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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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I hear you, me too! I'm just looking down the road and wondering. Plus, I'm pretty much all trad all the time, so I'm pretty ignorant in the ways of the big wall mank-mongers, and why continue to do the mank dance. Thanks for explaining it to me without belittling. I really do appreciate it.~~~~~SA
Edit: Klaus, that looks an awful lot like a "Him Hang" but I guess you already knew that. Doesn't look very "hard". Someone should do a traverse variation and call it "Sack-Up". Did you hear the one about the two kiwis?...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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One place we might agree regarding the sort-of mank on trade routes is...Don't clean the heads. Banging more heads in on each trade route ascent just beats the rock to death and pretty soon you have to trench em.
Don't place heads where clean gear can go either (like lost arrow placements that could take bomber cam hooks)
There have been discussions in the context of Middle Cathedral regarding whether routes that relied on fixed pins for free-climbing should have those pins replaced by more pins, or bolts, or just let the climbs get scarier, or use Steve Grossman's pin-bolt idea. I don't have a link cause i'm crashin
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
But that is not how Sean feels. I think he explained it pretty clearly; certainly Russ understands it.
What he feels is that he is tired of hearing the spray (aka B.S.) about chopping. And he expects if it was actually chopped that he would feel upset/angry. Well, I think that is how most of us would feel if somebody felt so negatively about one of our FAs. This does not translate to a desire to hurt somebody. It might translate to some angry words with that person. And Sean said he would not be afraid of confronting someone who did something that bothered him. Not for the purpose of picking a fight, but to show that people who take actions should be accountable, and be ready to explain what they did.
I find the preemptory statements by Jody rather premature; I don't think that is the right approach, because some people will be tempted to do it, partly just to see if you follow up. This is not about testing Jody's integrity (I'm sure he has it). It is about tolerance, as Kelly explained many posts ago. Some people don't like the fact that the upper part was rap bolted, but can tolerate it. Some will spray about chopping, which is ignorable to some and disturbing to others. *If* a route is junk and not worth the bolts or methods used to do the FA, often it is best to just leave as an example and let people see it for themselves. It seems clear that the climbing on Growing Up is not junk. Maybe it looks like a "lot" of bolts, but there are a lot on other routes in the vicinity (except Southern Belle) - as with Wings of Steel, when there are few cracks, it is going to take bolts if you want pro.
The ground up alternative on the upper slab is there waiting (go left at the top of the 60' bolt ladder), if somebody wants to go up there and take on that challenge.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Clint
I thought I was saying pretty much that same thing in different words ( you're interpretation of Sean's anger)
Both Sean and Coz have gone through a few cycles of posting upset and posting cool. It's like the cycle of emotions between two guys who were dating the same gal. Sometimes it's helpful to look at the time of night posted for insight about states of mind.
Coz, if you read back to Sean's angry post (which wasn't directed at you) and his follow-up posts, it'll give you a better perspective. It wasn't about you. Kudos to you for suggesting that they remove their own bolts rather than call for chopping despite being upset.
Since the guys said they hand drilled the route, you've come out and stated it was power-drilled. Are you claiming to know something we don't, or do you just figure that would have been too much work to do by hand, or just mad last night?
I have faith that you guys will work out this latest twist in the road.
peace
Karl
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Russ Walling: ...But then, what about the 5.6 guys?
Now, there's no need to drag us "5.6 guys" into this muck, but since you asked...
For the most part (can't speak for everybody), we'll look up at stuff like that and mutter under our breaths, "Holy Mackerel, Andy." And then move on.
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jstan
climber
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Sounds to me like the "5.6 guys" have really got it together.
Good people with whom to travel!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Maybe the "5.6 guys" could organize a Canned Sardines Fest.
Or Pb&J.
As a guide, however, I happen to know that 5.6 guys drink some of the tastiest Scotch...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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White pants are hard to keep white. Even if you like the pureness of
white, it's really hard to keep 'em that way. But white pants are cool,
especially so because everybody knows what it takes to keep 'em white.
But once they get stained, you gotta get a new pair of pants if you really
want white. Some pants, though, well there ain't no replacing them.
You can carry on the analogy by adding color. Some colors pollute the
absolute white, while others can actually add a bit of funk to the suit.
The fact is, there's really no replacing anything that you hold near and
dear. You can look for a substitute, but it's never the same. This can
be good, or bad. As stated above, it's your frame of mind that makes it so.
If you think GU soils Half Dome, then it's done. Chop the route, it
doesn't matter, the route is still there but with trash instead of
useable bolts. The fact is, chopping just soils the face that much more.
This debate is about keeping the SFoHD white. Some think it's our
last/best pair of white pants. "We need a place where only the boldest
can go. A place where we know you are God if you go there." A place
where us dirty climbers kept a drawer sanitized to hold those white
pants, for the future climber who's gonna step up and make us all proud.
Little piles of rock in JTree don't matter. Little rocks lower in the
Valley don't matter. We're talking about the pinnacle of pureness getting
stained. Somebody poured black paint down the face of the ivroy tower.
