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WallMan
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 7, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
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I am in the market for a new full sized cargo van. My sense is the decision comes down to ProMaster, Sprinter, or Transit. Do you own one of these vans? If yes I would love to hear about your experience with respect to the vehicle's reliability.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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piggyback question
which of these vans have an all-wheel drive or 4wd option? that's non-negotiable for me
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Van.html
No data on ProMasters yet.
Sprinters are a little under average long term quality.
Transits are above.
GMC is really good. It’s an old school body on frame truck. So you’ll spend more on fuel but could get one much cheaper. I’d do the math and figure out how long it would take in fuel savings to pay the difference for a euro style van.
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COT
climber
Door Number 3
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Most people don't like the look, but my wife and I love our 2012 Nissan NV2500. Bought it new for $27,500 and have put on 100k. No issues other than standard maintenance, oil, filter, tires. Rear wheel drive built on Nissan's Titan truck frame. Ours is fully loaded with all our crap and we get 15-16 city and 17-20 highway.
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the_dude
Mountain climber
anchorage, alaska
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I have. 2018 pro master 2500 159” wheel base. Love it! Front wheel drive, I’m 6’ and can stand. Transits are awesome, but they’re rear wheel drive. A no go for me simple because of that one fact.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Look at the rear axle of Promaster. Not off-road friendly. But cargo space/shape is wider and more desirable for a camper conversion, and I would have gotten that if I didn't care about off road.
I talked to Agile Offroad about doing a 4x4 conversion on the Ford Transit (when I had previously been looking at a Ford Econoline). They said the transit body was just not really set up well to do it. That was a couple of years ago, and they may have changed their tune to address market demand.
Sprinter does have stock 4x4 and I have used it in a few semi-rough places. Only engine option a few years ago was Diesel V6, with 3.92 Axle ratio. The engines with better gas mileage and 7 speeds are not available with 4x4. Maybe different in 2018 or onward. There is an ominous report about long-term Sprinter Diesel reliability after 100k miles... seems more of an issue for fleet managers than for individuals. But that report (which may be legit or may be a crazy dude with an axe to grind):
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fatal-flaw-mercedes-benz-sprinters-tom-robertson/
For camper vans with factory-supported 4x4, this is the only game in town.
Sprinter is a few inches too narrow for sleeping sideways if you are over 6 feet tall (maybe tough even for 5'10"). Many folks (probably me too) are putting lame bubble-pop-out windows to get a few more inches. Maybe $2500 to get those couple of inches.With stock wheels of the 4x4 option and not airing down, I did get stuck trying deep sand on a beach. Fine for normal BLM/USFS roads, and some funky old jeep roads on north rim of Grand Canyon. Before trying more serious offroad stuff or snow, I will get 255/85R16 tires (Cooper ST Maxx). Ground clearance is pretty glorious for a stock van, and I will get another 4" or so with some suspension improvements and the tire change. Lots of people raving on forums about how much better their vans handle on highways, slow speeds, and offroad with the after-market suspension mods (e.g. VanCompass or AgileOffroad).
Hollow frame seems uncomfortably thin and flimsy. I wanted to get the 3500 series for beefier frame, but that option is not available with 4x4 unless you get dually rear wheels that eat into your cargo space. Or you can get super-single rear wheels on the 3500 for beefier frame and carrying capacity but you give up the 4x4 option. Maybe by now they have resolved this too?
There are TONS of options for ordering a Sprinter. I spend a few months parsing through the options and inter-dependencies before custom ordering exactly what I wanted. If you just order off a lot or from someone, there are going to be tons of little things that you figure out later you wish you had. Only option I regret that I didn't get from factory is option N62 for second alternator (for being able to quickly charge a lithium house battery bank in the winter time when solar panels are buried in snow or too overcast for days).
If you want to optimize for hardest core off-road performance, might be better getting a 2wd econoline and paying for a custom conversion, or getting a Sprinter with the 7speed engine and then getting a Whitefeather conversion with locking diffs etc. But Sprinter is not really that sturdy of a vehicle for beating in serious offroad stuff.
There are folks who have modded Sprinters with 315/75R16 or 35/12.5/17 tires) using the VanCompass lift system and minor trimming of the wheel wells, etc:
https://vancompass.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions
Check this heavily customized mega-beast in iceland:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I've heard good things about Nissan NV2500. 5 yr 100k warrentee. Only one length and sucks gas, but long term dependable I've heard.
