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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 9, 2008 - 05:56pm PT
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I see it all the time. People act as if the idea in belaying is to have just the right amount of rope out.
WRONG!
The idea in belaying is to catch a fall without ever failing to do so.
What am I talking about?
Thumb position.
Sure; its easier to reef the rope in and out with the thumb of the braking hand pointing AWAY from the belaying device. But if you give an experienced belayer ample advanced warning that they are about to catch a big fall it is far more likely that they would instinctively move their braking hand a little further from the device to avoid being "sucked in", holding the rope down against their hip for extra friction with their thumb pointed TOWARDS the device to maintain the best purchase of the rope.
Sure, plenty of people have caught lots of falls the other way, but thats because they had to. It doesn't negate the fact that holding the rope with thumb towards the device IS more secure.
That should be the priority, catching the fall not feeding the rope.
But I doubt there are many on this site who haven't watched the lackadaisical motions of others who acted as if belaying was more of a ritual than a function.
Belay failure isn't funny. It happens a lot, but is inexcusable.
The next time you see someone belaying in the manner that the statue belayer in the Ogden Climbfest thread (OMG, the wrong way now immortalized!) is holding the rope with his thumb out you should say, "Are you prepared to catch a hard fall or just hitch-hiking?"
(My guess is that there are plenty of stick-in-the-muds who will insist hitch-hiking is better, rather than concede the point. Remember the gym climber quote in the mags; "I've been belaying like this for two weeks and never had a problem!"
Ah yes. The voice of experience.)
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Can't resist beating dirtineye to the punch to tell you to take it to RC.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Oh, and I'm 100% with you regarding your actual point.
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jstan
climber
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This kind of thing just does not compute IMHO. When you tell someone how to do something never having met the person and with no idea of their specific talents, there is a big downside hanging out there. Joe attempts to interpret my well-meaning but entirely remote advice and craters.
Now how do I feel?
Someone explain it to me. Please.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
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For YOUR belayers Weakwrist.
and Rockoops; the pic of the statue was on the Taco.
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Salathiel
Trad climber
South Beach, FL
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I thought the thumb was to provide pressure for the bottle opener while getting a celebratory beer for yourself having suckered the leader into doing the most heinous pitch.
Blur
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
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jstan, if he craters its because of the pro, or he let go.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Hmmm, and how do you (personally) position your brake hand while giving a hip belay?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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What kind of ammunition do you recommend for proper belay technique?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Most people do not belay.
Most people have never seen a climbing rope.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
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Off White,
same
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jstan
climber
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Or he was unable to follow your instructions.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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Not letting go is pretty universal as an instruction.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Ron, in a fall, how much rope slippage occurs through the belay device, on average?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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PR-
Didn't see the pic, but no matter... I wasn't actually complaining. This just seems like the sort of topic that old codger dirt loves to get all indignant about and I thought I'd beat him to it for fun. I must be bored. I'm gonna go do something constructive now.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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The reason you see this is due to the retarded way they teach new climbers to belay by bringing both hands together over the belay device.
Why they teach this technique is beyond me.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 06:23pm PT
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Who is "they"?
Rockoops, see Radical's photo on ClimbFest.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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I looked... He's also standing in the middle of all his nice loops of cable.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I remember first lessons on belaying at the gym. It felt very clumsy all that 'brake hand up, pinch rope, slide down, lock off' motion....
I can't remember which way my thumb was - that was the least of my concerns. I just felt the process so awkward and time consumer for each 'cycle' of hand/rope movement that I worried it took my focus off my climber. I thought there was too much time with the rope quasi-locked off, or completely unlocked(as in doing the 'pinch/slide' thing.
Instead, I developed my own method intuitively. I started holding the my hand(thumb toward the ATC side) in a tube shape around the rope. As I fed slack with my left hand, I unclenched the 'tube' just enough to allow rope to feed, lifting my hand position only as high away from a good lock off as was needed to feed rope. It depends on how quickly my climber climbs and yards for a clip as to how high away from the lock off I went.
