob Harrington
Walk for Life 5.9 solo X - 1985 Alan Nelson (solo)
Blue Moon 5.8 solo X- 1985 Alan Nelson (solo)
Silverado 5.6 solo X- 1985 Alan Nelson (solo)
The solo routes were put up on sight. There are no bolts on those climbs. The other are pretty standard Tuolumne Meadows routes, minimal bolts, ground up, stance bolted (I'm pretty sure, members of the FA teams will correct me).
The solo routes could be considered "best style," FAs as nothing was done to alter the rock at all. The leads were bold, and the routes still stand today for any climber who wishes to test themselves against them. The only difference from the FA is that the grade of difficulty is known, a considerable bit of knowledge.
Of the other climbs, Magical Mystery Tour is probably the most climbed, and it is pretty standard fare for the area. Some leaders unfamiliar with the local "style" will feel it too run out. But it has the character of most other area climbs.
These other routes are bolted, so a compromise of the "best style" in that they are protected by bolts instead of running it out between protection. There would be no possible belays for some of these routes, especially as you get up on Fairview from that side.
Expedient? yes, of course, but the routes are high quality. Climbers can test themselves with any of these climbs. My guess is that the solos do not see much traffic. Their existence as unbolted climbs has been the subject of STForum (see for instance this) and an apparent invitation from the FA soloist (Alan Nelson) to retro-bolt them... Alan has since died but that invitation is still out there. As far as I know, these routes remain unbolted.
Here climbs of very different styles coexist, the styles are a continuum, from bold on sight solos to relatively pedestrian "every-person" climbs.
The "ethics" of the FA parties was probably pretty close to being the same. No road to hell here, just a lot of fun.
Don't think there was much anguish about this.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Ed-
Don't forget the ultra classic "Blazing Buckets" 5.9+ on Reeds. Put up solo on the first ascent, perhaps in the same style as Magical Mystery Tour, from the sound of the name anyway.
The second ascent placed a bolt. I don't really have any issue with that, it's a really stupid route to solo--if you blow it, you'll bounce off a sloping rock on the ledge above the second pitch of Reeds, and go the distance.
I wonder if anyone has even done the third ascent?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Degaine, that is what I was talking about, that the large majority of today's climbers are entirely bolt dependent.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sorry, Jody, what exactly was the point you made clear? Trad is bad? Please clarify.
What day of the week is 6/2/08?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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My .02 again,sorry.
Wes,the"we need more routes"idea did not work.When we started bolting the crap out of everything,and making the game safe the numbers of "climbers" increased exponentially,and I don't see that changing.It made it worse,not better.
Ron,sorry if I have not answered your question.The side by side thing is thought provoking.I guess if climb a is a trad,ground up,climb rated 5.x,and someone took a few risks into the unknown,and establishes a good route,then someone rap bolts another just twenty five feet away,we traddies start to wonder if the bolt expectations will leak across.Until you make a sport route at cliff Z,there are no sport climbers there.Then you make one,and it takes just ten minutes to climb and we need a few more.And the next time you come back there are four sport routes because they go up so fast.And pretty soon some well meaning soul who cried that he could not afford a trad rack shows up with a Bosch and fixes that trad route,because hey,it's a sport cliff right?
This stuff is happening,and not just in a few places.
Just want to say that the GU thing,I know it's not a sport route,I'm sure it's a killer route.I don't particularly admire folks who climb 5.11 putting in 5.8 X routes,and unlike most folks,I do not consider free solo the ultimate expression.The U E for me is ground up,gear if at all possible,bolts if necessary,on lead,hooks OK,and saving you stones for the true runout,but not falsely creating them by soloing way below your limit.So I am saying,go ahead and drill from a stance.To keep the game good,the rock has to exert some control of the situation.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jhedge, funny thing is that most of the staunch traddies in the east go to Rumny, have a blast clipping bolts all day and then the next day they are back to complaining about bolts and fluff grades... For the record I am generaly all for keeping the areas and styles intact I am also willing to allow an exception if the rout is of high enough quality.. the more important issue for me is Squeeze jobs. If you rap bolt a great line in a trad area I will be dissapointed that it didn't go in with better style but if it is well done and quality I will not be tempted to chop it.. On the other hand if you hook your way up a squeezejob and place your single bolt within reach of my allready existing classic climb that bolt needs to be removed. If you rap bolt a squeeze job so that it alters the way existing climbs, climb then the rout needs to go. Rojers rock has experienced this last summer. The Matrix to the left of Screaming Meanie is an excelent 4 pitch rout. Unfourtunatly Rap bolted but loads of fun to climb. To the right of Screaming Meanie is a total squeeze job that makes it impossible to climb Screaming Meanie without being tempted to clip the first two bolts of the new rt. The 1st bolt I don't mind as it is TOTALY a retrobolt of the start of S.M. and allows normal people to do the direct start ( I used to traverse in from the right) but that second bolt just screws up the way the rest of the pitch climbs...
Tom, You can't blame the bolts for the crouds. Just que up for Thin Air, Recombeast, Bombardment, Funhouse, Inferno, Whitny G, Moby Grape, Highe E, CCC, Shockly's etc. Etc, Etc....None of those are bolted climbs and many have no bolts at all. The culprit is GYMs, Climbing Schools, too many babies and Marketing......
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Have to say Nick(Tradmanclimbz),the queus...q's....quu...the line,the freakin lines,don't really bother me on Trad climbs even popular ones.If I want to do a classic multi pitch I know I need to go early,or late.
I have had fun clipping bolts at times.Really you can't climb here and not want to get on some bolted stuff at Cathedral and Whitehorse,and not all of it went in ground up.What I personally don't like about Rumney is the grid bolting,path building,fixed draws(are you really climbing something if you can't even clip in situ gear?)and the attitudes I see there.It's like a city,with people vying for parking spaces,no eye contact.Last time there I watched a girl try to borrow my partner's rope because she wanted to lead a climb and hers was not long enough to slingshot.I suggested she just belay on top and she looked at me like I was nuts.
The Gunks is that way now too.If people get on a classic climb there they camp on for hours.We went back to Never Never Land three times one day but the threesome on it tied it up for like six hours.The bolt anchors were intended to assist rappelling and instead created a toproping epidemic.
Gyms are a piece of it.I love people who say they are rockclimbers and have never touched a rock.....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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OK, I've never been on these, nor will I likely ever do anything but walk underneath and look up, but what's the prevailing opinion about these two routes at Reed's:
Crossroads 5.13a * - 1990 Ron Kauk
Phantom 5.13b - 1986 John Bachar
it would seem these two climbs might provide an example raised in Ron's OP question
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Ron's original question is difficult to answer.
Most of what I see on this thread is people once again arguing their case; arguing for a position of trad versus sport.
As usual some of these are very eloquent and I always enjoy reading Healyje’s distinctive & eloquent characterizations.
I don't see very many suggestions as to whether or not these two styles can manage to coexist where there has been long-standing conflict over style.
(Not to discount those who have broached this challenging issue)
Yes, there are areas in the country where they do coexist: the crucial and specific question is, in an area such as Yosemite where we have long-standing conflict, can we come to agreements whereby these two styles can coexist?
That's the tough one.
Some areas in the country, some specific crags happen to support a culture where both trad and sport bolting coexist side-by-side; but did this happen through constructive attempts by the community of climbers to make it so? Or did it just come about in relative harmony without any resistance, without any need to generate agreements.
We have areas in the country where climbers engage exclusively in new bolting by means of traditional style, where that is informally agreed upon, but not formally enforced, such as the Pinnacles of California. We have areas such as the Flatirons and Eldorado Canyon in Colorado, whereby governed committees dictate all new bolted routes must be pre-inspected and bolt spacing must allow safe passage for leaders confident at the grade. These are examples of polar opposites; examples where there is an absence of an accommodation to side-by-side expression of bolting styles.
Most of these threads in the last couple of months have grown out of the Yosemite issue.
In answer to Ron's O P; I'd say in this case it's going to be very difficult for the community to come to such an agreement of coexistant styles, because Yosemite is so high profile, so steeped in traditional history and thereby tantamount to the "last great stand" of the traditional camp. It would seem that a continual if not endless conflict over style will win out over a discussion leading to an accommodation of the sport climbing style.
And if such an agreement were struck, would it open the floodgates onto the slippery slope thereby paving with good intentions the "road to hell", propagating the end of the trad legacy? These are hard questions and good ones. It is difficult to create structures (committees) which will adjudicate such subjective engagements as the use of bolts within a relatively artistic confine of their use by climbers.
I won't make an assertion whether one style should win out over another in Yosemite and short of some heroic triumph of conflict resolution, it's hard to imagine the implementation of a collective agreement which accommodates a side-by-side expression of both bolting styles. But my guess is: the conflict, the fractured community -- this will not be good for the user group, for the climbers as a whole.
-Roy
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jhedge, here in the east the trad climbs all have lines on them as well. It is not just sport that is a ZOO. just too many people in the world. And yes the Gyms, Camps and adventure tours do pump a steady stream of new climbers into the system. They have to otherwise they would go out of buisness.
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jstan
climber
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Indeed as the clientele in Rock Gyms begin to find those physically small gyms too confining one might expect commercial interest in going to public lands and developing specific cliffs into sport areas. As the trade becomes large enough even the high cost of gasoline can be resolved, at least partially, by setting up bus tours for the clients in the home gyms. For those gym climbers who specifically enjoy the presence of large numbers of people, the bus ride will in fact be part of the experience.
At a minimum one would hope such things are not done without first getting a Special Use Permit for commercial activity from the authorities managing the land. Would be interesting to see if any such permits already exist.
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TPinSLC
Trad climber
SLC
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"Ron, I'd think the question would be are you fine with folks putting up routes with very different styles and ethics next to your own routes."
A question I would be interested in hearing answered.
(I am headed back under the bridge)
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I have no concern that traditional climbing will die out. You can look at many sports and other activities and find folks who are dedicated to the traditional means and methods. There are blacksmiths and furniture makers turning out the most amazing works, using traditional tools, techniques and materials. Climbing is no different, those seaking out more adventure, commitment etc. will be drawn to the traditional ways.
Yet, there is nothing that can be done to force traditional climbing on everyone, and honestly I don't think any of the traditional climbers have any desire to do so.
Perhaps the traditional climbers will have to be content to realize that the rocks that will be reserved to the traditional means will be those that are difficult to access and aren't well known.
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WBraun
climber
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tolman
That's exactly how I see it too. Good vision on your part.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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One ps, I'd be just as saddened to see yosemite walls get grid bolted as I would be to see an old growth redwood forest clearcut.
But, I won't go out and spike trees, nor will I chop routes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Perhaps the traditional climbers will have to be content to realize that the rocks that will be reserved to the traditional means will be those that are difficult to access and aren't well known."
There is pretty much the essence-by-extension of the whole just-don't-clip-it mentality and facetiousness of the idea that sport climbing doesn't really affect you if you don't do it. It explicitly acknowledges the reality on the ground - that any rock within reasonable driving time of a major city, and within a reasonable approach of parking, that isn't under the protection of active public land managers or private owners - is being bolted. And it's being bolted to provide new climbs for the folks who persist as sport climbers from the large annual tidal flow of gyms which now act as the commercial 'engines' driving the demographics of our sport.
To be honest, in all these discussions one rarely hears or sees simple, explicit acknowledgements like this from the pro-bolt side of the discussion. And the lack of simple acknowledgements of that reality-on-rock looks like denial to many and really does act to impede what might otherwise make for more constructive discussions on the issue - at least from my perspective.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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extending Smythe's argument, if "don't clip it" is acceptable, why isn't "don't climb it"?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ed - I'm guessing you've never swabbed a dot of bacteria in the center of a clean petri dish of culture medium and seen what happens in the way of restraint...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the Tuesday NYTimes not withstanding, I don't usually think of bacteria as capable of intellectual confusion.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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So if bolts are placed while climbing instead of rapping, it would be okay but it's wrong otherwise? It seems like some people here care about their rules more than they care climbing.
I personally don't give a sh#t how a bolt is placed. I care very much why it is placed and where it is placed.
Dave
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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The reason we won't agree to "letting both coexist" is many of us believe one of them is murder.
Murder of a possible (or impossible) challenge for all of us including future generations. The submission of stretch of rock removes the possibility of personal growth while climbing for both a potential FAist and any repeaters who might gain something tangible from pushing themselves later on.
Since no one owns the rock, it's not fair for over-bolters to steal these challenges away from all of us. If you only want fun climbing outdoors, set up a toprope. Why do you need to add bolts and take something from the rest of us when you don't really even want the challenges or risk of leading?
If you can't climb it fairly now, leave it alone until you can. And if you are in desperate need of fun, risk-less lead routes, we have this thing called the climbing gym.
-Paul
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Can rap exist side by side with classical?
I guess it depends on the listeners. :-)
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Question for traddies.When this crap started,did you foresee the epidemic it is now?Did you think you'd be vying for crags with sport climbers.Did you think you'd ever see a bolted crack?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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As the original generations of rock and roll fans matured, the music became an accepted and deeply interwoven thread in popular culture. Beginning in the early 1970s, rock songs and acts began to be used in a few television commercials; within a decade this practice became widespread. Starting in the 1980s rock music was often featured in film and television program soundtracks.
Just as jazz lost its ability to offend, so did rock. While mainstream rock music was no longer able to shock or offend, new forms of music, particularly the punk scene in the late-1970s and rap and hip-hop in the late-1980s as well as some pop acts, emerged to fill this role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_effects_of_rock_and_roll
Devil's music
When asked if he was "still playing the Devil's music" Jerry Lee Lewis stated "Yes, I am. But you know it's strange, the same music that they kicked me out of school for is the same kind of music they play in their churches today. The difference is, I know I am playing for the devil and they don't."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Question for traddies.When this crap started,did you forsee the epidemic it is now?Did you think you'd be vying for crags with sport climbers.Did you think you'd ever see a bolted crack? "
Yes, as early as '75 I could see the writing on the wall clear as hell. In places like Eldo and the Gunks you could see about 40-50% of the folks leading were very nervous about it and basically less than competent and confident with gear. Many folks simply stopped leading or quit climbing altogether if they couldn't deal with placing pro.
It was a very pent-up demand for sport climbing before it even arrived. At that time the divide wasn't yet around the form of protection - it was around the stylistic divide that preceded bolting - and that centered around dogging which became the mainstay tactic of sport climbers once the bolting started in earnest.
It was always clear there was no shortage of folks who would be drilling like mad once the bolts started flying. But the overwhelming spread of sportclimbing had to wait for battery technologies to evolve and drop in price. And those advanced battery technologies are the true foundation of sport climbing. Once those drills became cheap it was quite clear what was about to follow.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Deuce...Blazing Buckets has seen at least a 3rd and a 4th. It's in a very popular spot, so it probably gets done from time to time.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Cheap batteries are the work of the devil!
Somebody once told me that we grow up to be the same as our parents.
healyje, is that true? Did your Dad hate your music, clothes, and long hair?
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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I don't understand Wes, how can you compare the possibility of man flying (without artifical wings) to the possibility of man climbing without a bolt every 5 ft? You're analogy would only hold true if man had started flying originally without machines (considering man started climbing originally without bolts).
In fact, if man could fly on his own, why would we need airplanes? The fact is man can climb without overbolting!
Look, all I'm saying is if your reasons for climbing don't include the mental challenges that go along with traditional climbing (bolts or not), why not just toprope? Why lead at all? If you just want the joy of climbing movement, what does leading have to do with it? Why do you have to insist on overbolting to the point where leading loses its purpose when you don't really even care about leading?
I think many who would argue for traditional ethics will argue that traditional leading adds value to a route with classic climbing movement. I am just not sure that overbolting adds value to anything.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Champion wrote: Look, all I'm saying is if your reasons for climbing don't include the mental challenges that go along with traditional climbing (bolts or not), why not just toprope? Why lead at all? If you just want the joy of climbing movement, what does leading have to do with it? Why do you have to insist on overbolting to the point where leading loses its purpose when you don't really even care about leading?
Safe to say you have never done a really hard sport route.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Bob: Not safe to say.
Of course you could just ask, but why not assume?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Champ wrote: Bob: Not safe to say.
Of course you could just ask, but why not assume?
Because if have done some...you wouldn't have made such a weak statement.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Better analogy Wes, but I'm not sure anyone would argue that highway driving is a sacred or amazingly fun recreational experience.
I will agree that overbolting is a relative term, and everyone has the right to climb for their own reasons. Of course, everything is relative and that has never stopped people from including terms like "reasonable" in the law. I can agree that sport climbing has its place. But I also think there are places where sport climbing does not belong.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Wes wrote:
"bob,
Everyone knows sport climbing is no more involved than a casual day of top roping in the gym. "
I completely agree:-) I like you guys more every minute.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Funny thing is, I was just reminiscing about climbing with folks of various styles. The only time I've had a climb "ruined" was by a group of trad climbers. This was right on the cusp of the sport/gym transition, so the majority of climbers were just climbers, of various abilities, or lack thereof.
It was my first attempt at the regular route on Fairview dome. I don't recall why, but we ended up making a late start, with 2-3 parties ahead of us. I didn't so much mind the slow pace of the party ahead of us at first, and was content to chill at the second belay. But when gear started winging down on us, and this seemed to further slow their pace, it made me realize if we stayed on the route, we'd likely get nailed by falling gear, and would definately be decending in the dark. Needless to say we didn't have a flashlight with us. So we bailed and went craggin.
I've been to plenty of other areas where folks were falling their way up a route bolt by bolt, but it never ruined my climb.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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wes wrote: 'The solo routes could be considered "best style," FAs as nothing was done to alter the rock at all.
Is that like "best religion" or "best tradition" or "best cultural norms?"
Are you suggesting anyone unwilling to risk their life is unworthy to climb the rock? Or simply that those who climbed it first dictate how it should be climbed in the future? '
I was not very clear in that post. On the west side of Fairview Dome in Tuolumne Meadows, natural features are very scarce so climbs are protected by bolts, for the most part. So it would seem that there isn't really any choice but to bolt. However, there are two other choices: climb the route solo, or don't climb it at all. So of the three choices, climbing the route solo is inarguably the choice of "best style" if the route is to be climbed, not climbing it is also "best style."
What surprises me in this discussion is the fact that we can choose not to do the climb, backing off, or just not going up to do it at all.
I'm not saying people should solo, that's a personal choice. When I solo I am fully prepared to back off, my life depends on that...
When putting up a new route I like to think I'm ready to back off if the line I choose won't go. Better to leave it for someone else then to force it, that someone else might even be me...
If I go up on an established climb I have to be prepared to back off too.
Now about who dictates what about climbs... we've been around this before on the Forum. In reality the climbers who climb those routes do whatever they want. I think the FA team or the FFA team does have some say in this matter. The whole concept of a "test piece climb" is based around the idea that the team had in establishing the climb, sometimes this is a very careful deliberation, and part of the act of creation. So changing the configuration of the climb after the FA (or FAA) could change the idea of the climb.
Who cares?
To some extent the ideas are important, and even compelling. The impressive thing about Smythe's essay above is that he points out the fact that climbing is really a construction that we climbers create. Climbing could be a whole lot of things, we see it on this particular thread, trad, sport, gym, etc, etc. It is a game of sorts and it has a set of rules that describes it. This doesn't trivialize it in my mind, but there are no immutable laws of climbing. So while you may not think the ideas of the past are worthy of limiting you, I find it hard to believe that you have absolutely no interest in how climbing is defined. In fact, you have been passionate about making sure that the definition of climbing not exclude what it is you do. So you care about ideas. If some later generation of climber posts on whatever the future medium communicating climbing news and opinions dismisses your perception of climbing as "archaic" and "no longer valid" I suspect it will bother you... but who knows, really, just a point of argument.
My examples in the previous post are examples of "side by side" ethics, which coexist without too much controversy. I suspect this is true because we understand the ideas which motivated the execution of the FA.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Ed,
you wrote:
"OK, I've never been on these, nor will I likely ever do anything but walk underneath and look up, but what's the prevailing opinion about these two routes at Reed's:
Crossroads 5.13a * - 1990 Ron Kauk
Phantom 5.13b - 1986 John Bachar
it would seem these two climbs might provide an example raised in Ron's OP question"
These routes, when they went in, epitomized the controversy.
Bachar employed "quickies", a sliding nut design, to extend natural protection and avoid bolting on Phantom.
Kauk's Crossroads, was a countermove of sorts. The name Crossroads itself indicated the conflict, stating that we were at a crossroads in climbing, with bolting in particular at the center of it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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And thanks Ed,
For digging up all that historical stuff which you posted up-thread; an appreciation of context is always a good thing.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: These routes, when they went in, epitomized the controversy.
Bachar employed "quickies", a sliding nut design, to extend natural protection and avoid bolting on Phantom.
Kauk's Crossroads, was a countermove of sorts. The name Crossroads itself indicated the conflict, stating that we were at a crossroads in climbing with bolting in particular at the center of it.
And why can't both be seen as positives for the climbing community?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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This is sorta pathetic but I'm usually more scared sport climbing than soloing.
I don't fall soloing and do fall sport climbing.
And soloing has made me fear falling.
So it's funny when guys climb with me and say "I climb 5.12 sport and lead 5.7 trad" Oh well. We live in different worlds
Peace
karl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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-"And why can't both be seen as positives for the climbing community?"
...That's the crux of the whole dustup Bob.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Note: I didn't use "quickies" on the "Phantom" just for the record. I used RP's. We didn't have cams that small yet.
Phantom is 13b??????
I thought it's 12d X/R....
jb
Edit: Crossroads is a rap job. Phantom was on sight, no falls, ground up.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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sorry, Donny Reid has Phantom 5.13a R (page 74 in my edition)...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I feel your pain Karl.
There's a whole sidebar, a bit of thread drift, actually a lot... to explain that phenomena.
But real quick:
Wunsch wrote very eloquently in a piece which you can read in CLIMB!, about the mental gyrations which he felt when working on some of those roof routes in Eldorado. It's a kinesthetic oriented fear; it's about putting your body in wild positions, where falling is a near certainty.
Traditional climbing, soloing, for those who are in the zone, tends to engender a feeling of certainty of NOT falling. You target and calculate for that and achieve it and that's what's special about it; not as a comparison to the other, but in its own right.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote
"OK, I've never been on these, nor will I likely ever do anything but walk underneath and look up, but what's the prevailing opinion about these two routes at Reed's:
Crossroads 5.13a * - 1990 Ron Kauk
Phantom 5.13b - 1986 John Bachar
it would seem these two climbs might provide an example raised in Ron's OP question"
that's a good question but 5.13 short granite face routes don't get done much so I don't think too many folks besides Bachar and Kauk have been thinking of these routes.
Most likely, anybody interested in climbing them would have sport climbed enough to not care
peace
karl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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John,
I figured you would correct me on the "quickie" bit.
What I do remember, is that you got a few from Dimitri when you were working (looking at?) on that route and others at the time -and were stoked that they might fit into the mix.
(Russ busts me on those inconsistencies of reportage all the time, haha)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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I used to test quickies for Don Best who was making many new types of designs....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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...and Dimitri repped them.
You snagged a few from him when we were in Foresta. Those details are unimportant. But pushing routes without bolts WAS important.
Nevertheless, those routes, Crossroads more so (obviously), had a controversial relationship.
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WBraun
climber
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Me n Cashner saw that Phantom.
Then we looked at each other and said: "Nope, not us".
"Better get bachar" "Only superman can climb this thing".
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Are you serious Tolman? Lets get this straight.
"The only time I've had a climb ruined was by a group of trad climbers."
Of course these trad climbers could magically be distinguished from yourself(as you were both on a trad route) even though...
"the majority of climbers were just climbers, of various abilities, or lack thereof."
In fact, what makes them evil trad climbers is not obvious here. But anyways, you were on a 'trad' route and you had your 'trad' experience on said 'trad route' ruined by some 'trad' climbers. So, what are you complaining about?
Oh, right. You are complaining because YOU...
"ended up making a late start"...
On one of the most popular routes in Tuolumne and YOU...
"didn't have a flashlight with us, So we bailed and went craggin"
And by the way, You have never had your 'sport' experience ruined, becuase there is never anyone frickin' climbing above you on a sport route, duh! You weren't on the same climb as the
"folks [who] were falling their way up a route bolt by bolt"...
And you never needed a flashlight to bail off a sport route because you never really go anywhere. Of course, climbing some BS sport route next to the folks falling their way upwards is a way better experience than climbing the Regular Route On Fairview, right?
Good point Tolman. God I hope you were joking.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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So sport climbing isn't dangerous??
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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As an aside - John and anyone else, do any of you know where Don Best might be these days? I believe Stephane Penequinn of the Nut Museum was trying to locate him (you can send me an email).
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Bob-
If sport climbing has been redefined to mean whitewhater rafting, sign me up. Otherwise, sport climbing has inherently nothing to do with crossing rivers.
-Paul
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Paul...you need to loosen up a little and come down off your little trad-high-horse.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Although I find all these discussions interesting, important even,
I must say, I used to laugh a lot more here on Supertopo.
(I know, I know this isn't a laughing matter for most of us here)
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Damn, that water looks cold Bob.
You know about the shrinkage, right?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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T-Paul - Keep riding that horse brother! heh heh...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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So JB,
Can you comment more on the Phantom and Crossroads?
I recall that Ron doing Crossroads, that that event took place at the height, or right in the middle of the rap bolting controversy in Yosemite. For me it was emblematic of the controversy, but I don't remember any big dustup over that route.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here John, or fill in the blanks: but it seemed like he more or less just got away with that one, (I remember Ron talking about his route name; he was making a statement with it, but I don't remember your input on the matter) so how that really went down, that does inform the discussion, historically speaking, of side-by-side styles.
I never even looked at these routes, but doesn't Crossroads cross right over the Phantom?
That's what I remember.
It may as well have been called "Crossing Swords".
Roy
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Tar - Yeah it caused a few ground up folks to get pissed off. Crossroads did get chopped and replaced. Kauk was unhappy about that. I thought it was a bad precedent at the time. That is also when I wrote that "Compromise" piece that was posted by Deucy in the SFHD thread. Kauk didn't want any part of that and the rap bolting began.
Now people rap bolt 2000 foot faces....
Gotta go free soloing for now....see ya' later (I hope).
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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JB wrote:T-Paul - Keep riding that horse brother! heh heh...
John...don't know if you noticed but most if not all new hard trad routes are done by people who have done a large amount of sport climbing...heh heh
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks John.
A good deal of the posters here on Supertopo are staunch traditionalists and pretty much categorically defy rap bolting. While that gets explained really well, again, the crux of this thread, the crux of the biscuit so to speak, is the notion of coexistence. Is this a pipe dream? Will the prevalence of rap bolting blot out traditional styles?
I brought it up a few times and it tends to go unnoticed here, this fact that in the Flatirons of Boulder, ground up, on sight, bolted first ascents ARE NOT ALLOWED. To a forum so composed predominantly of traditional climbers, this should seem ironic or ridiculous to say the least.
Here is a case where the tables have completely turned. I find that noteworthy. For those of us who were around in the 80s and active, we may remember that in many ways sport climbing found fertile territory in Colorado, while it was initially much resisted in California.
This goes some way to explaining how we can have an established committee here in Colorado which outlaws traditional means. I found it telling that one of my friends here, who had a hand in instituting the Eldorado model of bolting controls, which was used as a template for the Flatiron committee, this person had never heard of Tom Higgins, or if he had he didn't understand the significance of Higgins’ to the historical development of bolted slabs. This would be like me, originally a Californian, having never been fairly cognizant of the influence and legacy of John Stannard.
A lot of people who have input on this matter are lacking in knowledgeable appreciation of historical context.
To my point: even though Colorado was once a hotbed of purism, (for instance, the idea of eradicating all hanging belays wherever possible through creative stance, and Jim Erickson's chalk less no falls ethic and so forth), we've since had lots of influence from the concept that sport climbing introduced; namely that the quality of a route is more important than how it went up. (I'm not saying that sentiment doesn't have its place).
The Flatirons model embraces this and it also rejects any sort of route involving bolts which is by its nature, say by being run out for example, liable to exclude people. That's a long ways down the line from people working with the natural environment ground up and setting an example of something to aspire to, which includes risk.
So in trying to sort out some of this methodology which has been adopted by these Colorado committees, I asked one of these committee members how a traditional style bolted route might be accommodated and they said "Well Roy, we'd have to have quotas for different styles". He made that remark, and it was tabled as a remark and not as a suggestion, as though it was absurd.
So circling back to the letter that John Bachar just referenced as appearing in the Half Dome thread, the one which Deuce posted, that actually suggested a place to start in terms of creating some sort of format to accept these different styles in a way somewhat more codified than a free-for-all style of competition for potential lines.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Is it possible to repost the Bachar letter (from Deuce) here? Thanks. Or was it Deuce's letter that Bachar posted?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Man folks have their thongs in a bunch.
My last post was simply to point out in all this arguing of co-existing is that the only time a climbing party has had an effect on a climb of mine was a trad group, not sport climbers. I thought that was pretty funny in light of this conversation.
Sure, I was young and had poorly planned the climb, evident by the late start and lack of headlights. My climb wasn’t ruined, and I wasn’t mad at anyone. It was learning experience, like every climb has been. I learn from both good and bad experiences. I went back the next summer, was the first one on the route, and had a great time.
High horse? Cripes, I don’t see how I’ve tried to force my style on anyone, or claimed superiority. I just like climbing, not falling. There is a huge difference between having a live and let live acceptance of other styles, vs. adopting them. It seems some sport climbers want to force everyone adopting their styles as the only way they can feel that they are being accepted. Why is this?
My current climbing partner is the best partner I've ever climbed with. Not because he's a strong climber, which he is, not because he's a trad or sport climber, as I don't know what he considers himself, and I don't think he's ever thought about it. He's just a climber, ice, rock, gym, he clips bolts, he places pro, he free solos. We simply enjoy climbing together.
Our jobs are flexible enough that if the weather is right, and the mood strikes, lunch time is spent getting in a climb, and we feel great about it afterwords. He has no problem with me being out of shape and climbing several grades less then he climbs. If I'm stuck at something that's cruxing me he doesn't spray or try to rush me. If I'm cruising or climbing well, he doesn't blow smoke up my azz.
If I were to put in a nutshell why he's such a good partner, it's that he climbs sans ego.
Styles can co-exist, but big egos can't, even if they are from the same camp.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tolman...my comment was not directed at you but to the other Paul...Champ-Sleeper
The climbs (sport and trad) can/do coexist...it's the people who can't.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Ok, I'll come down off the horse. Don't mean to rag on you Tolman, but it just seemed you were ragging on Traddies without a good reason. Bob, there is merit to sport climbing, and I know it can be a meaningful pursuit.
On the other hand, the both "coexisting" concept is a really warm, fuzzy ideal that neglects some of the realities of what really goes on.
The truth is sport climbing, or the sport climbing mindset, can have an negative impact on traditional areas. I've seen it happen recently here in Phx, AZ at a traditional area, Pinnacle Peak. Here, an existing semi-runout bolted trad route "Lessons in Discipline" has been retro-bolted without FA permission or even a community concensus. Now, the run-outs are removed, and a route that meant more than the sum of its moves is just another sport clip up. I see this kind of thing as a tangible negative impact of sport climbing in a traditional area.
