Good Anchors, Bad Anchors

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 74 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 09:33pm PT
perswig:
Chiloe, I'm with L. That nut pic ^ is beautiful. Were you tryin', or is that just a happenstance
of amazing colors and juxta textures?


Thanks. I set up that nut picture, but just casually -- I'm far from being a real photographer like
Jerry, Nefarius or Wes.

The earlier ring-bolt picture that started the thread was just a snapshot, though. I reached the
top of a pitch and thought "Wow, lookit that!" I didn't even notice the second crack until
I enlarged the pic later.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 09:42pm PT
Steve Grossman:
Seems like a good test case for some very fat studs and beefy stainless keyhole hangers to
keep the exposed metal to a minimum.


There's a theory I would not want to test, after all the cracked-through (not eroded from
the surface) stainless I've seen in the past two weeks. When you're backing off the edge on a
free rap with waves booming against the undercut wall below, or thinking about an F2 fall on
your sling belay as the leader calls "Watch me!" before he's reached the first pro --
more excitement is not needed, even to save money.

Then there's the story of a climber who yelled "Take!", gently weighted his top bolt, and
zippered the pitch.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 3, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
You know, somehow those old star drives and button heads in leeper hangers don't seem so bad anymore.

It's amazing how the issue of "good" and "bad" bolts isn't so clear cut.

I've been replacing the bolts on a face climb that one would think should be absolute mank. 1/4" button heads, smc ss hangers, probably placed 20 years ago in sandstone, and maybe 200 yds from a saltwater fjord. You'd think they'd be absolute rusted through mank, but I've been having a bear of a time pulling the bolts. All the original locations were too close to cracks or were fractured so the new bolts went neerby in as good a location as I could find.

I'm thinking the mitigating factors that limit corrosion are lower temps and hence lower humidity, almost a constant breeze blowing down the arm, and many freshwater sources feeding into the arm.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 09:49pm PT
L

climber
If only I could remember....
Apr 3, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
Now that is art!

And it looks like something that isn't going to make the rock bleed like in Hardman's photos...another plus.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
tolman paul:
I'm thinking the mitigating factors that limit corrosion are lower temps and hence lower humidity,
almost a constant breeze blowing down the arm, and many freshwater sources feeding into the arm.


I suspect you're right about the variables. Brac is a warm, hypersaline environment, with salt
spray soaking the limestone cliffs top to bottom. On many routes you've got to watch the waves carefully
to judge whether the belays will be safe.

I've heard that Cuba and Thailand face similar problems, though. Perhaps there are others.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 10:23pm PT
Bad anchor, good anchor -- I didn't bother to clip the one on the left.
The sheared-off remains of its twin can be seen to the right of the Tortuga bolt.

Double D

climber
Apr 3, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
Chiloe, as always, awesome photos.

morphus: That's one of the best "ancient anchor" pictures that I've ever seen...truely classic!
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2008 - 09:35am PT
Upthread, Greg Barnes rightly noted the key article on this topic by John Byrnes, Skip Harper
& Mike Shelton, "The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea." In case anyone missed his post:

For those who are wondering what's going on with the bolt in the first post, this article explains
why titanium is the only option for seaside bolts, especially in warm climates:

http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/deepbluesea.htm
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2008 - 11:56am PT
And, speaking of the devil, I am authorized to channel the following note to Hardman
Knott. Old rec.climbers will immediately recognize the voice.

***
Yo Hardman Knot, didja forget what I taught you?

First of all... 30 years?! Not a f*#king chance. The Tortuga bolts will out-live everyone
and anyone reading Supertopo today, and their children, grandchildren and great
grandchildren (ad infinitum).

Secondly, you said, "Although many of these were 15 years old, they still required a
good effort to remove. I came to the conclusion that Stress Corrosion Cracking (SSC)
is knott occurring out in these parts, as it is in the Limestone sea cliffs of Thailand,
Vietnam, Cayman Brac, etc." But earlier you said the bolts were mere carbon steel (or
perhaps galvanized).