Go climbing for crying out loud. And if you want some white pants, you
might have to look farther than Half Dome, the rock with cables going up
the back side.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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hey coz and sean, you guys are very passionate about your climbs, and it shows. i just want to let both you guys know that i think physical fighting never solves anything, and it would be really sad to me if GU cause any fisticuffs. this, after getting thrown to the ground last year in patagonia over...bolts getting chopped!...but that's another thread.
everybody should try to just settle down a little bit, and breathe. coz, i've known you a long,long time, and i really feel for you bro. i had to accept rap bolting on my beloved medlicott 15 years ago, and it was tough, but i could see i didn't have a choice, the sport wave was coming, and i had to much respect for the rock to encourage a bolting war...besides the fact that i'm a lover, not a fighter.
i guess what i'm trying to say to people is
DON'T CHOP GROWING UP, PLEASE.
shipoopoi
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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K-Man wrote
"Little piles of rock in JTree don't matter. Little rocks lower in the
Valley don't matter. We're talking about the pinnacle of pureness getting
stained. Somebody poured black paint down the face of the ivroy tower. "
Pinnacle of pureness? I thought we covered the history of Half Dome already. This is far from the first bolt controversy there, not to mention a lot of other stuff.
Heros are like tele-evangelists, the more you know, the more the human side is revealed.
Peace
karl
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jstan
climber
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Quality is our global added value!
I must be getting old.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Egos have been really flaring up the past few days, egads.
Chill out, no one is fighting anyone, or even threatened to for that matter. This isn't recess, the big bad bully coz isn't going to make fun of you and throw dirt in your eyes, and meanie sean isn't punching anyone (although I would love to see a good fight, just saying :D)
On a seperate note... no one is going to chop the route... its a long ass hike and a pain in the a$$. Its one thing on serenity or the cookie, but add a 3 hour approach, the chopping ego-heads are only bleeding hearts so long as its convenient.
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laazrockit1
Social climber
mariposa, ca
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hey humans,
i've climbed with sean for years. we put up "sky people 11c" in the ribbon falls amphitheater. just wanted to say, the next time you find yourself vexing out over style, and all that other shi#, get up off your ass in front of your computer, and GO CLIMB A ROCK!!!
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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even though i am with you Coz, fighting is not the answer....
But we all need to consider the facts, and the question now stands, does this act open the last bastion of tradition and adventure to the gym climber mentality?
why can't we keep a few of our most respected and awed places more adventurous?
I would rather see a few more small holes in the rock ground up, than to take the rap bolt approach to half dome. holes can be filled and any ground up route can be done in good clean style and be safe or not. that is the choice before us..
ks
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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a paraphrased distillation of some of Coz's remarks
"when you come to town......dinner and beers are on me and we can agree to disagree"
and then presumably after dinner
"let's beat the crap out of each other"
now that's chivalry.... and I like it
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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has this pile seen a second ascent yet?
:)
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Sean Jones
climber
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Hey All,
Looks like we were getting somewhere awhile ago, then all went to hell again. Sorry for that. My attitude didn't help any.
Coz,
I never said my way is the only way. Ever. I also never addressed you personally about the chopping thing, and never mentioned anything about fist fighting.
Just stated my opinion to everyone and now we're heading for a fist fight again.
Steve,
Thanks for the words of wisdom above. Much needed.
If I dropped down SB and added a bunch of bolts because I thought that was the right thing to do. I would very much understand people's frustration and even bolts being removed.
That's not the case nor will it ever be. Just as I don't appriciate a bunch of people screaming about thrashing my work
and ripping it apart.
There's some pretty down right rude things on this thread and directed at me. I think I've kept my spirits up for the most part about it all. Some of it hasn't been easy though.
Now I have Cos spraying about power drilling. I can hand drill at least 20 bolts a day and I wasn't alone up there. It took 4 1/2 months to complete this project. You do the math. Not to mention, they're not that big. The 10 mm are 2 1/4 in. long and the 3/8 are 1 3/4 in. long.
You know, for many years now, I've put so much of my time into climbing in so many ways. And more importantly, I ve had to fight and fight and fight some more to make a living at it. That's a very hard thing to do as many of you may know. Scott should really know.
The more you push and push to bring me down. Espessially spaying all over the net about power drilling. Who was that guy that got busted on EC ? The more I realize how this could effect my entire family. The loss of everything I've fought to build for them. Food being taken from the mouths of my children.
I'm not trying to sound threatening. But I urge you to lay the f$ck off of me. Far beyond wars over ethics and bolts. I'm really starting to boil when it comes to peolpe destroying my life and f$cking with my family. At this point, that really is where this is now.
I would NEVER do to ANYONE for any reason some of the things that have been done to me on this thread. We don't have to agree, but we should try hard to get along and process this thing like Steve said. My vote is for PEACE because that's who I really am. My guns are down. Please don't push me into the corner because I will fight my way out of it.
Again, sorry for any sh#t attitude I've thrown out there. Even to the ones hammering me. I know me getting pissed doesn't help anything. Much thanks to all that have had a possitive attitude. Not for being on my side, but just for staying possitive. The world NEEDS that energy bad. Sorry for slipping on my part.
Sean.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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In the spirit of ST social gatherings such as Sushifest, Shootfest, and Crimpie's Welcome to Boulderfest, I propose a Slugfest. Just put on some big marshmellow gloves and have at it.
Of course the main event would be coz vs. Sean, but other possible match-ups could be:
Matt vs. whoever tries to make the 3,000th post
Russ vs. anyone who thinks they're funny (would go 1 round)
Jstan vs. anyone who thinks they're smart (no contest)
Fatty vs. any democrat
Lois vs. Happie
Any others?
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Klaus vs. 12 miniature Mike Ditkas
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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FIGHT ??
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