Sprinter just came out with gasoline version. Maybe cheaper and cheaper to work on.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Not what you're looking at necessarily but I helped convert and spent a couple years in a 2003 158" Sprinter and we got up plenty of fs roads that you would have thought were off limits. Just gunit and go.
Blizzaks make a HUGE difference even on the long wheel base RWD Sprinter and I would think a FWD Promaster with blizzaks would be as good as any 4wd in the snow.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Rumor has that next year the Transit will have an AWD option.
Right now we have a Chevy Express with AWD and it does really well in snow. Better than my 4X4 truck on icy roads.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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problem with the AWD express is that they are super hard to find used and seem to be over priced when used. $10.000 with 200K on it is not an option for me. Also once you buy the van you then have to find and buy the fiberglass high roof and do the mod. I would buy one in a second if I could find a no rust 135k or so for 6kish.... the Astro has 206K on it now and is a full time tool truck :( No camper no fun.... of course in an emgergency it could turn back into a camper in a few hours :)
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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not sure what this says about reliability but the sprinters, being mercedes and being diesel, were incredibly expensive to repair.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The emission systems, more specifically the EGR valve and cooler, on 2007+ Sprinters - the problems are definitely for real.
Thing is - they are in fact very inexpensive to maintain by yourself. The EGR valve can be cleaned in about an hour, gasket is like $3. No special tools. Maybe every other oil change. The cooler is more of a pain, maybe $25 in gaskets, another $30 in special tools, and 4-6 hours every 30-50k depending on how you drive.
That's it. Period. There are no other design issues with the emissions system. The remainder of the vehicle is extremely reliable compared to peers.
The real problems are stupid owners and greedy, incompetent repair shops.
The #1 owner mistake is using the wrong oil, thus destroying the catalytic and DPF. Very expensive. Otherwise these systems don't fail. Read The F'n Manual. RTFM.
#1 emissions repair is the EGR valve. Likely billions have been spent replacing this expensive but otherwise stupid simple and totally bomber valve - when all it likely needed was a few minutes labor to clean. The tech's are f'n lazy and just charge the owner for a new one - way more money in it.
The real money is in the EGR cooler. This thing is $600 bare if you shop around, your repair estimate to swap will likely be at least $4k - and it won't be just for the cooler body, it will be every sensor and valve in the neighborhood including the EGR - totaling in the neighborhood of the $8k estimate above. These fuking incompetent thieves should be shot.
The better fleet oriented repair shops have these coolers sitting in a pile, fresh out of the cleaning bath, waiting for the next van to come in. The swap will run about $600 and take those guys about an hour. They'll probably clean the EGR too - just because it's there.
Gotta be rich if you're going to be dumb with ALL of these vehicles, IMO.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I don’t get it. Merc has a ‘fair bit’ of experience building diesels. Why can’t they build a reliable one?
Doesn’t Dodge put a small Cummins in their pickups now? Why isn’t it in the Promaster?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Why can’t they build a reliable one? Post 2007, everyone is in the same boat with the same emissions problems.
Diesel produces soot when it burns and 2007+ laws basically require that soot to not leave the tailpipe. You can't compare reliability of a 2007+ to a 2006- diesel.
Things seem to improve 2010+ with DEF fluid, but I don't know enough about these systems to comment.
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GuapoVino
climber
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The sprinter can come from the factory with 4x4, but it's very expensive ($50k-$60k). I was also worried about the distance between dealers that can service it. They seem to be built tough, though, but have their quirks as all vehicles do. Check out a company called Van Compass that makes a lot of suspension kits and parts for them.
The Ford Transit can have a 4x4 added to it by a company that is authorized by Ford and is all covered under warranty, but that gets expensive. Other than that I don't know much about them.
I own a Ram Promaster. Its only front wheel drive but everyone I've talked to said it is great in the snow. I think it's a little weak off-road compared to the Sprinter but I bought mine used for $23K. I'm up to about 60k miles now and so far only problem was the trans went out at about 40k miles, which was replaced under warranty. That was probably my fault for try to drive it like a Jeep. I baby it now. There are two companies that make suspension kits for them. There's also a modification to the rear axle that people are starting to do that raises the center about 3". Doing that and adding a 3" spindle lift/drop from Off-Highway Van and a little bigger tire will give 6"-7" more clearance under the rear axle.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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JLP, my bro-in-law hasn’t had a lick of problems with his ‘15 or ‘16 GMC 2500. With the
millions of small diesels Merc sells in Europe I would expect them to be bullet proof.