On the other hand, what impact does trad have on sport areas? Is there a perceived negative impact for sport climbers when a trad line goes up in a sport area? If we are to work towards a "both coexist" live and let live mentality, there should be give and take. I just feel like the "both coexisting" concept, in reality, is only a benefit for sport climbing and mostly a drag for trad climbing.
-Paul
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Paul wrote: Now, the run-outs are removed, and a route that meant more than the sum of its moves is just another sport clip up. I see this kind of thing as a tangible negative impact of sport climbing in a traditional area.
I would chop the bolts and fill in the holes. Pretty simple solution.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Bob-
That's the plan. I just thought I'd give an example of something concrete.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Nate - Here's the compromise letter I came up with (thanks to Deuce for saving this).
I thought maybe we could share the rock and still have some challenges for ground up climbers but the rap guys wanted nothing to do with it.
The problem is that ground up efforts take a lot more time than rap bolting efforts and all the open terrain gets eaten up real quick on rappel thereby leaving the ground up guys with nothing. That's why I quit climbing in Tuolumne - everything I was trying got rap bolted so I left.
When I found the unclimbed Owens River Gorge, I was stoked but after I put up three routes, the rap bolters put up a hundred. Then I quit climbing there too.
So much for co-existence and giving the "other guys" a chance.... Up is up, down is down.
Here it is...was...
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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In areas where the two ethics exist, one existed before the other. Up to local ethic (or lack thereof) to decide if this sets a precedent for the entire cliff or region, I guess. Or it's simply live and let live, depending often on the egos involved.
How often does an individual visit a trad (GU) crag and start putting up sport climbs?
How often does an individual visit a sport crag and start putting up trad (GU) climbs?
I reckon the first happens much much more often. And that's the perceived threat to traditionalism. It's not a very even playing field - when competition for a limited resource enters the picture.
Where I climb, the two ethics co-exist side by side, largely due to lack of any local climbing community. A number of the FAists do routes in both styles. But I can guarantee that far more sport routes are going in then trad (GU) routes.
Ultimately, if any hope for a balance is to be maintained in these areas, then the traditionalists have to get to work, while also recruiting the next generation of climbers to go at it ground-up.
Edit:
Thanks John for reposting. Did any top-down practitioners participate/collaborate in penning this co-existence letter?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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I'm glad to see that the coexistence issue is getting some consideration, but I don't think that John's first condition is a reasonable expectation.
I climb for myself, not to compare myself with others. So suggesting that my style be dependent upon difficulty, and furthermore that that level of difficulty is dependent on the levels that others are climbing at is not gonna work for me.
If the rap bolters are putting up a hundred routes to the trad's three then in my eyes the accomplishment of those three ascents is only greater. It adds to their status.
For me quality has always meant far more than quantity.
You should be proud of those three John. They only distinguish themselves that much more.
The thing that bugs me is that people do climbs without the faintest notion of their history (don't get me going).
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John's "rules" seems to favor the trad-climber...no wonder it never took off.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Thank God there is plenty of it to go around. "
Well, there you go - except if we're talking within reasonable driving and approach distances for a day of climbing then I'd say there isn't 'plenty of it to go around' at all in many parts of the country - and what there is, that's unprotected by private ownership or active land management, is all but under siege by drills.
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WBraun
climber
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John Bachar
That so called coexistence of rules sure reeks of a fascist proposition.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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under siege? hahahahahahhahahahaha...
those damn batteries!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Tomcat wrote:
"Question for traddies.When this crap started,did you forsee the epidemic it is now?Did you think you'd be vying for crags with sport climbers.Did you think you'd ever see a bolted crack?"
That was a poignant question!
Healyje did a pretty good job with it:
"In places like Eldo and the Gunks you could see about 40-50% of the folks leading were very nervous about it and basically less than competent and confident with gear."
Another thing which Healyje has asserted throughout these discussions: something to the effect that the predominant number of climbers out there in this day and age are risk-averse and prefer a fairly sanitized well protected experience.
In answer to Tomcat's first question and to expand on it:
Hell yes I knew (rap bolting) would likely become prevalent. In the early 80s Lechlinsky and I went on a little bolt chopping junket in Joshua Tree. Not to be insensitive here, but it was sort of fun; at that time even rap routes were done with quarter inch button heads and they came out laughably easy. Some of the routes I had previously climbed with the rappel bolts in place, and others I hadn't, but lead them later without the bolts, except for one of them. (Frankly I don't give a hoot about those last details, just some trivia for people who find that important).
We did it because we thought it might, -might stave an onslaught of rap bolting, long-term, in the Monument; you know, nip it in the bud. But I harbored no illusions about the long-term realities. I figured, as the masses began to get involved in rockclimbing, they would sooner or later get around to imposing their risk-averse ways.
What Healyje said about risk-averse climbers, even within the trad community, that is so true and quite key. I believe it just so happens that there aren't that many of us, in a proportional sense, that really excel at on-site leading. It might even be an innate talent, even though it can obviously be learned and polished, I think a great many climbers just don't have it. So in essence, it is by nature a little bit elitist.
In support of that last paragraph, by way of example: take Tony Yaniro. Obviously a brilliant climber, demonstrating great footwork, awesome power and limitless enthusiasm, he probably knew how and had in the past run things out, but in general he just didn't want to risk a lot and loved to sew things up.
When Lechlinsky and I were doing new routes in the California Needles around that same time, we'd sort of been giving Yaniro and Leavitt grief for their top-down tactics. We had been using hooks occasionally for some of the steeper slabs, bolting in positions too steep to swing a hammer from natural stance. Tony capitulated, made himself a bunch of custom hooks, (he really loved making gear, he once hand cut his own 3/4" cams), and went to work on Sirocco. It's a great route, but they basically just constructed a bolt ladder from their hooks, and selectively removed bolts after the fact to make the leading and clipping more balanced.
So you just can't make everybody play your game and there are lots of climbers out there who just don't risk it, so sport climbing is here to stay (not even to mention or defend all the straightforward athletic positive things about sport climbing). In my opinion, once that appraisal comes into focus, things only get worse when we try to impose our own will upon others; next thing you know, a few turns and a few years down the road (now), they are the ones who are in the majority, and your “Noble Savage" style is the thing getting ruled out!
So that last bit is obviously the best argument for extending towards sport climbers a means to coexistence where trad climbers are concerned. I am not saying I know how to achieve it, but we are in the minority, in essence, as noted by Healyje, always have been.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: Another thing which Healyje has asserted throughout these discussions: something to the effect that the predominant number of climbers out there in this day and age are risk-averse and prefer a fairly sanitized well protected experience.
I hope Joe put himself in that group...knowing his past as top-downer or top-roper.
John...since your proposal...how many 5.13c trad routes have been done in the area and by who??
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Now don't ruin it for me Bob!
And what the heck were you doing waist deep in that fast water anyway?
You won't find me risking that lunacy...
hahaha!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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bob - Not many if any at all 13c routes have been done that I know of - they all got rap bolted. No one gave the ground up guys a chance.
Nate D hits it on the nailhead - rap bolters always win. They get to all the lines quite easily and quickly.
Ask any ground up dude/dudette how it feels.
Werner - Yes, I hated trying to write that stupid co-existence thing. I was trying to give both sides a chance to do their own thing (dumb idea but at least I tried - I didn't get any compromise ideas from them). Everybody can still do their own thing but the ground up folks always get the raw deal. Most of the obvious good lines get the top down treatment in rapid fashion - "Sorry about that ground up climber".
Except for Southern Belle...
Ground up forever!
-jb
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob D: "I hope Joe put himself in that group...knowing his past as top-downer or top-roper."
Bob, was never a top-downer, but we did top rope a bunch and that was entirely LNT-driven back in So.Ill. based on the rock and does include a couple of X-rated TR's in the mix if you're ever in that neck of the woods, as well as one roof that went highball / free solo for the same reason. That and I've stacked a few hexs in pegmatite here and there over the years on new lines. And actually, TRing real steep lines and roofs is a lot harder than dogging up them bolt to bolt - it's really closer to deep water soloing - it's entirely 'think fast and do, or fly'.
My current FAs are actually pretty grim affairs at the moment from an objective hazard standpoint. And while I'm not particularly talented, well-rounded, or strong in this company, I don't think anyone then or now would describe my climbing as particularly risk averse.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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The only route I chopped, and it wasn't so much a chop as unscrewing the hangers was a route at Summit Rock across from Castle Rock in the Santa Cruz mountains. It actually required pulling the hangers twice to send the message.
Some of the formation was maybe 1/2 rope length high, but there were plenty of boulders around. There was this one slab maybe, maybe 15' high, that had a large horn on the top a good 2' high and well over a foot in dia. Somebody had placed not one but two bolts on the thing to "lead" it, and two more to belay from. It was like a 5.7 boulder problem, If you had to use rope a rope for it, this could have been easily accomplished by just wrapping a sling around the massive horn and top roping it. The base was completely flat, so risk of tweaked ankles on a bad landing.
It was at that point that I realized for some of these "climbers", the "first ascent" really wasn't what it wasabout, nor the route, nor even climbing. These people were little more than dogs urinating on a post to mark their teritory, and their "routes" were little more than an effort to leave their mark on the world.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John wrote: bob - Not many if any at all 13c routes have been done that I know of - they all got rap bolted. No one gave the ground up guys a chance.
John...I still do ground up and top down. Still a lot of new rock even in a place like Boulder Canyon...the so called traddies just seem to be their own worst enemy...a lot are good at complaining...but not doing.
Joe...go do a cutting edge new route and then come back and talk. The level you are climbing at was reached 30-40 years ago. As to risk...the r and x rated routes never had waiting lines...even 20-30 years ago.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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John Bachar.
Free Soloist.
Boot Guy.
Fascist.
Geez Werner!
What a Buzz buster you are.
At least he tried.
You know; standard bargaining procedure.
Ask for the world and settle for a little less...
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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weschrist said-
"I think the "just don't clip the bolts and we won't place bolts closer than..." preserves your adrenaline rush."
It's not about the adrenaline rush.
For me and other first ascensionists, it's about having some rock to do first ascents (the most challenging type of climbing I've encountered over all these years). If it doesn't matter to rap bolters "how" the bolts got in, why not let a bunch of dumb first ascent guys risk life and limb to do it ground up. The top downers can add bolts later so the general public can feel safe and have fun and get better at "free climbing" and all that other good stuff. The ground up first ascent dude gets what he wants - a chance to pit his will and might against the unknown.
I've climbed all styles, techniques, etc. on rock and the two most enjoyable things I've ever really liked are doing "on-sight, ground up, first ascents" and "free soloing". I can free solo tons of stuff and still get my groove on but on-sight ground-up first ascents are hard to come by.
Why not give a brother a chance?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"But it is only a bolt after all, hardly the eye sore others would have to (have had to) see when someone craters."
Let me try visualizing that one...
Pools of bloody, pounded flesh and bones - or bolts. Given we aren't talking whales washed up on beaches, that's a pretty powerful image. And quite an easy choice, too. I'd have to consult with Tar (who seems to have his fingers on an amazing breadth of visual and factual climbing history) to see if that wasn't the Powerpoint deck that convinced Boulder of the need to institute draconian down-bolting measures on the Flatirons, but I wouldn't doubt it if it was.
So, we're talking bolts in their savior role here (or is that you for sinking them), protecting people from their own judgment. Or is the point of bolts also to protect us from the disturbing aesthetic consequences of other climbers' bad judgment? Clearly I'm not up to speed on all the many safety attributes of bolts - but I'll be sure and add this rationale to a list. Is this one of those "I have a dream..." sort of deals where some year they don't have to publish an ANAM? I personally don't want to be protected from my own actions, from routes, or from the mistakes of others which - hopefully - we all learn very real lessons.
Tar, I hear and see you searching for some common point where both sides might meet and move forward from, but personally I find the denials about the rate lines are being drilled up and the radical disparity between notions of individual and group risk management to be pretty serious impediments. It's about like tribes in the 1800's who tried sending representatives to Wash. DC. for honorable discussions with the US government. Not sure what 'treaty' you could write that wouldn't literally be full of holes before the ink[jet] dries.
Edit: Bob, you're right, we were putting up .12s in the mid-70's just like folks in other places and now I'm just as happy as a clam putting up .10-.11 ground up trad lines 30+ years later. I've never once - not once - climbed for difficulty, only interesting rock and lines. If they happen to be hard so be it, otherwise I could care less.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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For many a seasoned climber, there comes a time when some realize the only chance they have to put everything together and test themselves against the rock is during a ground-up first ascent up an unclimbed piece of rock. It forces them to dig deep into their soul and come up with everything they know and feel to make it up some unknown face.
Top down bolting is a bummer for would-be first ascensionists. Ground-up is slow, hard and dangerous, rap-bolting is fast, easy and safe. Ground-up guy has a harder time nowadays. His dream of climbing unknown terrain gets eaten up quickly by top-down dudes. Where can he go to do first ascents?
Can top-down dudes leave ground-up dudes some space to do their own thing?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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jb - Have you done Southern Belle?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Bob, you're right, we were putting up .12s in the mid-70's just like folks in other places and now I'm just as happy as a clam putting up .10-.11 ground up trad lines 30+ years later.
Joe...the difference is that in those other places they were doing them ground up at the time...weren't most of those routes done on top-rope and if they were you started at the top?
How can you have a top-rope x rated route?? Wouldn't that be a solo?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I appreciate the flavor of a ground up first free ascent, on-sight, and all that yummy stuff.
And I don't agree with this whole notion about it being a selfish endeavor, because if it is conducted within the confines of ground-up territory, the end product is something that makes sense for those who come to repeat it, generally speaking. Southern Belle, the Bachar Yerian: these are exceptions to the rule of ground-up routes in terms of the risk; they are the corner cases.
Just to level the playing field (or perhaps only to trim the lawn back a bit), a couple other things, one from each side, which I find annoyingly off mark:
From Rappel Bolters:
"If you like run outs, you don't have to clip all the bolts on our routes"
-hogwash! For a route to have realistic run out tension, that kind of contrivance won't cut it.
From Ground-up Boys and Girls:
"Why don't you just top rope it, instead of punching in all those bolts?"
-um, no. There is plenty of artistry and tension in leading a sport route, but it is of a different nature, more athletic.
Okay, now that I have that off my chest:
Yes Healyje,
You've outed me!
My whole shtick is about bringing people together. I do not even care about the subsequent state of my first ascents so much; because to me, it's all about that experience of looking into the eyes of those people who were present with me on those adventures. It's transitory.
We are all climbers. Different preferences is one thing, but a fractious, divided and bickering community, heck, WORLD, is not my best hope for us and in some real sense, it scares the crap out of me for our future.
Anyway, yes I like to try to appeal to a model of conflict resolution where possible.
A simple distinction:
We can fight, bargain, argue for positions:
In this case the outcome is such that there is usually a winner and loser.
Alternately, if we choose to do so, we can examine interests, expand our understanding of these and perhaps come to common agreements, yes, compromises.
An example:
We all want to continue bolting, (at least in this context we're discussing).
That is common ground. Those are interests. Interests are more general than positions, not so specific.
To avoid gathering too much notice from the powers that be: this might be required to avoid the shut down of all bolting, so it might behoove us to clean up our profile, so that we don't lose all bolting privileges. That is also an interest and not a position.
So common interests are common ground. And if we care to seek a solution that serves both parties, we start evaluating and valuing these types of things and then try to come to agreements based on their recognition.
Yes I have pretty much said all of this before. No I don't have the answers. But that's not how conflict resolution works; one person doesn't walk in with the answers, the disputants have to step forward and choose to engage the process of understanding one another in hopes of seeking a solution, typically because they believe the standard adversarial process will not serve them.
We don't want a winner and loser; we want both styles to exist and flourish, um, maybe…
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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TiG - I did the first three pitches of Southern Belle with Werner. We got onto the face after the amazing crack (which I couldn't do free - had to aid a bit - 5.12c it is I think).
After a while I knew I wasn't going back up there so I told Middendorf and Shultz about it. I truly thought it might go free and wanted them to have a go at it. I thought they might be able to make it and send a little message to further first ascensionists.
They did.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Joe...weren't most of those routes done on top-rope and if they were you started at the top?"
Yes, many were top roped, but not one of those from the top, or dogged, and not one them got previewed.
"How can you have a top-rope x rated route?? Wouldn't that be a solo?"
Only through the crux on roofs, on really steep stuff you had to worry about the trees both going out and coming back in. One route, "Fear of Flying" did break one back - he made it out through the trees alright, but didn't manage to navigate back through them quite as well.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Yes, many were top roped, but not one of those from the top, and not one them got previewed.
Joe..how can you not top rope from the top??? It is called top-roping because the anchor is above you.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar...you are like Jimmy Carter trying to resolve the Middle East crisis...there is no end in sight. Sadly...this is a 100-500 year war.
:)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, we walked to the top and set anchors, walked to the base and did things ground up. Again, on that steep rock the easiest way to 'bag' those climbs would have been to bolt and dog them - but it simply isn't possible to dog with a top rope on steep rock or roofs.
Having done a lot of TR FA's I'd say we were 'sport' climbing (minus the dogging) way before sport climbing came in. All the more reason why I've never understood the inherent contradiction involved with bolting single pitch routes - either you're into 'the movement' - in which case you should dispense with clipping faux placements and just climb (on a TR) - or, on the other hand, you're into the clipping for clipping's sake for some reason as an weak emulation of placements and 'movement' really isn't as big a deal as it is often claimed to be. And I do understand it is its 'own thing' now, I just don't much care for what it has become; or what would become of the Bastille and Eldo in general if sport climbers had their way with them.
I do, however, agree with you about Tar essentially playing the role of Jimmy Carter in the ME - but that's what I like about both of them - integrity, good intentions, smart with a sense of history, and a willingness to at least try in the face of overwhelming odds. But then, hey, that also sounds like what JB ended up being all about on more than one or two climbs and walked away accomplishing something inspite of the odds. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: I do, however, agree with you about Tar essentially playing the role of Jimmy Carter in the ME - but that's what I like about both of them - integrity, good intentions, smart with a sense of history, and a willingness to at least try in the face of overwhelming odds. But then, hey, that also sounds like what JB ended up being all about on more than one or two climbs and walked away accomplishing something inspite of the odds. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...
Jimmy Carter is one of my personal heroes...love the man and what he stands for.
Bachar..along with with others have done a lot for the sport of climbing. The ball is going to keep rolling and the new will carry it when the old can no longer. I also admire what the new breed is doing...some really amazing stuff going on.
Joe...you seem like a good guy..let's hook up the next time you are in my neck of the woods.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, would love to. I'm normally in ABQ every month, although the past three months I haven't while we've been renegotiating with the folks who bought our vendor down there. I've been having to go to Milwaukee instead (bummer). But, we've just about got a new contract in place, so I should be starting to head down that way again soon with stops in Eldo as often as possible. And for that matter, all my gear is in a friend's garage in Vegas and I need to get down there at least once as well. And hell, I also need to get my ass kicked by the locals in the Sandias, while I'm at it. Will let you know when I start heading back down you're way.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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So...what if we said,rap down means hand drill,to slow the pace.Grid bolters would have to consider more thoroughly where they were going to expend their efforts.
Ground up,it seems drills,in conjunction with hooks,allow some additional options,and the pace would be similar.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Slow the pace!?
If this is a good thing, faster is better. Lower down on scaffolding, maybe with air compressor.
Could do maybe 3 routes at once! What are we waiting for.
Plus you could probably get much better deal buying bolts and bits wholesale.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Healyje,
I'm quite sure there is no way ACE, (Action Committee for Eldorado), would ever allow the retro bolting of things like the Bastille Crack, or just about any Eldo classic for that matter.
It's a very preservationist set of controls they have in place, regarding the old classics. As an example: a fellow climber of mine, who fancies himself a guide, (in my opinion more to shore up his self-professed legacy, than to actually make a living as a guide), this person petitioned for ACE to retro bolt the anchors on some of the classic 5.8’s "so they could be guided". (Of course I countered that idea from the fundamental standpoint that the guiding experience should include building anchors). ACE was having none of that idea of adding bolt anchors to classic routes where there is ample opportunity to build an anchor, so from a preservationist standpoint I think they're doing good things to quell any impetus to change those routes.
In understanding why they don't allow ground up bolting, I've indicated a bit of that before; for one, there isn't much legacy of that style of bolting in either Eldorado Canyon or the Flatirons. In the 80s, most of the bolting in the Flatirons, if not all of it, was of the top-down variety purely for sport climbing. So the current model is merely a resumption of that style. (... and I don't think it has anything to do with the death of Goukas on PowerPoint, Higher Cathedral, if that's what you were asking).
Second, they see this as a very limited set of terrain in a Mountain Park setting, very close to urban areas, not so wild at all, and subject to many gentrified climbers of the gym population. So their assertion is, even moderately run out bolted routes would be a liability for those people; and equally as strong, is the assertion that they don't want routes to exclude people, they want a style of access in terms of bolts which accommodates a broader range of users (climbers).
But here's an interesting speculation that might be made about this situation, in light of what is indicated in that last paragraph:
Piton Ron suggested a point about the democratic process up thread: to paraphrase, he asked wouldn't it be more democratic to allow a variety of styles to have their play. I think what we have here in Boulder, (notwithstanding the lack of a lot of historical precedent for ground up bolting), is the analog to the Neocon, which I might call the Neoliberal (keep in mind I'm perhaps not so politically astute). This is a style of liberal who is all in favor of instituting structures which protect us from ourselves. -Now I wonder if that was a loaded pair of statements? ...But it is an interesting thought in terms of how it might be affecting policy here in Boulder.
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jstan
climber
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Roy fairly clearly sketches out the nature of the policy decisions facing us. Depending upon density of population we may be looking at something like a vertical theme park in Eldorado, if you will. I think there is one thing we are carefully ignoring. If you are in a theme park, the equipment fails, and you are injured or killed someone can sue. Who is going to be liable during the years between now and when we reach an insured commercial theme park in Eldorado? Indeed we have commercial and would-be commercial entities interested in creating sport areas all of which are putting customers on bolts installed by god knows whom. Companies producing the personal protective equipment itself have been structuring themselves for years so as to limit their liability. Some even changed their names or created new corporate structures for this reason. How is it the actual placing of bolts has fallen through the cracks? One would think the city of Boulder, now that it is involved administratively in the placing of personal protective equipment, would be very interested in this.
Here in town a young girl suffering epileptic seizures tragically drowned while participating in a city sponsored program. The city was sued for $200,000,000. Would you believe me were I to tell you this taxpayer can't afford that?
Edit:
There was the usual waiver which is easily by-passed through claiming gross negligence.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I'm not sure John, what sort of liability firewall exists between Boulder Mountain Parks, Colorado State Parks, and the subset of climbers programs which govern/regulate/implement the bolting.
Clearly a study of that model is in order in terms of our discussion. It has to have been addressed by Action Committee for Eldorado and the Flatirons Climbing Council.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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From the Flatirons Climbing Council web site:
http://www.flatironsclimbing.com/fhrc/index.php
"The FCC will administer the permit process through its Fixed Hardware Review Committee (FHRC), and will serve in an advisory capacity only. OSMP (Open Space and Mountain Parks) will make the final determination as to whether new routes that require bolts are allowed."
This tells me Open Space and Mountain Parks takes the first hit in a litigation?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Hey Wes,
Is that rockclimbing depicted in your photo?
Or a Houdini escape artist stunt...
Just a crusty old ground-up slab climber here; fairly well "ground up", as in hamburger, at this point too.
hahahaha.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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...looks like he missed a few clips...%^)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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JStan, et al,
Another statement pulled from the Flatirons Climbing Council web site:
"The permit process operates under the guiding belief that individuals can no longer take unilateral actions that affect all climbers without community input and consensus. Toward this end, the permit process exists as a public forum to assist and regulate the installation of fixed anchors with the goal of facilitating controlled growth of quality routes and anchors in the Flatirons."
So you see here where things can go when bolting really goes mainstream. You can forget about individual expression i.e. "unilateral actions". This is where on-site ground-up routes die off. Now it could be possible that "community input and consensus" might allow for traditional style bolting, and that might be so in some areas, but in general it looks to me like: End of the Road Baby...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: So you see here where things can go when bolting really goes mainstream. You can forget about individual expression i.e. "unilateral actions". This is where on-site ground-up routes die off. End of the road baby...
Not in Boulder Canyon, or the Black or RMNP and so on...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Yes Bob,
That is correct, for now, because it hasn't come under the purview of mainstream just yet.
And I agree that those of us that choose or aspire to wild experiences, need to seek out wild and less governed spaces.
We're getting marginalized, and that's just the way it goes with overpopulation and increasing regulation, and the idea that that's a necessary evil is a laudable perspective.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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My point in all of this Bob,
Is to take a dispassionate look at what happens in an area where regulation comes to fruition.
I'm saying it's quite possible, that once that happens, especially in a place like Yosemite, it will likely be really hard for the ground up first ascent contingency to find accommodation.
This is why I recommend climbers try to settle these differences prior to governmental pressure for regulation, so that a feasible plan to accommodate multiple styles might be set forth.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: And I agree that those of us that choose or aspire to wild experiences, need to seek out wild and less governed spaces.
Front-country usage is way up and back country way down...hiking, biking and climbing along the population centers will continue to grow and grow...solitude is out there and like you said...you just have to seek it out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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I'm with you Tar when it comes to hoping that climbers could just work it out, but that seems highly unlikely. All it takes is one person with the "if I can't have her then nobody can" type attitude to blow it for everyone.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oh I recognize I'm a bit of a Pollyanna in all of this Ron.
But I enjoy the dispassionate analysis, the dialogue, and I don't think it's all for naught.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Totally pulling your leg on that stuff Wes!
And don't even talk to me about messing with Frank.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Hey Roy, has anyone disobeyed this committee and put a route up without prior approval or with approval denied? What happened to the route that was done this way?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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"And don't even talk to me about messing with Frank."
No kidding.
It's Frank's world. We just live in it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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wes wrote:Don't worry, nobody wants to remix your Frank Sinatra choss.
Now Wes don't go showing you lack of music history. Frank...was the man!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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seems like this thread is circling the drain right now...
wes is doing his wes thing, taking the old crusty's quips seriously
the old crusties are rising to wes' bait
replace wes with "sport climber"
replace "old crusty" with "trad climber"
repeat observation -
I climb, I do it in all different modes, I have my own set of standards in terms of climbs I'd put up. If you ask me my opinion about someone else's climb, I'll give it to you. If you don't agree, I'll listen to your points, might still disagree though -
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Well, aside from the folks who refuse to even imagine any sort of compromise, the fact remains that sport climbers have much less motivation to create some sort of coalition or committee to divide Yosemite into style parks. The only driver for those folks is the rather vague threat that at some point the NPS might be moved to ban fixed anchors altogether.
How many Yosemite regulars under, say 30, are fully committed to ground-up only? Under 35? Under 40?
Yosemite is going to be a much more difficult proposition than Eldo, partly because it's a National Park, partly because it has a much wider range of user groups and constituencies, and partly because of dynamics in the climbing community, namely, that it is a premiere destination for big-wall nailing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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KLK,
Yes: I'd say that's a fair appraisal.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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G_Gnome:
Not to my knowledge has any renegade bolting happened here in the Flatirons or Eldorado. The historical clamp down on bolting severely curtailed a robust sport climbing productivity, so the current pilot programs are likewise very well valued.
Regardless of any of that, I'm not aware that a lot of trad climbers here are chomping at the bit to do new bolted routes in those two areas. But I could be way off base, as I'm not really plugged into that community. I'm pretty much out of the way doing my own thing.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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It's probably a good thing that us SoCal people don't live there, one of us would do it 'just because'.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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hey wes,
have you ever been turned back from a climb you wanted to do?
I don't think so,
thank you for proving my point
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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wes wrote: When you get turned back from a trad climb, chances are you have to settle for total sh#t, or make the journey to a different area for some good climbing.
And that is a assumption based on your limited experiences...
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Trad routes are tons of fun.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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how did you get turned back? some trad was asking for your credentials? the local climbing committee turned down your application to ascend? the trad witch doctor declared it a "bad juju" day?
or was the climb already occupied... you had to wait in line? the horror..
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I've been told that before... doesn't come as a surprise that you would say it.
But actually, my point is that it is very likely that no one has ever restrained you from doing anything you wanted to do on a climb... you have been completely free to go up and retro-bolt routes the way you'd want them to be.. that you could climb, in what ever style you wanted, any route... to develop new routes in your chosen style.
What restrains you?
You call me an idiot, but so what, I disagree with lots of your arguments, I'm not going out there with a gun and blow your ass off routes I think you're executing incorrectly. Does it matter at all to you what my view point is? does it affect the way you climb? I hope not.
My idiotic point is that you are largely free to climb as you wish. You are even free to alter climbs as you wish. You might bring the wrath of the community down on your ass, but they aren't going to hunt you down...
...well maybe if you chop bolts in the Northeast... but you aren't even as obnoxious as that guy is...
Over the years you've been posting here there seems to be some strange need of yours to validate your view on climbing and invalidate the "traditional" view. You want to be right, and you want the others to be wrong.
Maybe I'm an idiot and don't see the subtly of your actual position, but you seem to post around here with a huge chip on your shoulder.
How come? don't you get out to climb enough? anywhere you want? lots of places?
So practically, this all is just a lot of BS pot stirring...
...I'm an idiot for thinking that there is any value at all here... I'll admit it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Ed wrote: So practically, this all is just a lot of BS pot stirring...
Ed...why did it take you so long to figure that one out?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Up is up, down is down.
I'm an idiot.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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"Up is up, down is down.
I'm an idiot."
Or else a very strange Buddhist.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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seems I'm in some pretty good company...
...i've only called myself an idiot, so at least I'm not a fool...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Wes wrote: Anyone who doesn't realize times have changed and the old style of establishing routes just isn't going to cut it anymore is an idiot.
You might want to rethink/reword that statement or put yourself in the idiot class.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Anyone who pays any attention to Wes....is an idiot.%^)
Just kidding Wes.....you're an idiot.
Have a smiley face...%^)
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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I don't recommend admitting to idiocracy.
1.A statutory breach.
2.Doing what a prudent person of the same group and
circumstances would not do.
3. Not doing what a prudent person of the same group
and circumstances would do.
I think that's all it takes for action.
Sometimes i'm ignorant, however after knowing i'm
reasonable and no longer ignorant.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Just got back from climbing. Did a TR FA on an sketch arete with no pro of any kind - now I do have a real dilemma: will it become my first sport climb...(oh, the humanity) or leave it a TR?
Wes, that's the sort of stuff we were doing in So.Ill. in the mid-70's knee-barred, no-hands rests and all - but we were doing them on TRs (don't know how tall that one is). It's pretty exciting and challenging doing far overhung steep on TR as, by-and-large, there's no hanging around figuring things out.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Well Healyje,
While you've been away,
Wes dissed Old Blue Eyes and now the whole bake sale is falling on its asss.
But we'll get 'er back on track.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2008 - 09:47am PT
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Anybody remember Eddy Murphy and Joe Piscipo doing Ebony And Ivory as Stevie Wonder and Frank Sinatra?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 10, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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Heallyj, can you hook your way up that arette and hand drill it? scare the piss out of yourself and probobly be pretty fun as well. Then you might have a nice clip up to enjoy... It's actually a really good feeling to watch people enjoying your hard work;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 10, 2008 - 10:18am PT
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The problem that I have with JBs rule #3 is that its kind a a wanker rule.. If your planning on climbing something then go climb it.. If someone beats you too it then snooze you lose. Theres lots of stuff I am thinking of climbing but putting off because I am too lazy or scared or whatever so If someone else comes allong and gets it done what am I supposed to do? raise a stink and say hey I was going to get arround to climbing that thing someday so I have first dibbs??
