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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:50pm PT
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Cheese and rice! If you don't recognize that there is beaucoup plenty of thought been given to this route (on both sides of the question)that was not engendered by Royal or Ken Nichols or any other instance of bolt chopping then you are not paying attention.
Sean pointed out that no bolt should be chopped. I was pointing out the idiocy of that statement. Its sooooo one sided, and I believe he's the one crying closed mindedness. Sh#t happens in both directions, get over it.
Your turn to pay attention.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Russ,
I never said a word about punching anyone out. I've never started a fight in my life and don't plan on ever starting one.
Don't really know what to do about all this. Maybe just find the person and give them my oppinoin. Face to face.
If they want to start throwing blows, that's their deal.
Am I going to go around punching people's teeth out and face charges or maybe even get my ass kicked and face charges.
The answer is no. I'm not stupid and not an as#@&%e either.
Am I ready to go face to face with anyone about anything and deal with the consequenses.
The answer is yes. Many people right here in town and even talked heavily about today are also sick of bolt chopping. These are very adament climbers and long time Yosemite locals
Do they have the balls to tell some f%ucker to his face that they're sick of this sh#it ? I don't know. But I do. Do I think I'm some big ass kicking bad ass ? No.
I do understand about things like Serenity and other routes where the original route was disrespected. If someone wanted to change my route, I would much rather they talked to me and explained why first.
So I do understand. But The whole bolt chopping thing needs to be done in super clean style or the end result is even worse.
And I've seen plenty of that around here in 20 years. A bunch of dudes running around policing the rocks, making an even bigger mess, yet were in diapers when the route went in in the first place.
As for Serenity crack and so many others ( guess you can call them cracks now that the seams have been beaten to submission )
The bolt is the least of my worries. Less damage would have been done there and in soooooo many other situations if bolts were placed to begin with.
I really don't know what to say about it all. What to do ? What not to do. Does anybody really know ? Best we can do is keep communicating and try to get to some place that makes sense to everybody. God help us!
Sorry if my attitude sounded sh#tty upthread. Just annoyed a bit and confused like everyone else.
PEACE !
Sean.
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WBraun
climber
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My opinion, not that anyone even gives a sh#t.
Leave the route, (GU), the fuk alone. It's up, and a done deal.
Go home and piss in your pants if you can't handle that.
I'm so glad I'm not a rock climber ....
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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So, your "threats" are the threat of a chat? Seems a wee bit tamer than the previous texts imply.
Sean, I'm not really trying to bust your balls or anything, but guys getting KO'ed is pretty real stuff. It sounded to me like this was going to be the line in the sand.... chop it (or any bolt) and get knocked out. Threats like that would for sure diminish the chopping pool. Or worse, the real possibility of a picket fence smile would drive the choppers underground and then they would become "chickenshit choppers" which IMO is worse than rap bolting. Not that I'm really against rap bolting... per say..... but I do frown on pussy choppers who do the terrible deed at night and then hide in the cloak of anonymity.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Hey Werner... this is a "climbers" forum. Maybe you should grab some Basmati and STFU.... M'kay?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jody = clueless and at best a T1
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WBraun
climber
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They're out of Basmati, ship me some .....
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Check your mail box next week..... nobody does the Basmati down here... only Captain Crunch.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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With 2,110 posts, that must be more or less one post for every vertical foot the climb ascends.
The SuperTopo department of useless statistics strikes again. :-)
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Hummm....Somethings fishy here.
Are some posters not really reading the posts that they are responding to?
Or are they reading into these posts and.......projecting?
GROW UP!
EDIT: POST 2112 RUSH RULES!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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What do that many quality bolts cost anyway. I'd be pissed too if I invested that much time and energy in something and somebody came and screwed it up.
And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
Peace
karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Karl wrote:And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
Choppers for the most part are sneaking little slimes who have the backbone of a jellyfish.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Kinda like rap bolters?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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LOL! Way to keep the party going...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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All bolts will be chopped in the end.
Anyone recall the controversy on the Dru: in 1975 Thomas Gross soloed a new route (with his guitar!) and placed an unprecedented 68 bolts. People were livid. Then in 1997, a massive 300' high chuck of rock fell off above the mid-way point and erased the route.
It make take a few millenia for Half Dome, but give it time, the human monuments will be someday be gone.
In the meantime, you might as well enjoy the climbs.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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I've resisted the urge to post up on this til now.
