Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
That old squeeze and pinch method is usless as tits on a boar hogg. That being said the propper belay possition is both hands busy changeing cloths, getting food or fiddeling with the camera.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
"They" refers to guides. The AMGA actualy endorsed the method for a number of years. I've heard they are shying away from this now. "Guides" in the gyms love to teach the technique. I see it used so much out here by climbers
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
"That old squeeze and pinch method is usless as tits on a boar hogg. That being said the propper belay possition is both hands busy changeing cloths, getting food or fiddeling with the camera. "
True, but you forgot opening beer.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
|
What about 'loading the bowl'?
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
proper thumb position is essential...
you have to be able to get it out of your ass at a moments notice.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
Ha ha ha....
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 07:27pm PT
|
Once again, the voice of experience!
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
I don't understand any of this. I just put the rope around my back and hold on with my left hand while I hold my cigarette with my right. Am I doing some thing wrong with the cigarette hand? I don't use the thumb on my cigarette hand, I gotta think about that. Now I'm all confused.
|
|
Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
|
|
my buddy steve bitches too much when i wake him up for slack.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
|
I bet the woodster holds his cig like a euro. LOL
EUROFORD!
What timing!
Second Edit;
Woody, joke. Not serious.
We all know you hold your cig with your LIPS while you lead.
Photo below looks OK for a bandito.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
So, I suppose with the thumb pointing away, this is wrong?
|
|
Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
|
|
Thumb goes on top of beer opener.
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
Low blow Piton, really looowwwww!
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Once upon a time, Rgold wrote about how to hold a serious fall with the palm up method, and I still think he is the only one who understands that aspect of palm up belaying. I honestly don't think 95% of palm up belayers would know what to do with a big fall, and I bet they do either get burned, let go, or get sucked into the device.
YOU don't have to be palm up or palm down specific to get sucked in, just too close. I have a friend who had that happen to him, in the late 80's or early 90's, and he never did it again, haha!
those toothed belay devices like atc xp and so on go a long way to making the belay job easier. with the smooth jawed devices I'd feel the pull in my hand, with the toothed ones I feel the pull more in my belay loop and harness.
Like most of you guys here I want that brake hand around the butt or hip and below the device and locked off on a big fall.
As for rope through the device, I once had a 235 pounder fall while i belayed at 135 pounds. he fell 20 feet, and snatched me off the ground against the anchor. I don't think any rope passed through the device, and I was locked off at the time. I was just glad I had a chance to get the guide hand onto the break side and out from in between the device and the anchor.
Yeah, this stuff goes better on rc.com, but st is now so much like rc.com, who cares any more? at least it's not a which rope is best thread, or a rope marking thread.
Crap, rock oopsie was fvcking with me so much, I was hoping they would be a girl, but no such luck. damned gay climbers.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
The braking position Dirt refers to, supposing the right hand to be the braking hand, is to wrap the right hand down to the left and part way around the left buttock if you are belaying with thumbs away from the device. This is a stronger position than bringing the right hand down to the right hip as you would if belaying with the thumb towards the device, and it also makes it easier to get the left hand onto the braking strand too for extra holding power.
Personally, I find this dilemma reaches a peak if you climb with double (i.e. half) ropes. The thumb-towards-the-device position is stronger (how much stronger?), but I find it much harder to manage two ropes effectively in this position. (And I really don't find it any harder to manage a single rope in the thumb-towards-the-device position.)
My solution, popular with almost no one else I know, is to use the TRE gadget, with allows you to belay in the natural thumb-away-from-the-device position and "pinch and slide" with no braking penalty as well as manage two ropes more easily.
I also think that when it comes to stopping hard falls, gloves may be as important as hand position.
(Definition: a "hard fall" is a fall that the belayer cannot stop without rope slipping through the belay device. My unscientific sense is that most climbers, including some with years of experience, have never caught a hard fall. The collective experience of this majority of course shapes the prevailing attitudes about belaying.)
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
Speaking(writing) of 'hard falls',' I know I've never caught one that put much of a shockload on my hand or belay device point, or any other part of the system.
The most I have ever had was the tug forward in conjunction with my not getting a stance to brace against.
I'd be interested to have any idea what a real f-er might feel like(edit: I'm not saying I want the experience personally! hahah). Anyone good with descriptive jargon?
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
That thumb-pointing-away and both hands up at head level is the standard belay procedure taught in a lot of gyms. I suppose it must work, cuz people aren't cratering and dying every day, but it sure seems like the least-safe method imaginable. Maybe it works well with a gri-gri?
I'm with rgold on using a TRE, which offers a combination of all the good features of an ATC and a gri-gri, with none of the negatives of either. Why it hasn't become hugely popular is baffling.
D
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
Hard-fall image.
If the rope starts passing through your hand, picture grabbing hold of a hot soldering iron. The burn will look and feel pretty much the same. (Which is why you just might let go, before you can help yourself.)
This is part of what Ron is getting at.
If you can anticipate such a fall, maybe standing on the rope below the break hand would add a nice additional measure of safety.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2008 - 09:38pm PT
|
The second time I caught Scott Fischer on the Minotaur he fell 20m passing me. I was lifted about 1m and the rope sheath was partially fused on its side for 2-3m where it had run/stretched over the hex that caught the fall. The 3/4" tube tied shoulder sling that connected rope to hex "melted" halfway, but held.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
I've caught twenty or so hard falls with a hip belay; I've never had to catch any with a belay device and haven't caught a hard fall myself in about 40 years now.
The reason for so many hard falls is that in the sixties it used to be considered mandatory to practice catching leader falls. The set-up we had put the belayer on a catwalk, the rope running from the belayer to a nearby but slighly higher sling and biner. The weight was hauled up past the sling an biner and fell well below the level of the catwalk; on average we had fall factors around 1.5 for these practices. We used old laid nylon climbing ropes, which may have started out stretchy but got stiff pretty fast.
The belay was a hip belay; we padded out waists and wore gloves. We of course knew we were about to catch a fall but there was no warning about when the weight would be released. The impact was impressive. The belayer was launched violently up against the anchor and was sometimes flipped upside down. Most of us dropped our first few falls.
I only had to do this once in real life, a factor-2 fall caused by a breaking hold. I was using a hip belay and was tied in pretty tight, but the impact drove me down to my knees. The anchor was a single good 3/4" angle in a horizontal crack. The rope ran over the edge of the belay ledge and the friction over that edge may have helped, because it seemed as if less rope slipped than in our practice sessions. We were also using a kernmantle climbing rope that hadn't been subjected to factor 1.5 falls day in and day out, and so might have absorbed more fall energy and left less to be soaked up by the belay.
The leader was unhurt and we continued on with our climb.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!