Pretty much my brake hand is about the same distance from the ATC at all times, sliding toward the device only if I can't feed quickly enough to not do it. My brake hand 'position' is about the distance form the belay device to the outside of my hip.
"They," who teach the hands over the device crap, are the evil gym gumbies.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Ron, this incorrect way you mention, actually sounds very awkward to me.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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That old squeeze and pinch method is usless as tits on a boar hogg. That being said the propper belay possition is both hands busy changeing cloths, getting food or fiddeling with the camera.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"They" refers to guides. The AMGA actualy endorsed the method for a number of years. I've heard they are shying away from this now. "Guides" in the gyms love to teach the technique. I see it used so much out here by climbers
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"That old squeeze and pinch method is usless as tits on a boar hogg. That being said the propper belay possition is both hands busy changeing cloths, getting food or fiddeling with the camera. "
True, but you forgot opening beer.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
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What about 'loading the bowl'?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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proper thumb position is essential...
you have to be able to get it out of your ass at a moments notice.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Ha ha ha....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 07:27pm PT
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Once again, the voice of experience!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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I don't understand any of this. I just put the rope around my back and hold on with my left hand while I hold my cigarette with my right. Am I doing some thing wrong with the cigarette hand? I don't use the thumb on my cigarette hand, I gotta think about that. Now I'm all confused.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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my buddy steve bitches too much when i wake him up for slack.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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I bet the woodster holds his cig like a euro. LOL
EUROFORD!
What timing!
Second Edit;
Woody, joke. Not serious.
We all know you hold your cig with your LIPS while you lead.
Photo below looks OK for a bandito.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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So, I suppose with the thumb pointing away, this is wrong?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Thumb goes on top of beer opener.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Low blow Piton, really looowwwww!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Once upon a time, Rgold wrote about how to hold a serious fall with the palm up method, and I still think he is the only one who understands that aspect of palm up belaying. I honestly don't think 95% of palm up belayers would know what to do with a big fall, and I bet they do either get burned, let go, or get sucked into the device.
YOU don't have to be palm up or palm down specific to get sucked in, just too close. I have a friend who had that happen to him, in the late 80's or early 90's, and he never did it again, haha!
those toothed belay devices like atc xp and so on go a long way to making the belay job easier. with the smooth jawed devices I'd feel the pull in my hand, with the toothed ones I feel the pull more in my belay loop and harness.
Like most of you guys here I want that brake hand around the butt or hip and below the device and locked off on a big fall.
As for rope through the device, I once had a 235 pounder fall while i belayed at 135 pounds. he fell 20 feet, and snatched me off the ground against the anchor. I don't think any rope passed through the device, and I was locked off at the time. I was just glad I had a chance to get the guide hand onto the break side and out from in between the device and the anchor.
Yeah, this stuff goes better on rc.com, but st is now so much like rc.com, who cares any more? at least it's not a which rope is best thread, or a rope marking thread.
Crap, rock oopsie was fvcking with me so much, I was hoping they would be a girl, but no such luck. damned gay climbers.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The braking position Dirt refers to, supposing the right hand to be the braking hand, is to wrap the right hand down to the left and part way around the left buttock if you are belaying with thumbs away from the device. This is a stronger position than bringing the right hand down to the right hip as you would if belaying with the thumb towards the device, and it also makes it easier to get the left hand onto the braking strand too for extra holding power.
Personally, I find this dilemma reaches a peak if you climb with double (i.e. half) ropes. The thumb-towards-the-device position is stronger (how much stronger?), but I find it much harder to manage two ropes effectively in this position. (And I really don't find it any harder to manage a single rope in the thumb-towards-the-device position.)
My solution, popular with almost no one else I know, is to use the TRE gadget, with allows you to belay in the natural thumb-away-from-the-device position and "pinch and slide" with no braking penalty as well as manage two ropes more easily.
I also think that when it comes to stopping hard falls, gloves may be as important as hand position.
(Definition: a "hard fall" is a fall that the belayer cannot stop without rope slipping through the belay device. My unscientific sense is that most climbers, including some with years of experience, have never caught a hard fall. The collective experience of this majority of course shapes the prevailing attitudes about belaying.)
