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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Mar 10, 2008 - 02:53am PT
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When belaying a leader, feeding rope out, it is more natural to belay with the thumb on the brake hand pointed towards the belay device. The brake hand tends to remain in the locked off position until it is time to feed some rope.
When top roping, taking rope in, it is more natural for the brake hand thumb to be pointed away from the belay device. This allows rope to be taken in quickly and smoothly. There is never significant strain on the belay in a top rope situation, so I don't see any problem.
When body belaying it is natural to have the thumb pointed towards the end of the rope and away from the belay device (your body). This is true whether taking rope in or letting it out. The braking position brings the hand across the body which would be very awkward with the thumb pointing the other way.
Having people practice taking falls or simulated falls of increasing force makes a lot more sense to me than getting them freaked out about which direction their thumb should be. Belayers can safely learn a lot about belay forces just by holding steadily increasing static force.
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marky
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:03am PT
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what PM wrote makes sense. Most "climbing" is done on TR, either at the gym or the crag. On TR, the thumb-away method is, in my view, unobjectionable. It will hold a fall no problem, at no harm to either climber or belayer.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Mar 10, 2008 - 04:49am PT
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I'm with Fonda on this one 100%! When we started the Club Arrampicata Napoli here in Italy, 8 out of 10 of the climbers belayed #1 incorrect hand position, #2 too much slack, or #3 in a half-daze. It was like pulling teeth to get everyone to do the "slack, swing, switch, slide" technique. Cheers, Michael
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 08:46am PT
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Gotta say I am with Rockjox on this one. caught pleanty of big falls and never dropped anyone except that one time I was takeing a picture and I didn't really drop him just let im go a bit farther for the photo;) Seriously it was a clean fall hitting nothing but air;)
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RRK
Trad climber
Talladega, Al
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Mar 10, 2008 - 09:43am PT
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I'm the one that launched the shot on Dirt he was referring to earlier. The look on his face was worth the trip down. I just can't catch the "right" way. Mainly I can't reel-in while you're on your way if my thumb's pointed in the "correct" position. If we're climbing on singles and I'm paying attention (no chit-chat or pretty girls in the immediate area) I can haul in a ton of line before the rope goes tight. I've tried and tried to learn the new way but it seems so awkward to me that I feel you're better off if I'm doing something that I'm confortable with. None of my partners has ever rejected my belay. Oh yeah - my catch hand locks off with the palm facing down and the rope crossing the back of my hand - inward and downward twist. That last snatch usually pulls back through and my hand is jammed up against the device. The free hand finds the device and covers it (either slides down the line from the snatch-in or slides back down your end if you fell without screaming first. When you're hanging there looking up at whatever just happened my hands are matched thumb-to-thumb at the device. I've caught a zillion drops like this and never lost one. (I can catch Dirt with just a firm grip on the rope) If it's wrong then I do not repent. I have a gri-gri thingie in case you're skeered
RRK
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 11:45am PT
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Rokjox has it 100%
I have caught a few and taken a few. I've had it 'round the hip and through a variety of metal. I've even had it in the ear before, but I have a lust for life. Only once did I drop someone. And that was funny for both of us. Actually, I didn't drop him, he set himself up AFTER a fall by grabbing the rope between me and the first point creating a detour in the rope path. After he had recovered from fall #1 he let go of the detoured rope and proceeded to drop out of site for fall #2. Hilarius!
As far as getting sucked in, with the amount of tape some folk are wearing for ANY type of climbing (is it really necessary to tape up for a face route?) I can't see anyone getting much of a rug burn.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Mar 10, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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Anybody notice how it is that the sport seems run by a bunch of sissy women on the rag?
Mmm. Obviously you don't hang out too much around women, on the rag or otherwise. All the gyms I've climbed at are run by dudes anyway.
People used to try and hip belay at the gym I'd climb at, but they'd get yelled at almost right away. It's the gym/sport mentality that doesn't translate into outdoor climbing reality. I've seen plenty of people get a hand burn on a "device belay" but maybe once on a hip belay; I think the hip belay had a pretty high fall factor too... 1.4 or so, where the device belays had less than that on average.
