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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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you know folks, the world is a little different now. Used to be the distinctions between on-sight, rehearsed, lowering after falls and that sort of thing were really important because this defined the whole range of possibilities. Those distinctions are still meaningful, but in a world where lots of routes are clipping bolts or clipping pre-placed quickdraws, defining trad="groundup, placing protection on lead" is not too big a deal (and no one writing to this thread is making too big a deal out of it).
Peter Croft has climbed a bunch of things in the middle 5.13s on-sight over the years. JB - you probably have too.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"I think it is kinda lame to repeat a route in a style inferior to that of the first ascent...Personally, I wouldn't touch a route like the BY unless I was doing it ground-up."
Do you guys ever feel like you're climbing through a minefeild of stylistic constraints where any false move will blast you into the realm of lame climbs and lame climbers. Doesn't it just become impossible to leave the ground without upping your lameness?
Trad means whatever you want it to mean. There were traditions before ground up free climbing ruled the day that are now considered an inferior style. Sport climbing was firmly a tradition when Beth started to climb. Besides, I doubt she penned the press release herself.
I think it's motivating for the sisterhood 'n stuff that the hardest grade in Yosemite that I'm aware of (climbed in any style) just got ticked by a woman.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
atlanta
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the lady on-sited phoenix. that is pretty dang good in my book. I don't go much for these rehearsed climbs, but damm she is pushing some standards here. good for her.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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"I think it's motivating for the sisterhood 'n stuff that the hardest grade in Yosemite that I'm aware of (climbed in any style) just got ticked by a woman."
Yeah-- it's becoming a tradition.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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"I agree on B-Y. The whole point of that is to lead it ground up. But this is a whole different story from a technical and strength difficulty standpoint, and the two aren't really comparable in my mind."
I'd agree. On top of skill and strength, what separates them is balls, really. The BY takes huge cajones. projecting, redpointing things like phoenix, meltdown, etc. just don't. Different games, really.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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Good post Melissa.
There are lots of different games to play within climbing. This is a top achievement in one of those games.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Free climbing is style. Difficulty is relative to style. There always will be distinctions between styles - it's all part of this little game called free climbing. Not a big deal, it's just interesting to know.
Doing a 5.14c on top rope is impressive! Onsight flashing a 5.14c is even more impressive. Onsight free soloing it barefooted is...
I too am interested in finding out the hardest trad leads and the hardest trad onsight flashes. It just seems kind of hard to find that kind of info these days. Are people afraid of syle?
Edit: Oh yeah reagardless of style I think Beth's ascent is most impressive.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Kendal, English Lake District
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and,
A little history (for Americans)…
In the beginning, rock-climbing was a development of Alpinism so naturally the accepted style of climbing was ground-up. In the UK, cliffs are small, so the occasional crafty top-rope or abseil inspection is quite easy to rig up and was used on the quiet from quite early on. The fractured nature of the rock meant that most routes had some natural protection and so an anti-piton and then anti-bolt ethic arose to maintain the challenge. By the 1970s the supply of new routes was perceived as drying up and more obscure crags were developed. Frequently these had to be scraped out of the hillside (eg Goat Crag in Borrowdale). In case north American readers are not aware, it rains quite often in the UK and cliff vegetation is frequently prolific, so this required heroic gardening with crowbars and yard brushes. Not something that can be done ground-up. Additionally, the growth of sea-cliff climbing inverted usual practice: you start at the top and frequently abseil down your route to start. The effect of this was that abseil cleaning and inspection became widespread, which lead fairly rapidly to checking holds and the sneaky practicing of sections on the ab. rope. By the early 80s this kind of ‘cheating’ was widespread but frequently unacknowledged, a bit like the practice of ‘yo-yo’ ground-up ascents that were also popular at the time.
Sport climbing came along and changed the rules, ‘Cheating’ was out in the open and became codified. A certain amount practicing and pre-inspection was usual in the local traditional form, so the difference between “trad” climbing and sport climbing was perceived as being bolts. Trad = no bolts; sport = bolts. Battles raged between the bolters and non-bolters in the mid-80s but eventually everyone agreed to get along (mostly).