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Speaking(writing) of 'hard falls',' I know I've never caught one that put much of a shockload on my hand or belay device point, or any other part of the system.
The most I have ever had was the tug forward in conjunction with my not getting a stance to brace against.
I'd be interested to have any idea what a real f-er might feel like(edit: I'm not saying I want the experience personally! hahah). Anyone good with descriptive jargon?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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That thumb-pointing-away and both hands up at head level is the standard belay procedure taught in a lot of gyms. I suppose it must work, cuz people aren't cratering and dying every day, but it sure seems like the least-safe method imaginable. Maybe it works well with a gri-gri?
I'm with rgold on using a TRE, which offers a combination of all the good features of an ATC and a gri-gri, with none of the negatives of either. Why it hasn't become hugely popular is baffling.
D
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Hard-fall image.
If the rope starts passing through your hand, picture grabbing hold of a hot soldering iron. The burn will look and feel pretty much the same. (Which is why you just might let go, before you can help yourself.)
This is part of what Ron is getting at.
If you can anticipate such a fall, maybe standing on the rope below the break hand would add a nice additional measure of safety.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 09:38pm PT
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The second time I caught Scott Fischer on the Minotaur he fell 20m passing me. I was lifted about 1m and the rope sheath was partially fused on its side for 2-3m where it had run/stretched over the hex that caught the fall. The 3/4" tube tied shoulder sling that connected rope to hex "melted" halfway, but held.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I've caught twenty or so hard falls with a hip belay; I've never had to catch any with a belay device and haven't caught a hard fall myself in about 40 years now.
The reason for so many hard falls is that in the sixties it used to be considered mandatory to practice catching leader falls. The set-up we had put the belayer on a catwalk, the rope running from the belayer to a nearby but slighly higher sling and biner. The weight was hauled up past the sling an biner and fell well below the level of the catwalk; on average we had fall factors around 1.5 for these practices. We used old laid nylon climbing ropes, which may have started out stretchy but got stiff pretty fast.
The belay was a hip belay; we padded out waists and wore gloves. We of course knew we were about to catch a fall but there was no warning about when the weight would be released. The impact was impressive. The belayer was launched violently up against the anchor and was sometimes flipped upside down. Most of us dropped our first few falls.
I only had to do this once in real life, a factor-2 fall caused by a breaking hold. I was using a hip belay and was tied in pretty tight, but the impact drove me down to my knees. The anchor was a single good 3/4" angle in a horizontal crack. The rope ran over the edge of the belay ledge and the friction over that edge may have helped, because it seemed as if less rope slipped than in our practice sessions. We were also using a kernmantle climbing rope that hadn't been subjected to factor 1.5 falls day in and day out, and so might have absorbed more fall energy and left less to be soaked up by the belay.
The leader was unhurt and we continued on with our climb.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Mar 10, 2008 - 02:53am PT
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When belaying a leader, feeding rope out, it is more natural to belay with the thumb on the brake hand pointed towards the belay device. The brake hand tends to remain in the locked off position until it is time to feed some rope.
When top roping, taking rope in, it is more natural for the brake hand thumb to be pointed away from the belay device. This allows rope to be taken in quickly and smoothly. There is never significant strain on the belay in a top rope situation, so I don't see any problem.
When body belaying it is natural to have the thumb pointed towards the end of the rope and away from the belay device (your body). This is true whether taking rope in or letting it out. The braking position brings the hand across the body which would be very awkward with the thumb pointing the other way.
Having people practice taking falls or simulated falls of increasing force makes a lot more sense to me than getting them freaked out about which direction their thumb should be. Belayers can safely learn a lot about belay forces just by holding steadily increasing static force.