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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May 10, 2008 - 10:19am PT
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C'mon Ron let's keep it on topic mkay...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2008 - 11:25am PT
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Oh,... THAT topic.
Sheesh, when you see a page that starts with Wes calling somebody else an idiot you know its going to be a waste of psyberspace.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 10, 2008 - 11:43am PT
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t-man - Yes I hated the whole rules thing actually, but #3 was the most stupid. I just wanted to attempt a compromise to see if it was at all possible. That must have been around 1985 or so.
I had just had my ground up bolt chopped on a cilmb in Tuolumne (which I was actively working on) and the party invovled rap bolted the whole route. They couldn't even find their own project.
Point being, even if you don't "snooze", you lose.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
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I think John Stannard proposed this earlier;
But we could schedule a meeting at Yosemite Facelift to give it a shot again. Perhaps even publicize it in the mags? (To increase the likelihood of getting fair representation across the board).
Maybe do a Yahoo group, where rappel bolters could post up an intended top-down effort, and give the ground up folks an opportunity to respond, providing for their chance to have first crack at it.
Then, if things wind up being too "museumlike" after the ground up route is completed, horror of horrors, a little retro bolting could be considered so the final outcome is not so exclusive.
Or it could be voted to be left as is, if deemed worthy.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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May 10, 2008 - 01:01pm PT
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Tardaddy writes: Then, if things wind up being too "museumlike" after the ground up route is completed, horror of horrors, a little retro bolting could be considered so the final outcome is not so exclusive.
I'm all for this. If a route does not get at least 3 ascents in a fifty year span, it can be retroed for the dickless rock starved masses.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 10, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Russ is right. I would vote for a hundred year span of no ascents - then add an escalator or tramway to the route so all can enjoy.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 01:38pm PT
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You guys are on it!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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I really had no idea this would be so easy.
And fun too!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 10, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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Tar wrote: Maybe do a Yahoo group, where rappel bolters could post up an intended top-down effort, and give the ground up folks an opportunity to respond, providing for their chance to have first crack at it.
Why?
They have had numerous chances to do many routes in any style they wanted...and they haven't.
Boulder Canyon is a good case in point. Close to a popular climbing city with a solid base of trad-climbers, short approaches and routes that can be done ground up if they wanted to put the time and effort in...they just won't do it.
Most just complain after the routes are in and say they could have done better.
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
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What's gonna happen is all you guys are going to be reborn many times over and end up freaking out that your so called trad lines have become retrobolted and made sport climbs in your future lives.
You won't remember either. But you'll all become basket cases in your future lives and end up in the nut house. Yep wearing straight jackets and drooling.
I know you don't believe it, but .......
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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Ha ha!
I am in a straitjacket now Werner.
I'd have to be so, in order to be posting up any open-ended ideas on this thread.
You know Bob,
I have to agree about Boulder Canyon.
Most of the good trad lines have already been done long ago.
What's left is Choss in that regard (discontinuous and choppy, not that elegant or logical in terms of trad climbing), and I can see how what is left can work out better for sport climbing.
And although your argument might hold about trad climbers getting around to things in Yosemite, I wouldn't compare Boulder Canyon to Yosemite, not in terms of quality potential lines.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 10, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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Tar...I disagree with your assessment of Boulder Canyon, there have been many new classics done in the last five years and they could have been done ground up or by rappel.
This sh#t is really getting old...no one stopped anyone from climbing that route on Half Dome in the last 25 years...the reality of it is that no f*#king so-called trad climber wanted to make the effort to do the route. If they use half the f*#king energy they used complaining on the internet they might have a good chance of getting up the route from the ground!
Hope you know this semi-small rant is not directed at you.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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Keep in mind Bob,
As you argue for things to be left as they are, meaning unstructured, with no agreements and with a relatively laissez-faire arrangement, any of the suggestions I'm posting here are meant to address the OP, and to take a peek at what agreements might look like, or how they look in other areas of the country where they have been implemented, such as they are.
On a personal level, I have to say I don't really care a great deal what happens about all this bolting hullabaloo. But I don't mind tossing in a little intellectual grit as an aspect of my participation in, and perhaps a contribution to, the community and a sense of community.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 10, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
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Tar wrote: On a personal level, I have to say I don't really care a great deal what happens about all this bolting hullabaloo. But I don't mind tossing in a little intellectual grit as an aspect of my participation in, and perhaps a contribution to, the community and sense of community.
Funny...is that the same community that wanted to beat Henry Barber up when he came to the valley and freed some routes that locals couldn't do...the same community that called Sean and Doug rapists
and almost every other word in the book for their route...the same community that harassed Paul and Todd when they came to the valley, Alan Watts when he did the Stimga and Ray Jardine for using friends. Let not forget how that community laughed at the Huber brothers when they first came to the valley with plans to free some big walls...the list goes on...
You Cali-boys need to get over yourself's.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 03:50pm PT
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I think it's bigger than that now Bob.
To clarify: the community I am addressing is inclusive of all of those individuals and groups which you just mentioned.
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jstan
climber
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May 10, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
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Roy:
Not sure to which proposal of mine you refer, but no matter either way.
I would suggest a couple of things.
1. If involving Facelift is a possibility several of you should first sit down with Ken and mull over all the pros and cons. Are we ready for a meeting?
2. You need to think over the format or the ground rules of the meeting. I am not suggesting Robert's Rules of Order or any such but there has to be something. Suggesting a time limit is very good for helping people to prioritize what they wish to address. The meeting has to focus on something so perhaps the first few minutes might be spent defining what the group thinks the problem is? If it is too early for a meeting you will get no consensus on even this. If you do get agreement then what people feel the meeting can achieve might be discussed.
3. You need to come up with a respected neutral moderator. Ken is the natural choice but he may not want to fill this role. So that you waste no time, I am out.
Maybe something like:
What is the problem?
What can we realistically hope to achieve here?
Then what might be approaches to the problem(s)?
(It might even be that a short, perhaps smaller, meeting early in Facelift could deal with these first two parts, and then a larger meeting later could address approaches? Dunno.)
My opinion, based on 2300 posts is that discussions of climbing style lead nowhere. Probably not even the issue, I think.
It was at such a meeting that we in the Shawangunks defined our objectives, and very successfully so.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 10, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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John wrote: My opinion, based on 2300 posts is that discussions of climbing style lead nowhere. Probably not even the issue, I think.
So what issues keep us from working together???
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 10, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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John. I am well aware that those rules were put together a long time ago when you guys were in the process of dealing with a new style of climbing.. Euro invasion so to speak. Even today I wouldn't mess with someones project without asking them first but in some circles anything seems to be fair game.....
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
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Now now Bob don't put in some weird perspective.
Henry Barber did not do some routes the locals couldn't do. He climbs the route the next day after the local had cleaned the route the day before.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 10, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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Werner...is Butterballs still in the Valley??
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Mimi
climber
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May 10, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
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Bob, I'd like to offer opposing views regarding your historical accounts. As for the Sean and Doug debacle, name calling is to be expected and is totally consistent with the schoolyard brawl mentality of which I'm a proud member. The trouble is, Doug was a kind friend when I got to know him and I'd rather not comment on this controversy.
Henry had the rep for poaching routes. Common knowledge. Since when is there a shortage of bombast between rivals? I think his antics are classic despite how big an ass he could be.
Criticism of Paul and Todd was due to the disdain for their hangdogging and other tactics, nothing more. Most everyone appreciated Todd regardless.
As for the Stigma drama, Alan Watts was not the one who was being hassled, it was Todd for pre-placing pins for his attempt. When some of the pins were pulled, Alan did the ascent without them, and therefore, in better style than Todd.
My recollection of the feelings toward Jardine was that he was dogging hard routes, using these new topsecret gadgets, and eventually claiming the FFA or FA. Of course that would ruffle some feathers.
I'm pretty sure it was JB that was on the receiving end of the sucker punches. Sad sauce but nothing that wouldn't pass for fraternal love in a fine British pub.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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You both forgot the Valley Boys versus Kim Carrigan.
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Mimi
climber
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May 10, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
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I musta missed that one, like the Huber brothers.
MySourcesReport Edit: What did Kim ever do besides repeat the local testpieces with a giggle and a wink for the local lads?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
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Mimi,
It was more colorful than that; don't give it such short shrift.
Carrigan wrote an article, generally calling the Valley locals a bunch of myopic, xenophobic, flyweight, deli-bound wankers.
Then he did that America's Cup thing on the Cookie.
There's more good stuff, but as I've already shown, I don't have a mind like a steel trap for such anecdotes.
He sort of championed this whole idea of the poor sportsmanlike California-centric behavior of which Bob speaks. Perhaps somebody could post up the article; I think it had a picture of him doing the Rostrum roof in Harlequin inspired Lycra.
Anyhow, I liked him, we climbed Hotline together in '80, before the big dustup. (He lead the crux)...
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Mimi
climber
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May 10, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
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Sorry, poor attempt at trying to be subtle.
I'll try to find the article. Splendid idea.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
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I think we got our wires crossed a little bit upthread Bob.
But no matter; this is all fair game and I'm not taking it to heart here, just babbling and listing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 08:33pm PT
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Yes Mimi,
Be a dear and find us that article won't you?
It might even have "Valley Boys" in the title.
(This thread needs more cowbell).
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 10, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
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Funny stuff...I remember Kim and when he first came to America...just about walked everything. Patrick did same and what about that Moffat guy.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 10, 2008 - 11:19pm PT
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You know you guys are insane don't you? I mean, I always knew Roy was pretty far gone, but Bob had proven himself to be so far over the edge as to rival even Wes for wacko ideas. You guys really should just drop this thread. Isn't it obvious that no one cares? Only a few of us old fvcks are even reading this anymore and we all know we are lost souls too. This stuff will go down how it goes down and there is nothing anyone can or will do about it until it is way too late. Move on, there is nothing left to see here.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 11, 2008 - 12:19am PT
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Although I know that post was somewhat (only somewhat) tongue-in-cheek,
One wonders how much truth there is in that Jan.
In the original post, Ron wrote these three things:
"It is becoming a more crowded world. We are going to have to reach an accommodation or see it all lost."
"My feeling is that the trads undermine their own high point by so demonizing those who have a different view."
"So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?"
As far as this thread goes, I'm not sure I'm seeing any grand impetus to reach an accommodation. Which is fine, as it was merely put up for discussion.
Regarding the second and third quotes; this is the type of stuff that raised Bob's hackles in the last few posts: exemplified by this whole thing about California climber style arrogance and the similarities that behavior has to some of the trad community and their opinions and actions toward rap bolters.
As it turns out, and it has been echoed here by a few, it seems as though any accommodation at this point is to be made for the trad climbers, not for the sport climbers. Even though there are plenty of young trad climbers, it would be interesting to know just how many are feeling pushed out their active first ascent opportunities by the prevalence of rappel bolting.
I ask this, because I agree with what Bob said about Boulder Canyon. Trad climbers really hadn't done anything there for years, then when sport climbing started happening there in a big way, a lot of the old guard rose up in indignation.; this wasn't like John Bachar, 20 years ago in Tuolumne, experiencing overwhelming competition for stone.
Is a lot of this opposition toward top-down tactics in fact more a phenomenon of aging trad climbers who speak out on this forum and in towns like Boulder. How many young climbers in Yosemite are feeling put out by the new route on Half Dome?
I'd like to see trad survive, I think sport climbing is cool too. Just how robust is the current trad FA bolting movement and how can we assess that?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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May 11, 2008 - 12:20am PT
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Two words: Smoot Syndrome (or was it Valley Syndrome, by Smoot. Fire up the scanner.)
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 12:31am PT
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Don't worry .....
Old school will never die.
It's the foundation that everything is built upon.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 11, 2008 - 12:38am PT
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I believe that Werner.
But from what I know, not that this is a problem, most young climbers focus their trad experiences on gear routes.
Around here, they rehearse and red point nasty cracks with poor pro; almost head point style. When they "clip bolts", they are thinking sport climb. I'm not so sure many of them are running out to look for stance drilling experiences.
James would know.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 11, 2008 - 12:41am PT
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That's right Russ.
Jeff Smoot and the Valley Syndrome!
Boy, we could have some fun with that...
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 12:42am PT
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No no
Traditional climbing will die on the surface.
The old school will become forgotten and lost over time.
The great masters will be far and between.
And then many many moons in the far far future.
They will return ......
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 11, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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Like Yoda?
Cool.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 11, 2008 - 02:35am PT
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Sort of tongue in cheek.... ....always....
I think at some point in the next 10 years some of the runout nasties will start to get done again. Some of the younger guys I boulder with are heading there. Like you said Roy, they still think trad is gear. They are starting to learn.
At the same time, I think a lot of us older climbers who understood that half of hard climbing was keeping your head together on long runouts are disappointed to see that ethic die and are spouting off trying to save it.
Bob is just an anti California guy who is jealous of the notoriety of those very same California hard men who were famous at a time that all Colorado had to offer was Pat and his boy toy Christian.
Besides, Werner is always right, isn't he?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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G gnome wrote: Bob is just an anti California guy who is jealous of the notoriety of those very same California hard men who were famous at a time that all Colorado had to offer was Pat and his boy toy Christian.
Like I said before get over yourself. :)
My climbing partner a well known Cali-boy thinks that the stagnant attitude of the locals in Yosemite set standards back 20 years. Makes you think...
It one thing thinking your the best and another being the best...
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 11, 2008 - 02:56am PT
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Just funnin' with you Bob. You climb with Jack don't you? We all know he is a hardman.
I think the valley still has that affect on those who spend too much time there. There are lots of other great places to climb and other great climbers. But the whole idea of getting any sort of agreement out of the lot is absurd. I think Wes is a perfect example of that.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 10:55am PT
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posted upthread was an essay by Frank Smythe titled: [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=588524&msg=589666#msg589666"]Expediency[/url] and it is worth contemplating why he chose that title, and what his main point was; I believe this is the crux of the issue, a long running issue, in this sport.
The point is: why do what is expedient instead of waiting to do what is consistent with our tradition.
Of course, this could be a broader societal discussion and has the larger relevance to the source of generational disagreements. After all, who among us did not think we knew better than our parents when we were 19?
Anyway, the point is, the lines are there to be done in what ever style we choose. Smythe asks the question of himself: what if I did a climb using all the artifice at my disposal now, and find out later that it could have been done without resorting to that artifice?
Why is expediency a valid reason for transgressing the traditional "rules" of climbing?
In all I have read about so-called climbing ethics, this one essay is the deepest, in my opinion. A well spring from which all the other discussions should flow.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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Good job Ed for remaining focused.
Threading the tiny eye of the needle takes a steady and sober approach.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Ed...looking back it seems to me that the climbs were somewhat secondary to friendships earned and time spend with some pretty amazing people. I think we do take this all to serious at times and lose our perspective. Thankfully I have my wife, children and a few good friends to get me back on track when I derail!
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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On the mark again, Ed.
Bob, it's not whether you're the best, it's whether you did your best. To believe the Valley locals 'set standards back 20 years' by not supporting hangdogging or rapbolting routes is a shortsighted attitude. Saying the Valley locals had a stagnant attitude is also ridiculous. Incidentally, maybe this reaction against the Valley ethic was due to many climbers getting their asses kicked with each visit.
The locals were doing their best without robbing future climbers or gridbolting the area simply because they wanted to compete against the Euros. I presume you believe that the 'museum' climbs are also robbing the future.
Pushing the standards using these tactics is a result of impatience and expediency. And ego, of course. Was it really that beneficial to climbing as a whole that 5.14 was attained sooner than later? The rock is still there, climbers, as have all athletes, continue to improve with each generation.
Did you support the bolting ban in the Gunks? Would the Gunks be better off today if you and your pals were allowed to drill away? If the 'future' had arrived there, would you be a happier man now?
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jstan
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 11:40am PT
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"Ed...looking back it seems to me that the climbs were somewhat secondary to friendships earned and time spend with some pretty amazing people. I think we do take this all to serious at times and lose our perspective. Thankfully I have my wife, children and a few good friends to get me back on track when I derail! "
Bob:
I don't know what to do with the above.
Are you now saying,
" I really do value all of your friendships more than I thought and so will listen much more carefully to what you think we should do with the rock we share."
Or are you saying,
"It is the friendships that really count so it does not make any difference what I do to the rock we all share."
I'd kinda like to know.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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Mimi...nice...glad to see you are holding the torch for the Valley Boys. Funny how many other climbers don't share your perspective.
Mimi wrote: The locals were doing their best without robbing future climbers or gridbolting the area simply because they wanted to compete against the Euros. I presume you believe that the 'museum' climbs are also robbing the future.
Seems you presume wrong... it safe to say I done my fair share of museum climbs..so you don't want to go there! Get off the "future shit" in the valley. They just didn't like certain people and their style.
As to the Gunks...no I don't support a total bolting ban and the crew that was for bolting some routes...thier voices fell on deaf ears. The Gunks are private and so be it.
Your grid bolting remark is a typical response to instill fear. A overworked tactic in today world.
John... both. As to the rock part...a honest and responsible approach is the best way to get things done. My examples would be the San Luis Valley and Shelf Rd when it comes to land managers and users creating a medium that fits most and not a few.
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 12:05pm PT
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Overworked tactics are the core of this discussion, Bob. Surely, you acknowledge that gridbolting exists. It's then merely a question of the grid spacing, isn't it?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
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Mimi wrote: Overworked tactics are the core of this discussion, Bob. Surely, you acknowledge that gridbolting exists. It's then merely a question of the grid spacing, isn't it?
Yes is does...so what is your point?? You think every area in going to be turns into a grid-bolting f*#k up?
Another fear tactic that I not buying.
The core of this discussion had so little to do with environmental concern as to dislike of personal climbing style.
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jstan
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 12:17pm PT
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Thanks to the bolting ban in the Gunks there is an area presently in its natural state, at least as regards bolts. So I can pose the following:
When someone proposes to change the status quo the burden also falls on them to project any long term consequences of their change and show how deleterious result can be avoided. So let me ask:
Were you to propose new bolting in the Gunks or if you were to propose going into entirely new areas to develop routes using bolts, what is the proposal you have made as regards management of the activity?
If you see "grid bolting" as not being a problem then you do not owe us an answer. Otherwise, I believe you do. You must have thought about it.
EDIT:
You say " Areas do not necessarily become "grid bolted". So how do you propose the areas that do tend toward grid bolting be managed?
EDITEDIT ED:
In reality I think Grid bolting is a term a person uses whenever their personal sensitivity to the non-natural state has been exceeded. Bob also has such a threshold and I am sure it comes before the state wherein the rock is so tightly bolted it cannot be directly touched. Whatever his personal threshold, when he finds an area that exceeds his threshold he will begin posting on ST now to the other side.
Terminology aside when a person proposes to change the status quo they have the responsibility to contemplate downstream consequences. In this case those consequences are hard to estimate due to individual differences but that difficulty does not remove the responsibility. Indeed that difficulty, and not "style", may be an important reason many of us object to this practice. As it has been carried out it is irresponsible.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 12:18pm PT
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specifics, please...
I've heard areas being "grid bolted" but I'm not sure I've climbed in any of them. The only sport area I think I've climbed in is Owens River Gorge, which is heavily bolted. I liked the climbing, and it did seem very popular, with lots and lots of people climbing a la an outdoor gym. Is ORG considered "grid bolted?"
There are some "gear routes" there, but I suspect few climb them. So side-by-side is a difficult comparison. And most routes do not go to the rim (actually do any routes?) and I believe most routes are essentially a half a rope length or shorter.
What other areas?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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John..again...the Gunks are a trust and private. Use public lands as an example and then we can discuss it.
I don't blame grid-bolting for all the ills of the sport of climbing...word your question better and then I'll give you my response.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 12:47pm PT
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John wrote:Indeed that difficulty, and not "style", may be an important reason many of us object to this practice. As it has been carried out it is irresponsible.
John...listen to what I am writing...I helped developed two major climbing areas in Colorado, Shelf Rd and the San Luis Valley. From the start we were in contact with the land managers and created a working relationship that is healthy and exist to this day.
We installed trails, bathrooms and camping sites and the areas are considered multi-use. I was given volunteer of the year in Colorado by the BlM in 1993. I'm proud of the work I have done and the enjoyment that these areas have bought to climbers and other users in the past twenty years.
John....give me an example of a grid bolted area that you been too. You sound like GWB and the WMD thing...I know they are out there but I just can't prove it.
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 12:54pm PT
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Bob, during your development at these two areas, how did you guys collectively, handle future route density and bolt spacing issues beyond your own work?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 01:00pm PT
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Mimi wrote:Bob, during your development at these two areas, how did you guys collectively, handle future route density and bolt spacing issues beyond your own work?
We tried to do our best...that is all anyone can do. I am not a control freak...I don't do climbs that are distasteful to me or go areas that are either.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 11, 2008 - 01:31pm PT
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Bob...(re: san-louis) Penitene is not a great example, I know
it's not yours (or my) fault its an overbolted mess now,
but it is.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 02:03pm PT
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Tommy Caldwell is always getting his ass kick in the Valley...:)
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 02:45pm PT
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Bob, you're missing the point. Everyone gets a spanking in Yosemite at one time or another.
Not wanting to seige and hangdog a route into submission is IMO, protecting an area's integrity, not stagnating in it. That the scene didn't stay in Yosemite and moved elsewhere as it always does, doesn't by itself invalidate the past standards and accomplishments in Yosemite. There was a point to it all.
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jstan
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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Bob:
Csdude writes the San Luis that you initially developed "is now an overbolted mess." This is exactly the point I was raising when discussing a developer's responsibility to look ahead. Are you or will you be looking ahead in your future activities?
In the same post where you gave as examples the two areas you developed while discussing some of my objections, out of left field you cited "GWB" and "WMB". In the old days ad hominem involved attacking an idea through attacking a person. In recent years we have added to this capability believing if we can merely associate someone's name with a sound byte like GWB or WMD we are freed from the need to address an issue. Remember "swiftboat?" It is even a verb now.
You know I am just one person. You can ignore my concerns. But all your customers are just people and when one of your customers has a problem you have to get right down in the dirt and deal with it. If you do not you will soon be out of business. I have to ask. You are not trying to deal with the issues I, and a whole lot of others are raising. Is it because no money is involved? That is the only thing that separates us from your customers, is it not?
At the time of the Gunks meetings one of the people very honestly and forthrightly stood up and said his climbing was not as much fun now that he was making it partly his livelihood. Since that time he has become a well-known professional and has conducted himself admirably IMO. It is a very tough job combining these things and doing it while treating everyone the way they have every right to be treated. It is many times harder than is this business of actually scrambling around on the rock, again IMO.
In these discussions we, myself included, need to do much much better than we have been doing. By two or three grades, at least.
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 03:57pm PT
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Los contradiciones de la Weenie Way.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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John wrote: Bob:
Csdude writes the San Luis that you initially developed "is now an overbolted mess." This is exactly the point I was raising when discussing a developer's responsibility to look ahead. Are you or will you be looking ahead in your future activities?
John...csdude is wrong. His statement is vague at best and does not address what the mess is!! There has only been a handful of new routes in Penitente in the last 10-15 years... Access areas have been limited and maintained trails now exist where hunters and four-wheelers use to romp through. Maintained campsites and bathrooms have been put in where people (not just climbers) used to camp and sh#t all over the place.
My using GWB & WMD was not an attack on you...you still haven't given me a example of grid-bolted area that you have been too.
Is your opinion base on hearsay or fact???
You are taking one person word because it supports your agenda.
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 04:31pm PT
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D'Arth d'Antonio. How does it feel to have gone over to the Dark Side? LOL! The road to hell is paved with PortaPotties!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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Mimi..it feels quite good...thanks for asking.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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Mimi wrote: Not wanting to siege and hangdog a route into submission is IMO, protecting an area's integrity, not stagnating in it. That the scene didn't stay in Yosemite and moved elsewhere as it always does, doesn't by itself invalidate the past standards and accomplishments in Yosemite. There was a point to it all.
So sieging and hang dogging are bad but beating big walls into submission on daily basis with rivet, bashie's and pins is ok and upholds the integrity of the Valley.
Thanks for making that so clear!
Los contradiciones de la Mimi Way
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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Geeze, Bob. Did you avoid or simply miss the entire WOS thread collection and the multitude of clean aid discussions on here??!!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2008 - 08:48pm PT
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Jstan. you keep bringing up the gunks bolt ban and I have to tell you that is one of my all time ethics pet peeves. The Gunks are graced with well over a thousand climbs that are well protected with horozontal cracks which readily accept pitons, nuts, cams, tricams etc. So here we have a bunch of guys sitting on a gold mine of naturaly protectable climbs and they decide on a bolt ban. Fine, go for it. You still have over 1,000 well protected climbs in your back yard. The real CRAPPY part is when you then think that you can tell other climbing areas that they can't have bolts. THAT SUCKS!! Your sittining there fat and happy with all your climbs telling some poor sod with a crackless cliff that they shouldn't bolt it. Thats kind of like a farmer from the northeast trying to tell a farmer from the southwest how to manage their water...My thought has allways been BUGGER off and manage your own damn cliff and leave mine alone.
PS Only climbed Pennitente once about 10 yrs ago but it seemed like a nice place. didn't see that there grid boltin I was warned about.....
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 11, 2008 - 09:12pm PT
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Bob Di'antonio writes
"John...csdude is wrong. His statement is vague at best and does not address what the mess is!! There has only been a handful of new routes in Penitente in the last 10-15 years... "
Well you can see were this becomes a matter of subjective
opinion. I think it is....
Example-
Mission in the rain gets put up...
Mission in the sun gets put up 10 ft away..
Mission in the snow gets put up between the two.
Thats what some call "grid bolting" and several other
walls are just about as bad.
Someone also went and added bolts to established routes
such as "not my cross to bear" -got 2 added.
There is a bolted 2" crack in rock canyon.
Then someone (alex) retro bolted several easy things we've each
soloed, I mean c'mon...this is what top ropes are for, they
don't need all those feakin' bolts.
And lastly there is a chiseled hold on "virgin no more"
Your route I believe.
The improvements you mention are good, but what was once a nice pristine canyon (with a huge Virgin painted on a rock) is
now basicaly a climbing gym on a nice day.
Just my humble opinion, maybe I'm wrong.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Hedge - Ron Kauk and I did the first free ascent of the Rostrum (ground up, no falls) - we used the escape pitch at the top (5.10b/c).
Just for historical purposes. Thx, jb
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 11, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
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When you do new routes , here is what you get to hear;
Too many bolts
Not enough bolts
Man, that rock is choss
Too short
You ruined that route
Why did you climb THAT?
Isn't that illigal?
You put the bolts in the wrong spots.
You put the bolt too high
You put the bolt too low
You should have put in a pin instead of a bolt.
You should have put in a bolt instead of a pin.
You went the wrong way
The first bolt is too high
The first bolt is too low.
You didn't rap bolt did you?
You didn't put that up on the lead, did you?
You didn't hand drill , did you...(You idiot)
YOu didn't use a power drill did you ( You idiot)
That route will Never get done again.
You stole that route from me.
There are already too many climbs on that wall.
Your bolts ruined my wilderness experience.\
Those bolts suck
Why didn't you use stainless steel?
You put the anchor in the wrong place.
Those hangers suck.
That route should never have been done
You only climb for your ego.
That route name sucks.
That is a serious waste of bolts.
Why didn't you just top rope the climb?
All your routes are choss.
You pulled the rope and went for the red point, didn't you?
You didn't hang on hooks, did you? (That's cheating)
You didn't clean the route enough.
You cleaned the route too much
I can't ever find your climbs.
I soloed that years ago with Matt Cox.
If you bolt that route, I will chop it, (And kick your ass).
You are going to get someone killed.
Why didn't you put in a sport anchor?
Why did you put in a sport anchor?
All you really need to say is thank you. That works for me....what do you think, Bob D'Antonio?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2008 - 09:33pm PT
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fatty, Just trying to point out that what works for one area may not work for annother area with diferent rock/features etc. On a broader scale its like the pickel that farmers and country folk in NY sate find themself in. There is a problem in NYC so the state legislature passes a law to fix that problem yet the farmer in the northcountry has to abide by the same law regardless of the fact that his/her situation could not be any more different from that of NYC if he was on the moon.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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Back on topic...
How come those guys in Elbsandstein still stick to the ground up thing?
How do they do it?
Why do they care?
In 2002, I gave a slide show in Bratislava and talked to some climbers from that area. I asked them what they do when Euro dudes come up and try to rap bolt something. One of them said, " While rap bolter is still finishing the last bolts we are hiking to base with crow bars. The bolts are gone in fifteen minutes."
I said, "Whoah".
He smiled.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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Good post Todd!
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ghand
Sport climber
Golden,Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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csdude wrote:
Then someone (alex) retro bolted several easy things we've each
soloed, I mean c'mon...this is what top ropes are for, they
don't need all those feakin' bolts.
This refers to Mr.Breeze, a truely fantastic place for children. My youngest daughter led it when she was 9 (14 years ago). There are pictures of 4 year olds leading it. Penitente is one of the most child friendly areas. Families are there with strollers and playpens. We went camping and climbing there last year with our grandchildren. There is always a line at these climbs. Do the bolts on this route really bother you that much?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 11:36pm PT
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The Gunks ban was not a compromised deal...it was a one way street.
The San Luis Valley is a user friendly area that offers good camping, climbing, hiking, mountain biking picnicking in spectacular setting.
csdude wrote: The improvements you mention are good, but what was once a nice pristine canyon (with a huge Virgin painted on a rock) is
now basicaly a climbing gym on a nice day.
Just my humble opinion, maybe I'm wrong.
You have no idea what the canyon looked like before climber showed up...like a lot of things in your post...just speculation.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 11, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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Ok...I'll accept the user friendlyness of the area
and some safe easy routes etc.
I was there from the beginning when there were only a
few routes and it was a wild and beautiful place.
That quality is now lost as row after row of shinny bolts
glisten in the sunlight.
Anyway thats not Bobs fault and I just thought it wasn't
the greatest example for his original point which I forgot
what was anyway.
-end tangent
What I would really like to ask Bob is if he is familiar with the sports park in Boulder canyon and his thoughts on it.
For those not familiar with that, it was a somewhat chossy
crag just a few miles from the Castle and it's famous trad routes.
Rolofson showed me this place, apparently this area was
completley contrived for sport climbing with high density
bolting and chiseled routes. A few people went up there with
compressors, chisels, bars, generators, lighting and even
kerosean heaters and made their own little climbing gym.
I guess some folks wern't to thrilled by it all.
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ghand
Sport climber
Golden,Colorado
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May 12, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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Certainly the Sport Park is a low point in how to bolt, and that is putting it mildly. That said, it was also one of the most crowded areas. I have not been there in a few years, but it is a good place to take beginners because of lots of easy routes. I hear some like to dry tool there.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 12:10am PT
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And now for a question, anyone.
If there was a blank 60 foot boulder in your back yard, (you own the property and the boulder).
Would you (anyone), do anything un-natrual to it to make it climb-able, or would you leave it in it's original state?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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Is is just a rock, or a reincarnation of someone I may not have liked? Up to 400 posts while I've been climbing and doing Mother's Day - I'll have to play catch-up tomorrow.