Lewis Hamilton’s has been pretty reliable! 🤡
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dog forbid our posts are ever evaluated on some sort of monetary pertinence scale, but damn JLP, you've put ^^^ the dollar sign back into "heads up: hazards ahead!"
unless we make allowance for the medical/funeral expense category or maybe that "don't let your house burn down" book link ... but thank you for that.
i might have noticed other helpful stuff, but i'm a what have you done for me in the last couple hours kind'a guy
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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‘15 or ‘16 GMC 2500 That's a horrible data point because these issues don't come up in the first few years, and 2015 is at least 5 years into the DEF fluid technology. Compare year for year 2007 and on, full engine overall reliability, see what you find.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So you’re saying the Mercs are fine now?
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Man I had an Astro AWD that was just a basic utility truck that I made my home literally. The thing was awesome!!! If you can find one anywhere in good shape fly there and drive it back. I had to kiss mine goodby after having kids cause of need for seating.
Dumb move as I could have spent the money to tear it out and make it kid friendly. Live and learn.
It was like tradmans. Jealous.... Can't believe they stopped making them.
S....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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So you’re saying the Mercs are fine now? Did I ever say they weren't? All these modern diesel vehicles are mostly the same - big, complicated and potentially really expensive machines that require more attention to detail in maintenance than most owners and mechanics are capable of delivering. MB is fine, so are the other leaders.
Fiat is not in the same league. I'd put them at the dead bottom.
Can't believe they stopped making them. [Astrovan] They stopped making them because they landed on Consumer Report's "Worst 10" list for every year they were made - and they earned it. That a few freakish units are still on the road baffles me. Most of my friends who owned them had nothing but major issues, starting very early.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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206k on my Astro. I See 3 other Astros arround town daily. Saw a bunch of them in Colorado and Wyoming on my last two trips. My only problem with the Astro is it is too small for an indoor kitchen with a fridge. And is old enough and high miles to be worry free on long trips.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I doubt that was the reason. Heck jeeps make it on that list every year and they keep making them. Style changes and in the struggle to come up with the latest new thing lots of great rigs get mangled or the chop..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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When you drive a Porsche you notice other Porsches. jess sayin’... 😉
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ps. Proveing jlp wrong on the Astro is one reason I will buy a pro master if the right deal comes along. He had me talked out of it for awhile but my vani turned 200k and l am not needing any negativity. If the right promaster deal comes along its going to be a winner.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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When your ride has been out of production for 23 days short of 13 years it's a good sign when you see them still on the road.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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I bought a 2018 Ford Transit T-250 cargo van in July.
Previous vehicle was a Ford E-150 van, which did a great job over 19 years. Total non-routine maintenance: alternator, water pump & windshield washer hose. It was still running well at trade-in (275k miles) but I frequently haul a large trailer, and it really wasn't quite up to that.
For more than a year I'd been looking at an upgrade. Based on hearing a lot of good things about them, I kind of assumed I'd end up with a Sprinter - even at the price premium involved. But within the past 9 months 3 different friends had issues with their Sprinters, and all reported that the cost of repairs had run well into the painful range. The online reviews I found favored the Transit over the Promaster, and I found a pretty good buy on one this summer in Montana - so now I own it.
It's been flat-out excellent so far (9.5k miles). It has the 3.5l twin turbo gas engine that delivers impressive power and decent gas mileage (18 around town, over 20 highway). Diesel engine would do better, but adds substantial cost & weight, and the extra cost of the fuel eats up most of the gas mileage improvement.
I know some people really need it, but no way could I justify the weight, complexity and cost of 4wd. As before, I'll just go with winter tires.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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When your ride has been out of production for 23 days short of 13 years it's a good sign when you see them still on the road.
Crankloon logic! There is no end to the pieces of crap I see on the road! Hell, saw a DeLorean a week or two ago! Some crazy looking dood with long white hair was driving it!
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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small Cummins The new small 3 liter "Ecodiesel" in the Ram 1500 pickup truck is not a Cummins. In the Jeep Grand Cherokee it adds $4500 to the MSRP, so clearly they are not trying to sell many, despite raising the combined mpg rating from 20 to 24. The Cummins 6.7 liter diesel in the 2500 & 3500 pickup trucks: as with all of the heavy duty big 3, they are made for stump pulling torque and towing 15000 to 30000 lbs. A capability not needed by most who get a van, who just want cheap and/or higher mpg.