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marky
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:03am PT
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what PM wrote makes sense. Most "climbing" is done on TR, either at the gym or the crag. On TR, the thumb-away method is, in my view, unobjectionable. It will hold a fall no problem, at no harm to either climber or belayer.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:49am PT
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I'm with Fonda on this one 100%! When we started the Club Arrampicata Napoli here in Italy, 8 out of 10 of the climbers belayed #1 incorrect hand position, #2 too much slack, or #3 in a half-daze. It was like pulling teeth to get everyone to do the "slack, swing, switch, slide" technique. Cheers, Michael
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 08:46am PT
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Gotta say I am with Rockjox on this one. caught pleanty of big falls and never dropped anyone except that one time I was takeing a picture and I didn't really drop him just let im go a bit farther for the photo;) Seriously it was a clean fall hitting nothing but air;)
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Mar 10, 2008 - 09:43am PT
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I'm the one that launched the shot on Dirt he was referring to earlier. The look on his face was worth the trip down. I just can't catch the "right" way. Mainly I can't reel-in while you're on your way if my thumb's pointed in the "correct" position. If we're climbing on singles and I'm paying attention (no chit-chat or pretty girls in the immediate area) I can haul in a ton of line before the rope goes tight. I've tried and tried to learn the new way but it seems so awkward to me that I feel you're better off if I'm doing something that I'm confortable with. None of my partners has ever rejected my belay. Oh yeah - my catch hand locks off with the palm facing down and the rope crossing the back of my hand - inward and downward twist. That last snatch usually pulls back through and my hand is jammed up against the device. The free hand finds the device and covers it (either slides down the line from the snatch-in or slides back down your end if you fell without screaming first. When you're hanging there looking up at whatever just happened my hands are matched thumb-to-thumb at the device. I've caught a zillion drops like this and never lost one. (I can catch Dirt with just a firm grip on the rope) If it's wrong then I do not repent. I have a gri-gri thingie in case you're skeered
RRK
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 11:45am PT
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Rokjox has it 100%
I have caught a few and taken a few. I've had it 'round the hip and through a variety of metal. I've even had it in the ear before, but I have a lust for life. Only once did I drop someone. And that was funny for both of us. Actually, I didn't drop him, he set himself up AFTER a fall by grabbing the rope between me and the first point creating a detour in the rope path. After he had recovered from fall #1 he let go of the detoured rope and proceeded to drop out of site for fall #2. Hilarius!
As far as getting sucked in, with the amount of tape some folk are wearing for ANY type of climbing (is it really necessary to tape up for a face route?) I can't see anyone getting much of a rug burn.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Mar 10, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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Anybody notice how it is that the sport seems run by a bunch of sissy women on the rag?
Mmm. Obviously you don't hang out too much around women, on the rag or otherwise. All the gyms I've climbed at are run by dudes anyway.
People used to try and hip belay at the gym I'd climb at, but they'd get yelled at almost right away. It's the gym/sport mentality that doesn't translate into outdoor climbing reality. I've seen plenty of people get a hand burn on a "device belay" but maybe once on a hip belay; I think the hip belay had a pretty high fall factor too... 1.4 or so, where the device belays had less than that on average.
It really depends on how good your stance is while standing, though.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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"Thumb toward the device crowd, do you do anything different for sport climbing belays?"
Yes! I avoid them. hahaha.
Just kidding. Since I rarely climb sport, I belay as usual, which is the way I am most efficient. But, if I changed situations, where I was climbing sport more frequently, I would change if it seemed I couldn't get rope out quick enough for a smooth feed(as is suggested here).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Thumbs toward device. The belay is locked off naturally, by default, with hands and arms in their neutral positions. I caught a fall while asleep once, while climbing at night. Good habits add a lot of safety.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:16pm PT
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What about giving a sport belay on an overhanging route? Thumb toward the device crowd, do you do anything different for sport climbing belays?
Depends on the terrain. If they're trying to clear a big roof, then I might have a bit of a "sport loop" slack in the belay, in case they pop off (and I don't want them to get whacked into the roof). And I'd be ready for the "soft catch". Bit different than if I was at Stone Mountain in North Carolina, and my partner peeled off (always like to eyeball the belayer flight path there).
Its interesting. There's two gyms here in SLC and they teach the belay differently. One, palm up, the other, palm down. The palm up version (thumb pointed away) makes me super nervous. I usually (ahem) outweigh my belay partner a tad. If I fell when they're doin' that hand shuffle thing, with their palm up, my bet is they couldn't hold me and the rope would get pulled through their fingers.