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 05:52am PT
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TMC
Your point about the differences between areas is entirely correct. In a nutshell here is what I have been saying.
1. When the first bolt goes in you create a huge management problem.
2. When you put a bolt in you have to take responsibility for the problem you are creating.
3. You take that problem into consideration when you listen to others BEFORE you put the bolt in.
4. If the problem is taken into consideration in this way you will not end up with boltless areas. You will end up with areas that the people in general feel is a reasonable compromise. That is where we are trying to go.
5. That is why I have long argued once in, a bolt needs to stay till there is agreement it has to go.
None of this resembles a jolly good time where you go out and have lots of fun. A question. If one is primarily interested in avoiding difficulty, isn't going climbing an oxymoron? Going climbing just for the exercise isn't smart either. It is a really poor way to get exercise. It generates adrenaline not endorphins. If people are arguing about bolts it isn't even a pleasant way to hang with friends.
So why do I not argue for going to areas just to bitch in front of people about the bolts? Because them I may go to areas where people have come to an accommodation and bitching then is destructive.
Have you noticed that the problem nearly always erupts
when the rate at which bolts are going in is high?
That is the characteristic that crops up again and again. And it does so because no attempt at accommodation is being made. Accommodation takes time. So finally we have come to the real reason for this fight.
People are being denied a say in the way a shared resource is being used.
When bolts are being pulled out to make way for via ferratas we will still have the same argument and for the same reason. The technology will just be different.
Bob:
About the gunks. Do me a favor. Pretend for a moment you have responsibility for managing that place and stand in front of a mirror and read your posts. Nobody listening, eh?
Ultimately:
I will never understand how such intelligent, energetic, and wonderfully talented people have sunk this low in this stupid problem. I have seen what you people can do. You can be so awesome it is almost scary.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 12, 2008 - 06:22am PT
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Even the bolted anchors in the Gunks have created problems.There is an epidemic of toproping at what is arguably the most trad friendly crag imaginable.
Grid bolting exists Bob.Look at the photo Wes posted,see the draws below the route the guy is hanging on?
I can't imagine the Gunks without a bolt ban.At first a route every twenty feet,until some well meaning person starts putting them in between...
Some bolting(nationally) seemed like a good idea,unfortunately what we did not see coming,I did not see anyway,is the drills.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 12, 2008 - 08:45am PT
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Each area evolves it's own nuance, and ethics
there is no 'one size fits all'
I've climbed at Penitente. It's a fragile place, I'm glad for the campground, and the portapotties. The sport nature seems to compliment the area. Great for families, though if you have kids be alert for buzz worms.
I have never climbed in Dresden, but I admire the hell out of their ethic! Keep crowbars at the ready.
A great side by side scenario is in South Dakota. the runout Needles and the top down Rushmore area. Spend a day in each and savor the disparate zen... two different disciplines.
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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May 12, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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Great post Todd. Many of those comments come from folks who have never established a route.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 12, 2008 - 10:25am PT
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Here's another twist on the "locals" issue, the beating death of surfer Emery Kauanui Jr. in La Jolla, allegedly by 5 other surfers, members of a "group" calling itself the Bird Rock Bandits, BRB. Apparently the BRB enforced "local rights" to the Windansea break off La Jolla, using physical intimidation to keep non-locals out of "their" territory.
'"We are a community of well-educated, family-oriented people," the local paper, La Jolla Light said in an editorial. "How can it happen here?"'
Surf break is spatial-temporal construct which depends on many natural conditions to conspire to create a surfable area. These areas can sustain only a limited number of surfers during ideal conditions.
Who decides which surfers get to surf? Who should decide?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/us/12surfer.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 10:27am PT
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John...Eldo, the Gunks, Yosemite amd almost every other so-called trad area has issues and big ones.
Bolts are a very small part of the equation.
Todd...great post. Hitting the nail on the head several times.
John...you seem so tickled pink by the effort of the Facelift...that type of effort has been happening in the SLV and Shelf Rd for over 20 years.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 12, 2008 - 10:51am PT
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Bob, I don't agree with your assertion that "bolts are a very small part of the equation," they are some of the most apparent alterations that climbers make of the rock which are noticed by non-climbers.
My wife, who doesn't climb but has been around climbing nearly as long as I have, doesn't understand why we are allowed to bolt in wilderness areas (or any area) and continually asks me why we bolt at all. To her, it is an unnecessary alteration which should not be tolerated. Second only to "gardening" lines on FAs, it is the quickest way to a heated debate in my household.
Since pin scaring was eliminated by "new" equipment and the transformation of the community to it's use, bolts have been the last sanctioned, intentional modification of the natural landscape climbers have tolerated. The whole issue has revolved around where to draw the line, just how many bolts are acceptable? How easy should it be to put them in? Should they be allowed at all? Land use managers have meetings over this...
Bolting is a very large issue.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 11:07am PT
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Ed...it 's the human equation. chalk parking, trail erosion etc...are way bigger issues in Eldo, the Gunks and Yosemite than bolts. A lot of sling anchors in Eldo have been replaced by....bolt anchors which have a less visual impact that slings.
It really the human equation and how we deal with issues when they arise. Cars driving to and from the Gunks and the Valley on a weekly basis would seem to be a bigger environmental issue than bolts on a wall.
Ed...what does your wife like to do for recreation??
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 11:35am PT
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Bob, you can't define the issue away. Read the comments.
Conservation efforts exist in almost all areas and deserve everyone's support. In order for these to exist people have to work together and compromise. Which poses a huge question. Since people are so able to work together and compromise
how is it we even have a bolting problem?
How?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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Hold it there Ed,
pin scarring eliminated? Since when?
Hammering on aid routes is far more insidious than bolting, generally a one time alteration, because of its progressive and cumulative nature. In the end it could alter more rock than drills.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 12, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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It seems to be Jump on Bob Time right now.
I guess you've been here before.
I have one to add to your growing list of questions.
I could be wrong, but places like Shelf Road, seem fairly focused in terms of appetite to sport climbers and sport bolting. So that appears to be, for the most part, appropriately a designated sport area in terms of terrain and inclination. (Perhaps someone like John Bachar would have preferred to do those routes ground up, but I'm thinking that's the outside case). I'm sure nobody is stopping anybody from bolting ground up at Shelf Road, so an even more strict example to top down only is the Flatirons of Boulder.
As an example to the opposite, is the Pinnacles of California, which is subject to trad bolting only. Also currently on that side of the fence, the trad fence, even though its private property, is the Gunks, with no new bolting whatsoever.
My question(s) Bob:
Some areas are currently mixed sport and trad; while other areas are distinctly one or the other.
Can you see leaving areas as limited to strictly trad bolting or even no bolts? As a sport bolter, do you believe that is a fair concession in certain instances? Or do you believe that there is no area which should be closed to sport bolting? (leaving the private property situation out for the moment).
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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John wrote: how is it we even have a bolting problem?
How?
We have climbing issues John...and bolts are a part of them.
Sorry you can't see that.
Tar...yes...simple enough??
Funny that I am getting interrogated by John when in the last 25 years I been a pro-active climber when it came to access, trail work, bolt and anchor replacement and other issues dealing with the climbing community. I was the first coordinator for Celebrate Eldorado, serve on ACE, volunteer of the year for the state of Colorado for the BLM in 1992 and to this day continue to do real world work on climbing issues.
John...I asked you a number of questions that you will not respond to.
What sport and trad-climbing areas have you been too in the last 15 years and what have you done to help access and climbing issues?
Tar wrote: It seems to be Jump on Bob Time right now.
I guess you've been here before.
Yes I have and it is usually the arm chair quarterbacks who make the biggest noise.
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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No Bob. If people took into consideration the opinions of others before placing bolts we would have bolts, but no bolting problem.
I will repeat what I said above. Through their support of conservation efforts climbers generally have shown their willingness to compromise and to work together.
So why is there a bolting problem?
Ron:
Your point is entirely valid IMO. Where pinning has continued, for whatever reason, the climbers in an area have a choice to make. They should include bolts as one candidate technology, if technology is thought to be the answer. As always, the specific situation which the people will take into consideration, should guide their choice. But that decision needs to be broadly based.
In the early seventies before improved nuts came out I was so bold as to ASK if it were possible we needed to redefine where on the rock it might be necessary for us not to go any longer. The times were so painful I sensed the question was actually being asked. Better equipment then came out and later even better new kinds came out, thereby relieving us of the necessity to choose such a thing. No one was more relieved than myself.
But people did begin to ask this question. Asking it required both courage and discipline.
Edit:
Clean up of points.
Grid bolting:
Go back up to my edit on the point raised by Ed. That's what I think grid bolting is.
What have I done:
After my efforts on the east coast during the sixties and the seventies I retired.
Do you require some sort of status in the climbing world before you will listen to someone? Examine yourself. If so this is a deadly failing.
Why do I pick on you:
Bob you are presenting yourself as a leader in the climbing world. Read above. At the same time you persist in saying there is no problem where you are getting a lot of comments insisting there is a problem. Are we to presume this is the behavior characteristic of a leader?
I am suggesting the primary characteristic of a leader should be their willingness to follow. A leader who does not listen is entirely limited by their personal weaknesses and may well lead to failure. Just look about you to see the evidence for this.
Our task here is to make you a better leader. You can do it, if you will but listen.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 12, 2008 - 01:06pm PT
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Has anyone here NOT established routes ??
Now you guys are being silly.
This is a debate, and a pretty good one, I sorta think.
There are different opinions about this. I just
find it interesting that some won't even acknowlege
the other sides point.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 12, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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Who would we ask? Those who think their opinion matters? They are usually the ones who are not climbing.
Great post Todd.
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
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"Those who think their opinion matters."
We may, finally, have reached the heart of the bolting problem.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 12, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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Tomcat,
Even the bolted anchors in the Gunks have created problems. There is an epidemic of toproping at what is arguably the most trad friendly crag imaginable.
Your choice of the word "epidemic" is peculiar. It does not help to answer any questions because it connotes a disease.
FWIW. The Gunks are crowded. Yesterday - (Sunday, if you frequent the area, you know what that means), I was able to lead Jackie and Classic. (Bolts to preserve the tree there.)
We first did Jackie (actually, after Horseman), even though we went there for Classic, because it became free while a second took a very long time following her leader on Classic. My partner was able to dispatch Jackie, cleaning my gear, quickly as we hoped to do Classic as soon as they finished. In the mean time, a party showed up and jumped on Classic as she was climbing Jackie. So instead of rapping off, she lowered and quickly climbed a variation of Jasmine/Jackie (to avoid conflict with the new Classic leader). I then TR'ed Jasmine and rapped off.
We returned and got Classic a bit later.
All of this occurred on a Sunday (think really busy), precisely because those bolts made it fairly simple to coexist happily there. Certainly the Classic tree is better off.
Most of the true top-roping routes have no bolts - At this time I can't even think of one - but there might be some.
So maybe "cure" is better description than "epidemic"!
Consider also the reduction in time spent building anchors. I think many trad climbers would actually like to see more bolted anchors, if for no other reason than being able to speed up the process, effectively getting more climbing traffic (less waiting time) on a limited resource.
:-)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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So, Wes, it's your idea that a 'tyranny of democracy' - made up almost entirely of people who are only able to define themselves as 'climbers' because of wholly bolted lines - should be able to define climbing? And that new definition should be risk-free entertainment at the expense of rock?
Because that is what you claiming and it will be the exact same argument used down the road to install via ferratas in climbing areas so everyone can be a 'climber'.
Personally, I consider it pandering, not leadership.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 12, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
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TIG.Most of my Gunks climbing took place in the eighties.I've been there once,twice or three times each year of late.I would have to stand by my statement,an epidemic of toproping.
Used to be(I know,I know)just about no one toproped right of the Uberfall.Now people camp on everything.We actually come to see the show as much as climb.I will cite the following recent incidents and try to do so without prejudice.
We start up Frogs Head,after waiting for the second of two Canadians to get to the ledge.They are maxxed,so I step left and make a gear anchor to stay out of their hair.The leader is sketching on those first moves off the ledge and the belayer has the rope wrapped all around himself.We wait.I tell Tradchick we will just slide onto the bolt anchor after they leave,so she can sit back.Not so fast.A guide,complete with monogrammed polo shirt has been toproping City Lights,yep,on Sunday,and decided to move his anchor over to the right of us.He states he is planning to construct an independant gear anchor.He climbs behind us,can't make an anchor and leashes into the bolt anchor instead while explaining how we are not affected.Good of him,he then pulls all his rope across us.Now he has one of those u shaped constructs going.We are outta there.
We trudge down to Never Never Land.A threesome has a toprope going,five hours later we return,they are still on it.One person led one route here.Three in party.
We'll just finish our day on Sente.There is a party toproping Thin Slabs Direct.They are unable to do the route.The guy is basically just burning rubber while mumbling about his shoes.Upon discovering they can not climb this 5.7,they slide over onto Sente as soon as we pass.They can't climb that either.
We climb City Lights and finish up Pas de Deux.The anchor is taken so I just belay off gear,but would like to rap when they are through.Before they clear that anchor a guy all full of bristle thrashes in from another climb and starts threading the anchor,which is again,in use,and we are pretty clearly next on.Some words ensue.
One thing I have learned TiG.Gunkies tend to view climbing in the Gunks perspective.You are accustomed to this sort of thing.We found that it was impossible to plan a day of climbing there anymore,as people get on routes routinely for half a day.That only happens with toproping.We spent twenty minutes doing Sente,maybe forty on NNL.
Appears that the big thing with the bolt anchors are those two route loops.Used to be you could go all weekend and not see a toprope right of Ken's Crack.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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John wrote: Why do I pick on you:
Bob you are presenting yourself as a leader in the climbing world. Read above. At the same time you persist in saying there is no problem where you are getting a lot of comments insisting there is a problem. Are we to presume this is the behavior characteristic of a leader?
What are you eight years old?? I didn't say you picked on me.
And can you read what I write?? I said there was CLIMBING ISSUES and bolting is one of the issues.
You have no ideas what the real issues are sport areas as you have been so far out the loop for so long. Even back in the day you were against bolts...nothing has change in your world of climbing but much has in mine. You have done nothing to address these problems other than wank on the internet.
To me John...Actions in the climbing world speak louder than words.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2008 - 04:28pm PT
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Jstan, you say that as soon as you place the first bolt that's when the problems start. What a load of Crap!
Change that to as soon as the word gets arround that there is good climbing to be had, Now that is when the problems start. The bolts have very little to do with it. I have been to pleanty of trad areas that are trashed with social trails and human caused erosion that is 100 times more noticeable than any bolts... I have been to sport areas that have decent trail systems and erosion control.The bolts are more of a clash of styles problem than an enviro problem....
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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May 12, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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from John Bachar
to* ,
dateMon, May 12, 2008 at 11:12 AM
subjectRe: Trad climb?'s
mailed-byacopausa.com
hide details 11:12 AM (2 hours ago) Reply
Maybe. The ST is a big mess most of the time but there might
come something one of these days.
jb
On May 12, 2008, at 8:33 AM, * wrote:
What about posting this in a relevant thread when found?
On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 2:59 PM, John Bachar wrote:
On May 10, 2008, at 10:51 AM, * lawbes@gmail.com wrote:
Good morning John,
came across this. Looks like TBY on Medlicott? Who's having fun (falling)?
/*Edited to reduce redundancy. */
[img]
[/img]
Do you know the name of the 5.10(b) equivalent? I forgot the
name though I think the route is also on Medlicott? Another Ron
not Kauk wrote a article about the 2 routes that was published
in the late 80's in R&I or another magazine I purchased. I think
his name was Ron Olevesky? I can't remember if you put up the
5.10(b) also?
John wrote:
Not Ron Olevsky. Alan Nelson did, Kurt Smith, Steve
Schneider...I can't remember.
Bryce wrote: I think the article was about Ron O doing the route
(s)...I can't either.
John wrote:
"You Asked for It" is 10b/c X. Three pitches, not many people do
this route - a fall on the last move (10b) of the second pitch
would equal a 140 feet screamer into a big ledge and sure death.
Bryce wrote:
Thank's, that's it now I remember the route name and.
It was late afternoon when I On-Sight Red Pointed the Dike
Route. It was my partners choice to pick the climb. I thought
he was going to choose the one I asked about above.
This is my interpretation of Red Point.
Lead from the ground up and leader leads every pitch without
a fall with full completion of the climb.
John wrote:
You got it - he places all gear as well (unless it's been bolted).
Bryce wrote:
This is my interpretation of On Sight. You have never attempted
or pre-rehearsed the route prior to climbing it. It's probably
not fair to say never seen the route prior to climbing it.
John wrote:
You got that as well.
Cheers, JB
midarockjock
--
Bryce Sawin
**
This email transmission may consist of
privileged attorney client work and or non
communicative privileged information.
If you have received this email in error,
translating to your email address is not
included in the message, immediately
forward to the sender and delete any
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 12, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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"We may, finally, have reached the heart of the bolting problem."
Your right John. We should let the "extreme" top ropers from out of state, and climbers from prior generations sitting in their armchairs tell those folks lacing up and getting ready to drill right now how, where and what to bolt.
The issue, (not "problem"), is geographical. Rock type, and local say determines how it is handled.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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Atc wrote:Your right John. We should let the "extreme" top ropers from out of state, and climbers from prior generations sitting in their armchairs tell those folks lacing up and getting ready to drill right now how, where and what to bolt.
The issue, (not "problem"), is geographical. Rock type, and local say determines how it is handled.
Correct and to the point.
It is also about control...I didn't do it in the Gunks so no one should be doing it anywhere else.
John wrote: Bob you are presenting yourself as a leader in the climbing world.
No John...I am presenting myself as a rock climber who has been ACTIVE in climbing issues for the last 30 years.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 12, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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Tomcat,
It is not the 80's any more. I wasn't climbing back then. But for what you want, to plan to climb route x, y, and z, you will have to go there during the week. Even then it may not happen. It is just too busy. Giving exceptional examples of "bad" behavior does not bolster your "epidemic of top-roping" argument.
But you do point out a problem. It is busy. Consider it a road. There are two ways to get more traffic on a busy road. Build more lanes or raise the speed limit.
Adding bolts could do both.
Increase the average speed
I could have climbed Classic significantly faster if all I needed were a few quick-draws and the bolts were close enough that gear issues and falling weren't part of the lead equation. In a sense that roughly 90 foot climb already has 3 bolts - fixed pins. But the gear opportunities are spread out. There are a couple spots were not only is the gear well below, but the moves are thin. Protect those moves with a bolt, and I climb that almost as fast as a TR. Seconds climb faster as well. When I climbed Classic, I actually had to stop for about 5 minutes to clean a nut that some guide had left behind - his client could not clean. My follower had to clean gear - though my nut in the same place was easy, I can't claim that all of my gear ever cleans as fast as a quick-draw.
More lanes
Some routes share anchor locations. Bolting could not only eliminate this, but even allow for anchors where there are no gear placements. Again, this wall is a good example. Jasmine and Classy share the wall, but are almost never done.
Top-roping is really part of the solution
To the extent that demand has increased, easy TR's can put people on stuff that other-wise would not be acceptable, e.g. climbs that are just plain X other-wise. Even Williams points out climbs that are only recommended as TR routes.
In that category, you have perfect examples of routes that really demand TRs. Sure Boston is 5.4G, except that nobody carries 5 and 6 inch cams on a Gunks rack. So it is really a TR (X) route. Somebody died the day before I backed off that route when I found out the 4 inch cam - most don't have that size either - could not be placed at all in there.
Finally, of course, there is that inescapable and paradoxical truth, that the more accessible something is the more it is accessed. It holds true for roads as well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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The problem with Tar's attempt at breaching the divide is the issue is not at all unlike nutrionists trying to control America's taste for junk food by attempting to halt the construction of McDonalds. The taste has been acquired and enough fast food joints have been built to be the norm rather than the exception when it comes to dining. Folks brought up on that diet wonder what the problem is and what all the squawking is all about - and why would anyone dream of opposing the convenience of a nearby McDonalds.
That 'new normal' that Wes is pushing and Bob appears to be leading is no different. Sport climbing has successfully redefined climbing in a slightly shorter time frame than McDonalds took to redefine dining out. Who knows, maybe Wes is right - look what junk food has done for our country. And when the red and yellow arches outside the crag says 'Two Billion Bolts Sold' who's to argue with such success?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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Wes wrote:f people took into consideration the opinions of others before placing bolts we would have bolts, but no bolting problem.
I think people do take into consideration the opinions of others... just not the few who oppose. The majority should not be overpowered by the vocal minority.
The ratio is at 10 to 1 in favor of areas that I have helped developed and new routes that I have climbed. I get e-mails and personal thanks all the time from complete strangers about my efforts on new routes and what I have done to help create a better climbing community.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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Joe....when it comes to bolting you are a extremist and therefore have little to nothing to give to the conversation but your own straight and narrow view.
Joe...how many big walls have you done, how many sport routes, how many trad-routes and how many boulder problems.
Let's compare and then tell me what f*#king type of climbing (new normal) I am trying to lead.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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I agree Bob, it's no different than my attempt to eat a healthy diet makes me an extremist consumer; but the question of how I ended up an extremist is very much at issue here. Part of the reason I'm an extremist is the sheer numbers of 'climbers' who are only climbers by virtue of wholly bolted routes. The idea that this highly dependent demographic has grown apace by such artificial means and the leveraging of 'climbing' to serve as risk-free entertainment is very much at the heart of the contention in this and other threads.
Again, the reality is that the only rocks being protected from bolting are in private hands or under active management by concerned land managers. I asked you before how many bolts do you suppose will be sunk this weekend up the I-25 corridor between Taos and Denver? It's a pretty straightforward question and it would seem to me with your background you ought to have a handle on it or at least a good guess. How about Red Rock? The idea that the bolting going on is constrained, temperate, and well considered is ludicrious on the face of it.
The extremists have redefined 'normal' for climbing in exactly the way the far right redefined 'normal' for the Republican party (and over the exact same time frame). Moderate Republicans are now extremists in their own party and how I became an 'extremist' is no different than a moderate Eisenhower Republican who woke up to find their party had been hijacked.
Edit: So will you be adding Via Ferratas to that happy mix? Seems like they would be a natural addition to that line up when presented in such a wholistic manner.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Joe...Red Rocks is closed to climbing. I don't keep tabs on other climbers actions or their diets.
Joe wrote:Edit: So will you be adding Via Ferratas to that happy mix? Seems like they would be a natural addition to that line up when presented in such a wholistic manner.
joe are you against handicap access to trails and wilderness areas just because it make it easier for those folks to gain access to other wise not accessible terrain?
A simple yes or no please....
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 06:17pm PT
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OK Guys I give up. You are right. i just need a little information though. How many big walls should I have done in the last five years to qualify me for:
1. Writing my Senators
2. Writing my Congressman
3. Writing the NFS and NPS
4. Joining organizations which I think are helpful
From the start my point has been that we are dealing with the issue of the uses special user groups make of taxpayer funded public lands. I have to deal with this four times a year so I am rather intimately concerned. That is why I selected the above four questions.
I think that about does it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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John wrote:OK Guys I give up. You are right. i just need a little information though. How many big walls should I have done in the last five years to qualify me for:
1. Writing my Senators
2. Writing my Congressman
3. Writing the NFS and NPS
3. Posting to ST
4. Joining organizations which I think are helpful
I think that about does it.
John..don't be a as#@&%e.
Joe tried to label me as a certain type of climber which I'm not!! I retorted by asking him certain questions on his climbing and really how well rounded it is.
Unlike you who makes assumptions based on little or no knowledge of the subject...(sport climbing areas) and accusing me of being responsible for the bolt ban in the Gunks when I haven't climbed there in several years prior years to the bolt ban.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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I'll take that question as a thumbs up on via ferratas...
Well-roundedness has nothing to do with resource exploitation. Clearly we differ on what limits should be placed around permanently altering rock for human entertainment.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 12, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Bob--
Thanks for editing your original post.
The SOP here is usually to let folks know you went back and changed your original by adding an "EDIT" or something similar.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Joe wrote:I'll take that question as a thumbs up on via ferratas...
Well-roundedness has nothing to do with resource exploitation. Clearly we differ on what limits should be placed around permanently altering rock for human entertainment.
Climbs are vertical trails....all types of trails exist for what you call human entertainment in local, state and federal parks. They exist to allow everyone the opportunity for a varied human experience from easy to the most difficult and everything in between. People have a right to recreate on public lands...just because they don't do it the same way as you doesn't make it wrong.
Also...thanks for answering my question with a question and assumption.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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Wes....:)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 12, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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Whatta you guys, having fun here?
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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No Jay, more like; when the fluffing's over, turn out the lights, turn out the lights, turn out the lights....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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Mimi wrote:No Jay, more like; when the fluffing's over, turn out the lights, turn out the lights, turn out the lights....
Straight from the horse mouth.:)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
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Jstan, do you really feel that the climbing community needs a grumpy ex climber writeing The NPS system and complaing that we arn't climbing the way YOU think we should? Often when the powers that be are bothered with this sort of thing climbing access is negativly affected. Perhaps you would rather not have climbers enjoying the great outdoors and would prefer that only fat lazy people in RV's get to experience our parks??
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 12, 2008 - 08:01pm PT
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To heck with this bolting dust up; it's way light...
I'm heading into the firestorm of this fast food diet thing!
Wish me luck... I'll still post up some photos on occasion.
(I know you's kids are gonnah sort this mess out real tidy: so Godspeed).
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
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No guys, you're the ones having the lovefest. Bob places plenty of bolts so the Weakness can climb, Bob is happy believing he's making climbing safe for the masses. Perfect harmony. True love and admiration.
Edit: Tradman, you too, are way off the mark. It's about sensible resource usage. Why is that so hard for some of you clowns to get? I bet you're in full support of global warming policy though. LOL!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 12, 2008 - 08:08pm PT
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This is like a re-running episode of the Twilight Zone where people are trapped in 1987.
WIILBBBUUUURRR!!!!!1111
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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May 12, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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Nice troll Ron.
This is turning into a real lounge act.
To answer your original question its obvious selfishness is the primary motivator.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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"Climbs are vertical trails....all types of trails exist for what you call human entertainment in local, state and federal parks. They exist to allow everyone the opportunity for a varied human experience from easy to the most difficult and everything in between."
I would beg to disagree. And the disagreement centers around 'construction'. Trad climbs are not vertical trails and only a very small percentage are constructed, they are rather 'found'. Sport climbs on the other hand are wholly constructed - they do not exist without construction. Trails, sidewalks, or roads - it makes not difference to me what you label constructed human paths. You're indifference to, and / or denial of, this key difference between the two is at the heart of your rationale - as is you're 'well-rounded' argument which seeks to further gloss over this essential difference between natural and constructed routes.
By your own argument there is virtually no difference between a via ferrata and sport climb. And why not a via ferrata with wrungs on every sport route? 'Just don't use the wrungs and cable if you don't like it' could be the new mantra of such an equal access utopia.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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Mimi wrote:No guys, you're the ones having the lovefest. Bob places plenty of bolts so the Weakness can climb, Bob is happy believing he's making climbing safe for the masses. Perfect harmony. True love and admiration.
Edit: Tradman, you too, are way off the mark. It's about sensible resource usage. Why is that so hard for some of you clowns to get? I bet you're in full support of global warming policy though. LOL!
Yes Mimi and you are known around the climbing world for your boldness and leading ability.
Joe wrote:By your own argument there is virtually no difference between a via ferrata and sport climb. And why not a via ferrata with wrungs on every sport route? 'Just don't use the wrungs and cable if you don't like it' could be the new mantra of such an equal access utopia.
No Joe that is your argument and you are pushing it from the start. Good try through.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Bob
Climbing is nothing but vertical trails for human enjoyment?
Bawhahahaha, ...... you're killing me. (rolls eyes)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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Werner...read it a again...seems you have the same problem as Joe.
Wes...climbing has attained total enlightenment for Werner....
Bawhahahaha, ...... you're killing me. (rolls eyes)
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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I go go cross country.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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You guys clearly watched too much television as children...
"Happy Trails" by Dale Evans Rogers
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin' until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we're together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, 'till we meet again.
Some trails are happy ones,
Others are blue.
It's the way you ride the trail that counts,
Here's a happy one for you.
Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin' until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we're together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, 'till we meet again.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 08:24pm PT
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Ron wrote:This is like a re-running episode of the Twilight Zone where people are trapped in 1987.
Yes Ron you are right and until the other side can somehow get over the "style thing" it will remain that way.
Thanks for the discussion folks...even the clowns (lovely and bold Mimi words) have a right to express their opinions.
Mimi wrote: Not so fast, Bobbo. The way of the clipjockey affects the resource. End of story. You can't attribute the objections to a disagreement about style. Sport bolting crosses over to ethics at the point of impact. It becomes an ethical consideration.
Are you that myopic to think that so called trad areas don't similar issues??? Ms. way of the 5 rp!
Mimi wrote: Style is about making climbing as challenging for yourself as possible. Are you really doing that with all that dangling and drilling about?
Thanks for telling me what climbing is for me and the rest of the climbing population...you are not only extremely bold but extremely wise too You are also welcome to come follow me around the Black Canyon next weekend. I know it not as wild, bold and untamed as JT...but what the hell...even you might like it.
Werner wrote: Bob got mad....
I'm happy as can be...thanks for caring.
Mimi wrote: You're off the mark on two points IMO. 1) Being rude to Mr. Stannard. He's been a champion of thoughtful recreational landuse policy his entire career. I suppose you don't know that. He's a Gunk's pioneer. 2) Bolts are more problematic than natural gear climbing; they both impact an area, but bolts impact moreso.
But since sweet little MImi is a trad dog her sins are no where as bad as those wimps sport wankers.
I'm out of here.
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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May 12, 2008 - 08:27pm PT
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Joe,
There is an I-25 corridor between Taos and Denver? I have been driving the wrong way this whole time.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
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Not so fast, Bobbo. The way of the clipjockey affects the resource. End of story. You can't attribute the objections to a disagreement about style. Sport bolting crosses over to ethics at the point of impact. It becomes an ethical consideration.
Style is about making climbing as challenging for yourself as possible. Are you really doing that with all that dangling and drilling about?
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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Bob got mad....
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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Actually latte's taste pretty good.
Too bad they cost so much .....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2008 - 08:57pm PT
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Mimi. Please explain to me how I am so far off base when I point out that climbers both trad and sport tend to wreck the crap out of a climbing area unless someone steps up to the plate and builds trails, brushes out other trails, negotiates with landowners for parking and access, etc, etc, etc. Then you get a few grumpy anti bolt folks making a bunch of noise over a few bolts and those guys usually do not contribute anything positive to the situation. You really want to help the situation STOP HAVEING BABIES!!
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 09:08pm PT
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Not a problem, tradman. I'm currently childless and plan on staying that way. Carbon footprint and all.
You're off the mark on two points IMO. 1) Being rude to Mr. Stannard. He's been a champion of thoughtful recreational landuse policy his entire career. I suppose you don't know that. He's a Gunk's pioneer. 2) Bolts are more problematic than natural gear climbing; they both impact an area, but bolts impact moreso.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 09:11pm PT
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Tradman don't insult people with your STOP HAVEING BABIES crap.
You wouldn't even exist ......
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Very true, Werner. LOL! I let him slide figuring he was a mere pup making a comment like that.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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Weakwrist, I might've stated this before. Can't wait to meet you at the base of a crag someday.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 09:21pm PT
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Mimi wrote:Bolts are more problematic than natural gear climbing; they both impact an area, but bolts impact moreso.