It really depends on how good your stance is while standing, though.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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"Thumb toward the device crowd, do you do anything different for sport climbing belays?"
Yes! I avoid them. hahaha.
Just kidding. Since I rarely climb sport, I belay as usual, which is the way I am most efficient. But, if I changed situations, where I was climbing sport more frequently, I would change if it seemed I couldn't get rope out quick enough for a smooth feed(as is suggested here).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Thumbs toward device. The belay is locked off naturally, by default, with hands and arms in their neutral positions. I caught a fall while asleep once, while climbing at night. Good habits add a lot of safety.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:16pm PT
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What about giving a sport belay on an overhanging route? Thumb toward the device crowd, do you do anything different for sport climbing belays?
Depends on the terrain. If they're trying to clear a big roof, then I might have a bit of a "sport loop" slack in the belay, in case they pop off (and I don't want them to get whacked into the roof). And I'd be ready for the "soft catch". Bit different than if I was at Stone Mountain in North Carolina, and my partner peeled off (always like to eyeball the belayer flight path there).
Its interesting. There's two gyms here in SLC and they teach the belay differently. One, palm up, the other, palm down. The palm up version (thumb pointed away) makes me super nervous. I usually (ahem) outweigh my belay partner a tad. If I fell when they're doin' that hand shuffle thing, with their palm up, my bet is they couldn't hold me and the rope would get pulled through their fingers.
Palm down, brake hand always in brake position. Gives me peace of mind. My main gym and outside partners do it that way and it seems to be pretty effective .
That said, the gym that teaches what I'd consider to be the better method, has had a bunch of close calls lately. At least one guy hit the floor a few weeks ago, and, another friend just about got dirted as well. Inattention might be the bigger player than hand position!
Anyhoo...
-Brian in SLC
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:23pm PT
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"People used to try and hip belay at the gym I'd climb at, but they'd get yelled at almost right away. "
I believe the reason for this can be stated simply enough, "The insurance policy says this is what we must do."
Like so many things that go on in a gym, it is not the real world of vertical rock, wind, ants, runout leaders, sun-baked ledges, frozen butt bags, wrong-nut-wrong-place-wrong-time, hand-too-big-sack-too-small, no tincture, too much chalk, where is that bolt? Damn it's chopped! Now what... guess I'll have to think for myself.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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There is another thing I believe this discussion is missing. Every situation is different. Suppose I always set myself up for a fall factor 2 where the direction of the force may start out pulling upward and then catastrophically downward. Then I do this on a route where the leader is moving out quickly or the weather is closing in and we are going to be freezing to death in another hour. Short roping will increase risk not lessen it. Suppose the leader is way out has finally gotten protection and now tries to clip. It is a big fall potential so death preparation is best? No way. Give the leader his best chance of clipping. If there is a big fall you will have a little time to readjust your belay. The smart thing? Have your worst case readjustment all planned out.
It takes as much skill and experience to be a good second as it takes to be a leader. You are busy scenario planning, preparing your prussick slings when they may be needed in a hurry, clipping the rope into a biner for a directional or extra friction if needed. When the pro got doubtful I have even extended my anchor a little to make the belay more dynamic as I get whipped around. You have to think about the forces that can develop should various parts of the system fail.
When people who know very little are out there climbing one is tempted to think there is one particular safest way to do things. NADA. The best thing to do? When climbing with an inexperienced person explain, as if you are just figuring it out for yourself, why you are doing what you are doing. They will get the idea very quickly. Better than even odds they will be thinking, "Damn. This climbing crap is even more interesting than I thought!"
Happie:
About 30 feet or so out on the right side of the shale point you should be able to dig up a short length of concrete curbing. It was just beyond the outhouse which R. Walling blew up forty years ago, if that is any help. It used to be hauled up into the trees there and dropped for belay practice. It may not look heavy but when we caught it on 40 feet of stiff goldline after a fall of eight to ten feet we got jerked up into the air and spun like a top.
People need to go through this experience.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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While this *may* be a good topic for rc.com, I have to agree with Ron completely. The palms-up (or thumbs-out, as Ron describes) method is simply not safe, IMO. I always use the palms-down belay method. Your hand is in the position to lock of fast, and properly, behind your hip. I think palms-up is just flat out dangerous. Not sure why so many gyms teach this method.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 10, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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Domingo,
I think the hip belay had a pretty high fall factor too... 1.4 or so....