Palm down, brake hand always in brake position. Gives me peace of mind. My main gym and outside partners do it that way and it seems to be pretty effective .
That said, the gym that teaches what I'd consider to be the better method, has had a bunch of close calls lately. At least one guy hit the floor a few weeks ago, and, another friend just about got dirted as well. Inattention might be the bigger player than hand position!
Anyhoo...
-Brian in SLC
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:23pm PT
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"People used to try and hip belay at the gym I'd climb at, but they'd get yelled at almost right away. "
I believe the reason for this can be stated simply enough, "The insurance policy says this is what we must do."
Like so many things that go on in a gym, it is not the real world of vertical rock, wind, ants, runout leaders, sun-baked ledges, frozen butt bags, wrong-nut-wrong-place-wrong-time, hand-too-big-sack-too-small, no tincture, too much chalk, where is that bolt? Damn it's chopped! Now what... guess I'll have to think for myself.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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There is another thing I believe this discussion is missing. Every situation is different. Suppose I always set myself up for a fall factor 2 where the direction of the force may start out pulling upward and then catastrophically downward. Then I do this on a route where the leader is moving out quickly or the weather is closing in and we are going to be freezing to death in another hour. Short roping will increase risk not lessen it. Suppose the leader is way out has finally gotten protection and now tries to clip. It is a big fall potential so death preparation is best? No way. Give the leader his best chance of clipping. If there is a big fall you will have a little time to readjust your belay. The smart thing? Have your worst case readjustment all planned out.
It takes as much skill and experience to be a good second as it takes to be a leader. You are busy scenario planning, preparing your prussick slings when they may be needed in a hurry, clipping the rope into a biner for a directional or extra friction if needed. When the pro got doubtful I have even extended my anchor a little to make the belay more dynamic as I get whipped around. You have to think about the forces that can develop should various parts of the system fail.
When people who know very little are out there climbing one is tempted to think there is one particular safest way to do things. NADA. The best thing to do? When climbing with an inexperienced person explain, as if you are just figuring it out for yourself, why you are doing what you are doing. They will get the idea very quickly. Better than even odds they will be thinking, "Damn. This climbing crap is even more interesting than I thought!"
Happie:
About 30 feet or so out on the right side of the shale point you should be able to dig up a short length of concrete curbing. It was just beyond the outhouse which R. Walling blew up forty years ago, if that is any help. It used to be hauled up into the trees there and dropped for belay practice. It may not look heavy but when we caught it on 40 feet of stiff goldline after a fall of eight to ten feet we got jerked up into the air and spun like a top.
People need to go through this experience.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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While this *may* be a good topic for rc.com, I have to agree with Ron completely. The palms-up (or thumbs-out, as Ron describes) method is simply not safe, IMO. I always use the palms-down belay method. Your hand is in the position to lock of fast, and properly, behind your hip. I think palms-up is just flat out dangerous. Not sure why so many gyms teach this method.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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Domingo,
I think the hip belay had a pretty high fall factor too... 1.4 or so....
Could you describe how high up from the belay the piece was, and how long the fall was, approximately (or how far above or below you the faller ended up)?
Thx
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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Anticipation is a big part of the belay gig. Even Carly Simon sung that song....(bad joke).
But, yeah. It always surprises me when I see bored-face belayers. I mean - occasionally you've got a snail who ain't sketched and ain't going to fall. And yes, that's boring! But otherwise - geez! I enjoy the sense of partnership I get when being "alive" as a belayer, and I know my partners appreciate it to. I know I sure as hell DON'T like it when my belayer is unobservant and generally lackadaisical.
JStan - I'll have Dick show me that spot next time we are headed past for trailwork(yeah....soon I will be back to kick-ass Sunday workouts. I get more tired from the trailwork than a day of climbing). He'll know the spot, no doubt?
Did Russ really blow up the outhouse????? I never heard this story - do tell!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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I like how we belayed in the day.
Shipley leads the hard ice pitch to a sloper ledge. There is no anchor to be found, Heh Heh, the fun starts.
He belays with hip belay and brings Stretch up.