F*#king hilarious...you might want to talk to the rangers at the Gunks and Eldo to start with.
Mimi wrote:Weakwrist, I might've stated this before. Can't wait to meet you at the base of a crag someday.
Bold and tough... every man dream.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 12, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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Fluffing and whining, fluffing and whining... there is still potential here.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 09:42pm PT
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Bobbie, I knew you couldn't bear to stay away.
No, not a dream. Your worst nightmare.
You know damned well that bolting is more egregious than gear climbing. Shirley, you jest.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
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Certainly do not mean any disrespect to anyone for haveing children and do not mean the no child thing literaly. I do however point out that crouding at the crags and eveywhere else is a result of too many people in the world. I also am well aware of who Jstan is and respect him as a climber but I do NOT respect the Gunks mentality that just because we have all these nice crack protected climbs it gives us the right to ban bolts and you guys with out the cracks are just going to have to live with it. It does piss me off when John tries to shove his gunks management plan down the throat of the rest of the climbing community regardless of what their regional issues and resorces may be..
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Mimi wrote:No, not a dream. Your worst nightmare.
Funny...I been married to a feisty one for 33 years...she is a dream and the love of my life.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 13, 2008 - 12:23am PT
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The impact and access issues generated by the 60-80% of people who wouldn't be 'climbers' were it not for your artificially constructed 'trails' are a high price to pay to bringing this risk-free version of climbing to the masses. That they then require ever more new climbs simply keeps a steady hum of drills going around the country. The fact this 'climbing' demographic is a done deal doesn't make it right, good, or correct - if it did then the fact McDonalds is everywhere would have made their food good for you.
And yes, Melvin - the broad I-25 corridor down to to Taos - but we could make that Sante Fe or Las Vegas if you need it to be more precise. Or even within a 30 mile radius of Taos if that makes it all the more familar. But how many bolts will go in this weekend in either? I would guess a veritable symphony of precussion if it could all be heard at the same time.
Oh, and that was Red Rock, NV - not Red Rocks, CO...
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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May 13, 2008 - 01:12am PT
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Joe,
I know there will be no sound of bolts going in this weekend in Las Vegas despite the mass quantities of granite there; I have put up routes there ground-up and nobody climbs in the area. I understand your point, although lumping NM into the Front Range does not serve your argument as NM experiences way less development than CO.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 13, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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Lets Face it, There is no sport in sport climbing. A rap job is a rap job. Thats my rule ! And that is just what it is,A rule not law. So you rap and I'll lead. And we'll all be happy eating cake.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 13, 2008 - 01:47am PT
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Melvin, however one would describe it - the question is basically how many bolts will be going in this weekend over Bob's 'home range'.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 13, 2008 - 06:33am PT
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Wow...bolting Classic,I really never thought I'd see the day that would be discussed.
Bob has decided his opinion matters more because he put up a slew of bolted routes...wow again.
As far apart as when we started.Trad climbers will eventually have to decide if we are just going to lay down and let the pro bolt crowd steal your sport.
Take any piece of rock and remove the bolts,you have a trad climb.Take any piece of rock and remove the gear,you are ready for the next pitch.
Remove the bolts and there is no longer any need for trail work either.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 06:56am PT
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So Tom, what does that do for the lines on Bombardment, Recompense, The Book, Thin Air, WG, Moby etc.??? Seneca is a annother good example. Verey few bolts, Total trad area and there are climber crawling all over it like ants. They do have very good trail system and bathrooms though.
The Gunks is just too close to NYC so so matter what, you are going to have congestion and and the A hole factor. Many of those first pitch bolted belays were bundles of tat arround trees in the old days. I remember being told to only do the first pitch of Roseland way back when and it was just a bundle of tat arround a dead stump to get down. The second pitch of Roseland is actually pretty good and the crux INMOP The old pin should be replaced though. It was sketch in 85 and even more sketch in 2002
If you removed the bolted belays then bundles of tat would most likly sprout in the same places.. just too many people down there.....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 07:12am PT
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Speaking of Ant's, have you tried to park at Pinkam Notch on a weekend recently? It is amazeing how full it gets with the lots overflowing and cars up and down the side of the road. No bolts up there just a whole crapload of people out enjoying the outdoors... The climbers are here to stay barring a serious plauge ,famin or war and bolts are just a tool to help mannage the trafic flow. They are not the driveing force that created the crowds as much as some would like to believe... Just sit in traffic in the middle of N, Conway on a summer weekend and try to blame all those cars and people on bolts........
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 13, 2008 - 07:28am PT
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Trad.Agree both Roseland and Birdland haver excellent second pitches.Have you been to the Gunks recently?The toproping is unbelievable.And the camping out with posse's.
Someone added a bolt anchor to Bombardment,the usual well intended soul armed with the MRS drill.It lasted about 24 hours...lol.
The bolt anchor on the Book causes OPAR.One pitch and rap.There is no need of it,as you can place your whole rack in the corner.But you will have to lead the second pitch.
I have never once seen a toprope set on Bombardment.The difference is that when kept as lead climbs,although a line may exist,it is all moving upwards.Someone can start up Recompense every thirty minutes,all those routes really.On Thin Air you take some chance the party ahead will epic.
Sorry we disagree Trad and TIG.I think if you start out climbing at the Gunks,by the time you toprope what is left of Ken's crack,if you are not ready to lead,climbing may not be for you.Leading at the Gunks is much easier than most places.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 07:43am PT
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Tom I totally agree with you that there are places where bolts are not needed but there are pleanty of places where the climbing wouldn't even exist without the bolts. blameing the overcrouding on the bolts justs does not cut it INMOP Certainly the gunks would be a mess regardless of the bolts. I simply don't go there anymore. Too many people, too dirty, too city........
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 07:45am PT
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Tom, Park N, Conway 70 miles from NYC and just imagin what a mess it would be....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 09:10am PT
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Joe wrote:nd yes, Melvin - the broad I-25 corridor down to to Taos - but we could make that Sante Fe or Las Vegas if you need it to be more precise. Or even within a 30 mile radius of Taos if that makes it all the more familar. But how many bolts will go in this weekend in either? I would guess a veritable symphony of precussion if it could all be heard at the same time.
There a lot of speculation and very little proof in your post Joe. What was happening along the Front Range was a lot of different people enjoying a lot different climbs in a lot different areas.
Not all of us our limited by some choss pile near a railroad track as our home crag.
Jealous?
Tomcat wrote; Bob has decided his opinion matters more because he put up a slew of bolted routes...wow again.
Not only are you a whiner...you have no idea what you are talking about....I done over 400 to 500 FA of trad routes.
Tomcat wrote:As far apart as when we started.Trad climbers will eventually have to decide if we are just going to lay down and let the pro bolt crowd steal your sport.
They haven't stole anything...your just to lazy to get off your ass and do new routes.
Please underwhelm me with your impressive list of new routes in the Gunks and North Conway,
Can't wait to see it.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:19am PT
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You put in bolts and a sport anchor, and just see what happens next........
(Just kidding....)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:22am PT
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Gotta love those little crags near the railroad tracks, Bob.......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:30am PT
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You think this all started with the Kennedys.....smoking pot in the White House, sleeping with movie stars, and driving drunk off of bridges........the REAL trouble started with those damn Anasazi Native Americas WAY before that.........chipping holds, using ladders as aid.......this crap has been going on for a long time......It aint' the Kennedy's or Bob D'Antonio's fault...........really isn't....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 09:34am PT
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Todd wrote:You put in bolts and a sport anchor, and just see what happens next........
Todd...Built it and they will come...built it and they will come.
Nice shots Todd.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:36am PT
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I'm all for painting the route name at the bottom of climbs too.....not everyone can afford a guidebook, and we don't want anyone getting lost or on the wrong climb and hurt.....It's only a little paint;...if you use the right type, it won't hurt the environment at all, and it will , in the long run, save lives........the pad people with their plant-crushing pads........now THERE is a REAL problem that must be stopped......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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EVERYONE knows that rock is ugly until it has chalk and bolts on it.......get over yourselves, people....(Bob D'Antionio did NOT put that chalk or the bolts on this rock...FYI.....)
(This post needed some photos, didn't it......?)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:43am PT
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This ain't the Gunks.....(Or What happens in New Paltz, stays in New Paltz...)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:47am PT
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It's happening as we speak, people......man your crowbars, and call up your state representative.........Boulder sport park; here we come.......
Or are we too late already....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 10:33am PT
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CSdude...it really is a horrible thing those bolts on Mr. Breeze...we should just shoot Alex for doing something like this to somebody. Look at that...families hanging out, camping, sitting around a campfire bonding and climbing together. WTF is climbing coming too!!!
On any given weekend from spring to late fall you can see this type of bizarre behavior by climbers and families camping, climbing, talking and enjoying themselves in the San Luis Valley and Shelf Rd.
What have I done???
Then we have folks like Mr. Stannard ( who has never even been to said areas) passing judgement on me because I placed bolts, worked on trails, installed bathrooms, campsites, gave slideshows, organized cleanups, collected donated gear to give to volunteers and worked with land managers, Access Fund, IMBA and the American Mountain Foundation to find a common ground for people to enjoy their time in the outdoor.
it is really horrible when I go to the SLV and see non-climbing families picnicking and walking on the trail watching climbers and asking questions and enjoying a beautiful day in a beautiful little canyon in southern Colorado and to see climbers with their mountain bikes going for a ride after a beautiful day of climbing and then going back to well kept camping site and watching a amazing sunset over the Sangre de Christo mountains.
I also can't believe I written 14 hiking, mountain biking and climbing guides to several different areas and giving people the opportunity to explore new trails and climbs and getting them in the outdoors for a welcome break from their lives. Also can't understand why I donated some of my royalties to different outdoor group to help with access issues.
I'm so sorry Mr. Stannard (and the others) for doing so little while you John have done so much in the last 25 years. You keep pushing that pen and sending your $25 memberships fees in while I'll continue to sit around and pick my nose.
Really...there must be something extremely sour in my head for doing such things.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 13, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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Perhaps I was a little over the top, Looking
at the huge smile on that kids face does indeed
soften me up a bit.
BTW-
I have always liked Bob !
Anyone NOT always liked Bob ??
:)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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Glad after 500 posts that people have seriously addressed my question rather than try to support their positions,..
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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I have done plenty to highlight that notion Ron.
You are correct; the majority of what we see on this thread is a lot of direct opposition.
So whatever might be happening out on the crags,
Side-by-side ethics certainly aren't enjoying a lot of accommodation here on the Internet.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
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I posted way back that they (sport and trad climbs) have and can co-exist...I also said that the climbers couldn't.
and then the personal attacks started.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 13, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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Bob,I only have one route in the North Conway area,Groovedogs,10d.I put the bolt in on lead,from a hook.I have two other 10d's in Penna at Stover,which I believe I have read you refer to as a chosspile.I am OK with that.Also put up the popular 10a there,Tales from the Crypt.In addition about another 15 routes,trad,ground up.Most are 65 feet or less,sorry,it's all we had.I've placed four bolts,all on lead,all on hooks.Never rap inspected any routes prior to attempts.Cleared plenty of choss,up to briefcase size,holding same in lap while belayer took cover.Most of these routes are short and intense,no standing around placing gear.On quite a few,we risked decking to abide our standards.Some we added fixed gear to later.
We had bolts,inclination,time and devotion.We operated on a belief that if we could create a route with one bolt,a good route,on lead,that was OK.I had the skills and tools to put up many more,but did not believe that the time had come for anyone to use up the medium that way.I had two 5.11's wired on toprope but did not feel that,since I had toproped them,bolting them was called for.
I thought I read somewhere that you had authored something like 1500 routes in the Boulder area.You stated above 400-500 are trad.That's about the ratio I would have guessed.I can't imagine I'm the only one that thinks what I posted above,that you think that your opinion matters more.
My opinion Bob,is that perhaps you might have left some things undone for those who come later.That said there is a juxtaposition(sp?)that occurs when someone,or group of people,love a particular climbing area and develop it rapidly.Sometimes another such group does not come along for decades.Perhaps that is you in Boulder.
Odd though,and dissapointing the superior attitude you display toward me.I like to think of myself as a climber with valid viewpoints,have new routed some,climb ice,have climbed in Yosemite to 5.11,Josh too,Red Rocks,Adirondacks,Gunks,Acadia,plenty of routes up to 5.11 at Cannon.Have authored a guidebook.Makes me wonder,where you are dissing Mr.Stannard and I,what the criteria are,though I am certainly not in his league.
I took a trip to climb in Great Britain,and was inspired by their approach.Upon return I led another route there at the Edge,what we called Great Wall.We did not have any small cams back then,so the first real gear was pretty well up,maybe forty feet.I just read on rc.that someone has bolted the whole wall.Two other tens that I did there have had bolts added,and they were not even scary.
I'm aware 5.11 is pretty paltry nowadays,it was fun back then though,in EB's and a swami.Nowadays I climb 10d and occasionally get lucky on 11 a or b.
I'll bow out of this discussion now,carry on.
Tom Stryker
P.S. Nick,I am not opposed,as you know,to the use of bolts.I am opposed to bolted anchors that facilitate toproping,rap bolting,grid bolting.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 13, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
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Don't forget that Jstan also was a leader in
protecting Yosemite back in the '70's when they wanted
to paint it for that damn telebision show, whatever the
f#$k it was. . .
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
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Many of my earliest climbing partners now do quite a bit of sport climbing.
We all started out as dyed in the wool trad climbers, so times and people's inclinations definitely change.
Sport climbing is not going anywhere.
There are those of us, Healyje, Mimi, for instance, who staunchly oppose it.
Wes sees that as ludicrous in light of broad spread acceptance.
We definitely see strong opinions and firm stances here; some people hold hard and fast positions and if that is really what they feel, then that is appropriate for them.
Bob takes lots of hits and generally defends himself as a sport climber, but has as much said that he entertains both modes.
Bob:
It seems that you might have interpreted some of my comments and direct questions as an affront to your bolting habits. That is not my intent. I am more interested in opening up perspectives and generating understanding.
It would seem that within your own activities, you in fact embrace both styles side-by-side. So a question for you (not looking for a yes or no answer):
Currently, how much ground up bolting are you doing and what sort of circumstances inform your decision on which mode to choose?
-Roy
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 12:38pm PT
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Tomcat wrote: I thought I read somewhere that you had authored something like 1500 routes in the Boulder area.You stated above 400-500 are trad.That's about the ratio I would have guessed.I can't imagine I'm the only one that thinks what I posted above,that you think that your opinion matters more.
My opinion Bob,is that perhaps you might have left some things undone for those who come later.That said there is a juxtaposition(sp?)that occurs when someone,or group of people,love a particular climbing area and develop it rapidly.Sometimes another such group does not come along for decades.Perhaps that is you in Boulder.
Wrong on a number of points. I have done 1500 FA's from New York to Texas and in between...not just Boulder, my opinions are based on my real world experiences about climbing in the last 35 years....period! I have never stopped you or anyone else from doing new routes. Just get off your ass and stop blaming others for what you neither want to do or can't do. Mr. Stannard started the dissing on me...I have only responded to his mis-information on me for which in a e-mail wanted to blame me for the bolt ban in the Gunks when I wasn't in the area for at least 5-7 years.
I can play hard ball or take the gloves off once the personal attacks start. You and a fews others want it like the old days...that is gone and it almost shameful to me see the old crew attack the new for changing the way climbing has gone. No one is stopping you from climbing in any style you prefer...one of my examples would be Todd Gordon who I have the upmost respect for...married, children and working on almost a thousand new routes and I think all hand drilled and on the lead.
Leading by example and not wanking on the internet. Also not bitter or cynical...just out there doing it.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 13, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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Ok lets say you're standing in front of
a cliff here of the most beautiful rock
you can imagine.
Which one gives you a happy face :)
A
B
or C ??
Edit:
Guess I'm somewhere between A - B
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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Roy wrote:Currently, how much ground up bolting are you doing and what sort of circumstances inform your decision on which mode to choose?
Do you really think my answer will change anything??
I bolted on lead up to 5.12 and maybe harder...that was a personal decision. I bolted on lead routes in Boulder Canyon and the South Platte in the last years and few in the Splatte got chopped buy a chicken sh#t AC.
The pure hate spew by the trad-crowd is really disturbing to me...one fellow when so far as to cut hangers on sport routes in Boulder Canyon and left them in place so someone would clip them, fall and maybe died...they were replaced before that happened.
I am embarrassed by this behavior and really much rather be associated with sport-climbers than the cynical-hateful trad group.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Do I think open dialogue will change anything Bob?
It has a better chance of doing so than straight out argumentation.
Perhaps we have people reading our comments who might find the nuanced responses elicited through inquiry informative to their appreciation of the situation. It isn't all about, or limited to, open battle with our adversaries who step forward and post.
How these styles exist side by side, and how they might contiue to, this can be better understood by those not in the know, if we as experts are perhaps willing to entertain some detail. You and I, through benefit of our direct experience, may have some insight to share here.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Ahhhhhh, I do so love rainy days. I've now had the time to catch up on most of the posts on this thread and I'll try and organize my own opinions on the subject. If I can't go outside and climb I may as well jump into the pool and see if I can swim among the starfish and the sharks.............
One of the interesting things about being an older active climber in Boulder is that there are so many different styles of climbers here. Sport, trad, boulderers, big wall, alpine, ice, alpine rock, rock&ice alpine, high altitude etc AND the indoor recreationists who climb indoors but have not had any outdoor climbing experience. This last group probably impacts the sport more adversly than any other group because the reason they got into rock climbing may be so different from the rest who started outdoors or so it seems to me.
In the Boulder area there are only rules for establishing first ascents in Eldorado State Park and in the Flatirons. In the other outlaying areas such as Boulder Canyon or Table Mountain it's really an "anything goes" atmosphere. No rules no restrictions. I think primarily Boulder Canyon is so free of rules because it's too difficult of an area to manage (many different land agencies) and also because of its accessability. There are just too many climbers going in there and too many little crags. It was easier to control climbing styles when there was a smaller circle of climbers, when we all knew each other and we all pretty much shared the same reasons for climbing.
Back in the day (I'm going back now about 40 years) Most people came into the sport of rock climbing via some previous outdoor activity. Backpacking, camping, scrambling etc. Most of us saw climbing as another way to experience the great outdoors and appreciated climbing as another way to experience being outide. It wasn't just about the movement on rock but also about other less tangible values. I think that has dfinately changed. What I'm seeing now is that many of the people who climb the routes in Boulder Canyon or in some of the other "unrestricted" areas began their climbing careers indoors and hence do not necessary climb for the same aesthetic reasons .........
They seem to be concerned more with difficulty and the grade at which they "climb". Sunlight, fresh air etc are secondary to the climbing. Nothing wrong with that but it's different and sometimes clash with my and other people's reasons for being out there on the crags.
There are more climbers than ever before and we don't all share the same values so conflict of how our resources (the rock) should be used arises. In areas where there are rules or standards governing the establishment of FAs (Eldorado State Park, Boulder Open Space and Mountain Parks), we don't seem to have such severe disagreements within the climbing community. Maybe that's because another govening body is in charge of making those decisions for us. It does seem that as climbers trying to represent ourselves we can be our own worst enemies.
Having so many different styles of climbing in an area that has limited resources but where the numbers of climbers is growing more each year does create an interesting situation. How can we coexist and not use up the rock too soon. How do we leave some unclimbed rock for future generations but still accommodate the numbers of climbers?
In Boulder Canyon it does seem that by and large sport climbs and trad routes do co-exist well together. There for sure have been turf wars in the past but things seem pretty calm and everyone (I think) is getting along fine at the moment.
At Sleeping Beauty Rock there are trad routes next to sport routes and both have remained unchanged since they were established over five years ago. There are trad routes and sport routes next to each other on Blob Rock. There are more examples.........Maybe the best example of co-existence is the establishment of a new crag last year. Tonneque Tower was established with 35 routes last year. Probably about 20% of those routes were intentionally left as trad routes to appease the climbing community.
For me it was the first time watching someone develop an entire cliff in a way that hopefully would satisfy everyone. It didn't work of course but the main develper, Ron came mightly close. More rock could have been left untravelled or unbolted (conceively all of it)of course, but that would have been too elitist.
At this point in time it doesn't work trying to be elite. There are too many ordinary people on the rock and the sport is mainstream. More than ever before the elite of this sport are in the minority and there are too many other people who all climb for different reasons, have different asthetic values and have nothing in common with the party climbing the rock next to them. Their reasons for climbing have nothing in common with me or you and because this sport was based on anarchy they feel they can do what they want.
As I see it sport climbing is a tool that can be used and is useful in raising the standards of traditional climbing. I feel that the true benefits of of what climbing has to offer can best be experienced at the sharp end of a traditionally equipted route but the skills that allow for the development of harder trad routes have been honed through sport climbing. Lynn Hill has always maintained that were it not for her background in competitive sport climbing she would not have been able to free climb the Nose on El Cap. The Huber brothers use sport climbing in reaching higher standards and faster times in ascending big walls free. Sharma has done the same.
Most climbers though don't have such lofty goals. They just wanna have fun and sport climbing gives them that. That's the problem. Rock climbing was never supposed to be "just fun'. It was more than that.............
The question as I see the situation is not can sport climbing co-exist alongside traditional routes because it can and does but rather can we as a climbing community, with many different attitudes, styles, values come together and agree on how best to use our limited resources.
Many divergent style of routes can co-exist but I can't say the same about climbers who have diferent styles and climb for reasons which conlict with others. Maybe we'll come together as a community and work towards a common goal with mutual respect for each other diferences.
Meanwhile I'm going to stand on the sidelines and see what happens to the routes on the south side of Half Dome and wait and see what happens next.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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Roy wrote: Do I think open dialogue will change anything Bob?
It has a better chance of doing so than straight out argumentation.
Which is most if not all of these debates turn out to be and it is usually started by one side when they start the insults and name calling.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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Can you and I proceed differently Bob?
I'm intersested in this thing.
I don't so much have a dog in this fight...sure I have an opinion that a risk averse, litigious society can suffer from a complete separation from certain types of physically oriented risk management skills. But I'm not on a crusade over it.
Maybe you don't like having to answer to anybody.
But how about sharing.
I'm interested to hear what sort of personal criteria you use to guide your choice when bolting a new route; something on the order of a thoughtfull reflection. When do you go ground up? When top down? How do you decide?
I'm not preparing to critique your descriptions with some sort of retort as to whether some top down route you did "should" have been lead and installed from the bottom.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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Thank you for addressing the meat of the question Bldrjac.
I tend to agree.
Side by side is doable if people are willing to make it doable.
Yes, it involves compromise.
Yes, not everyone will be happy.
and,..
Yes, there will be endless debate about what should or could have been done on various lines ad nauseum.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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May 13, 2008 - 05:48pm PT
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"The question as I see the situation is not can sport climbing co-exist alongside traditional routes because it can and does but rather can we as a climbing community, with many different attitudes, styles, values come together and agree on how best to use our limited resources."
Completely agree. The bigger question to ponder is not always how, but where and when is it appropriate to put up any route that involves bolts? Then, when to say when and call it quits - leaving some virgin rock for the next guy or future generations? Where is it appropriate to maintain a little more adventure and leave an area as pristine as possible?
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2008 - 06:51pm PT
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Nate,
Those are real questions for sure and I don't know as I have the answers to them.
Speaking for myself I find that it's almost inappropriate for me to place bolts anymore because I'm not climbing s hard as I used to. My concerns about being safe almost drive my rock climbing more now than my need for adventure and boldness. So, if I put up a new route that needs a bolt I will only do so if it does not detract from the climbs around it. Going up to a virgin cliff and rap-bolting as a first route to me seems wrong. I still like some adventure and uncertainty in my climbing no matter what the grade but I'm not willing to just bolt protect something if I think I can get better and lead without.
I find it interesting that the areas immediate to certain routes which are established in a bold, straight-up, trad style rarely get bolted and are left blank. Routes I have in mind are Bachar-Yerian in Tuolumne, Perilous Journey in the Boulder area, Super Pin and Hairy Pin in the Needles of South Dakota. All these routes were visionary in conception and bold in execution. It's as if the qualities it took to establish these routes are recognized by the majority of climbers and are held as an example of what people are capable of if they should choose to go that route. I don't think it has taken too much discussion to keep these areas as is (but I could be wrong).
I think that bolted routes haven't been established next to these classics because the experience the leader of any of these routes would have would be diminished by the close proximinty to bolts. To my knowledge no one person or committee has said "don't bolt next to these routes" but people haven't anyway. Actually, someone did bolt very close to Perilous Journey but the bolts were pulled and nothing else was said or done.
Sometimes I think that certain cliffs just have to be announced as being "off limits" to rappel-placed bolted climbs and then other cliffs have to be provided as a canvas for grid bolting. In Eldorado Canyon it is has been decided by a committee of local climbers that the establishment of sport climbs in the canyon would detract from the history and general vibe of that climbing area. That in this area the values that trad climbing has to offer be protected. As a consequence I think Boulder Canyon has become the sacrificial calf for sport climbing. But, also as a consequence, the style of "head-pointing" has evolved in Eldorado Canyon and we're seeing some interesting developments in that arena.
There has to be a balance in our sport otherwise random dark forces take over and chip holds, glue on rocks and otherwise desicrate the rock we all use. If there is one cliff that is totally trad I almost think that there has to be one closeby that offers sport climbing. Climbers almost demand the right to express themselves in there own individual way in how they put up routes and to deny that is to create problems for everyone. The challenge is we all aren't of the same mindset anymore ut we use the same resource.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 13, 2008 - 08:49pm PT
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Lots of cake for Bob!! I must say, I have led some really good rap bolted routes. Its the bolt a meter routes that I don't get. Where is the sport in that type of thing. You all have seen it. Why?
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Bob does do a damn good job of putting up routes. There is alot of variety, some spice and good quality rock in all of his routes.
AND he puts up trad as well as sport routes so he's not such a bad guy after all...................
Now if I could only get him onto the ice and mixed to see the stuff he's REALLY made of! LOL!!
JACK
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
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Dog wrote: Lots of cake for Bob!!
Please explain...
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 13, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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you know good stuff, I thought your post was on the money.
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Mimi
climber
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May 13, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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Didn't catch up on all the posts. csdude, that's over the top hilarious!
Bobbsie, don't try and play the martyr. Get a grip on the personal attack crap. You consistently avoid a discussion by weakly attempting to insult.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 13, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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Rap bolters and trad climbers seen walking hand in hand at Hillary Clinton ralley. (I ripped this post off from Tolman) HA,HA,HA Funny sh-t.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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Mimi wrote: Bobbsie, don't try and play the martyr. Get a grip on the personal attack crap. You consistently avoid a discussion by weakly attempting to insult.
Mimi...you are like a pitbull without teeth...a lot of anger and attacking but no damage.
Does your boyfriend drag you up everything or do you just pull on a lot of slings????
Is that better??
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phillygoat
climber
portland,
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May 13, 2008 - 11:41pm PT
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Bob,
You don't know what you're missing!
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2008 - 11:47pm PT
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Steve W,
Wasn't that show called "The Rangers"? or something trite like that? I was in the valley FT back then and got work with that show........oh the memories of the lunch van. Makes me embarassed at how much food I packed away.
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Mimi
climber
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May 13, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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Bobs, I climb just like you used to. LOL! Before you fell into that pool of chemicals, railcar derailment or whatever it was.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
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Mimi...Like I said...toothless pitbull.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 12:00am PT
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I wonder what would happen if a particular unclimbed dome in Tuolumne were declared "off Limits" to bolting or if an unclimbed cliff in somewhere else were declared the same. You could climb but just not bolt.........OR if it were declared off-limits to trad climbing, only sport climbing allowed, you just wouldn't be allowed to run-it-out...
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Mimi
climber
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May 14, 2008 - 12:01am PT
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I feel sorry for you too, Bob, but you're the one that's adopted the geriatric climbing ethics.
Besides, I thought I was more like your wife, Cujo.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 12:06am PT
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Mimi...just by the laws of nature I can piss farther than you.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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Mimi, life is too short for that sort of remark.
Time for you to leave..........
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ghand
Sport climber
Golden,Colorado
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May 14, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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Might have been called Sierra of which The Rangers was one of the episodes in this short lived series. It was in 1974, so it was too early for a confrontation between trads & sports. They probably should have had a battle between the ironmongerers and the clean climbers.
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Mimi
climber
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May 14, 2008 - 12:09am PT
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Your proclivity to piss all over the place is the root of this thread, Bob. Or is that your style? Dogstyle.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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Jack wrote:Mimi, life is too short for that sort of remark.
Time for you to leave..........
Jack...that is how Mimi rolls...no substance just low life insults.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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Bob, the problem for me bridging this gap is the fact that guys like you think all sport climbing and sport climbs are a positive for the sport with no downsides. In fact, I'd say it's your virtual 'Musicman' approach to the promotion of climbing while simultaneously being unwilling or unable to acknowledge any downsides at all to bolting that makes compromise all but impossible for me personally.
And I while no one but you can say, I can't help but wonder if there isn't a bit of self-promotion in this degree of 'sharing' and publishing the wonders of our sport to the masses. Whatever your motivation, I make no apologies whatsoever for taking a stance diametrically opposed to yours. I have no desire whatsoever to see the sport or crags overrun by people who otherwise would never have been there were it not for gyms, bolted lines, and promoters like yourself.
I'd go so far as to say I'd love to see the demographics of the sport collapse, but now that they are permanently propped up the annual tidal flow of gyms and a steady stream of bolted routes that is now unlikely to happen. People finding their own way to the stone was one thing - drilling, commercializing, and promoting it is another thing entirely. Pandora's Box is clearly open in that regard, but yet again, that in no way makes it a good thing - unless you're in some commercial end of the business or make an avocation of the promotion of it.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 14, 2008 - 12:15am PT
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Did someone say dogstyle?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 14, 2008 - 12:18am PT
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hedge - yeah, I got the chopped bolts to prove it!
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 12:23am PT
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Yes, I know but what I was trying to say was that these other routes, Slider Banger, Shipoopi and probably some others I don't know the name of aren't so close to BY as to be distracting, at least they weren't when I was up there.
I think the climbing community in Tuolumne has given the Bachar-Yerian some breathing room out of respect. I think that happens in other arreas as well.
jr
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 12:25am PT
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John,
you should melt those bolts into a belt buckle and wear it around town. Good conversation piece..........lol.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 14, 2008 - 12:27am PT
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This thread is getting to be like a half cocked David Lynch film!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2008 - 12:28am PT
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Wouldn't forging them into a new chisel be more poetic?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 12:29am PT
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Joe wrote;Bob, the problem for me bridging this gap is the fact that guys like you think all sport climbing and sport climbs are a positive for the sport with no downsides. In fact, I'd say it's your virtual 'Musicman' approach to the promotion of climbing while simultaneously being unwilling or unable to acknowledge any downsides at all to bolting that makes compromise all but impossible for me personally.
Joe...trad climbing and sport climbing have issues and if you were not so blinded by your gloom and doom outlook you might open those three quarter close eyes and realize that I had taken a pro-active approach to the situations rather than negative.
Can you understand something so simple or do I have to post again about what have done with land managers in both sport and trad climbing areas.
There are down sides to bolting just like there is downsides to trad climbing and overuse of resources. I rather take pro-active approach rather than whine like six year old who got his toy stolen like you do. You also remind me of the kid who wants to take his bat or ball away when the game is not going his way.