But the actual cargo load capacity of these vans is around 4000 lbs, higher than most full size pickup trucks.
The Ford F150 has a new 3.0 liter V-6 Powerstroke diesel option, but it's more powerful than the diesel I-5 in the Transit. In either, the Diesel is a $3900 upgrade, and not very available. In the 4x4 truck, it's rated 23mpg combined, compared to the 2.7 turbo gas which is rated (likely with a very light foot) 22mpg combined. Mileage in the van is unrated by EPA.
Similarly, Dodge Ram 1500 truck has the 3 liter "EcoDiesel" V6 upgrade for $4400, which is a different engine than the I-4 Fiat diesel that was used in the Promaster van, until now. I see Ram has now shelved that diesel for the Ram ProMaster. Slow sales since it was a $5000 upgrade compared to the gas V-6. Only the Transit and Sprinter still have a diesel option.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Diesel ... the extra cost of the fuel eats up most of the gas mileage improvement. That's what I've seen. Diesel costs less to refine, but they are charging more for it recently - almost penny for penny the additional BTU / mileage you'd expect over gasoline. The engines used to not be such an expensive upgrade. These costs seem to completely wipe out the mileage savings. If you have a lead foot and stomp on it everywhere you go, the diesel will win in power and efficiency. For normal driving, not so much.
The turbo Ford Transit - looks like an interesting option. It would be my choice if I were in the market. Ford seems to offer more options and creature comforts in the cab as well, the MB's are sort of stocky and commercial. It's easy to under rate the importance of driver comfort, but you'll probably be spending a lot of time in the driver's seat.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Ford Transit van maintainability data point:
Parking my van on a narrow street, I pulled in too close to a telephone pole stationed close to the curb, and managed to crack the turn signal lens that protrudes from the outside rearview mirror on the passenger side. While I was contemplating the damage, a passing truck took out the same lens on the driver-side mirror. So two lenses broken in two separate incidents about 45 seconds apart.
I got online and found several websites selling replacement lenses. 4 days later, both had arrived and I installed them - total cost was $28.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 10, 2018 - 01:26pm PT
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I've enjoyed this thread. Thanks everyone for all your info. I'm glad I decided to keep my 2006 Chevy Express van 11 years ago. The only problem I've ever had was with the transfer case for the AWD.....and that was owner error. Gotta keep the fluid changed out just like transmission fluid. Learned my lesson the hard/expensive way.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 10, 2018 - 05:28pm PT
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I would think a FWD Promaster with blizzaks would be as good as any 4wd in the snow.
Snow tires are hugely important. One of the most important things in snow driving is being able to stop and 4WD does for little for that but snow tires do. 4WD helps you from getting stuck and may help you maneuver your way out of an accident. I was in a line of traffic in a 4WD Toyota when somebody lost control and the two people in front of me hit them, but I was able to use 4WD to pull in the correct direction, off the side of the road, around the chain reaction, and back onto the road.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 10, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
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4wd gives you more potential points of power to maneuver, and the tires/chains provide the friction so that power can be translated to useful work instead of spinning wheels (or power removed from the wheel because it has no traction).
2wd with great tires/chains is way better than 4wd with crappy tires. Of course, 4wd with great tires/chains is even better.
and an extension of the topic... from what I've read (not practiced on my own yet), narrow tires are better in mud/snow when you want to cut through it and reach the ground below it for better traction. If it's deep sand or snow where there is no bottom to reach, then the wide tires floating on top is better.
and a locking differential (which Sprinter 4x4 does not have but some after-market 4x4 conversions do, and some 2wd vans do also have after-market lockers installed), will give you better traction in some situations where the tires have inconsistent resistance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential
Sprinters do have a feature called ASR (acceleration skid control) that is part of the Electronic Stability Program (ESP) - feature BB9. The idea is when you accelerate and a tire loses traction and starts spinning with no contact friction, the computer removes power to that wheel even if you are gunning the accelerator and the engine is revving. This is very helpful in most situations but backfires when going slow/stuck in some offroad/sand/snow conditions. I experienced this while being stuck in deep sand in the Sprinter in 4x4 Lo mode. I did figure out to disable this ASR feature (there is a switch on the driver's console), and it definitely helped get me out (after I dug out a bit). The wheels were now spinning rather than nothing happening, and I was able to get out when I made something for the tires to partially bite on to get out.
