Side by Side Ethics, Practicality or the Road to Hell?

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bachar

Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
May 10, 2008 - 11:43am PT
t-man - Yes I hated the whole rules thing actually, but #3 was the most stupid. I just wanted to attempt a compromise to see if it was at all possible. That must have been around 1985 or so.

I had just had my ground up bolt chopped on a cilmb in Tuolumne (which I was actively working on) and the party invovled rap bolted the whole route. They couldn't even find their own project.

Point being, even if you don't "snooze", you lose.


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
I think John Stannard proposed this earlier;
But we could schedule a meeting at Yosemite Facelift to give it a shot again. Perhaps even publicize it in the mags? (To increase the likelihood of getting fair representation across the board).

Maybe do a Yahoo group, where rappel bolters could post up an intended top-down effort, and give the ground up folks an opportunity to respond, providing for their chance to have first crack at it.

Then, if things wind up being too "museumlike" after the ground up route is completed, horror of horrors, a little retro bolting could be considered so the final outcome is not so exclusive.

Or it could be voted to be left as is, if deemed worthy.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
May 10, 2008 - 01:01pm PT
Tardaddy writes: Then, if things wind up being too "museumlike" after the ground up route is completed, horror of horrors, a little retro bolting could be considered so the final outcome is not so exclusive.

I'm all for this. If a route does not get at least 3 ascents in a fifty year span, it can be retroed for the dickless rock starved masses.
bachar

Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
May 10, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
Russ is right. I would vote for a hundred year span of no ascents - then add an escalator or tramway to the route so all can enjoy.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 01:38pm PT
You guys are on it!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
I really had no idea this would be so easy.
And fun too!
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
Tar wrote: Maybe do a Yahoo group, where rappel bolters could post up an intended top-down effort, and give the ground up folks an opportunity to respond, providing for their chance to have first crack at it.



Why?

They have had numerous chances to do many routes in any style they wanted...and they haven't.

Boulder Canyon is a good case in point. Close to a popular climbing city with a solid base of trad-climbers, short approaches and routes that can be done ground up if they wanted to put the time and effort in...they just won't do it.

Most just complain after the routes are in and say they could have done better.
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
What's gonna happen is all you guys are going to be reborn many times over and end up freaking out that your so called trad lines have become retrobolted and made sport climbs in your future lives.

You won't remember either. But you'll all become basket cases in your future lives and end up in the nut house. Yep wearing straight jackets and drooling.

I know you don't believe it, but .......
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
Ha ha!
I am in a straitjacket now Werner.
I'd have to be so, in order to be posting up any open-ended ideas on this thread.

You know Bob,
I have to agree about Boulder Canyon.
Most of the good trad lines have already been done long ago.
What's left is Choss in that regard (discontinuous and choppy, not that elegant or logical in terms of trad climbing), and I can see how what is left can work out better for sport climbing.

And although your argument might hold about trad climbers getting around to things in Yosemite, I wouldn't compare Boulder Canyon to Yosemite, not in terms of quality potential lines.
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
Tar...I disagree with your assessment of Boulder Canyon, there have been many new classics done in the last five years and they could have been done ground up or by rappel.

This sh#t is really getting old...no one stopped anyone from climbing that route on Half Dome in the last 25 years...the reality of it is that no f*#king so-called trad climber wanted to make the effort to do the route. If they use half the f*#king energy they used complaining on the internet they might have a good chance of getting up the route from the ground!

Hope you know this semi-small rant is not directed at you.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
Keep in mind Bob,

As you argue for things to be left as they are, meaning unstructured, with no agreements and with a relatively laissez-faire arrangement, any of the suggestions I'm posting here are meant to address the OP, and to take a peek at what agreements might look like, or how they look in other areas of the country where they have been implemented, such as they are.