Mommy, mommy...the boys aren't playing like I want them too...
For god sakes sucks it up and be a man.
I just attended a reunion in the Gunks in October and was honored to be the keynote speaker at the main event speaking to over four generations of Gunks climbers on the uniqueness of the Gunks and the friendships that I have from those years.
So really...f*#k off with your trad vs sport sh#t and go out do something other than bitch like Mimi on the internet.
Understand???
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 12:30am PT
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Yep, nothing to see but choss, and you're just a short drive from [url="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=smith+rocks,+or&sll=44.35126,-121.17782&sspn=0.684444,1.639709&ie=UTF8&z=10&iwloc=A" target="new"]real climbing[/url]...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 14, 2008 - 12:33am PT
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Mimi, Bob. That's some serious foreplay!
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 12:34am PT
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Ron,
it would be but carrying around a chisel in one's pocket wears out the trouser material and it falls out........Could make it into a medallion but then , oh the weight on the neck. Could create problems only a chiroprator could fix.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 14, 2008 - 12:38am PT
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Bob; Your taking a lot of sh-t here.You know ground up routes are Just in better style.You have done them. Don't you feel better about them. Than the rap jobs?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 12:42am PT
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dog wrote:Bob; Your taking a lot of sh-t here.You know ground up routes are Just in better style.You have done them. Don't you feel better about them. Than the rap jobs?
It is sh#t and that is how I look at it cause people like Mimi are only capable of spewing sh#t. There is very little to her...no kids, not married, climbing means everything to her, boyfriend is a climber and she spends a lot of time belaying...it all she has left to cling on too.
My best routes are the ones that people climb...sport or trad. Pretty f*#king simple.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 14, 2008 - 12:42am PT
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There is a place... for everything....
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 14, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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bldjac - I would melt them down, but I'm going to use them again on another ascent.
Afterall, they cost $8 each and they aren't made anymore and they are still in good condition. The guy who chopped them wouldn't even give them all back to me- he wanted to keep one for a souvenir (I think).
Guess how they were chopped? (he was going down)
Guess how they were placed? (somebody was going up)...
hmmm.....
Side by side we move along.... jb
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 12:44am PT
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I've reread your inital post, Ron.......it was necessary!
And I rather like the idea that trad climbing is the more noble of all the styles we have in the platelet before us. However, nobility does suggest higher moral character and also by definition nobility displays higher moral character by displaying benevolence,
I think (in climbing terms) that means that in certain situations and circumstances the creation of sport routes is OK provided it doesn't interfer adversely to the overall progress and development of rock climbing in general. There is room for both. Just where and how changes as time marches on.
Jack
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 12:44am PT
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Bob, I have no doubt whatsoever you are a real pillar of climbing society - and given you seem intent on imparting how important that is to you I'm certainly willing to take that at face value. But if you are attempting to leverage that 'prestige' to somehow claim that trad and sport have equal impact - particularly on the demographics, then I'd say that's some pretty futile hurling you've got going on.
And proactive? I suppose so if you consider attempting to manage the crowds you are both generating and promoting to be 'proactive' - I consider it merely self-fulfilling.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 12:45am PT
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hn,
I really like that idea. I don't know why it hadn't occured to me!
Jack
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 12:49am PT
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Joe wrote:And proactive? I suppose so if you consider attempting to manage the crowds you are both generating and promoting to 'proactive' - I consider it merely self-fulfilling.
You been off the mark so far...no different with your above post.
Joe wrote:leverage that 'prestige' to somehow claim that trad and sport have equal impact
You continue...like you always do and take what someone has written and turn it into something you want it to be. I said they had issues...can't you read???
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 14, 2008 - 01:10am PT
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Bob;
I'll buy that. I don't care if anyone climbs my stuff or not.The only one thier important to is me.And thats only when I'm working them, after that who cares. But I'm a selfish ass.That being siad I would be a bit pissed if someone chopped it,or added to it.
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yo
climber
I drink your milkshake!!!
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May 14, 2008 - 01:27am PT
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560!
Suck it!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 14, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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I've pondered these arguments many times.
I still want to get a feeling as to why "Gritstone Ethics" and "Saxony Ethics" are still strong.
Do they have some underlying respect for the first established climbs in their area that makes them adhere to a certain "style" of "ascent" in their particular areas?
Weird question, sorry but I'm still trying to figure this stuff out myself.
Honestly asking, jb
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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Jhedge wrote:In fact, I'd say it's your virtual "Raving Lunatic" approach, together with concepts like applied logic and common sense which are antithetical to your argument, and a fixation on bolts which borders on clinically-diagnosable mania, which discredits whatever point you have unsuccessfully tried to make in your tens of thousands of near-identical posts.
Joe is broken record that keep spinning around with no end in sight,,,he on a daily basis continues to blame sport climbing with every ill related to climbing and sport climbers as something below roaches.
Joe... wonder how your republican party got where is is now...look in the mirror!
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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May 14, 2008 - 02:19am PT
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Hmm...Does this ever seem to anyone else to mirror the two party system?
Sportos & Traddies and no one from either party will ever convince or come to an agreement with the other party on each party's idealized/rationalized version of what goes on?
The way I see it we have two solutions
1. We argue/fight to the death on what is right, ethical, stylish, and fair. No consensus is reached. Bolt wars erupt and are decided by the greatest will (number of times/people willing to chop / rebolt)
2. We divvy up climbing areas (or a climbing area/walls) based on agreed style.
I think we can all agree that some places are more suited for a sport approach (come on traddies who really even wants to waste time developing some overhanging jug-haul without a crack to be a trad route?) and some places are more suited for a trad approach (come on sportos who even wants to waste time bolting some stupid five pitch friction slab?).
I think we need some sort of auction with both parties allotted the same amount of points to bid on particular areas (ie yosemite, smith rock, etc.; "x wall, area" vs. "y wall, area"). In each case, there should be a method for exceptions. Such as, "someone wants to establish a sport climb in YNP, these are the steps...", or "someone wants to establish a trad climb in Smith Rock, this is what must be done to gain approval to continue".
Now, I fully understand, many will say "f*#k this approach". This requires regulation and approval and committees and bureaucracy and a bunch of other bullshit that I've always hoped climbing could avoid. I agree, but I'm not sure there is another solution, unless #1 is employed...which might be OK by me. Because I think I have a pretty strong will. But I also understand I have a limited reach, and I can't have direct influence right now on routes in areas that matter to me (like YNP). Of course, I also assume the trad climbers have a stronger will than sport climbers and someone in other areas that matter to me will look after the routes/rock there. This, like most assumptions, is probably a bad one.
Alternatively, us trad climbers and sport climbers could concede a "Win All Approach" to gain an " Everybody Wins Some Approach", especially since trad climbers have often realized that we have a lot more to lose than we stand to gain by insisting "our style" is the only way.
So, I ask,
Could solution #2 be realistically employed? For example, could an actual party system be developed where climbers could register as sport, trad, or independent? Reps could be elected (or it could be a popular vote system). Laws, agreements, and treaties could be developed by both parties agreeing to uphold the decisions of the governing body. This might include a tradder rebolting a sport route that has been chopped against the "law" or a sporter chopping a sport route that violates an agreement.
I know we don't agree in terms of idealistic principles and we will never fully change the minds of our opposites, but can we pursue a path that has the greatest potential and least damage for both?
or
Is there a third realistic solution?
I know in 500+ posts, we've all established the problems involved, but has anyone proposed a solution (besides Bachar's YNP proposal, which sport climber may not view as fair and trad climbers may view as bitchin')?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 02:21am PT
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Yep, locate 15 million people in an area with little climbing locally and you will end up with an ocean of folks all but overruning the nearest good climbing area trad or sport - not really any different than the Gunks in that respect (only it ends up TRing in the Gunks). But then those numbers are driven by the overall demographics in climbing and those are driven by gyms and sport climbing. As I said, a done deal, but about as positive as the spread of fast food as far as I'm concerned.
Edit: Bob, like I said earlier, sport climbing has done for climbing exactly what the far right did for the republican party - coopt it and define a new 'normal' which really can't be questioned.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 02:49am PT
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If I had to hazard a guess I'd say it sounds like when it comes down to it they don't much care for Riverside or Echo and would rather do the drive to Joshua Tree.
As I said, it's the overall demographics driving the crowding near large metro areas, particularly when there is only one such area in close proximity. That, and LA and NYC being what they are simply concentrate a large number of trad climbers from all over their respective coasts. And all that TRing at the Gunks - that is the sport climbing there. I suspect the really motivated sport climbers from NYC drive to Rumney or other NE sport venues.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 14, 2008 - 04:25am PT
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Lets all face it there is no stopping it. When I started climbing we all policed each other People were ran out of the valley and sent back to France for the sake of ethics.Respect for the rock and each other was the name of the game.And of the sport we all loved.It was and still is are life.Now A bolt a meter on the rap.is the order of the day in some areas.We would never dream of it. My home crag a truly historcial area is eatin up with rap routes.Most are good lines I just think they could of been done in better style.Due the great history of the area.(pitty)
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2008 - 09:40am PT
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I think you have to look at how the proposed new route affects existing routes. Years ago i put up a route with "Big Al" Bartlett in Eldorado State Prk called, Magic Carpet Ride. Now it's 11c and was put up in a trad fashion but the bolts are close together. Some have considered it a sport route while others haven't. But there are other more traditionally protected routes nearby that existed before MCR went up and noone has complained about their experience being ruined by the closeness.
I think having a panel comprised of local climbers (trads, sportos, etc) that decide which routes have enough merit to be established is a system that can work. It does enter into that realm where the freedom to put up a route in whatever style the person wants is curtailed but what choice is there when many so many climbers practising (potentialy) conflicting styles is concerned?
jack
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 09:54am PT
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Jhedge wrote:Except, of course, there's even less bolts and sport climbing in the Gunks than in Josh, so there's no way you can logically conclude that gyms, bolts and sport climbing are causing either of them to be overrun.
That your problem...you are looking for logic in Joe's posts....it is filled with emotions and very little facts.
Like this below;
Joe wrote:If I had to hazard a guess I'd say it sounds like when it comes down to it they don't much care for Riverside or Echo and would rather do the drive to Joshua Tree
So all those lazy sport climbers would drive the three hours to a place with a far less sport route ratio then go less than a hour to crag loaded with bolts and safe climbs??
Joe wrote: As I said, it's the overall demographics driving the crowding near large metro areas, particularly when there is only one such area in close proximity. That, and LA and NYC being what they are simply concentrate a large number of trad climbers from all over their respective coasts. And all that TRing at the Gunks - that is the sport climbing there.
Joe all those people at the Gunks carry racks or pads. You are really confused.
The republican party was taken over by people like you ....extreme fanatics.
Like the person who wrote this:
Joe wrote: Ed - I'm guessing you've never swabbed a dot of bacteria in the center of a clean petri dish of culture medium and seen what happens in the way of restraint...
You blame me for being exactly what you are...a one sided fanatic...your posts border on hateful.
You got issues dude!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 14, 2008 - 10:26am PT
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JB said:
"I still want to get a feeling as to why "Gritstone Ethics" and "Saxony Ethics" are still strong."
"Do they have some underlying respect for the first established climbs in their area that makes them adhere to a certain "style" of "ascent" in their particular areas?"
John,
I would attribute this to certain cultural artifacts.
As far as Gritstone goes, I think there is a long-standing history of Brits being consummate risk takers.
And in Saxony, we're talking Eastern Bloc right? They have had stark controls in place, laws which prohibit anything but the traditional model.
In both cases, perhaps the underlying driver is a certain degree of impoverished physical circumstances which drive these “athletes” to do dangerous things in search of fulfillment.
For example, a lot of these Brits traditionally arose from low-end working-class conditions and they were living off the dole and striving big.
Whatever the reasons, the Brits are a sporting bunch and historically they have played for keeps; very competitive and edgy almost to a point of recklessness.
Was it Bridwell who said: "so much to gain and so little to lose" -I'm sure he was referring to a certain class of the Yosemite climbers, but it fits the Brits quite well.
I don't know about Saxony, but from what I've gathered over the years, aside from stiff regulatory mechanisms, I'd say your statement about underlying respect is a big part of their tradition.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 14, 2008 - 11:17am PT
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The reason that climbing in Britain and Saxony have retained their traditional flavor is that the collective good has taken precedence over individual expression and needs and that people generally accept the tradeoff and are willing to enforce it. This kind of concensus is purposeful and structured. In the case of Dresden climbing, this concensus goes back to the roots.
In Ascent 1974, Steve Roper noted that:
For many climbers progress in the form of bolted routes ad nauseum is not necessarily acceptable or even desirable.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 14, 2008 - 11:19am PT
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B said:
"I still want to get a feeling as to why "Gritstone Ethics" and "Saxony Ethics" are still strong."
"Do they have some underlying respect for the first established climbs in their area that makes them adhere to a certain "style" of "ascent" in their particular areas?"
TB: "John,
I would attribute this to certain cultural artifacts.
As far as Gritstone goes, I think there is a long-standing history of Brits being consummate risk takers.
And in Saxony, we're talking Eastern Bloc right? They have had stark controls in place, laws which prohibit anything but the traditional model.
In both cases, perhaps the underlying driver is a certain degree of impoverished physical circumstances which drive these “athletes” to do dangerous things in search of fulfillment.
For example, a lot of these Brits traditionally arose from low-end working-class conditions and they were living off the dole and striving big."
The war we are in goes back to 1911 and the first debate over pitons and other "artificial aids." Pitons first were used intensively in the Central Alps. A reaction, usually associated with Paul Preuss, denounced the use of such "artificial aids." Preuss basically argued that the only valid forms of ascent were free solos (or un-protected roped climbs). No protection, no rappels, no aid, no belay anchors aside from the rope behind the occasional knob or flake.
Preuss lost that war, and the "moderns" used pitoncraft to open all the hardest routes of the Alps. A few places resisted these developments, but adapted them at least in part. In Saxony, for instance, where the old-guard had been in the anti-modern camp, and where the dominance of the Alpenverein meant that one could police the crags in a top-down fashion, the use of ringbolts was eventually adopted. In the postwar years, the rise of the DDR and the resulting isolation of Saxony, along with the fact that many of the best areas were located in Nature Preserves, allowed (or possibly forced) locals to essentially "freeze" the style of climbing.
Great Britain was different. The Brits looked upon pitoncraft as a Teutonic perversion. They associated pitons with Germans, and Nazis, and working-class riff-raff who knew how to swing a hammer. Between the wars, the Brits fiercely denounced all pitons and bolts. They also sank to the bottom of technical standards. But after the war, pitons started to appear in GB as well. On Grit, the combination of local conservativism, the fact that many of the premiere crags were located in National Park land, and the tiny scale (i.e., most are well under 100'), helped to make Grit a bolt-free zone. On the bigger crags, especially in limestone areas, pitons and later bolts became extremely popular.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 14, 2008 - 11:22am PT
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Piton Ron suggested:
"My feeling is that the trads undermine their own high point by so demonizing those who have a different view"
"So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?"
Boulder Jack wrote:
"And I rather like the idea that trad climbing is the more noble of all the styles we have in the platelet before us. However, nobility does suggest higher moral character and also by definition nobility displays higher moral character by displaying benevolence"
Good going Jack.
This is an incisive and penetrating statement.
You're answering to Ron's tact of productive inquiry and likewise contributing some thoughtful analysis to the conflict.
But you're like an earnest chef presenting a delicate appetizer to a bunch of cafeteria kids embroiled in a food fight!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 14, 2008 - 11:32am PT
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And before I corner myself with inaccurate historical reportage concerning the Brits, (and perhaps we will have one here on the forum on this topic soon), my working-class risk taker position is drawn from the modern expression, from Ed Harris, Whillans, Brown, through Moffat. A lot of these guys whether educated, professional, working-class or not, tended towards hard drinking and bold feats.
Going back further through history, climbing was an expression primarily indulged in by the upperclass adventurers on holiday. But boldness was still a big part of the equation, even though there was a time when some or all of them used guides.
Gritstone Headpoint style is clearly about both preservation and boldness.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 14, 2008 - 11:49am PT
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Tar-- Yes, sort of, but Whillans and Brown were moderns who were the first generation of Brits to master German-Austrian pitoncraft and apply it in both home crags and abroad. Before them, pegs were anathema, and yes, it was partly due to the snobbery of the AC. But poverty wasn't the driver-- the German and Austrian climbers who pioneered pitons and direct-aid climbing were far poorer, on the whole, than the Brits. And yes, pitons and direct-aid could go hand-in-hand with bold climbing (i.e. Heckmair's Eigerwand).
But the very use of pitons (later bolts) was the bright line separating "traditional" and "modern" approaches to climbing. Only poverty or some essentially arbitrary sense of proportion could dictate the number or type of pitons for any particular climb. Comici and the Dimai bors. FA of the Cima Grande was the period case in point.... jillions of pins.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 14, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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Here is the punchline: Saxony and Grit have very, very little to offer us as models for Yosemite. Saxony and Grit emerged under unique historical circumstances that do not even vaguely resemble anything in the States. Climbing clubs have never dominated American climbing as they have in Europe and even GB. We did not have a club organized along a Fuehrer-principle, the way the German-Austrian Alpenverein was, that could drive the Jews and Socialists out of the high country or regulate crag style. Saxony and Grit emerged in opposition to modern pitoncraft.
Yosemite was born modern: Hammered into a climbing area by folks who had adopted the most modern and un-traditional of the European climbing schools. And once you've picked up a hammer and crossed that nice bright line, it becomes essentially impossible to police modes of climbing outside of a tightly regulated environment. And the most successful examples (Saxony, Grit, Gunks) frequently involved the sometimes very un-gentle engagement of larger regulatory agencies like private land managers or park systems.
Instituting an apparently simple "ground-up" only rule will not do it. Yes, some of you want to say that "ground-up" is what distinguishes trad from bad. But we can shatter that dream with two route names: HD Cables and Wings of Steel. So yes, we could say "ground-up" only, but that won't guarantee us good routes, let alone minimal-impact routes. We could bolt-ladder and then retro chop, a la Scirocco, but most of the traddies won't like that either. There is no bright clean line for defining "boldness" or "elegance." If you want it, then you will have to define it in highly precise and fairly arbitrary ways, and then establish some sort of regulatory agency with real power to enforce the criteria.
What Jstan and others were hoping for was a sort of informal, collaborative coalition that could reach something like a basic consensus without that sort of structure. But I don't see any possible way for that to work in Yosemite. I can see it in lots of other places, especially places that didn't emerge as the birthplace of American pitoncraft, and especially places that are comparatively small in scale, where top-roping and soloing could be acceptable LNT approaches to climbing (i.e., the Gunks again). But I'm less optimistic in the case of Yosemite.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 14, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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KLK wrote:
"There is no bright clean line for defining "boldness" or "elegance." If you want it, then you will have to define it in highly precise and fairly arbitrary ways, and then establish some sort of regulatory agency with real power to enforce the criteria."
Yes I agree; it is very difficult to construct and institute objective criteria for these very subjective constructs and activities.
Thanks for your post.
Along with Jack and a few others here, we get some food for thought and engage in a little constructive inquiry.
-Roy
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 12:52pm PT
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Jhedge wrote:Again, it's the sport crags, not Josh, that are in close proximity. And again, if sport climbing and gyms were driving the overall demographic, as you said, the sport crags would be packed and Josh deserted. Instead the reverse is true.
I tried to point that out in my other post on Joe's logic....or lack of of. His post make little to no sense and are fill with speculation and not facts.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 14, 2008 - 12:55pm PT
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DSM IV, Axis I and II diagnosis, 297.1.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 14, 2008 - 01:01pm PT
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We've got two things happening on this thread and two thrusts.
One is a continued clash over styles, their values and impacts.
Another is an open-ended inquiry into coexistence, compromise, and ways to achieve that end.
The first is characterized by strong belief in positions; nothing wrong with that because it's where we start.
The second is more abstract and clearly any solution is daunting, but I believe it is worth some effort.
I haven't been part of the Yosemite scene for many years. By way of making a few inquiries, I am going to enlarge my understanding of the current status of some of this stuff. For instance: I'm going to ask James how interested his young friends are in stance bolting.
I e-mailed a friend about these topics this morning, a longtime resident of the Yosemite area. Rather than involving this person directly, I will for now leave his comments and reportage anonymous, as I did not ask him for his permission to post these words, so here's what he said:
...
“i dont think that there is that is that much bolting activity in the
valley whether it be ground up or rappel. just the stupid rehash of
chopping and replacement.”
...
On this alone, it is my suspicion that proponents of both sides of this argument have a shared interest in solving or in attempting to solve these problems. I submit that is common ground.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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Joe wrote: Degaine, that is what I was talking about, that the large majority of today's climbers are entirely bolt dependent.
So why are places like Eldo, Lumpy Ridge, RMNP, the Gunks and Yosemite packed with climbers almost every weekend?
The world according to Joe...
Joe wrote: Yes, as early as '75 I could see the writing on the wall clear as hell. In places like Eldo and the Gunks you could see about 40-50% of the folks leading were very nervous about it and basically less than competent and confident with gear. Many folks simply stopped leading or quit climbing altogether if they couldn't deal with placing pro.
Again...why are places like Eldo, Lumpy Ridge, RMNP, the Gunks and Yosemite packed with climbers almost every weekend?
Why is the Black Canyon and the north rim campground...one of the notorious trad-areas in the US filled with climbers on any given weekend in the spring and early fall.
Again Joe...no logic to your statement. You made a statement that 85-per-cent of the climbers are gym and risk free...how do account for the ever increasing popularity of these trad-base areas.
You have your head on backwards.
I said this a number of times... which seems to fly right over your head...these are CLIMBING ISSUES...not just sport-climbing issues...they should be a concern of all climbers and all climbers should work together to maintain access and a good working relationship with all land managers and private land owners.
Your finger pointing is childish and really sad coming from someone of your background.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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Jhedge wrote: So if they're not "using artificial aids", how were/are they getting the bolts in? Isn't the guy in Bachar's picture upthread "using artificial aids"?
No..they are natural soy based bolts, hammers and perlon.
Tar wrote: “i dont think that there is that is that much bolting activity in the
valley whether it be ground up or rappel. just the stupid rehash of
chopping and replacement.”
hitting the nail on the head....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
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Not at all, again, just the demographic concentration of trad climbers in both LA and NYC alone easily accounts for the crowds at JT and the Gunks. The level of TRing in the Gunks is the sport climbing and I would suspect in JT as well. Haven't been to Riverside or Echo to say what is going on there. But go to any metro area with both types of venues available such and folks are stacking up the sport areas.
Anyone who thinks that the annual tidal flow of gyms isn't serving as a commercial engine propping up the demographics is delusional. And sport routes are what allow the majority of those folks to identify themselves as 'climbers' anytime they leave the gym. No one has accurate numbers - but why don't you boys take a stab at what percentage of folks who put on a rock climbing harness this year will only clip bolts inside or out. My guess? 80-85% of the total current demographic is wholly sustained by bolted lines. That is a staggering change in the demographics of climbing in the US over a relatively short time frame. And the care and feeding of that majority demographic is driven by drills and bolts. The results of that twenty five years on may be all great and fine with you - it isn't with me.
Now, I've always been willing to concede sport climbing has a place within climbing on certain rock types and lines. However, the problem has always been, and remains, a complete lack of judiciousness, moderation, and thoughtfulness in its application. Instead, the drilling has been, and is, rapacious. In places the not under private ownership or effective land management the drilling is ongoing, unchecked, and unabated. Eldo and the Gunks are perfect examples of exactly what measures are ultimately required to 'manage' the bolting in the face of a lack of restraint on the part of it's advocates.
The demographics are undeniable as are the measures in effect in Eldo and the Gunks; they are not a matter of my imagination and unless sport climbers learn to show a voluntary shred of restraint these issues are never going to be resolved.
Edit: Bob, gyms and sport combine to serve as that growth engine propelling the overall population stats. Just like there is an overall tidal flow through gyms, there is likewise, albeit much smaller, an annual flow from gym / sport to trad driving that side of the demographic. The combination of gyms, bolted routes, and the general inculcation of climbing into pop culture, commerce, and media have driven the overall numbers. The US population has increased by roughly a third since 1970 - climbing's demographics in the same period have soared at a far higher rate driven exactly as I've laid out.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Joe wrote: Not at all, again, just the demographic concentration of trad climbers in both LA and NYC alone easily accounts for the crowds at JT and the Gunks. The level of TRing in the Gunks is the sport climbing and I would suspect in JT as well. Haven't been to Riverside or Echo to say what is going on there. But go to any metro area with both types of venues available such and folks are stacking up the sport areas.
Doesn't make sense...never will. You are a annoying, broken record.
Joe wrote: But go to any metro area with both types of venues available such and folks are stacking up the sport areas.
JT is a metro area, the Gunks is a metro area, Eldo is a metro area, Boulder Canyon is a metro area, RMNP & Lumpy Ridge is a metro area and Tahquitz & Suicide Rocks are metro areas.
WTF is wrong with you???
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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May 14, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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too many words for me... but.... something to ponder about climber populations:
FACT: Most "climbers" climb for shiit. There are not masses at the Quarry in Riverside because the climbing is just too hard for them, bolted or knott. If they go to Josh they can actually get some routes in instead of just dogging the shiit out of the first bolt on some manufactured wall. The difficulty level at those areas is what keeps climbers away. oh... and the less than pristine environment.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
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swimming in circles...
photo...d'antonio collection
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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WTF is wrong with you Bob, read dude. LA and NYC are metro areas with not a ton of options relative to climbing venues, so in the Gunks that's why TRing is the sport climbing (and I'd guess the same out at JT). In the SLC and Denver metro areas, on the otherhand, there are endless options and so sport climbers and trad climbers can go their separate ways. CO, by it's very nature, has a very high demographic of all kinds of climbers compared to other states which accounts for why Eldo and RMNP et al are busy. Las Vegas has Red Rock which more or less well segregates sport and trad, but rap bolting up in some of the canyons is on-going, uncontrolled, and unabated.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Stink,
Because without understanding the demographics, let alone simply acknowledging them, you really can't get a handle on the impact or manage it. I'm not guessing anything besides the sport / trad spit on a percentage basis. Sport climbers really aren't interested in acknowledging the actual demographics of climbing because that would start to paint a picture of the real impacts and - god forbid - the true level of bolting that's going on. There really is no way to simultaneosly be 'proactive' and be in denial about the stats.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 02:11pm PT
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Joe..I will bet you any amount of money (you choose) that more bolting was happening in the late 80's and early 90's than there is at the present?
I want real data and not your quessing.
You in??
Joe wrote:Because without understanding the demographics
By your own admission you don't understand them...you quess!!!!
Get real proven data and then come talk.
You are like a seagull...squawk. sh#t and leave.
Prime example of Joe and seagull effect:
Joe wrote:Delusional? Not at all - no one has the real stats - but I'd guess that 80-85% of the people who put on a harness to rock climb this weekend were climbing bolted routes and that that is the case every day in the US. I'd say just the opposite - you're in denial.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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May 14, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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Your post is confusing.
What is it I was supposed to have done?
Ron O
Hi Ron assuming you climbed The Bachar Yerian and You Asked
For It glad to hear your still with us.
I was looking to do a on-sight Red Point of You Asked For It
the day the Dike Route was chosen for me. This time was a short
weekend trip for us. My partner and I decided upon 1 Red Point
each the same day and 1 moderate longer route the second day.
This was my 1'st technical rock climbing trip in the valley and
the meadows.
1. Central Pillar of Frenzy. I voted for, Gordon Red Pointed
1'st 5 on the 1'st day.
2. Dike Route. Gordon voted for, I onsight Red Pointed on the
1'st day.
3. Regular Route. We swap'd leads and the final 5'th class prior
to the 4'th class ledges was simul no pro. This was chosen over
going back to the valley to do the east buttress of
middle cathedral due to descent times.
We both made it to work Monday morning leaving the previous
Friday evening after work even with the 800 mile round trip.
I believe it was the climbing article with your name that
inspired me for You asked For It. Been many years, perhaps
I have your name confused with another article in 1 of the
climbing magazines.
Hope this answers your question.
as jb says,
cheers
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
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Joe..I will bet you any amount of money (you choose) that more bolting was happening in the late 80's and early 90's than there is at the present?
Bob, how many folks do you know who own a power drill compared to then? There would be another good stat - % of climbers who own a power drill. And all those drills are just sitting around doing nothing suppose? That's certainly not the case in NV or here in OR. Are you claiming all the good lines are bolted so the bolting has now abated? How many bolts have you put in since 2000? How many total bolts would you guess have gone in since 2000? How many do you think are going into rock in 2008?
I want real data and not your quessing.
Get real proven data and then come talk.
Gee, Bob, now there's some clever posturing given any stats about any aspect of climbing are speculative by definition. That, however, doesn't mean we all can't all make some rough guesses about those demographics.
We do know for sure in 2008 some percentage of the U.S. population is going to don harnesses to rock climb, and of that demographic some percentage, inside or out, will only clip bolts in 2008 - my question to you Bob, JHedge or anyone else is what percentage do you think that is? Hey, don't like my guess of 80-85%, out with your own then. Can any of you really say it's a number anywhere below 75% with a straight face...?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 14, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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Tarbuster,
It seems pretty clear that many folks simply want to argue the point and have no interest in coexistance. It also seems there is alot of frustration expressed in this thread that has nothing to do with ground up vs. top down. While these various threads have helped me realize that I personally prefer ground up, and have short changed myself when I applied the top down approach, the real issue that seems to have folks riled up is crowding/congestion. Whether an area is strictly ground up traditional or grid bolted, if every route has either a tr dangling from it, or a line of folks vying at the base, the climbing experience is diminished.
Don't worry, some folks are taking an introspective approach to the issue, though they may not being expressing it in these threads.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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Joe wrote:We do know for sure in 2008 some percentage of the U.S. population is going to don harnesses to rock climb, and of that demographic some percentage, inside or out, will only clip bolts in 2008 - my question to you Bob, JHedge or anyone else is what percentage do you think that is? Hey, don't like my guess of 80-85%, out with your own then. Can any of you really say it's a number anywhere below 75% with a straight face...?
Joe...just because someone clips bolts does not mean that do that all the time.
Case in..Jim Erickson...well known climber from the 60's & 70's...climbs at Shelf Rd in the winter and other areas in the spring, summer and fall.
Do you think that Jim Erickson is a sport climber??
You are extremely confused about the stats...a majority of TRAD-CLIMBERS...clip bolts...maybe 90-per-cent...does that make them sport climber???
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 03:14pm PT
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Bob, that isn't the question - and that simple question is what percentage of the total 2008 climbing demographic will only clip bolts in 2008?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 03:22pm PT
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Joe wrote:Bob, that isn't the question - and that simple question is what percentage of the total 2008 climbing demographic will only clip bolts in 2008?
No...my answer was truth...which you can't digest.
Answer this...what percentage of trad climbers will not do any sport climbing this year.
My guess would be 1 per-cent or less.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 14, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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Bob, that isn't the question - and that simple question is what percentage of the total 2008 climbing demographic will only clip bolts in 2008?
Compared to the folks on Denali, Hood, and Mount Rainier? Or the folks that que up on routes at the Gunks, City of Rocks, Squamish, Red Rocks, etc etc etc to climb trad?
Would be interesting to know that demographic.