Oh boy, now it's my turn, and the hanging icicle I'm climbing snaps off with me attached. Shipley starts to slide off the ledge while Stretch grabs him to keep us all from going to the base. (Remember there's no anchor)
Such good fun we had, and now like Roxjox said you need a Phd in this bullsh'it to even make it out the door.
BLAH .......
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
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There can't be anyone who has not wondered what happens when you blow up an outhouse. Pure imagination is not adequate to the task. I will leave it at that.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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It all depends on my stance, the anchor, the climber, etc. For the most part I belay with a 20 yeay old Selewa stitch plate that Tar gave me. About 1/2 and 1/2 with the thumb toward or away, but I've never had to catch anything near a factor 2 fall, most likely upwards of 1- 1.2? once or twice.
Here is how it goes most of the time. Grunt, grunt, grunt, get a piece in, clip, fumble, clip, "take" "Take" "TAKE", "phew that was hard, let me rest it out a bit". "Ok watch me close", "shit take". But I'm no bad ass that's for sure.
Prod.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
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I have to agree with Dingus that it is entirely dependent on the situation. This discussion is very similar to the figure-8 vs. bowline tie-in discussions. Either technique is entirely safe and effective in the hands of a competent climber. Where the argument is generally made for one way over the other is in [reliably] teaching new climbers. I personally don't happen to believe that just because a method might be the easiest way to teach and verify a student's behavior necessarily makes it the 'best' method. Rather it generally means it's 'best' and easiest on the instructor and their insurance company.
It frankly doesn't matter a wit whether you are thumb in or out if you fail to minimize the time window when the rope could potentially run on you or you can't establish and maintain a good lock-off. Everything else borders on irrelevant. What matters is competence, regardless of method. And events like getting you hand sucked into the device is also not about method, but rather incompetence, whether a momentary lull or an enduring trait.
I still hip belay a fair amount of the time and have caught endless falls with them including lots of hard falls. I've also belayed with about every type of device ever made and never experienced any noticeable 'slippage' of any kind with or without a device. Effective locking off essentially precludes it regardless of the belay method or device.
In general, I'd say a far bigger problem in belaying is the widespread trend these days to narrow the scope and definition of 'belaying' down to this one, albeit critical, element. This works fine for the limited scope experenced in a gym and or on many sport climbs, but is woefully inadequate as a prequisite for trad climbing. By and large, kids these days don't know about anchoring, stancing, bracing, establishing belays in the context of the overall rope system, proper tensioning and slack, understanding what an out-of-sight leader is doing simply by rythmn and feel, or - in many cases - that belaying is about the leader and not the belayer and their immediate trials, tribulations, and distractions.
'Thumb in' is really no improvement if it's 'thumb in' ass...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:40pm PT
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Rokjox - bummer they don't sell those spring stitches anymore. I still consider them the best device for teaching belaying to beginners.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
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I don't mind the PhD's. Maybe they have actually tested stuff out. I just don't like evangelists telling me I am going to heck because my thumb is pointed in the "wrong" direction, or because I am doing something slightly different than they.
We like to test all kinds of things related to climbing. Test at what load a belay fails with thumbs or palms one way then another. Look at stats on belay failures. How many are there anyway? What actually caused such failures? Focus on real events and real evidence.
The other thing I really don't like is people telling about blowing up a bathroom and not giving a decent story. That is low! Probably deserves its own thread though.
--
edit:
What Healye says.
I gotta keep returning to a simple principle. Have belayers hold gradually increasing tension with different techniques and devices. Have them hold simulated falls of gradually increasing force. They will figure out what positions work best and they will understand why.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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Hey Rokjox,
That's the one. I pried the little metal piece off of the side, I think it was used as a clip in loop while you belay to keep the piece from falling down the rope? Not positive about that, but I didn't like the way it rubbed the rope when I was rapelling. Other that that it's a great all around piece, I've tried Grigri's and find them cumbersome clumbsy. I still have one for aid climbing and have soloed a bit with it.
Prod.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Blowing up a bathroom is a lot like a few other things, which I won't mention. The expectation is far grander than the reality. Be a short story in any case. A millisecond or two at best.