So one might say that disabling the ASR feature on the Sprinter is like a poor-man's locking differential? Close enough for wannabe forum talking and getting newb's like me unstuck after doing something stupid.
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Jamesthomsen
Social climber
Mammoth Lakes, California
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Dec 10, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
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We have a 2016 4x4 Sprinter and have almost 50,000 miles on it, including a lot of dirt road driving. No problems and we love it.
We have a diesel heater and diesel cooktop, so no propane, everything runs off the fuel tank.
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Jamesthomsen
Social climber
Mammoth Lakes, California
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Dec 10, 2018 - 09:07pm PT
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I did the conversion myself.....took awhile since we kept leaving on trips, but now I'm really happy with it. It fits the way we use it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2018 - 03:17am PT
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My real world experience is that 4x4 with crap tires still kicks 2wd for getting up hills and through rough spots. Crap tires suck for going down hills, steering and stopping. Traction control regardless of what name the manufacturer gives it sucks for getting up hills and through rough spots. Momentum is key for getting up hills and through rough spots but traction control kills your momentum..
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:19am PT
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We've got almost 170K miles on our Chevy Express and aside from the usual things needed for a rig with that many miles we've had no problems with dependability. AWD with good tires is great in snow and it's taken us to some pretty gnarly places.
I can't believe Chevy stopped making them in AWD. Every plumber here in Wyoming had one. Now they are getting 4x4 Sprinters to deal with all the snow we get here. There is a big hole in the line up of vans now with Sprinter being the only 4x4 option. I have a hard time spending that much for a vehicle plus the image of driving a 4x4 Sprinter is a bit hard for me to swallow.
I've done some cabinet build outs for Spinters and Promasters and they are nice rigs to turn in to campers. Certainly easier to build in than older Ford or Chevy vans with all the curves in them.. The Promaster sucks in deep snow though so it's out for me.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:10am PT
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Compared to a 4x4 Sprinter yeah,
but not compared to the rear wheel drive Transit or Sprinter. There was a version of this published some time ago vs a Sprinter, I think I recall.
No way that was staged, right? There's something different in the way the snow sticks to the tires in the different lanes.
Otherwise - who cares. It's RWD vs FWD - toss some weight in the back - like, say, a camping conversion. All these vans come unbalanced front - rear, you could make a dozen more videos showing potential problems either way.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:20am PT
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the tradesman that I have talked to say that once the vans are full of tools the transit does better than the promaster for getting up hills. Promaster has the obvious advantage of body style for a camper build but 4x4 is the trump card and price point is the economic reality that most folks have to deal with....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:48am PT
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not that simple. first of all this forum is the Only place where I have heard the promaster called a POS. heck someone told me the other day not to buy a promaster because the gas engine is a ford. all kinds of crap you can read on the interweb. pleanty of folks think fords are POS. Isa has certainly had loads of problems with her ford focus. My F150 broke in half and the tranny went on my Aerostart that also rusted out... It really comes down to what you can afford that comes closest to your needs. Promasters are certainly the most reasonably priced option for a luxury camper van.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:16am PT
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Search "Promaster reliability", or Ducato/Jumper/Relay/Boxer...
A common denominator the world over is that they're cheaply made - which becomes butt obvious when you see one in person and test drive it - compared to peers.
Pay more at the front end or at the back end - that's the game to try to win. Saying you'd choose one because it's the most affordable up front is pretty short sighted.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:40am PT
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so our options are promaster which you call a POS, transit = Found On Road Dead or sprinter which is completely out of our league... The transit is considerably more up front than the promaster and no gaurentee to be any better. heck all you have to do is look at a ford and they rust out.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 01:58pm PT
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3 - F150’s over 28 years and a combined total of maybe 5 days in the shop.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Dec 11, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
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Real world experience with a neighbors Promaster was that he had to park it all last winter because he couldn’t keep it on the icy road we live on here in Wyoming. Definitely if you don’t deal with icy roads it might be a better option. But what about that funky rear axle on dirt roads?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 11, 2018 - 04:15pm PT
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Sample of 1 reasoning is about as dumb as it gets.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:03pm PT
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JLP is always so positive.