I started out climbing prior to the sport boom. But, I do both trad and sport climbing (and try to open both kinds of routes, too). I go to the gym, and, commented last night, rather proudly, that of all the folks croweded into the lead area, that I was the youngest at one point (by maybe 8 to 10 years!). So, if I saw that situation myopically, I'd have to say that "gym climbers" are guys like Tom Kimbrough who I've seen out sports climbing too, but, my bet is most folks wouldn't call him a sport climber.
There persists this "us versus them" type of mentality from certain folks. I think they are in the minority of climbers. Most of us do several types of climbing, whether it be sloggin' up Mount Hood, clipping bolts, or placing gear, or bouldering. Big tent. I guess the bottom line for me is that I find enjoyment in all types of climbing. And, although I do like to occaisionally make fun of boulderers or sports climbers (easy pickin's), I do both from time to time and its always fun to see folks psyched out doin' it.
As far as the topic of the thread is concerned, take Litte Cottonwood here. I know a far number of folks grumbled when All Chalk, No Action, Meat Puppets, Schoolroom Streak, etc went in. But, those lines weren't chopped, and, have become sought after diversions. The two "styles" co-exist fairly peacefully here. Sure, bolts have been chopped. But, by and large, there's a measure of respect given to most of the routes done and redone in whatever style here. Which is either cause or effect due to why the community here seems to get along fairly well, for the most part.
Well, off to Tahquitz to do long easy trad routes. Bet I stand in line, too! Dang them popular trad lines...maybe I can convince them folks bouldering is funner...(best thing that ever happened to climbing from a crowded routes perspective, IMHO).
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 03:52pm PT
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Thank you Brian.
Case in point. Was at Animal World the other day at there had to be 30 to 40 climbers...maybe less than 10 per-cent only clipped bolts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
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No Bob, you didn't answer it. It's a simple question and it is the main driver of the overall demographics (raw, total numbers) and impact of climbing. What is so fearful of that stat? It's of primary concern relative to how rock is used as a resource in technical rock climbing. But clearly that stat, or say the number of new U.S. sport routes being established in 2008, are clearly not numbers you or others are really interested in having reach the light of day even as ballpark estimates. Without them, however, no real conversation around the demographics, resource usage, and impact can really be conducted.
And the bolting bans and strict management plans in place around the country aren't by and large based on overreaction or a misestimation of the impact - they are based on cold hard experience with the negative impact of bolting by those unwilling to take a considered and judicious approach to their use. Educating the climbers that come out of gyms about reasonable use and minimizing their impact is great. Evangelizing climbing to get ever more people out climbing is just plain stupid as far as I'm concerned.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Joe answer this question...what percentage of trad climbers will not do any sport climbing this year.
If the percentage is even 80-90 percent it still means that a large percentage of trad-climbing use sport climbing areas and are a large part of the issues with these said areas.
A very small percentage of the climbing population does new routes on a consistent basis...maybe less than 5 per-cent.
Joe...I give you a answer ...less than 40 per-cent.
Now answer my questions.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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May 14, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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Hey Mal..... give these guys some numbers out of one of the mags Media Kits. Don't they have all sorts or charts and graphs and crap showing how many are doing what and how often? I used to get them before I went postal.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
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No, I'm saying bolting in many of those places was, or like Red Rock NV canyons are, out-of-control and sport climbers weren't using anything close to common sense in the application of bolts or in selecting to bolt. Again, how many new sport routes do you suppose are going in this year in the US? A fair number would be my guess.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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Joe wrote: No, I'm saying bolting in many of those places was, or like Red Rock NV canyons are, out-of-control and not sport climbers weren't using anything close to common sense in the application of bolts or in selecting to bolt. Again, how many new sport routes do you suppose are going in this year in the US? A fair number would be my guess.
Your wrong...who common sense/what is out of control?? Should a fanatic like you or someone like Jim Erickson be the gauge of this.
As to the amount of new routes being done compared to sport or trad...only falls on the shoulders of the trad-crew to get off their asses and be more like Todd Gordon!
In places like the SLV and Shelf Rd the bolting of new routes has come a snail pace...not from lack of available rock.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 14, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
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Bob, at least you have gotten him to agree that the number is fair.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
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"Your wrong...who common sense/what is out of control?"
No Bob, I'm not wrong and that's why places like the Gunks and Eldo have stringent management plans and bolt bans are in place elsewhere.
As far as common sense / out-of-control goes - this really gets to the heart of the issue - you basically embrace and advocate sport climbing to the point where one can only imagine how ergious rap bolting activity would have to be before you would even raised an eyebrow.
The point of the number of new sport lines going in in 2008 wasn't some sort of competition between sport and trad - it's simply a solid inidcator of the on-going cost [in bolted rock] of sustaining sport climbing. This seems to be the part you really don't quite get, or are unwilling to acknowledge, that the sport climbing portion of the demographic by definition demands new lines be bolted and new areas be 'developed' at a fairly consistent pace - and that that is exactly what is happening. In the case of Red Rock NV that is happening back in canyons where it is ill-advised at best.
And if by "40%" you mean that 60% of the folks in 2008 who strap on a harness to do technical rock climbing are going to be placing gear at some point I'd say again, delusional. I'd be astounded to find out more than 20-25% of the demographic placed a piece of gear this year.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 06:14pm PT
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Trad wrote: Bob, at least you have gotten him to agree that the number is fair.
Just wait...he will be back with some other number taking out of his...
So if at least 90 -per cent of trad-climbers sport climb.. they get taken out of the equation with usage/issues just because they call themselves trad climbers. Joe logic...or the World according to Joe!
The people putting up the routes are to blame but the majority of people using the areas are not to blame because they didn't put up the routes but they use the areas more and if they call themselves trad climbers they at least twice remove from any blame or usage issues..
More logic from Joe.
The people who strap on a harness in a gym or a cruise boat are to blame for all the issues in outside areas even through those same people will never climb outside or off the cruise ship.
More logic from Joe.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 06:33pm PT
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Joe wrote: No Bob, I'm not wrong and that's why places like the Gunks and Eldo have stringent management plans and bolt bans are in place elsewhere.
So why is Skytop closed to climbing??
Why have they put fixed anchors in the Gunks?
Why do they have trail and cleanup days in Eldo and various other climbing areas in the US?
Why are fixed anchors being place in Eldo??
answer my question...what percentage of trad-climbers...sport climb too??
Joe wrote: And if by "40%" you mean that 60% of the folks in 2008 who strap on a harness to do technical rock climbing are going to be placing gear at some point I'd say again, delusional. I'd be astounded to find out more than 20-25% of the demographic placed a piece of gear this year.
Joe...you are so far away from getting it!!! It is about usage and sheer number of climbers. Sport, trad, toproper, boulderer, aid climber and peak-bagger...we are all climbers and share the responsibility to maintain our areas and keep access open for all of us.
So lets close sport areas or stop all new bolt activity...what happens to the other areas with this steady increase in climbers?? Eldorado is bursting at the seams now, the Gunks are bursting at the seams...the scenario goes on ....
All through this thread you, Stannard and likes of Mimi were trying to get me blame one sub user group/or myself for what is happening in climbing...I refused and was call names and such for standing my ground on the basis that these are climbing/climbers issues. You, stannard and Mimi also tried to demean my work as a volunteer and my activism for the last 30 years in the climbing community. You also tried to make me out to be the leader of some bolt-foaming-at-mouth-cult that goes around making havoc and putting up bolt ladder every two feet on every piece of rock in America while ignoring the FACT that areas I help developed are nothing of the sort. I will continue to work on climbing issues while the likes of your group continue to blame. let's see who gets more done and let's see who will close more areas.
You are a wedge keeping good from happening because you choose to blame one sub user group for all the ills of the whole. You are the problem and not the solution. I am ashamed of your behavior on this matter.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 14, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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HeallyJ.. here in the N eAST We have Rumny and it is a zoo on weekends but then we have a bunch of trad areas as well and they are all jammed up on the weekends and many of the classics are all jammed up mid week. It really is a climbing thing not a sport climbing thing. I believe that the gyms and climbing schools are definatly responsible for a great number of the new climbers out there but bolts have very little to do with it. Many of our most crowded climbs have no bolts or very few bolts. I would hate to see how badly jammed up it would get if you closed Rumny down. Rather than blaming Rumny for the crouds I thank it for serviceing a huge # of climbers who might otherwise be lined up at the base of Moby Grape, Vertigo, WG, etc, Etc, Etc...
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couchmaster
climber
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May 14, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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Yup, what Kevin said, well spoken ! Bob as well. Thanks for the routes Bob! The reality is that if you chopped all of the bolted routes at Smith, the great easier classic cracks there would then be very, very, very crowded. It looks like me that Joe wants to dictate, demand and enforce what he thinks your style should be strictly from what his opinion of what he thinks that his style is. Frankly I think that kind of an attitude is wrong and sad. If a person doesn't like bolted lines, don't climb them.
Different areas have different traditions, beliefs and ethics based on history, geography and tradition. I see that changing very little, and it generally works pretty good. In fact, only a small step over an imaginary line of an area can lead to a great ruckus: see the South Face of Half Dome thread for instance. There is room for both styles to exist side by side, at different areas, and occasionally at the same area - like Smith, if WE think and act like adults and with some charity and understanding of our brothers.
I think that Bob really nailed a huge issue very succinctly just above: "...we are all climbers and share the responsibility to maintain our areas and keep access open for all of us."
Seem to me that bickering personal opinions and attitudes: can, has and will again led to outright closures for climbers. So although the RV's will still be driving down the roads in these areas, and everyone else will be running around the canyon floors and valleys willy nilly stomping the plants and killing them from their presence while enjoying the new trails, getting new water services, buildings built, new trails, new restrooms, entire areas plowed and graded for them: while our very small user group of climbers are banned outright or restricted due to the exact attitude being brought to this discussion.
Sadly and needlessly. In fact as Ron put it on the very first post: "It is becoming a more crowded world. We are going to have to reach an accommodation or see it all lost.
Exactly!
Regards:
Bill
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 15, 2008 - 01:35am PT
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Bob, there you go - we do actually agree on one thing - it's the sheer size of the total demographic that is the basic problem. But we disagree considerably on why that is, what drives it, what risks it poses, and how it might be managed. When on the order of 75% of the total steady-state demographic starts out in gyms, and only clips bolts, that establishes the 'foundation' the sport is now built upon. It's an undeniable fact. That a certain percentage end up branching entirely or partially into bouldering, trad, aid, or all-of-the-above feeding those sub-demographics is also now part of those continuous stats. But the sheer size in numbers of the total rock climbing demographic these days is overwhelmingly and solidly rooted in and driven by the gyms and sport climbing.
We also agree no aspect of climbing is without impact: all can create havoc with tops, bases, trails, bad actors, and crowding depending on the venue. But when it comes to fixed pro and impact on the rock itself it isn't even a contest - sport cimbing's impact on rock nationwide is substatial, significant, widespread, and undeniable. Fixed protection issues generate no shortage of friction not only within our community and with property owners and land managers, but with other user groups as well. Fixed protection issues are also typically a primary component of climbing management plans and often an arduous one to pin down and manage at that.
If this core, majority sub-demographic and the bolted lines that feed it can't self-manage it's use of fixed pro, then property owners and land managers have, will, can, and should step in and manage it for them. Red Rock NV is a perfect example of land managers trying to come to some workable terms relative to a climbing management plan and a principal issue of contention both among climbers and the BLM is the use of fixed pro. Recent blanket interpretations of the Wilderness Act relative to fixed pro are another perfect example - those harsh interpretations didn't simply materialize out of thin air for no reason. They were a response to excesses the 80's and 90's which created a heighten sense among federal land managers that they had better err on the side of caution - personally I can't blame them given what went on and recent high profile climber hijinxs have done nothing to give federal land managers any doubt they may have erred the wrong way.
At this point I'd say you and others promote climbing at your own peril and ignore the fixed pro excesses and abuse by the new core demographic of the sport at the peril of us all. And your promotional zeal to make climbing all the more 'accessible' to the masses and promote it as a cure-all for what ails society poses significant long-term prospects for more of the draconian regulations in place on the Flatirons, ever more crowding and access problems, and even the possibility of the ADA someday being employed against climbing by other user groups seeking to use the same resources and even routes we use. Clearly only time will tell which one of us has a more accurate perspective, but if the next twenty years are anything like the last twenty - and if fixed pro trends remain unabated - I'd say you are looking at a future of ever more stringent management, more out-right fixed pro bans, and more 'safety' oriented regulation imposed on climbing either as a whole or on a venue-by-venue basis.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 15, 2008 - 02:38am PT
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I'm finding this topic most interesting. First I'd like to say thanks to Bob for the good word;...I appreciate someone watching my back.... I admit; I am addicted to doing new routes....I can't help it;..it's like any other addiction....we all have em'. Bob and I share an addiction;...maybe we should go together to a halfway house and start a 13-step program to help us crack our addiction. Why do people love the Gunks and Joshua Tree so much?.....it's because people have great times there with their friends. It's probably isn't the rock, the length or quality of the climbs....it's just the quality of the experiences....it's top notch. It's personal, spiritual, physical, mental, emotion, ......top notch. I went to a slide show in Orange County that the late Todd Skinner gave;.....I was proud to have Todd announce that I traveled the furthest (on a school night) to see Todd and his pictures and hear his speel.......(Great show from a great man...)....anyways;...he had these totally awesome slides of proud cutting edge climbs on big walls from all over the planet;.....everyone was way in awe and occasionally someone let out a giggle or a wow or a hmmmmmmmm.........only.......(I mean ONLY) when a slide came up of our beloved Joshua Tree did the crowd start all cooing and gurgling like babies JUST BECAUSE they saw a few pictures of their own home crag......it made me really scratch my bald head and wonder why...why ...why do people love the low angle grainy dummy domes of Joshua Tree?........I could only come up with the good times, experieces, and adventures with friends that people have at Joshua Tree. This has nothing to do with sport, trad, bolt counts, stats, crowds, ratings, rock quality, length of climbs, ....it's the human thing. Maybe Joe and Bob and whoever might disagree with this or that.....(what do ya mean...maybe?...).......but I am very sure they agree on one thing;...a most important thing;...the human element. Climbing is fun, rad, and it rules. It's what we do , it's what makes us happy, and it's what we do with our friends that makes us different than those who don't share a chord, bivy, campfire, or drive to the crags. We hold this stuff near and dear to our hearts and small brains........we take our little sport "seriously" too;.....No internet B S, finger pointing, stats, or typed floggings can take away from anyone of us the cool days we have at the crags with our bros and homies. Some people ask me why I sometimes climb shitty new routes.....I tell them yeah;..the climb IS shitty, but I SURE had a great time with my friends doing that shitty new route...THAT is what is important to me and why I climb..... In this post, I have found myself agreeing somewhat with most people's views.......lots of people say lots that makes sense to me.....Bob, Joe, John S., Russ, Roy, Ron, Karl ...........you guys all seem right on with most of what you have to say.......maybe we ARE all around the same campfire, passing the beers and whatever.....all doing sort of the same thing with our climbing, and surely all talking smack......(Think about this;....to do 1500 FA....that's one a week for close to 30 years.......c'mon.....that's bordering on dementia.......give the old guy some slack....and some respect too..........Bob's been to a few BBQ's .....and around the block a few times......us FA addicts gotta stick together too.......we are easy targets but we can take a verbal belly punch or boot to the ass........hasn't slowed me or Bob down a bit....has it?...) Regardless of what I or anyone has to say about ANYTHING climbing, religion or porn.....today is Thursday;...in two days it will be Saturday.....I have these 2 new routes already scouted out;....they look really good....these steep thin cracks to a featured top out of face climbing on jugs.....they look really cool.....it's gonna be great! Cut through the crap and we are all wearing the same outfits.....some of us just have bigger clown noses than others......Ron's original question;...Heck yeah sport and trad can takes slugs off the same wine bottle...........
We may not agree with each other, but we sure know how to have a good time.....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 03:03am PT
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I've been away for a week, and there's sure been lots going on around here. But I did read this thread - lots of good stuff here. (And while writing this, Kevin and Joseph added the above posts.) I want to suggest that we consider some other important perspectives. My main concern is that these issues aren't just internal to the climbing community. Bearing in mind that in comparison to many here I'm a modest climber, with much to be modest about (paraphrasing Oscar Wilde).
Several things may bear thought. One is that more and more we have to consider how others see climbers, the climbing community, and what we do. Most of the places where we climb in Canada and the U.S., at least in the western halves of those countries, are public land. That means the land is managed, usually by a government official. Management is an ongoing balancing act between competing interests. One of the big interests is conservation. Another is public use. Another is limited, and declining, budgets for such management. Lastly, public and governmental influences.
A second thing is that climbers sometimes pose problems, or at least are perceived to pose problems. The environmental ones are top of the list - real, fabricated, or simply perceived. Competition or conflicts with industry or other user groups are also there. And often the perception, or even symbolism, is as important as the actual impact, if any.
It's far too easy for a land manager with limited resources, presented with a fractious community that appears to be or actually is causing impacts, to impose restrictions or worse. They don't necessarily care about stylistic nuances which they may not have the time or interest to comprehend, or that it may only be a few climbers doing whatever is complained of. All too easily, we become seen as climbers = problem. All climbers, regardless of ideology. We're all in this together. And the easiest way to "manage" a problem is to eliminate it. Don't forget that land managers talk to each other, too.
To take an example, some routes in Yosemite were established through pre-'cleaning', including some quite famous ones. The impact of that cleaning, or its perceived impact, probably is of far more concern to land managers than that it may have happened on rappel. (See Niagara Escarpment.) In another example, the existence of bolted routes may be the main concern, in that it means more human traffic in an area = more impact.
A ban on motorized drilling, as in Yosemite, is a symbolic management tool. The bolts don't care how they're placed, but it sends a message about boundaries and impacts. Those who say they "develop" climbs or areas don't seem to have thought through how that sounds to others. "Create" is a much better verb, and IMHO more in accordance with the spirit of climbing, too.
Another concern is the growing number of climbers, not all of whom have a solid grounding in the roots of our game (it's not a sport), and the related growth of commercial mountain/climbing interests. And an aging and less white than formerly population - simple demographics are important.
Another very large issue we forget is how much freedom we've been given, even if inadvertently, to do what we want. And we forget just how fortunate we are to be who we are doing what we do. $5 or $10/gallon gas would have more effect on us than debates about style ever could.
Some say that the story of Cain and Abel is a metaphor for humanity. One aspect of it is to illustrate the never-ending battle between the pastoral/herding peoples (Abel), who wanted the land as it was, and the agricultural peoples (Cain), who took the bit about mastering the earth and everything on it seriously. In the long run, the agriculturalists always win. Always. God fights on the side of the heaviest artillery. Which seems to be Joseph's fear.
Hopefully someone like Mick Ryan will chip in as to the modern situation, but I believe that bolting, let alone rap bolting, is still very limited in England, and especially also in Wales and Scotland. Perhaps at some limestone crags, and quarries, but that's all. They decided long ago, perhaps limited by technology and other things, that what little rock they had, had to be managed carefully. 50 million people in such a small area causes such decisions. For example, the rock in North Wales is volcanic, and admirably suited to "sport" climbing - steep, lots of little edges, sometimes not many cracks. Bolts few and far between. But you'd never live it down if you placed a bolt, let alone a rap bolt, on Clogwyn d'ur Arddu.
Of course, it's easy to observe that those Britons so interested can always visit the Continent for their fix of sport climbing. Whether limitations on bolting have affected British climbing standards (difficulty is far from everything) is another matter.
The east Germans went that way also, for their own reasons, as to some extent did the Scandinavians. There are Norwegian guidebooks that state at the front, in English, French, and German, that the area simply isn't a place for sport climbing, and that those interested in it should seek elsewhere. They have bolted cliffs, but not a lot.
It also seems to have been what happened at the Shawangunks.
So let's have some perspective here. I've been climbing since I was 14, and have seen some changes. Technology and technique has gotten much better, and allowed many things to happen. Perhaps that will continue. But we can never forget other perspectives - we're not always in the driver's seat.
That's why things like the FaceLift are so important. They give us credibility, a seat at the table. More and more, we're going to need one.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2008 - 08:21am PT
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The Ward Smiths, Bob D. Brad Whites, Mark Sprauge, and George Hurleys etc. of the the world are not the ones who get climbing areas shut down. It's guys like Joe or Jstan writeing nasty letters to officials blameing other climbers for not playing fair who can cause a real bureacratic ruckus!... You wonder why I snuck George in there? Well he does put up a fair share of new routs and many are bolt protected and he dosen't seem to mind if the bolts get placed on rappell;)
Here is annother thought. Tim K. contributes absolutely nothing to the climbing community except a bolt that no one will ever clip when he puts up a 5.13X @ Cathedral.
When Mark Sprague , Ward Smith, Etc, put up a new 8,9,10,11,12 etc, they are contributing possitivly to the community. They are putting up routs that people will climb and that helps distribute the climbers so that everyone can have a decent day and not spend the whole weekend waiting in line.
Heck, I only sport climb a half a dozen times a year but I don't see the sport climbs as some evil transgression. I certainly don't see the bolt itself as some evil devil object as Joe seems to?? The bolt is just a tool that can be used well or poorly. Obviously as a community we have many diferent opinions on what well and poorly are....
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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May 15, 2008 - 08:47am PT
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Obama & Gordon in '08
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2008 - 10:25am PT
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Some great posts on this thread
"A ban on motorized drilling, as in Yosemite, is a symbolic management tool. The bolts don't care how they're placed, but it sends a message about boundaries and impacts. "
I tend to think the ban on motorized drilling is more inspired by the fact that the wilderness act prohibits use of any motorized tools and everything above 150 feet or so in Yosemite is considered wilderness.
Could be wrong
Peace
Karl
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couchmaster
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 10:30am PT
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Holy Sh#t Kevin: you just nailed that one!
Kevin said: " healyje,
You make a good case, generally, against sport climbing. About as good as it can be. I know where you're coming from because I started climbing in the late 60's, and I would have been horrified if I could have seen, then, what's going on today.
Climbing was a different game then, maybe it hasn't changed for you, and that's admirable, noble even. I hope you can still find places to avoid the modern climbing game. You gotta accept, though, that your approach to climbing is just as limiting and objectionable to some sport climbers as theirs is to you. It's a wash - we live in a democracy (or did).
Your style is easier on the rock, I suppose - if you don't clean dirt, lichen and plants from the routes you do. My experience has been that often those cracks you need to place those little cam thingies in often have organic matter in the way. Really, bolts are less environmentally destructive, or altering, than cleaning. Maybe they're visibly unnatural, but surely you agree they have no real detrimental effect on "the environment" other than that.
Which brings me to the point I wanted to make.
From my experience, "land managers" and law enforcement officers, as a group, just don't like climbers, as a group. They think climbing is dangerous, that climbers are crazy, climbers are dirtbags, climbers smoke pot, drink alcohol, camp illegally, and disrespect authority. Climbing and climbers are all these things and so much more, but this is America - land of the free, home of the brave, they know that.
So they try to use bolting, or bolting bans, as an excuse to control, limit, or eliminate climbers from the areas they manage. That's one of the only ways to stop climbers from climbing. That and closures, often based on bogus "science", to protect wildlife. I really haven't seen the blatant, high profile grid bolting you fear would justify such action, anywhere. If it exists, the routes would be good candidates for removal.
Climbers aren't stupid, some might be, but as a group, they seem to make good decisions. Land managers should be learning this by now (some seem to be), and adopting bolting regulations nationwide - where bolts genuinely degrade the PUBLIC'S wilderness experience. Nothing wrong with that, as long as climbers are included in the discussion.
At least 99% of bolts are never seen by anyone who's bothered by them. All the fuss within the climbing community just draws attention to the issue, especially if the public, or the Man in particular, is listening in.
Climbers complaining to land managers about bolting is counterproductive, at best.
Bolts and fixed anchors should be discussed with land managers in terms of the safety they provide for climbers. Those guys are into safety. Big Time. If you think sportclimbers are into safety...
Perfectly spoken! I would only add, that in my discussion with "land mangers", it isn't so much that climbers are dirtbags or lowlifes, but that climbers tend to take up more of their time, effort and resources for the amount of people in that group. In addition they know us as very quarrelsome and almost excessively zealously vocal. A few exceptions do exist of course.
I personally would like to see less bolts used. What I do see is that most areas "self-manage" quite well. That is, where-in even at an area with no cracks where bolting for protection is mandatory and is the norm, the guy who starts excessively grid bolting, bolting too close or squeezing in routes gets slammed by his buddies. Certainly Growing up in Yos is an example of this "self-management" at work at an area based on a strong historical style of ground up and hand-bolting. Had that not happened on the internet, Sean and Doug would have still heard much of that very same talk face to face from Coz, Bachar etc etc....which would have been a better thing as well, as the spoken word usually translates better than the written. However, the rules in Yos are dramatically different than at Smith Rocks State Park, yet both areas are a joy to climb at- as everyone here knows, and both areas see this "self-management". Even the recently cleaned off little chosspile near here has seen that kind of peer pressure as various folks showed up to bolt faces and/or clean cracks.
Thats what I would like to continue to see.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2008 - 11:22am PT
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Law enforcement usually only gets involved when we make asses out of ouselfs. Dumping stove fuel on the ground and tourching it, burning pallets, makeing noise, smokeing dope and boozing where the tourists and their kids can see/smell hear it. Breaking rules and then posting videos of it, fixing ropes for too long and fixing draws, camping illeagaly, crapping in the wrong places, eroding the crap out of approaches, dogs off the leash, etc. and ocasionaly crying to them about someone chopping our bolts or placeing them in a way that we don't agree with..........
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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kevin wrote;Your perspective would be more well rounded - even if it only confirmed your present stance.
There lis one of roadblocks facing Joe...his lack of perspectiive and his limited background. He is so stuck in his own Dogma It keep him from seeing what really exist.
To this point he still hasn't answer my question on how many trad-climbers also sport climb...he know the answer and it breaks down his case and his madman ramblings about sport climbers and gym climbers.
This is a climbers issue...period. He refuses to look at the truth and reality of the situation that most sport areas are being managed and actually quite well. Sport climbers are more prone to work with land managers and do what it take to keep access open...one only has to look at the link I provided to see that.
The real issue with Joe come down to style...funny coming from someone who might have been of one of the first sport climbers in the US with his top-roping style in the mid-70's. He just really dislikes the new breed and what they do.
The San Luis Valley and Shelf Rd are well managed areas that continue to draw climbers from the around the US and world. That will continue (even with more new routes) because the climbers were pro-active and actually did something other than beating a dead horse like Joe.
Todd....we are a little twisted...no?? Keep up the good work and take care of that beautiful family of your.
Couchmaster wrote:I personally would like to see less bolts used. What I do see is that most areas "self-manage" quite well.
This is the difference between a well rounded climber and Joe...opinions based on reality.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 11:59am PT
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Joe wrote: When on the order of 75% of the total steady-state demographic starts out in gyms, and only clips bolts, that establishes the 'foundation' the sport is now built upon.
Do your arbitrary numbers continue to change based on how many beers you have drank or how much weed you have smoked??
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jstan
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 12:01pm PT
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Have been busy so I have missed all this. Short of time so will TRY to get to the point.
1. I repeat another’s post from above.
….”those who think their opinion matters.”
The ruin of us all lies ahead on that road. It is like the Revolutionary War never happened. And this sort of thing is creeping in again and again. I have to have “climbing credentials” before my ideas need to be considered!
People all over this planet are fighting against this kind of thinking. We need to fight against it here as well. We simply must not accept it.
2. Oh yes I know the Gunks is superb for climbing. In my “first bolt” post with 7(?) points back up there somewhere I said we are trying to get to a world where there are indeed bolts. We will get there when people pretty generally feel they have been heard and we have an acceptable compromise.
I commented on “the first bolt” because that first bolt committed us to this excruciating discussion on ST and committed us to the discussion we have been having for the last 30 years. I do hope it was a good route!
Above someone pointed out we are on a path to ever increasing population density. This is the kind of longer term thinking we very much need. No matter how many rock gyms or other avenues exist there will never be that many climbers and very powerful forces will ever be trying to divert public lands for their purposes. If we as climbers have a record in the use of public lands that can be attacked we will never be able to ally ourselves effectively with others and will never be able to fight against those powerful forces. If we want public lands to be protected we need to be proud of the uses we ourselves have made of those lands. Recent municipal actions and climbing area closures suggest we need to examine ourselves.
Gotta go.
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WBraun
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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Nice post Kevin.
Bob you don't always have to attack people with words like: Joe "Do your arbitrary numbers continue to change based on how many beers you have drank or how much weed you have smoked??"
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 12:28pm PT
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Werner....it was a lighthearted joke. Relax. Funny that you didn't come my defense when I was being being called names along with my wife.
You got a lot of balls.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 15, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
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Jstan, your misinterpreting what I wrote. Its probably my fault as I kept it so short.
You said: "No Bob. If people took into consideration the opinions of others before placing bolts we would have bolts, but no bolting problem."
So I asked: "Who would we ask? Those who think their opinion matters? They are usually the ones who are not climbing."
Some friends and I are putting up new routes around Donner each year. Theres not a Norcal advice line for bolting around Tahoe. Who should I ask: you and Healy? Hahaha. You both think your opinion matters. But it doesn't. You don't live or climb here. Its got nothing to do with "climbing credentials", but is a local issue.
I always enjoy your posts. But you writing land agencies and bureaucrats to whine about bolts is a far bigger problem then me and some friends drilling w/o seeking every as#@&%es opinion on whether they agree with our decision to drill.
But what do we know. the friends I climb with have only been climbing for 20+ years, fa's of trad and sport lines in Utah, Az, and CA. You f*#kers from out of state who climbed in the 70's obviously know better than us how we should all be climbing. Got a phone # so we can call you from the crags to get your unwanted and uninformed opinions about our local crags and routes?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2008 - 01:00pm PT
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Careful Atch, you're gonna have some takers!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 15, 2008 - 01:07pm PT
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haha, yea I know. I should stick to the photo threads...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2008 - 01:12pm PT
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Jstan, sorry if I jumped down your throat a bit but It is not the first time a Gunkie has tried to tell me how climbing should be. I support the bolt ban at the Gunks. There is pleanty of good climbing there and you guys don't need bolts. Perfect. Now if you could do something about the car breakins, stolen packs, dog sh#t, trash, overflowing porta johns and crappy,noisy disgusting camping that would be nice.
Now if you had baned bolts at my local crag we would be without 50% of our limited supply of routs. It just is not fair to impose your rules on the rest of us.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
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Tradman wrote: There is pleanty of good climbing there and you guys don't need bolts. Perfect. Now if you could do something about the car breakins, stolen packs, dog sh#t, trash, overflowing porta johns and crappy,noisy disgusting camping that would be nice.
By Joe's reasoning it's sport climbers fault...even through it a trad-crag.
Edited
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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Sorry, it's no one's and everyone's fault that there may sometimes be a mess at the Shawangunks. The cliffs are within weekend access of tens of millions of humans. There are probably thousands there every weekend. It's a suburban park, used by many more than climbers (of whatever sub-species), and there's no getting around it.
Population pressure almost always leads to more management. Sadly, all humans tend to make messes.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 15, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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Atch-- If JStan is from "out of state," so is almost every other "Californian" posting on this site. He's been here longer than most of us.