Head-pointing must be trad. as it doesn’t involve bolts.
A little history (for Brits)…
In the beginning, rock-climbing was a development of Alpinism so naturally the accepted style of climbing was ground-up. In the USA, cliffs are big, so top-rope or abseil inspection is usually damn hard to arrange and people generally didn’t bother. The un-fractured nature of the granite meant that many routes had no natural protection and so the use of bolts was permitted, if placed ground-up to maintain the challenge. In case our UK readers are not aware, those American cliffs are clean, blank and smooth and climbing without bolts is inconceivable. No-one has climbed El Cap without bolts (now there’s a challenge for some ethical Brit…) and no-one thought The Nose was anything less than an awesome achievement despite Warren Harding drilling over a 100 holes on the first ascent. By the 1970s ground-up climbing reached it’s zenith with fearsome routes climbed replete with epic tales of drilling from tiny stances. As standards rose, the routes got steeper and drilling ground-up got harder and harder. Ethics got stretched to permit drilling from hooks or other forms of aid, so long as it was ground-up. By the early 80s this kind of ‘cheating’ was widespread.
Sport climbing came along and changed the rules, ‘Cheating’ was out in the open and became codified. A certain amount of bolting was usual in the local traditional form, so the difference between “trad” climbing and sport climbing was perceived as being one of style. Trad = ground-up; sport = top-down preparation. Battles raged between the rap-bolters and ground-uppers in the mid-80s but eventually everyone agreed to get along (mostly).
Head-pointing can’t be trad. as it involves prior practice.
© duncan
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I understand the objective of trying to more clearly articulate the labels/meanings for different styles... but this point should be secondary and in no way interfere with clearly giving respect where respect is due for an outstanding achievement.
Giving an unqualified "yes, that is amazing that she climbed a 5.14n crack while placing gear" doesn't take anything away from the ground-up style in which you have done crazy shite before. Nobody ever became smaller for acknowledging greatness in others and allowing it to shine.
Saying "yes that was amazing but it wasn't trad style" seems like wrestling with a ghost of what your own achievements mean... it's more like a gentle rebuke and comparison against a 'higher' standard that you hold onto to feel more secure, rather than simple acclaim or acknowledgement of another's achievement.
Now feel free to judge me for judging someone else's judgements!
It's empty and meaningless, and it's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless.
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10b4me
climber
hanging by a thread
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is this over by Knob Hill?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mick, the buzzer goes off here (yeah, I see you didn't write this):
Head-pointing must be trad. as it doesn’t involve bolts.
I can think of a few trad routes that have bolts... For example Nexus out at the Pinnacles. Put up ground up, on sight, in stance. In other words, climbing from the bottom to the top, without weighting gear. About as traditional as you can get.
Unless you want to say that using bolts for pro negates a "tradtional" ascent. In that case, using anything metal (such as pitons), or rope for that matter, would be just as questionable.
"Trad" and Sport" are terms that have become overloaded in that they have several meanings, depending on the situation. But one thing we should agree on. Traditional climbing means starting at the bottom and going to the top, without weighting pro. That, I put forth, is the traditional mindset.
So is it possible to approach "sport climbs" with a traditional mindset? I often try to...
PS. Headpointing can't be trad because it involves starting at the top.
PSS. I think it's just left of Anti-Ego Crack
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Hardest onsight? Micheal Reardon on Romantic Warrior. No one will pull that off for years.
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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I have to strongly disagree with SOCIALBOLTER when he says that "anyone with small fingers who is climbing 5.12+ could redpoint this new testpiece with enough effort and years of attempts". This is far from the truth. Climbers like Tommy and Beth are literally 1 in a million and there is an insurmountable difference in difficulty between 5.12+ and 5.14c! For that matter there is a MASSIVE LEAP in technical difficulty between 5.14a and 5.14c! Once you start getting into the 5.13+ and harder range the difference between each letter grade and the progression between them is much more so then with the 5.11 and 5.12 grade. Reason being: your pushing closer and closer to the improbable and impossible, the defining line between being "in there" and "out of there" becomes smaller and smaller. With a barley overhanging 5.14c crack routes like this, my guess is that you do not just project it for a few years and then suddenly it becomes easy and you just "hike it". NO, NO, NO, this kind of climb is a FULL ON, FULL THROTTLE, THRASH FEST 5,000!