I will end up with whatever van has the best deal at the time that I can swing.. I just keep my feelers out but seriously not inspired to get an older sprinter simply because by the time I can afford one it has super high miles and diesel is 50cents a gallon more than gas these days.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
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Curious if there are aftermarket locking differentials available for any of these RWD (rear wheel drive) vans?
A locking rear diff would make a huge improvement in traction. A selectable locker would be ideal. A flip of the switch and there is 100% of the available traction to both rear wheels.
That would be "end of discussion" about any perceived benefit to FWD (front wheel drive).
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:20pm PT
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Quote from Imajus10 linked article:
The Sprinter van comes in a great assortment of options for the everyday vandwelling dirtbag
Sorry, kids. If you're living in a van, you are, be effin' definition NOT a dirt bag. You have to get DIRT ON YOUR BAG--DUH! You are living on the edge financially. You do so because that's the only way you can figure out how to climb/ski/bike/surf more that just weekends. You do it for a while and it's fun, but then it starts to suck. And if you are still truly a dirt bag in your forties, well, you're kind of sad. Livin' the lux life in a rig that costs tens of thousands of bux don't cut no dirtbag "cred," whatever that is. I've dirtbagged a little. It was fun AND it sucked. Totally would have killed for a good van, and got a pop-top '78 Westy as soon as I could. Lots and lots of good memories. After ten years and two engines, I sold it. Sniff! Sounds like the Transit may be the way to go, but I dig 'em all.
BAd
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
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About 1971 I met a retired cowboy up Icicle Creek in Leavenworth. He was livin’ outta a ‘60 Pontiac Bonneville. He had his guittar, his pooch, and his dignity; he was at peace and happy as a clam. A bona fide dirtbag and a real joy to share a camp fire with for a couple of nights.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:26am PT
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Which is the most reliable? By reliable I mean coming from someone who has owned 3 Toyota Tacoma’s. Does that make sense?
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skitch
Gym climber
Bend Or
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Dec 12, 2018 - 08:44am PT
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Just 1 more data point on the promaster: My friends bought a brand new diesel a couple years ago (I believe it was the first year a diesel was available) and after multiple breakdowns in the middle of nowhere and have the catalytic converter replaced twice they are now getting there van purchased back by dodge. . . after getting a lawyer who gets a chunk of that buy back money. . .
When they told me the motor was made by FIAT I felt bad for them, but I know a touch more about cars then they do. . . I think they know a lot more now.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:35am PT
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I'm skeptical when someone says they are going through multiple catalytic converters. It means something else is wrong - did they fix that? In a post 2007 diesel, it might mean something as simple as using the wrong oil. Diesels burn oil, it's normal, and post 2007 you have to use a special oil that doesn't clog the emissions systems. That said, it could also mean the entire engine is a raging POS and the catalytic is a diaper collecting crap from a motor that will never work right.
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:42am PT
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JLP says:
Thing is - they are in fact very inexpensive to maintain by yourself. The EGR valve can be cleaned in about an hour, gasket is like $3. No special tools. Maybe every other oil change. The cooler is more of a pain, maybe $25 in gaskets, another $30 in special tools, and 4-6 hours every 30-50k depending on how you drive.
Thanks a million! I was kinda sweating this issue with my Sprinter. Started coughing occasionally around 20k, EGR warranty repair. Started coughing occasionally again around 32k, still warranty. Warranty will run out, so super rad to know of the diy fix. Thanks a million (literally!) again!
Having said that, I do love my Sprinter. I got the 4x4 after the silly bad performance of the standard drive. I don't think the standard drive even has limited slip? I literally got stuck in a flat field once, with a single rear tire spinning. With the 4x4, I've done really fun crawling and climbing in steep areas. I got the 3500 dually for the extra tow capacity. Very fun machine.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:12am PT
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Have fun figuring that one out and fixing it for good - maybe you can get a job in Fiat R&D.
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:19am PT
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@Juan Maderita: Looked into a locker with my previous sprinter, no luck. Might have changed by now.
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:31am PT
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I've had an '05 Sprinter with the 5 cyl 2.7 L for a bit over 10 years now and have put about 150K on it. I was an early sprinter adopter. Went from an AWD Astro that was great until about 225K miles and the tranny started getting wonky. It was totally bomber besides that. I lived in the Astro for about 4 years, and then the Sprinter for 5. I still spend more nights in the Sprinter each year than any other location but can't say I still live in it. With all the money I saved not paying rent during my 20's I was able to save up enough for a solid down payment on a house. When I bought the Sprinter I told myself I had to live in it for 5 years to make it worth the price and savings on rent. If I hadn't actually lived in it I think it would of been a waste of money to spend so much on a vehicle, especially given my age and financial situation.