And yes, "locals" are going to have to be the most active in dealing with (or suffering from) access issues wherever they may arise. Locals will be the ones actually placing bolts or pins or cleaning or doing most of the trail-building.
With National Parks and Forests, we reach a locale where the circle of invested "locals" is potentially much, much greater, and where land manager decisions have ramifications in a national context. And finally, whether we like it or not, we do have something like a national or even international membership. If you want to have anything like a democratic approach to climbing access, you will have to deal with all of those levels, from the most local and invested to the most abstract.
You don't have to agree with John, but he's one of the most important North American climbers of the last century, he's worked his ass off for the community and continues to, even though he could spend his time climbing and hiking and playing bagpipes. We don't need more hero worship. I don't like the abject groveling that follows each online appearance by Gill or JB, and the fact that Stannard was so much more important to climbing history than almost anyone else on this forum ever will be doesn't mean that you should all be worshipping his RDs, but he has earned some respect.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 01:44pm PT
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Anders...that has been my point from the start...it is a climbers issue and then it even goes beyond that.
Joe continues to try to make this a bolt/sport climber/gym climber issue and put fault squarely on their shoulders.
We are all at the core of it and need to band together to keep access and cliffs open to all climbing.
Jstan continues to use Facelift a example of good and what climbers can accomplished with a common goal...I agree...what he doesn't realize is that this type of behavior has been going on in areas across the US for the past 20-30 years on a daily basis. Grass roots activism is alive and well and and will continue to be that way as most climbers realized that that is proper path to take to take to insure success and not failure.
klk...though I respect John's efforts in the past, he by his own admission has been out of the loop for the past 25 years.
The Gunks was private climbing area managed by a trust. Public lands are much different as is the climbing population from 30 years ago. Bolts are not the issue as much as natural gear is the issue in Eldorado, the Gunks or Yosemite...it a people issue and how we deal we with other climbers, other users, land managers and our resources.
As to hero worship...you might want to read your post again.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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Annother success story to be looked at is the Rumny Climbers Association. They experienced their own growing pains not the least of which was a spate of bolt chopping and an outright closure. The RCA worked with the forest service to address the issues and restore climbing privleges. Now Rumny is an official climbing park with decent bathrooms, trails and parking. Rumny is not perfect but it is pretty darn good considering how may users get to share the resorce. Some folks hate the fee system but personaly I don't mind the $20.00 a year if the money goes back into the park system and not the general fund?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 15, 2008 - 02:22pm PT
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Bob--
My judgment of Stannard's importance for climbing history is hardly unusual. His position rests partly on his technical contributions in what was then one of the most competitive arenas in North America, but also on his role in the Clean Climbing Revolution. For me, as a professional historian with a side interest in the internal history of climbing, what makes a particular moment or event or individual historically significant has little to do with who climbed what number when and more to do with moments in which changes in climbing overlap with other, bigger, and more conventionally "historical" moments. The example here is the convergence of technical rock climbing and the environmental movement in the late 1960s and 1970s. Stannard was one of the most visible of the many folks who were important at that crossroads.
And for both political and professional reasons, I am deeply suspicious of cults of personality. I've been friends with John for a long time now, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says. Nor do I have to agree with everything Tom Higgins says on here, but his lifetime investments in our stupid little sport, too, mean that I do read what he says fairly carefully even though I've never met him.
Maybe John's experience with clean climbing and land management issues in upstate New York don't translate well to Yosemite in the 21st century. Maybe he's way too optimistic about the possibilities of the Facelift. Maybe he's too generous in his insistence that we should try to create a community in which we have at least polite respect for the opinions even of the driveling bumblies and random anonymous avatars who people this god-forsaken corner of the tubes. And I'm sure that you and he have history that drives your exchanges in ways that aren't visible to the rest of us on the forum. But yes, I do weigh the opinions and judgments on this site differently, measuring them by my opinion of the speaker, by their investment, and by their ability to say something that has actual content even when I don't agree with it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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klk...John and I have very little history other than I admired what he climbed in the Gunks and repeated a number of his routes. We had several mutual friends in the Gunks in the 70's.
We took separate paths after that.
The clean climbing style took hold in the early 70's and was embraced by several leading climbers at the time...Jim Erickson, Roger Briggs, Pat Ament in Boulder, Jimmy Dunn and Earl Wiggins (and others) in Colorado Springs, Mike Roybal in NM (one of my early mentors), Doug Robinson, Robbins, Chouinard and many othesr in Yosemite, Steve Wunsch and John Bragg as cross country climbers, Henry Barber as a world traveler and other climbers across the nation who welcomed and embraced that style. It was a collective decision by many and not just the few.
Funny but I always considered the Gunks one of first first sport climbing areas as many of the older aids routes were freed with the aid of fixed protection.
Maybe if John traveled and saw the grass roots projects going on in the last 20-30 years at various climbing areas around the US he would realized that things are happening just the way he wants them too here on Supertopo.
Edit: Pointing fingers will get us nowhere...fast. What will get somewhere as it has been proven in many climbing areas across the country is getting off our asses and be proactive!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 15, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
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Bob--
Yes, the clean climbing movement was a cultural phenomenon. I am delighted to see that you don't share the standard sense of history as the actions of a handful of Great Men. Great Man history remains the default narrative for the general public, even though it's been dead in my guild since the 19th century.
And the edit key-- I have trouble keeping up with your posts because you edit them as I'm typing. When you edit a post, can you simply add a note to the text (i.e., "EDIT"). I'm asking this not because I think it's cheating or a typographical analogue to rap-bolting, but simply because folks who read this thread hours later, after work or climbing, say, are more likely to get lost without understanding that the post was later revised.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
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"typographical analog to rap-bolting"
Good one!
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Broken
climber
Texas
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May 15, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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Difficult, this whole civilization thing.
On the one hand, I agree with Ed Abbey and his railing against the development of wild places.
Upthread somewhere, BobD said "joe are you against handicap access to trails and wilderness areas just because it make it easier for those folks to gain access to other wise not accessible terrain?
A simple yes or no please...."
Ed Abbey criticized roads that lead to the edge of the Grand Canyon and suggested that all roads stop one mile away and people be forced to walk that last mile. And he acknowledged that some old people wouldn't be able to make it. To this, he said (paraphrase) "they had their chance when they were young."
Seems heartless, eh?
And yet... part of this whole debate (land use, trad v sport, etc) involves this: Everything is not/should not be/cannot be for everyone.
And so my answer to BobD's question is both yes and no. There should be some handicap access, but that is not a priority. Wild lands are what they are and we are what we are. We should strive to minimize altering them to suit our own limitations.
And I speak as someone who had a bad accident a few years ago that limits where I can go on foot. There are plenty of places I would have gone if I'd not gotten hurt that I cannot go to now. That is ok. Everything is not for everyone.
Increased development equals increased traffic. Admittedly, different areas require different levels of management due to their position near population centers or the "drawing power" of certain "attractions".
I had this debate a few weeks ago with my sister, who works for the National Parks Conservation Association. We argued about conservation vs. public "enjoyment". I found myself closer to Abbey's position than not. But I wondered how realistic it was. I wondered if my position would limit the number of people who ventured into wild land too severely. Because if you shrink the base of users enough, then your advocacy is too weak to get anything done. You cannot preserve something if too few want it preserved.
So you compromise.
BUT - I wonder... if we strive to preserve, perhaps fewer people do utilize a given resource. But perhaps those are more passionate about it than the increased number who would use it if it were more developed. And so maybe the advocacy of those comparatively fewer voices can be just as powerful? For it is a very different experience to walk through a forest than to drive through a forest. Must we always cater to those who wish to drive?
I truly don't know.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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Broken wrote: And so my answer to BobD's question is both yes and no. There should be some handicap access, but that is not a priority. Wild lands are what they are and we are what we are. We should strive to minimize altering them to suit our own limitations.
Good post.
I am not asking for every square yard of wilderness areas to access by everyone but that different people have a right to see and feel wild areas...handicapped or not.
Coz wrote: All you guys calling each other names, are missing the point. It's not how you climb it is how you respect the land. Sorry, but if we do not manage ourselves, the park service and land managers will.
Wow..funny coming from someone who called Sean and Doug rapist and other choice words.! You might want to lead by example.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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One unique thing about the FaceLift, compared to other climbers' voluntarism. 90% or more of the volunteer days at the event are by non-climbers, and probably 99% (or 99.9%, or 99.99%) of the messes that are cleaned up are from non-climbers.
Yes, in the general sense, Yosemite is still our backyard. But the FaceLift is one of the relatively few climber-inspired events that primarily benefit non-climbers.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 03:54pm PT
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Coz wrote: Find the line where I called them rapist. I said I thought what they did was rape. Still do. Their actions Bob not who they are as humans, big difference.
I guess we are all human Bob, and you are perfect?
Well if they raped something and that was their actions then they and are rapist...wouldn't you agree?
No I'm perfect and would be the first to admit even through my wife beats me to the punch sometimes.
Later, Bob
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2008 - 04:06pm PT
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Pay no attention to the weak wrist behind the bridge abutment.
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scuffy b
climber
watching the flytrap
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May 15, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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Coz refers to GU as a power-drilled, rap route.
I assume this is a slip. I had not heard that
power drills were involved.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 04:21pm PT
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Coz...you are a little behind on the name calling...others on this thread try that earlier with me and I responded. So if you can't take the heat...get out of the kitchen.
I can take heat.
It like water off a duck back.
GU will have a little more impact for sure to the base of HD...but one would tend to believe at the grade of 13a trad...it would be the few and far between that make the effort...so there goes your theory on that one. The upper pitches are different animal and can be access by the masses by the cables routes...so the socially impaired who take that route will have little to no impact and a lot fun.
Coz wrote: Ya, just a slip, I am sure they drilled all those fat bolts in a couple days by hand, your right my bad.
There you go Coz...making bullshit statements....you have been told by FA party what happened (the drilling took most of the summer) and you continue to try undermine Sean's effort.
Who the weird Dude!!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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I'd just like to note that bob got post #666 on this thread.
Two years ago, 666 posts on a thread was a record. How times have changed. :-)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 15, 2008 - 04:27pm PT
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Coz, you deserver a lot of respect for your climbs. But here, you're crossing the line of being respectful.
While you might not be able to imagine drilling those bolts by hand, others do have respect for the Wilderness Act. Believe it or not, no power drills were used on Growing Up. I know, hard to believe for a rap-bolting, power-drill user such as yourself.
Also, saying that rap bolting HD is rape is, by association, calling the HD rap-bolters rapists. You can try to wordsmith your way out of it, or somehow try to justify your statement, but plan and simple, rape does not occur without a rapist.
Now back to your regular programming...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2008 - 04:28pm PT
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Coz wrote
"Ya, just a slip, I am sure they drilled all those fat bolts in a couple days by hand, your right my bad."
Sean directly addressed the power drilling accusation in the big thread awhile back. He said they worked on the route 4 months. 20 bolts a day. I wasn't there but just making sure you saw the post, coz, after all, there was a lot to read there
peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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Since I'm the devil (funny Anders) I call a spade a spade. Coz...why don't you have balls and just called Sean a liar, like cowboy up dude!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
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road to hell, indeed
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 15, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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Huh,
weren't we originally discussing the nobility of trad climbing and the selfishness of sport climbing or was it the other way around?
I just can't keep up ..... On the Road To Hell!!!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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coz: "I should have never talked about Half Dome, the horse is dead and it appears I have lost"
Quite the opposite, I'd say. You stimulated a valuable and overdue discussion of some things that are critical to our community. Growing Up was established in summer 2007, and reported in R&I late last year. It was time for that debate.
IMHO the discussions did establish that (at the very least) anyone thinking about rap-bolting a new route in Yosemite should think very long and hard before doing so, look at all the aspects of what's proposed, and perhaps even discuss it within our community - beforehand.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
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Coz wrote: I can take the heat, so I am still here Bob, I was just trying to talk about the fact that, preserving climbing freedoms was more important than what style of bolting one uses.
I was thinking, I was backing you up buddy, I thought you where making some good points.
I agree with you 100 per-cent. So let's leave style out of it and bang our collective heads together and see what we can come up with.
There are some very smart people on the thread who have done some amazing climbing...now it's time to see what we can do for climbing as a group.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2008 - 05:31pm PT
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Simple, recgonize the fact that we are all climbers with a common goal. The freedom to climb within reason most of the rocks and mountains in this great country. OOps! that won't be so simple will it??????
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Broken
climber
Texas
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May 15, 2008 - 06:46pm PT
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Bob D wrote:
"Good post.
I am not asking for every square yard of wilderness areas to access by everyone but that different people have a right to see and feel wild areas...handicapped or not."
Of course. No one wants every yard paved for handicap access, and on one wants to totally eliminate handicap access.
My issue with your statement was how it was used as an unassailable supporting point for development that Joe could not refute. At least, the tone of it implied - "you can't possibly disagree with this without being the 'bad guy.'"
And so I was simply showing that one could, in fact, disagree with it.
Whether that makes me a bad guy or not is not for me to say.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 15, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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I should have never talked about Half Dome, the horse is dead and it appears I have lost, oh well......
Coz, certainly the route exists, so you may feel the horse is dead and that you have "lost." But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have pulled the route out for scrutiny.
I do see the point you're making about preserving the flavor of SFoHD, and it's valid as any. I also think you are right in defending your views as strongly as you do. But...you were basically calling Sean a liar about power drilling, and the rape thing has a pretty touchy side to it. I couldn't let those statements go without comment.
So please, do carry on. Just be aware that words can take on meanings that you didn't originally intend them to take.
Cheers...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
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Coz wrote: I should have never talked about Half Dome, the horse is dead and it appears I have lost, oh well......
Yes you should and I'm glad you did...how else is a dysfunctional family like this one solves it's problems??
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 15, 2008 - 08:52pm PT
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Good one Wes!
hahahahaha.
(you know I, um, WE, luv yah Coz)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 09:02pm PT
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Roy..I was wondering how long would take for someone to catch the humor in Wes's post.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 15, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Allright now, let's get back to bicker, before this humor gets any thicker...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 15, 2008 - 09:28pm PT
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I've grown weary of this thread as I don't see a whole lot of convergence, just people exhausted arguing their point...
As for the offense that coz drew for characterizing what was done as "rape," I had posted upthread an excerpt from Robin Campbell's essay Climbing Ethics,
here, he uses "rape" also...
A final implication of this imperative is that rape is unethical: the mountain must have the chance of turning you down...
When you rap bolt a route there is little doubt of the outcome. Isn't that the point of rap bolting?
I have to say, what was done on HD was done more for the love of climbing and climbers than for the love of the mountain. How many have gone over there with the idea of putting up a great line and been defeated? We won't ever know... but in some ways, they didn't force an outcome and left it to a later generation to put up a route.
It is perhaps ironic that their love of the mountain was a deprecated value to that later generation.
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WBraun
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
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"..the mountain must have the chance of turning you down."
I like that, although I doubt anyone can conquer a mountain.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 15, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
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Personally, I save my love for family.
Stone is stone. Good for countertops, climbing, paving, sculpture and a whole ton of things!
So "raping" a mountain might be excavating it, but tossing some bolts in hardly amounts to much.
Climbing is recreation. It is not a competition against a mountain - IMO - but I am happy to agree to disagree on that. Not worth a twist in my shorts.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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The road to hell is paved in bolts and sport anchors. REPENT!
Shelf Road;...Colorado's best crag......rack of draws.......enough metal hangers to offset magnetic north.....
(Just stirrin' the pot.....c'mon...this topic has more posts than Crimpie's picnic.....don't give up now......Gotta love that Boulder, yes Crimpergirl?......)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 02:17am PT
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Learn from our trad brothers the Czech climbers.....BOLT THE CRACKS.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 02:30am PT
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Brits don't want to spoil most of their crags with bolts...so they come to America where it's O K. Brit Nic Conway at Joshua Tree on Badger's Choff Piece, FA (Damn 1/4 " bolts to....shit the bed, no nose.......)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 02:35am PT
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NOTICE: ALL FIRST ASCENTS SHOULD BE DONE LIKE KURT SMITH DOES IT. NO RAP BOLTING.(FA Black Out, Tuolumne Meadows...ground up, bolt on the lead, no TR, no electric drill, no BS) .......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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Even Third World Countries bolt up their crags.....Suesca, Colombia: Get over it......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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The Euros were leaving us in the dust....thank God for Alan Watts.....he saved America Climbing and brought back the respect.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 02:56am PT
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We'll bolt anything here in America......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 17, 2008 - 02:57am PT
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Shouldn't that be COLOMBIA, not Columbia?
Not that we don't have such activities up here in one of the alternatively-spelled Columbias. :-)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:02am PT
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Learn from the French. (The best climbers in the World)
(Thanks, Mighty Hiker;...I can change 25 diapers a day, put sport bolts and convience anchors in rock, but can't spell worth a damn......and me am a teacher too!)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:10am PT
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With bolts, we carry our courage in our rucksacs. Everything is now possible......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:12am PT
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Bolt wars get out of hand....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:15am PT
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I have a solution to confusion at the crags as to which route is which.......
Spraypaint around each bolt makes them easier to see too....)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:23am PT
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Al Gore says, put in a sport anchor;....then you won't have that braided climbers trail from the walk off back to the packs at the start of the climb;....it's the right thing to do. Think Green.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:26am PT
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With Freedom, comes responsibility.....(My father's favorite quote...)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:28am PT
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You know where those rap bolters eventually end up .......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:30am PT
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Quit your whining;...just be thankful you have ROCK to climb on...not everyone does...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2008 - 03:32am PT
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Sleep in the bed you make for yourself....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 09:47am PT
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The devil wears lycra..
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 09:51am PT
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From the good/bright side..
to the dark and dank side....how did it happen??
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 09:58am PT
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There still hope and time for salvation in the dark depths of the Black Canyon.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 12:00pm PT
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is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?
interesting way to ask the question, now that I look back on the OP. I guess the view is that the "trad only" school is seen as restricting and/or inhibiting climbing by adopting a set of rules that are no more valid than any other set of rules. It is sort of "post modern" way of thinking about it, that is, everyone brings their own experience as part of interpreting the rules.
So what are the rules, anyway? I think Frank Smythe's [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=588524&msg=589666#msg589666"]Expediency[/url] article essentially hints at it in the last sentence:
It is essential to the well-being of mountaineering not to overburden it with mechanical aids but to keep it as simple as possible.
Now we could agree that this is the right way of doing things, but realize the relative nature of the statement and the variance that arises out of the particular circumstances of individual climbs, or even climbing areas. We could even fit rap-bolting into the picture and still believe that the way things should evolve, ideally, would be to keep it as simple as possible.
It was a very sobering thought, while watching Brearshear's Storm Over Everest Frontline program, just how far from Smythe was the idea of guiding clients to the summit of that peak. I suspect that Smythe would reject the notion that such activities had anything at all to do with mountaineering, aside from appropriating the techniques and the equipment.
Similarly, one might propose that there are really two very different cultures using the vertical rock resources: one using it in the manner we would recognize as in line with the traditional rules, and one using it as recreation. As in the guiding world on Mt. Everest, there are climbers who make a living guiding, or putting in routes on rock (as the parallel activity) who have no problem with this activity. They do not claim that this activity has any relationship with "traditional" climbing. The people doing it do not wish to engage in the "traditional" ways, they just want to get up a climb, be it a difficult 80' bolted rock face or a 12,000' ascent from base camp to the highest point in the world.
So it is very easy to just respond to Ron's initial question by saying both, the "trad only" school is noble in that it upholds the original vision of mountaineering, and at the same time it is "selfish" in that it would impose a rather severe judgement on activities done in the mountains (or on the cliffs) as "not climbing in the traditional manner" when they departed from the "trad only" school.
What is interesting to me is that people who put up and do routes beyond the "trad only" school would object to being so identified... it would seem that they still feel the need that the climbing be validated by inclusion with that school. Why else would they be so earnest in their discussions here? What is the value of the association?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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I think we'd all agree that cams are "less than simple" and marvel at the routes people did before cams, using just nuts and hexes.
Now whether or not we choose to do the same is up to us, but we shouldn't be fooled that we are doing the same climb.
Don't you agree?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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Ed said,
"What is interesting to me is that people who put up and do routes beyond the "trad only" school would object to being so identified... it would seem that they still feel the need that the climbing be validated by inclusion with that school. "
I've always wondered that myself... like when TD folks don't want their "style" reported in a guidebook while GU folks do. What gives?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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The beauty is that there are many ways of climbing. However, when I eventually get around to trying to lead Cream, I will do it with a rack of modern cams, which makes it very different from Klemens' original route.
It's not likely that I would go up there with a rack of bongs to "recreate" the original FA style.
We also put in a better anchor than was left there, since it seems the intent of the FA was to provide a bolted anchor. Original topos had only one bolt, we found two, both very dicey protection. We replaced both bolts with 3/8" x 2.25" SS anchor bolts and SS hangers. (However, we left one of the found bolts there, which should be removed as the bolt seems to have snapped, didn't realize this at the time).
Best style? probably debatable. But the amount of tat up there on the mank was definitely not good either. However; more importantly, the approach is over rather fragile ground, definitely suggest rapping onto the ledge from above and climbing out as a better way. If that area ever gets popular (a big if), the traffic will definitely ruin the foliage in the "square gully" going down. Which would be a pity.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 05:17pm PT
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Ed...you seem to playing both sides of the fence...and that is a good thing. I think a lot of us do between what was, what is.
Each generation will continue to add it's own spice to the pot...not all of us will enjoy/like the favor.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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Bob, don't really think of it as two sides of the fence, rather, continuum. But I always know where that "best style" place is, the "traditional rules" and I don't have any trouble owning up to what I'm doing.
It took a long time for me to put a bolt into stone in the Valley. Mostly climbing with Eric and learning what is acceptable locally, what it means to "keep it simple." I also don't mind admitting to less than good style on climbs that I do, I'm still learning and getting better (I hope), and I do strive to climbing by the "trad rules." While I'm doing that, I'm not going to mess things up for climbers who can climb better than me, just because I thought of doing a route. I'm going to leave it. I really like the idea of "catch and release" routes, where the ascent team passes leaving the climb in as near an untouched condition as possible; and then not telling about it... something for someone else some other time... leave your ego on the ground.
My feeling is we all work that continuum.
But as John says, "Up is up. Down is down." There are absolutes here, no question about it. We know what a good style ascent is, one that realizes the "trad rules." Not to say that other climbs aren't good climb.
To me Smythe has it right when he confesses:
I now realise that it is the joy, the good comradeship, the climbing that matter in mountaineering, not the attainment of the objective.
I do believe the same.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 07:10pm PT
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Ed wrote: But as John says, "Up is up. Down is down." There are absolutes here, no question about it. We know what a good style ascent is, one that realizes the "trad rules." Not to say that other climbs aren't good climb.
There are questions about it...starting from the ground doesn't always produce a better route or experience for the FA party or those that follow.
Your is an opinion and strong one. I get a little weird/leary when anyone start dealing in absolutes...especially in climbing. Good style mean many things to many different climbers.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 07:15pm PT
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"two sides of the fence" is also a bit strong, I just don't see it that way. Instead, I see it as going to the well to get inspiration, the well here is our traditional rules. And we move away from the well... doesn't mean things aren't good or right.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
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Ed...hope you are not thinking that I think your thoughts or opinions are a negative.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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nope... just thought I might not have expressed my thoughts well enough above.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2008 - 09:21pm PT
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No Ed, ya done good.
Its not necessarily a black or white question. There's gray in there. There's a spectrum.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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Ron wrote: No Ed, ya done good.
Its not necessarily a black or white question. There's gray in there. There's a spectrum.
What about people who start with no history or lack of perspective??
They know little to nothing about trad-rules and why should they care??
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 09:28pm PT
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bob- that's what this thread, and coz's threads are all about, giving those that do have history and perspective express their point of view... hopefully the whole discourse has done that!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 17, 2008 - 09:36pm PT
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I once led Cream in Eb's with tubes and a #4 friend, no way I'm doing that again! Besides that fact that I can barely do the approach, let alone the climb, these days...
Nice transgresional side discussion, btw.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 09:47pm PT
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Ed wrote: bob- that's what this thread, and coz's threads are all about, giving those that do have history and perspective express their point of view... hopefully the whole discourse has done that!
Look at the average age of the posters on this tread. Not to many young ones. I think we are missing out by not having a younger perspective on this issue.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 17, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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It's allways good to know the history and the guide lines for the diferent styles.. and you should think carefully before you commit to putting drill to stone. Once you make the decision to drill It better be a good rout because your hammering and drilling is going to be there for a long, long time.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 17, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
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Hey,Bob
Tradman makes a good point. its true.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 18, 2008 - 12:05am PT
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Would you rather go to a Rolling Stones concert with Rosie O'Donnel, or a Dog Show with Angelina Jolie?........It's not the route,...it's the experience and company.......with that in mind......crappy climbs can be fun, and * classics can suck.....each climbing experience is unique to the party.......(Best, of course, is the concert with Angelina.........boing.........) We have all had not-so-fun experiences on classics, and a blast on suck-wad climbs.......it can be ass-backwards...........Didn't A. Lowe say the best climber in the world is the one having the most fun?.......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 18, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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Jaybro: "I once led Cream in Eb's with tubes and a #4 friend, no way I'm doing that again!"
Yeah, next time borrow a 6" bong from a pal, and have the full-on experience!
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Kevin and Bob.
The younger generation will respond 30 years from now.
They will have their own hell to deal with then.
I guarantee it ...... :-)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 18, 2008 - 12:57am PT
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Kevin wrote:he question posed in the OP might not require much debate amongst most younger climbers - they were introduced to climbing at a point where side by side ethics already existed, unlike most of us.
Their general lack of response to the question would lead you to believe they generally think it more practical (nothing to get yer panties in a bundle over), than a trip down the road to hell (something worth avoiding at all costs).
I agree Kevin and that what I was trying to get at. They have taken a different path and look at it from a much different perspective.
I also want to say that even through these conversations can get somewhat heated...I respect almost everyone input and greatly enjoy seeing that even through we are over the hill we are not out of the loop.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 18, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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Bob-
You never answered my question about the
Sports Park in Boulder canyon..
Do you think it's ok, or perhaps a bit "over the top"
??????
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2008 - 11:36am PT
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Wow! Todd's really got a thing for women who bear twins!
Maybe he can get Angelina to adopt him.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 18, 2008 - 11:47am PT
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Don't worry about the younger generation, they're lurking to catch our perspective and -- mostly -- gone climbing to develop their own.
"The function of posterity is to look after itself." -- Dylan Thomas
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 18, 2008 - 12:48pm PT
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dave wrote:Bob-
You never answered my question about the
Sports Park in Boulder canyon..
Do you think it's ok, or perhaps a bit "over the top"
??????
it's makes me a little ill....and in the new guidebook I am writing to Boulder Canyon I am leaving it out.
Funny..Ii don't look at the people who did it as bad or immoral...they are good people and still friends.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 18, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
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Thanks Bob...
I'm am glad you can see what the "extreme"
side of sports/gym ethics have created.
It's pretty obnoxious if you ask me, in an area with
not hundreds, but thousands of good quality routes.
I think methamphetamine must have played a large part
in that. You really gotta wonder.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 18, 2008 - 01:25pm PT
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Dave wrote:Thanks Bob...
I'm am glad you can see what the "extreme"
side of sports/gym ethics have created.
They weren't gym or sport climbers who did it...
Dave...how are doing? Richard Aschert and I are heading down your way to Big Rock tomorrow. Are you climbing again??
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 18, 2008 - 03:11pm PT
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Bob writes...
"They weren't gym or sport climbers who did it...
Dave...how are doing? Richard Aschert and I are heading down your way to Big Rock tomorrow. Are you climbing again??"
___
I don't know exactly what they were, So were they trad climbers ??
Anyway, I'm back climbing again, getting up easy .10
on TR and such. With all the hardware in my ankel I'm
trying not to fall on it. Before I got hurt we (Mark, Glen) were pretty active doing lots of new stuff up on Rampart
Range and Mt. Herman.
What are you guys gonna do on Big Rock ??
Say hi to Richard, is his Dad
Fred still with us, how is he doing ??
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 18, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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Dave...we are Going to do Fields 0f Dreams...Fred is still with us and feisty as ever. I'll tell you say hi.
Kevin...it a cliff were just about anything went.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 18, 2008 - 04:05pm PT
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Re: Boulder canyon "sports Park"
For those not familiar with that, it was a somewhat chossy
crag just a few miles from the Castle and it's famous trad routes.
Apparently this area was completley contrived for sport climbing with high density bolting and chiseled routes.
A few people went up there with chisels, bars, generators, lighting and even kerosean heaters and made their own little climbing gym.
Heres some more info...Read the comments
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/boulder/boulder_canyon/105744761
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 19, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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bump. Who needs politics?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 16, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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Looking at the numbers, on any given day the vast majority of climbs done worldwide are sport climbs.
Sport climbs utilize bolts.
The term "ground up" is nearly always used to refer to the style in which bolts are placed.
Bolts are added and are not a part of the natural rock architecture. Bolts are environmentally questionable and certainly utilizing them diminishes the style in which a climb is done.
The question shouldn't be about the merits of ground up climbing vs. sport climbing. The question should be ground up vs. rap bolting in regards to climbs utilizing bolts.
It's as if bolts and fixed pins were "grandfathered" in because they were heavily utilized in rock climbing bitd. but only if placed ground up in traditional style.
Bottom line....we all establish are own ethics in the anarchical world of climbing. Personally, I love the rock opened up to me vis a vis sport climbing but shun their use when establishing new alpine or alpine rock climbs.
I have established many alpine and alpine rock routes over the years and have placed a total of two hand drilled bolts 37 years ago. I also, weather permitting, plan to go sport climbing tomorrow.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 16, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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Regarding leaving areas sacrosanct in the pristine style in which they were established.
Dresden is world renowned as such an area.
Two of the most famous proponents of the Dresden style were Berndt Arnold and Kurt Albert.
Arnold and Albert came to the Fitzroy Masiff and made very liberal use of fixed ropes and a Bosch drill.
Does their style away from home negate the pure but artificial style they helped establish in Dresden. You can't use chalk or modern protection devices there but let it all hang out when you travel somewhere else.
Reminds me of Saudi Princes who condone the death penalty for adultery in their homeland while making liberal and repeated use of Vegas prostitutes.
Which area deserves the best style....urban Germany or the magnificent mountains of the Patagonian Andes?
Edit: I have met both Albert and Arnold in Patagonia and found them to be delightful people.
I'm just trying to point out the trickiness of establishing ethical codes in climbing....we all end up drifting into hypocrisy.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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May 16, 2015 - 09:47pm PT
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Am I the only one dying to know if that Jody person ever got his clock cleaned at the bridge on June 2, 2008? If ever a guy begged for it...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 16, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
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Loved the quote that Ed H posted early in the thread.....
"(Climbing is)...a test of strength and skill in surmounting natural obstacles undertaken in accordance with traditional rules, and governed by the love of the thing for its own sake."
Frank Smythe, British mountaineer, 1900-1949
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
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My feeling is that the trads undermine their own high point by so demonizing those who have a different view.
The keepers of the flame must be ever vigilant and remorseless in their righteousness.
There is no mercy and, certainly, no salvation for those who glorify a path of weakness and
indulgence.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 17, 2015 - 04:55am PT
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There as no violent altercation at the bridge 6/2/08
Jody & Ed Hartouni at the Bachar memorial in '09.
Kumbaya 'n shit!
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