On a personal level, I have to say I don't really care a great deal what happens about all this bolting hullabaloo. But I don't mind tossing in a little intellectual grit as an aspect of my participation in, and perhaps a contribution to, the community and a sense of community.
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
Tar wrote: On a personal level, I have to say I don't really care a great deal what happens about all this bolting hullabaloo. But I don't mind tossing in a little intellectual grit as an aspect of my participation in, and perhaps a contribution to, the community and sense of community.

Funny...is that the same community that wanted to beat Henry Barber up when he came to the valley and freed some routes that locals couldn't do...the same community that called Sean and Doug rapists
and almost every other word in the book for their route...the same community that harassed Paul and Todd when they came to the valley, Alan Watts when he did the Stimga and Ray Jardine for using friends. Let not forget how that community laughed at the Huber brothers when they first came to the valley with plans to free some big walls...the list goes on...

You Cali-boys need to get over yourself's.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 03:50pm PT
I think it's bigger than that now Bob.
To clarify: the community I am addressing is inclusive of all of those individuals and groups which you just mentioned.
jstan

climber
May 10, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
Roy:
Not sure to which proposal of mine you refer, but no matter either way.

I would suggest a couple of things.

1. If involving Facelift is a possibility several of you should first sit down with Ken and mull over all the pros and cons. Are we ready for a meeting?
2. You need to think over the format or the ground rules of the meeting. I am not suggesting Robert's Rules of Order or any such but there has to be something. Suggesting a time limit is very good for helping people to prioritize what they wish to address. The meeting has to focus on something so perhaps the first few minutes might be spent defining what the group thinks the problem is? If it is too early for a meeting you will get no consensus on even this. If you do get agreement then what people feel the meeting can achieve might be discussed.
3. You need to come up with a respected neutral moderator. Ken is the natural choice but he may not want to fill this role. So that you waste no time, I am out.

Maybe something like:
What is the problem?
What can we realistically hope to achieve here?
Then what might be approaches to the problem(s)?

(It might even be that a short, perhaps smaller, meeting early in Facelift could deal with these first two parts, and then a larger meeting later could address approaches? Dunno.)

My opinion, based on 2300 posts is that discussions of climbing style lead nowhere. Probably not even the issue, I think.

It was at such a meeting that we in the Shawangunks defined our objectives, and very successfully so.


bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
John wrote: My opinion, based on 2300 posts is that discussions of climbing style lead nowhere. Probably not even the issue, I think.


So what issues keep us from working together???
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 10, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
John. I am well aware that those rules were put together a long time ago when you guys were in the process of dealing with a new style of climbing.. Euro invasion so to speak. Even today I wouldn't mess with someones project without asking them first but in some circles anything seems to be fair game.....
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
Now now Bob don't put in some weird perspective.

Henry Barber did not do some routes the locals couldn't do. He climbs the route the next day after the local had cleaned the route the day before.
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
Werner...is Butterballs still in the Valley??
Mimi

climber
May 10, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
Bob, I'd like to offer opposing views regarding your historical accounts. As for the Sean and Doug debacle, name calling is to be expected and is totally consistent with the schoolyard brawl mentality of which I'm a proud member. The trouble is, Doug was a kind friend when I got to know him and I'd rather not comment on this controversy.

Henry had the rep for poaching routes. Common knowledge. Since when is there a shortage of bombast between rivals? I think his antics are classic despite how big an ass he could be.

Criticism of Paul and Todd was due to the disdain for their hangdogging and other tactics, nothing more. Most everyone appreciated Todd regardless.

As for the Stigma drama, Alan Watts was not the one who was being hassled, it was Todd for pre-placing pins for his attempt. When some of the pins were pulled, Alan did the ascent without them, and therefore, in better style than Todd.

My recollection of the feelings toward Jardine was that he was dogging hard routes, using these new topsecret gadgets, and eventually claiming the FFA or FA. Of course that would ruffle some feathers.

I'm pretty sure it was JB that was on the receiving end of the sucker punches. Sad sauce but nothing that wouldn't pass for fraternal love in a fine British pub.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
May 10, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
You both forgot the Valley Boys versus Kim Carrigan.
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