Reliability wise I'd say the Sprinter has been solid over all. The biggest problems I've had so far are all pretty small but they did cause big headaches. The '03 to 07' are notorious for having issues with the turbo system. This has definitely been the biggest problem. Though what maybe the real biggest problem is finding a solid mechanic for these. I first learnt this after taking it in to a dealer for a weird braking issue. They had it on and off for week. Everytime i'd pick it up they'd say they fixed it, but the problem would come right back once I drove it. Eventually I believed them and left on a road trip and brakes started freaking out again in middle of no where WY. I said f'it I'm gonna figure this out myself. Took about 30 min on google to figure out I might just have a faulty brake light bulb. Replaced it and problem never came back.
Most recently I was having an issue with the turbo system. Took it to two different mechanics, both of which came highly recommended. First place said it was my EGR valve and injectors needed cleaning. Spent way too much money and the problem wasn't fixed at all (problem being erratic boost pressure) . Took it to a different shop. After testing everything and saying they couldn't figure out the exact problem they said I should replace the turbo, which cost $3k. Again I said f that and didn't think that was the problem. I'd mentioned to both places that I thought it was the intercooler given the symptoms and they assured me it wasn't after smoke testing it. Even placed a few phones calls to super well known sprinter mechanics explaining my symptoms. People told me to replace my hoses and then the turbo. Nope, instead I went to home depot and spent 200 bucks on tools and took the grill apart, took the intercooler out and found a bee's nest and crack underneath the nest. Took me all of an hour to figure out the problem (most of which was spent figuring out how to take the bumper off). Ordered a new intercooler for $250 and replaced it. Turbo boost pressure is back to normal and van runs great. I didn't even take auto shop class in high school. WTF?
Last story was a minor one but still. Got my oil changed at Dodge dealer. Jumped in the van and noticed the maintenance light hadn't been reset. Went back in to have it reset. Starts out with one mechanic trying to figure it out then he asks his buddy to help. 15 minutes later I am sitting there fairly concerned that their sprinter mechanic can't reset a simple light. Wonder if he even managed to put the right oil in? I give up and just google "reset sprinter maintenance light." Watch some crappy youtube video showing the sequence of key turns, door locks and door opening. Ask the mechanics if I could try. Works first time. Maybe they didn't play Nintendo growing up like me and never heard of cheat codes?? Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, select, start. And people say playing video games aren't good for you!
Those are just a couple of my experiences getting it "worked on". Seriously, biggest problem has been the mechanics not the van.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 12, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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Seriously, biggest problem has been the mechanics not the van. That is exactly the biggest problem - bringing a complex and expensive machine to a bunch of fuking savages.
Should I put in more work and get to root cause and probably make less money - am I even smart enough for that seeing as I barely made it out of high school - or should I just shotgun a pile of new parts in there, charge the holy jebus out of the customer and make way more money with way less time and effort? Hmmm, what to do...
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ClimberDave
Trad climber
The LBC, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
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Good thread!!
I have been looking for a van for sometime to use in a conversion spend a lot of time in the snow and wanted 4wd. Most of the places I see who do the conversions do them on Sprinters, a few are staring to show up using Transits, Looked at the 4wd Sprinters but for all the reasons mentioned above I have shy'ed away from them.
So that leaves Ford, have read online about AWD Transits but they wont be in the US in 2019. There are places that convert them to 4wd, but its not cheap, when I last looked the two main companies Quigley and Quadvan were charging $13k for the conversion. Quigley announced about a year ago they will now only convert a brand new Transit (so cant buy it and save up for the conversion) Or can buy a from a dealer that stocks converted Transists ( so can all be under the same loan)
So started to reconsider the cost of a 4wd Sprinter, have heard that they have made some improvements to the 4wd and it will have better clearance, tho not sure when it will hit the US.