I read the original write up when out and didn't have a problem with the style even though it was not my style (which is not relevant to this discussion). It wasn't my ascent.
I find all this talk about bolt chopping disturbing. I've done FAs without bolts and had others place bolts on subsequent ascents. I haven't run out to chop the "offending" bolt nor have I advocated someone else doing so. Their actions had no affect on my ascent.
I will never climb Growing Up. I'm too old and have too many other things going in my life to make it a priority. Sean and Doug's actions have no real affect on my life.
If you aren't going to climb the route, the same is likely true. Their actions have had no real affect on your life, either.
If you are going to climb the route, and the number of bolts offends you, don't clip them. Climb it your way and make it your own ascent.
Or climb something else in your own seemingly superior style.
All this talk of bolt chopping is simply ego on overdrive. Get over it. The horse is dead.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Can I just ask one innocent, honest and serious question?
The last time I was in the Valley (last Sept.) my buddy and I were talking about climbing the Prow with a Czech guy we met. The topic of fixed gear (copperheads and such) came up, and it was explained to me that the Prow is rated 5.6 C2 only if the fixed heads are still in place. So if somebody took a fall, and blew-out the fixed heads, the rating goes way up until somebody with heads fixes them again (could be the faller, could be somebody else).
I have been wondering, since I stumbled into this discussion, If this is fixed gear that we are talking about, and it periodically has to be pounded back into functionality, isn't that more damaging in the long run than placing a bolt right next to where the fixed gear was, and making it (mostly) permanent?
I honestly don't get why we keep dicking around with this type of thing. The Prow is just one example, but the concept I am talking about is fixed gear that periodically blows and gets replaced. How many times do you think that can happen? Which is less intrusive, fixed gear mank, or camoflauged long-life bolts? I'm just wondering when we shift tactics to address the reality of fixed gear longevity?
I'll take my answer off the air, thank you.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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So did your worries of the fixed mank keep you off the Prow? Would you have gone up there if there were "longlife" bolts at the crux, instead of possibly scary placements?
mank = adventure and risk, and some people like the uncertainty of it all.
I suppose at some point, when there is no more placements at all, something will probably be done. Exactly what, is unknown, and in the end may be nothing.... the route may no longer exist. Or you can dumb down and bolt the fuk out of the thing with colored holds and turn the C2 into 5.8. But then, what about the 5.6 guys?
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Hi Russ, good question.
The answer is no. We ran short on time and water bottles, and chose to do the Lost Arrow Spire instead.
I think I catch your drift though. I'm just thinking out-loud. Showing my ignorance; that's what I do.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Spencer: yeah... tough questions on stuff like fixed mank getting replaced with good stuff.
Earlier Sean said something about Serenity Crack being better off if it was bolted long ago instead of pinned out to oblivion. (paraphrase) So who with such a vision is ready to bolt up (or down) a crack in the name of preservation so that crack will look just the same in 50 years?
Currently, bolted cracks are generally frowned upon, even in the name of vision. So do we just destroy all the rock until there are no more placements and then turn the crag into an outdoor gym? Hard to say. Somewhere in the middle is what will probably happen, through regulation, be it official or community driven. At some point we will settle on a standard. I think that point is many many years in the future, unless forced onto us by some evil governing body.
On something like the Prow.... if I had to guess, those heads will need to blow and blow and blow until there really is no way to make them stick. Then someone will place a rivet, which will work for a few years and then blow, and then someone will place a bolt, and then when that rusts out, someone will place a giant bolt. And so it goes. The visionary would argue to just place the big asss bolt now, since we can all see what will happen if we don't. But in the end does it really matter? Probably not. But, to some the experience is richer standing on some mank, or perhaps perching on a rivet rather than on a bolt. The blood pumps a little faster, fear has a chance at getting to the small hairs on the back of your neck, and the feeling of accomplishment is a bit more intoxicating than if you were standing on a bolt that could not fail. Getting by with some uncertainty is what makes the game fun. You never hear anyone say with any enthusiasm, "man... you should have seen how cool it was standing on that big new bolt!". But, you will hear time and again guys talking with wild eyes about how, "it was so Jingus!!!....I'm like 20ft out and have to clip this shoelace dangling from a rusted RURP.... FUK MAN!!! It was HAIRY!" I know which story I'd rather be telling.....
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