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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
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I don't mind the PhD's. Maybe they have actually tested stuff out. I just don't like evangelists telling me I am going to heck because my thumb is pointed in the "wrong" direction, or because I am doing something slightly different than they.
We like to test all kinds of things related to climbing. Test at what load a belay fails with thumbs or palms one way then another. Look at stats on belay failures. How many are there anyway? What actually caused such failures? Focus on real events and real evidence.
The other thing I really don't like is people telling about blowing up a bathroom and not giving a decent story. That is low! Probably deserves its own thread though.
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edit:
What Healye says.
I gotta keep returning to a simple principle. Have belayers hold gradually increasing tension with different techniques and devices. Have them hold simulated falls of gradually increasing force. They will figure out what positions work best and they will understand why.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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Hey Rokjox,
That's the one. I pried the little metal piece off of the side, I think it was used as a clip in loop while you belay to keep the piece from falling down the rope? Not positive about that, but I didn't like the way it rubbed the rope when I was rapelling. Other that that it's a great all around piece, I've tried Grigri's and find them cumbersome clumbsy. I still have one for aid climbing and have soloed a bit with it.
Prod.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Blowing up a bathroom is a lot like a few other things, which I won't mention. The expectation is far grander than the reality. Be a short story in any case. A millisecond or two at best.
Seriously though, this thread is starting to get realistic.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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999 out of ever 1000 belay failures these days happens because someone 'locked off' the handle of a grigri. In fact, I would hazard a guess that around the globe, someone, somewhere is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri on the order of every 15 minutes 24 x 7.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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Jstan,
I think the excitement factor could be based on where the charge is located and the general direction that the energy will travel? But I get your point.
Prod.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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God! It worked. I got the thread onto a higher plane.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:24pm PT
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I actually threaded a Gri-Gir backwards and held a 20 footer, though it ended up being closer to 30 ft because of rope slippage, and I ended up with 2nd degree rope burns on my palm. But my lock off kept my friend off the deck. Don't remember if it was thumb up or down, however.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
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It seems to me that the 'pinch-and-slide' technique which maintains the strands parallel for some time is a holdout from the days of the Munter. That is the optimal braking position for that technique. I cringe whenever I see someone doing that with a tube device and it really shows a lack of understanding of its function.
People get really lazy and start just sliding their brake hand without holding the rope with the other. They always seem to be somewhat experienced climbers which shows that complacency can be more dangerous than ignorance.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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I don't know, I'd guess 'pinch and slide' is more likely from hip belaying.
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raymond phule
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:03pm PT
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"People get really lazy and start just sliding their brake hand without holding the rope with the other."
Is this really that bad? I would much rather climb with someone that do this compared to someone doing the following with a standard belay device.
"It seems to me that the 'pinch-and-slide' technique which maintains the strands parallel for some time"
I have often seen this method in the US. Is this the thumb pointing from the device method people talk about here?
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nevenneve
Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:22pm PT
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I was failed on my belay test at the gym the first time I used an actual belay device. My technique of locking off above my head to deflect the 250 lb. climber pulling my head into his ass was deemed inadequate despite the fact I successfully took the slack out of his devious jump into the test fall. I almost did drop the ---- when the employee looked me in the eye fifteen feet up and told me I failed to assume the lockoff position until lowering both of us. To this day I still feel it was some of the most conscientious belaying I've had to accomplish.
Monkey edit: Does anyone have one of the pictures or the story of rope burn down to the bone. I can't remember where I saw it but believe it was either from a near thing in Yos. or JT.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:40pm PT
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Jstan, Sooner or later no mater what the topic the conversaition eventualy turns to $hit;)
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:50pm PT
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The problem was use of the word "incorrect". If the title had been, "Most people's belaying is below average", we might have saved a lot of electrons.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 11, 2008 - 03:25am PT
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If people learned how to belay as shown below, as far as I'm concerned, they can hold the rope in their teeth.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Mar 11, 2008 - 03:57am PT
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Ciao DMT! We've got a stellar cave here, where the youngest and oldest 5.14's have been done. The belay technique is the same, but the preference for Cinches, GriGris, and old fashion coin devices pretty much rule. Getting to the roof is no problem, negotiating the stalagtites and ribs is hairy at times.
We use tethers or QD's to clip an overhanging spit to ease up on the belayer.
Personally, I'm not fond of sport climbing, but when it's raining the cave is always dry.
Cheers, Michael
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 11, 2008 - 11:32am PT
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Nice pictures...
Polish Graffiti Class?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 11, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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I some times change hands in mid-belay.
Still feels like I am belaying though.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 11, 2008 - 03:10pm PT
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TiG: Squamish belay class, 1977. A 100 kg rock hurtling from the sky definitely makes hip belayers pay attention.
Edit: Yes, they're my photos. Vancouver-area mountaineering clubs used to have a basic mountaineering program every spring, which included some rock climbing. All "experienced" climbers got to help, as volunteers. I wonder if anyone now does such realistic simulations, even given the changes to technique and equipment? Probably insurance companies would freak out if they found out about it.
I've often thought that subtlety is wasted on climbers. Introducing them early and repeatedly to the notion that they're doing something that is dangerous, and may kill them, isn't a bad thing IMHO.
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