Could you describe how high up from the belay the piece was, and how long the fall was, approximately (or how far above or below you the faller ended up)?
Thx
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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Anticipation is a big part of the belay gig. Even Carly Simon sung that song....(bad joke).
But, yeah. It always surprises me when I see bored-face belayers. I mean - occasionally you've got a snail who ain't sketched and ain't going to fall. And yes, that's boring! But otherwise - geez! I enjoy the sense of partnership I get when being "alive" as a belayer, and I know my partners appreciate it to. I know I sure as hell DON'T like it when my belayer is unobservant and generally lackadaisical.
JStan - I'll have Dick show me that spot next time we are headed past for trailwork(yeah....soon I will be back to kick-ass Sunday workouts. I get more tired from the trailwork than a day of climbing). He'll know the spot, no doubt?
Did Russ really blow up the outhouse????? I never heard this story - do tell!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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I like how we belayed in the day.
Shipley leads the hard ice pitch to a sloper ledge. There is no anchor to be found, Heh Heh, the fun starts.
He belays with hip belay and brings Stretch up.
Oh boy, now it's my turn, and the hanging icicle I'm climbing snaps off with me attached. Shipley starts to slide off the ledge while Stretch grabs him to keep us all from going to the base. (Remember there's no anchor)
Such good fun we had, and now like Roxjox said you need a Phd in this bullsh'it to even make it out the door.
BLAH .......
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
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There can't be anyone who has not wondered what happens when you blow up an outhouse. Pure imagination is not adequate to the task. I will leave it at that.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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It all depends on my stance, the anchor, the climber, etc. For the most part I belay with a 20 yeay old Selewa stitch plate that Tar gave me. About 1/2 and 1/2 with the thumb toward or away, but I've never had to catch anything near a factor 2 fall, most likely upwards of 1- 1.2? once or twice.
Here is how it goes most of the time. Grunt, grunt, grunt, get a piece in, clip, fumble, clip, "take" "Take" "TAKE", "phew that was hard, let me rest it out a bit". "Ok watch me close", "shit take". But I'm no bad ass that's for sure.
Prod.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
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I have to agree with Dingus that it is entirely dependent on the situation. This discussion is very similar to the figure-8 vs. bowline tie-in discussions. Either technique is entirely safe and effective in the hands of a competent climber. Where the argument is generally made for one way over the other is in [reliably] teaching new climbers. I personally don't happen to believe that just because a method might be the easiest way to teach and verify a student's behavior necessarily makes it the 'best' method. Rather it generally means it's 'best' and easiest on the instructor and their insurance company.
It frankly doesn't matter a wit whether you are thumb in or out if you fail to minimize the time window when the rope could potentially run on you or you can't establish and maintain a good lock-off. Everything else borders on irrelevant. What matters is competence, regardless of method. And events like getting you hand sucked into the device is also not about method, but rather incompetence, whether a momentary lull or an enduring trait.
I still hip belay a fair amount of the time and have caught endless falls with them including lots of hard falls. I've also belayed with about every type of device ever made and never experienced any noticeable 'slippage' of any kind with or without a device. Effective locking off essentially precludes it regardless of the belay method or device.
In general, I'd say a far bigger problem in belaying is the widespread trend these days to narrow the scope and definition of 'belaying' down to this one, albeit critical, element. This works fine for the limited scope experenced in a gym and or on many sport climbs, but is woefully inadequate as a prequisite for trad climbing. By and large, kids these days don't know about anchoring, stancing, bracing, establishing belays in the context of the overall rope system, proper tensioning and slack, understanding what an out-of-sight leader is doing simply by rythmn and feel, or - in many cases - that belaying is about the leader and not the belayer and their immediate trials, tribulations, and distractions.
'Thumb in' is really no improvement if it's 'thumb in' ass...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2008 - 03:40pm PT
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Rokjox - bummer they don't sell those spring stitches anymore. I still consider them the best device for teaching belaying to beginners.
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