Doh! SCC ONLY occurs in Stainless. So you even though you got the right answer, you
still got it wrong! ;-)

So when are YOU gonna get down to the Brac? I need someone to belay me.

    Lord Slime, still kickin'
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2008 - 11:36am PT
I need someone to belay me.

OK, I've shuffled through a few more of the too-many photos from last week. Here's the
project on which Lord Slime needs a Hardman Knott belay. Solitude, striking views,
steep clean wall -- ain't been redpointed yet AFAWK.

Shrug

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2008 - 11:45am PT
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2008 - 11:51am PT
Shrug's anchor looks much prettier than mine. Is it bad or good?
Shrug

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2008 - 02:05pm PT
Well... the fall foliage is pretty.

The anchor... scared me quite frankly.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Apr 9, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
Shrug, what's the purple webbing doing, it looks slack?



Here's an anchor I had to bail off in a storm.
Prod

Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
Apr 9, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
Hey Bluering,

I thought the purple webbing was the bad anchor and the green was the good?

Also, I'd retreat off of your anchor any day, looked bomber. No?

Prod.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 9, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
Chiloe wrote (and quoted the legendary Lord Slime):

And, speaking of the devil, I am authorized to channel the following note to Hardman Knott.
Old rec.climbers will immediately recognize the voice.

***
Yo Hardman Knot, didja forget what I taught you?

First of all... 30 years?! Not a f*#king chance. The Tortuga bolts will out-live everyone
and anyone reading Supertopo today, and their children, grandchildren and great
grandchildren (ad infinitum).

Secondly, you said, "Although many of these were 15 years old, they still required a
good effort to remove. I came to the conclusion that Stress Corrosion Cracking (SSC)
is knott occurring out in these parts, as it is in the Limestone sea cliffs of Thailand,
Vietnam, Cayman Brac, etc." But earlier you said the bolts were mere carbon steel (or
perhaps galvanized).

Doh! SCC ONLY occurs in Stainless. So you even though you got the right answer, you
still got it wrong! ;-)

So when are YOU gonna get down to the Brac? I need someone to belay me.

    Lord Slime, still kickin'


***


Hey Lord Slime - learn to fuÁking read!! ;-)


Here's what I wrote above (bold added):

I would also like to point out that when Dirty Kenny and me were doing a bunch of
rebolting at Mickey's, we also chopped and patched a bunch of old 3/8" stainless bolts.

http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/mickeysbeach.htm

Although many of these were 15 years old, they still required a good effort to remove.
I came to the conclusion that Stress Corrosion Cracking (SSC) is knott occurring out
in these parts, as it is in the Limestone sea cliffs of Thailand, Vietnam, Cayman Brac, ect.



Anyway, tell Lord Slime I'll try to make it one of these days, hopefully before I'm too old to climb...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Apr 9, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
Prod, since I'm still here it was a pretty good anchor. I was the last one off the thing and snapped the pic thinking, "That's be weird if this anchors fails and the pic is in my camera".

Anyway, it consisted of three tiny nuts, only one of which I felt real good about.

The largest guy in our threesome went first and we watched the rig. After that I felt pretty good about it.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2008 - 10:24pm PT
Hey Lord Slime - learn to fuÁking read!! ;-)

That belay session oughtta be FUNny.


But the photo of Slime's project reminded me of a lesser bad-anchors issue,
this one involving carabiners.


Below his Lordship in this pic, there's an odd-looking clip. Looking closer, it
turns out that he passed up a bolt with a quickdraw on it. That's a bad old
bolt, but it's a bad old quickdraw too.


Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2008 - 10:29pm PT
Any solid-gate biner that you leave behind, in this environment, becomes fused shut in
less than a week. After that, it takes tools to remove them. So if you leave a bail
biner, it clutters up the bolt indefinitely. You should never bail on a solid-gate
biner here. The quickdraw in my photo above was left by some previous party, and
until that bolt gets chopped or breaks off, it's part of the route.

Wiregate biners remain open-able for somewhat longer, but even they look pretty sketchy
after a few weeks in that air.

Messages 21 - 40 of total 74 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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