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WallMan
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 7, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
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I am in the market for a new full sized cargo van. My sense is the decision comes down to ProMaster, Sprinter, or Transit. Do you own one of these vans? If yes I would love to hear about your experience with respect to the vehicle's reliability.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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piggyback question
which of these vans have an all-wheel drive or 4wd option? that's non-negotiable for me
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Van.html
No data on ProMasters yet.
Sprinters are a little under average long term quality.
Transits are above.
GMC is really good. It’s an old school body on frame truck. So you’ll spend more on fuel but could get one much cheaper. I’d do the math and figure out how long it would take in fuel savings to pay the difference for a euro style van.
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COT
climber
Door Number 3
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Most people don't like the look, but my wife and I love our 2012 Nissan NV2500. Bought it new for $27,500 and have put on 100k. No issues other than standard maintenance, oil, filter, tires. Rear wheel drive built on Nissan's Titan truck frame. Ours is fully loaded with all our crap and we get 15-16 city and 17-20 highway.
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the_dude
Mountain climber
anchorage, alaska
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I have. 2018 pro master 2500 159” wheel base. Love it! Front wheel drive, I’m 6’ and can stand. Transits are awesome, but they’re rear wheel drive. A no go for me simple because of that one fact.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Look at the rear axle of Promaster. Not off-road friendly. But cargo space/shape is wider and more desirable for a camper conversion, and I would have gotten that if I didn't care about off road.
I talked to Agile Offroad about doing a 4x4 conversion on the Ford Transit (when I had previously been looking at a Ford Econoline). They said the transit body was just not really set up well to do it. That was a couple of years ago, and they may have changed their tune to address market demand.
Sprinter does have stock 4x4 and I have used it in a few semi-rough places. Only engine option a few years ago was Diesel V6, with 3.92 Axle ratio. The engines with better gas mileage and 7 speeds are not available with 4x4. Maybe different in 2018 or onward. There is an ominous report about long-term Sprinter Diesel reliability after 100k miles... seems more of an issue for fleet managers than for individuals. But that report (which may be legit or may be a crazy dude with an axe to grind):
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fatal-flaw-mercedes-benz-sprinters-tom-robertson/
For camper vans with factory-supported 4x4, this is the only game in town.
Sprinter is a few inches too narrow for sleeping sideways if you are over 6 feet tall (maybe tough even for 5'10"). Many folks (probably me too) are putting lame bubble-pop-out windows to get a few more inches. Maybe $2500 to get those couple of inches.With stock wheels of the 4x4 option and not airing down, I did get stuck trying deep sand on a beach. Fine for normal BLM/USFS roads, and some funky old jeep roads on north rim of Grand Canyon. Before trying more serious offroad stuff or snow, I will get 255/85R16 tires (Cooper ST Maxx). Ground clearance is pretty glorious for a stock van, and I will get another 4" or so with some suspension improvements and the tire change. Lots of people raving on forums about how much better their vans handle on highways, slow speeds, and offroad with the after-market suspension mods (e.g. VanCompass or AgileOffroad).
Hollow frame seems uncomfortably thin and flimsy. I wanted to get the 3500 series for beefier frame, but that option is not available with 4x4 unless you get dually rear wheels that eat into your cargo space. Or you can get super-single rear wheels on the 3500 for beefier frame and carrying capacity but you give up the 4x4 option. Maybe by now they have resolved this too?
There are TONS of options for ordering a Sprinter. I spend a few months parsing through the options and inter-dependencies before custom ordering exactly what I wanted. If you just order off a lot or from someone, there are going to be tons of little things that you figure out later you wish you had. Only option I regret that I didn't get from factory is option N62 for second alternator (for being able to quickly charge a lithium house battery bank in the winter time when solar panels are buried in snow or too overcast for days).
If you want to optimize for hardest core off-road performance, might be better getting a 2wd econoline and paying for a custom conversion, or getting a Sprinter with the 7speed engine and then getting a Whitefeather conversion with locking diffs etc. But Sprinter is not really that sturdy of a vehicle for beating in serious offroad stuff.
There are folks who have modded Sprinters with 315/75R16 or 35/12.5/17 tires) using the VanCompass lift system and minor trimming of the wheel wells, etc:
https://vancompass.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions
Check this heavily customized mega-beast in iceland:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I've heard good things about Nissan NV2500. 5 yr 100k warrentee. Only one length and sucks gas, but long term dependable I've heard.
Sprinter just came out with gasoline version. Maybe cheaper and cheaper to work on.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Not what you're looking at necessarily but I helped convert and spent a couple years in a 2003 158" Sprinter and we got up plenty of fs roads that you would have thought were off limits. Just gunit and go.
Blizzaks make a HUGE difference even on the long wheel base RWD Sprinter and I would think a FWD Promaster with blizzaks would be as good as any 4wd in the snow.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Rumor has that next year the Transit will have an AWD option.