Just because you climb 5.12+ and decide to quit your job dedicating the next 4 years to trying to free a route like this DOES NOT mean your guarantied the send, trust me I know. I have been trying to move up to the next letter grade from .A to .B for over 8 years with no success.
INSPIRING and MOTIVATING SEND!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think that we can all get in touch with the stoke that comes from working on something really hard for a long time, trying and trying and finally succeeding. For me it is in the realm of what I do at work, managing, physics, whathaveyou, and going out and getting into that next grade, which happens to be in the 5.10's these days.
While I will never work 5.14, I can certainly relate with the hard work and determination to achieve success. That is a joy that we should all keep as a goal as we play this vertical game; man or woman, 5.8 or 5.15, NIAD or NI5Ds...
Here's to the primordial joy of climbing,
Berg Heil!
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thesiger
Trad climber
A desert kingdom
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k-man,
You're missing the point ... re-read duncan's thing Mick posted again.
"Trad" is like "football". You 'mericans have a game you call football; the Brits (and the rest of the world) play something else they call football. Both non-american definitions of these games are now in the ascendancy. Get used to it.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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So now I've got Brian upset as well.
I'll try one more time and then I'll just drop it.
You are correct, that climbers like Tommy and Beth are few and far between. Again I am not trying to belittle Beth's skills or FA redpoint at all. It's an amazing thing that she has done.
Would you feel better if I said someone with the proper finger size and low-end 5.13 crack skills could succeed on the route if they put the time in?
Now it sounds as though footwork, core (to resist the barndoor) and some other skills come into play as well. So, depending on what a given climber brought to the route skillwise it would take more or less time to succeed, but I still think they would if they committed to the route and put in the time.
You suggest that you've spent 8 years trying to gain a single letter grade and personally I find that difficult to believe. I get the feel from your post that you are climbing and attempting harder climbs and if that's the case I would challenge you to pick a route of your target grade and commit to regular and consistent time on the line. Maybe the redpoint is not worth the time for you, but if it really is only a letter grade harder than your hardest redpoint - YOU WILL SUCCEED ON IT given time.
I'm not just some NOOB spouting off here. I've been climbing for better than 30 years and have a long list of hard redpoints under my belt. On all of the hardest sends, there were many moves on each of them that seemed down right impossible the first times that I tried the routes. Over time and with regular climbing on the routes little subtle things started to "click" that made all the difference. Were those climbs easy when I finally redpointed them? Hell no, but having done the individual moves countless times prior I had a solid belief that they were possible for me and as I began to link longer pieces of the route together I was able to gain confidence on larger pieces of the bigger puzzle. Those redpoints always became a matter of desire and perseverance.
Again this opinion is not intended to downplay Beth's (or anyone else's) sends. Instead, I think it's the process that all high-end redpointers go through prior to succeeding on their hardest challenges. Hell, look at the time and progression of climbers like Sharma on his hardest routes. We're talking multiple seasons and their spoken descriptions of making tiny progressive steps over months of time before finally putting it all together. This is what hard redpoint climbing is all about.
Like everyone else here, I look forward to seeing photos of the route. It sounds like they will be impressive - Beth's redpoint certainly is!
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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louie, your forgetting web-spray abilities. Those rank pretty high i would think, or at least it has for me.
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Blight
Social climber
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"I too am interested in finding out the hardest trad leads and the hardest trad onsight flashes."
The british climber Dave Birkett onsighted a route called Fear of Failure at Dove Crag in England's Lake District.
It's graded E8 6c. It's been said that the technical grade would be french 7c+ which is about 5.13a or b I think. The route is also notably bold and dangerous hence the E8 grade.
As far as I know nobody's ever onsighted a british E9 route so Dave's effort may be the hardest onsight over here at least.
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Scout 2
Trad climber
Placerville
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Cheers Beth ! keep sending them!
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