Seriously though, this thread is starting to get realistic.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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999 out of ever 1000 belay failures these days happens because someone 'locked off' the handle of a grigri. In fact, I would hazard a guess that around the globe, someone, somewhere is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri on the order of every 15 minutes 24 x 7.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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Jstan,
I think the excitement factor could be based on where the charge is located and the general direction that the energy will travel? But I get your point.
Prod.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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God! It worked. I got the thread onto a higher plane.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:24pm PT
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I actually threaded a Gri-Gir backwards and held a 20 footer, though it ended up being closer to 30 ft because of rope slippage, and I ended up with 2nd degree rope burns on my palm. But my lock off kept my friend off the deck. Don't remember if it was thumb up or down, however.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
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It seems to me that the 'pinch-and-slide' technique which maintains the strands parallel for some time is a holdout from the days of the Munter. That is the optimal braking position for that technique. I cringe whenever I see someone doing that with a tube device and it really shows a lack of understanding of its function.
People get really lazy and start just sliding their brake hand without holding the rope with the other. They always seem to be somewhat experienced climbers which shows that complacency can be more dangerous than ignorance.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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I don't know, I'd guess 'pinch and slide' is more likely from hip belaying.
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raymond phule
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:03pm PT
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"People get really lazy and start just sliding their brake hand without holding the rope with the other."
Is this really that bad? I would much rather climb with someone that do this compared to someone doing the following with a standard belay device.
"It seems to me that the 'pinch-and-slide' technique which maintains the strands parallel for some time"
I have often seen this method in the US. Is this the thumb pointing from the device method people talk about here?
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nevenneve
Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:22pm PT
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I was failed on my belay test at the gym the first time I used an actual belay device. My technique of locking off above my head to deflect the 250 lb. climber pulling my head into his ass was deemed inadequate despite the fact I successfully took the slack out of his devious jump into the test fall. I almost did drop the ---- when the employee looked me in the eye fifteen feet up and told me I failed to assume the lockoff position until lowering both of us. To this day I still feel it was some of the most conscientious belaying I've had to accomplish.
Monkey edit: Does anyone have one of the pictures or the story of rope burn down to the bone. I can't remember where I saw it but believe it was either from a near thing in Yos. or JT.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:40pm PT
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Jstan, Sooner or later no mater what the topic the conversaition eventualy turns to $hit;)
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 05:50pm PT
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The problem was use of the word "incorrect". If the title had been, "Most people's belaying is below average", we might have saved a lot of electrons.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 11, 2008 - 03:25am PT
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If people learned how to belay as shown below, as far as I'm concerned, they can hold the rope in their teeth.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Mar 11, 2008 - 03:57am PT
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Ciao DMT! We've got a stellar cave here, where the youngest and oldest 5.14's have been done. The belay technique is the same, but the preference for Cinches, GriGris, and old fashion coin devices pretty much rule. Getting to the roof is no problem, negotiating the stalagtites and ribs is hairy at times.
We use tethers or QD's to clip an overhanging spit to ease up on the belayer.
Personally, I'm not fond of sport climbing, but when it's raining the cave is always dry.
Cheers, Michael
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 11, 2008 - 11:32am PT
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Nice pictures...
Polish Graffiti Class?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 11, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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I some times change hands in mid-belay.
Still feels like I am belaying though.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 11, 2008 - 03:10pm PT
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TiG: Squamish belay class, 1977. A 100 kg rock hurtling from the sky definitely makes hip belayers pay attention.
Edit: Yes, they're my photos. Vancouver-area mountaineering clubs used to have a basic mountaineering program every spring, which included some rock climbing. All "experienced" climbers got to help, as volunteers. I wonder if anyone now does such realistic simulations, even given the changes to technique and equipment? Probably insurance companies would freak out if they found out about it.
I've often thought that subtlety is wasted on climbers. Introducing them early and repeatedly to the notion that they're doing something that is dangerous, and may kill them, isn't a bad thing IMHO.
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| Messages 1 - 78 of total 78 in this topic |
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