Right now we have a Chevy Express with AWD and it does really well in snow. Better than my 4X4 truck on icy roads.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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problem with the AWD express is that they are super hard to find used and seem to be over priced when used. $10.000 with 200K on it is not an option for me. Also once you buy the van you then have to find and buy the fiberglass high roof and do the mod. I would buy one in a second if I could find a no rust 135k or so for 6kish.... the Astro has 206K on it now and is a full time tool truck :( No camper no fun.... of course in an emgergency it could turn back into a camper in a few hours :)
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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not sure what this says about reliability but the sprinters, being mercedes and being diesel, were incredibly expensive to repair.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The emission systems, more specifically the EGR valve and cooler, on 2007+ Sprinters - the problems are definitely for real.
Thing is - they are in fact very inexpensive to maintain by yourself. The EGR valve can be cleaned in about an hour, gasket is like $3. No special tools. Maybe every other oil change. The cooler is more of a pain, maybe $25 in gaskets, another $30 in special tools, and 4-6 hours every 30-50k depending on how you drive.
That's it. Period. There are no other design issues with the emissions system. The remainder of the vehicle is extremely reliable compared to peers.
The real problems are stupid owners and greedy, incompetent repair shops.
The #1 owner mistake is using the wrong oil, thus destroying the catalytic and DPF. Very expensive. Otherwise these systems don't fail. Read The F'n Manual. RTFM.
#1 emissions repair is the EGR valve. Likely billions have been spent replacing this expensive but otherwise stupid simple and totally bomber valve - when all it likely needed was a few minutes labor to clean. The tech's are f'n lazy and just charge the owner for a new one - way more money in it.
The real money is in the EGR cooler. This thing is $600 bare if you shop around, your repair estimate to swap will likely be at least $4k - and it won't be just for the cooler body, it will be every sensor and valve in the neighborhood including the EGR - totaling in the neighborhood of the $8k estimate above. These fuking incompetent thieves should be shot.
The better fleet oriented repair shops have these coolers sitting in a pile, fresh out of the cleaning bath, waiting for the next van to come in. The swap will run about $600 and take those guys about an hour. They'll probably clean the EGR too - just because it's there.
Gotta be rich if you're going to be dumb with ALL of these vehicles, IMO.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I don’t get it. Merc has a ‘fair bit’ of experience building diesels. Why can’t they build a reliable one?
Doesn’t Dodge put a small Cummins in their pickups now? Why isn’t it in the Promaster?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Why can’t they build a reliable one? Post 2007, everyone is in the same boat with the same emissions problems.
Diesel produces soot when it burns and 2007+ laws basically require that soot to not leave the tailpipe. You can't compare reliability of a 2007+ to a 2006- diesel.
Things seem to improve 2010+ with DEF fluid, but I don't know enough about these systems to comment.
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GuapoVino
climber
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The sprinter can come from the factory with 4x4, but it's very expensive ($50k-$60k). I was also worried about the distance between dealers that can service it. They seem to be built tough, though, but have their quirks as all vehicles do. Check out a company called Van Compass that makes a lot of suspension kits and parts for them.
The Ford Transit can have a 4x4 added to it by a company that is authorized by Ford and is all covered under warranty, but that gets expensive. Other than that I don't know much about them.
I own a Ram Promaster. Its only front wheel drive but everyone I've talked to said it is great in the snow. I think it's a little weak off-road compared to the Sprinter but I bought mine used for $23K. I'm up to about 60k miles now and so far only problem was the trans went out at about 40k miles, which was replaced under warranty. That was probably my fault for try to drive it like a Jeep. I baby it now. There are two companies that make suspension kits for them. There's also a modification to the rear axle that people are starting to do that raises the center about 3". Doing that and adding a 3" spindle lift/drop from Off-Highway Van and a little bigger tire will give 6"-7" more clearance under the rear axle.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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JLP, my bro-in-law hasn’t had a lick of problems with his ‘15 or ‘16 GMC 2500. With the
millions of small diesels Merc sells in Europe I would expect them to be bullet proof.
Lewis Hamilton’s has been pretty reliable! 🤡
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dog forbid our posts are ever evaluated on some sort of monetary pertinence scale, but damn JLP, you've put ^^^ the dollar sign back into "heads up: hazards ahead!"
unless we make allowance for the medical/funeral expense category or maybe that "don't let your house burn down" book link ... but thank you for that.
i might have noticed other helpful stuff, but i'm a what have you done for me in the last couple hours kind'a guy
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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‘15 or ‘16 GMC 2500 That's a horrible data point because these issues don't come up in the first few years, and 2015 is at least 5 years into the DEF fluid technology. Compare year for year 2007 and on, full engine overall reliability, see what you find.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So you’re saying the Mercs are fine now?
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