Hmmmm
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 12, 2018 - 02:22pm PT
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i dunno, all but two of my rigs are gassers.
and hey, lighten up on T Hocking, he's got some excellent karma ridin' shotgun. gonna be fine. DT466. Simply put, these are the favorite engines for fleet managers
all across America because they run forever, are efficient, make good power for moving freight,
and can be rebuilt right in the chassis of the truck. The "pluggers" of the industrial world,
The DT466s have earned the respect of drivers and operators all over the world.
a good number of these hotshot vehicles
get surplussed by the gov't with 4x4.
in fact, none get kept forever.
pick one up for 8 to 12k or less, and put the change in the fuel kitty. if you can fill it on the card, park it
and heat up a couple dozen burritos at the circle k, we'll all be pretty much good to ride along, right?
i seen it done, y'all!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
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Hoobs, do those rigs have a walk-thru from the cab?
What’s the headroom in back?
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:14pm PT
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yup, on the pass-thru, usually spec'd that way.
after a day on the fire line headroom maybe not the first consideration.
floor to ceiling about like an ambulance, which means
some can stand, others not
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
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I was offered a school buss the other day. 150k on the odometer. I did not ask if it was long or short because I can't swallow the 8mpg. maybe 10hwy?? asking price was 5k
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 12, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
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One of the coolest home conversions I’ve ever seen was a short bus. Lots of windows, so much room and so much light, and you’re seated up high, all with that nostalgia of grade school. Problem is it was super visible. Of the 14 day limit during summer in Yosemite, this guy was tossed out, literally, on the morning of day 15.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 13, 2018 - 03:33am PT
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that's not a problem really. In the tetons we just moved from shadow mountain out to the Grovants. Different national forest. 2 weeks in one spot is pleanty. the problem is with a rig like that you can't afford to move it....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 13, 2018 - 08:47am PT
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the problem is with a rig like that you can't afford to move it....
Uh, no, you just have to change from Teton Brewing Co suds to Olde English or Colt 45.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 13, 2018 - 09:35am PT
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Only trouble with Airstreams is minimal storage.
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Rustie
climber
Coeur d\\\\\\\'Alene
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Dec 13, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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Quigley provide the official 4x4 conversions for Ford Vans......maintaining the Ford Warranty.
http://www.quigley4x4.com
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Slim Bob
Trad climber
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Jan 13, 2019 - 12:50pm PT
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Have had a 2017 promaster for a year, my wife and I consolidated/upgraded from her Astro and my truck and have been very happy with the choice. For just over 20k we got a almost new van with 23k miles on it and have put about that on it in a year. Not a single issue, consistently 20pmg with the gas v6, and no concerns with clearance even on some considerably rough roads from BC to the sierras. This is the only van that I could comfortably sleep width-wise in since I'm 6'1", which made our build our very spacious and comfortable.
Can't speak much for reliability just yet as a like new van ought to have no problems, but it makes me feel good that The postal service is picking them up as a new fleet vehicle.... don't think I will ever have trouble finding parts! Also the promaster has been rolling for decades around the world as the Fiat Ducati/Citroen Jumper... nothin but positive words about them!!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jan 13, 2019 - 01:15pm PT
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Nice build!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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is a, $11,000 2012 spirinter with 170k on it a can of worms???? It has some exhaust bypass thing installed that I assume is illegal and will make it hard to pass inspection????
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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It has some exhaust bypass thing installed that I assume is illegal and will make it hard to pass inspection???? I wouldn’t touch that thing. At the very least, it was owned by someone who can’t RTFM. Worst - yes - it would fail here in CO. They visually inspect all that stuff. If the DPF and/or CAT has been removed, you could probably buy the van again to repair it. Who knows what else an owner like this dik’d with or failed to do right. If he’s willing to cheat emissions, he’s probably willing to cheat you too.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
https://nutagain.org
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^^^ +1
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sounds pretty bogus. If it sounds too good to be true? That said a lot of guys ‘delete’ their heavy duty diesel pickups although probably not so many in CO or CA. Most of those that do ‘delete’ also get a ‘tune’ or a chip that reprograms the truck’s puter. The ‘tunes’ do work well and can be turned off for an inspection but it is a PITA. I rather doubt there is a chip available for Sprinters.
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A Essex
climber
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Sprinter loose a lot of value at 100k for emission related stuffs
diesels from the 90s and early 2000s really hold their value
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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You can get chips for Sprinters to mess with the emissions, but it's another level of DIY that takes a hacksaw to the underside. It's the first thing they look for at inspection. Saying any such thing "works" that isn't tested and qualified OEM is BS.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Can’t speak to the Sprinter chips but others actually work well - dyno tests don’t lie. My bro has a chip in his Polestar and he gets 70 more ponies and his mpg, when he behaves, is better than mine! 😡
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Urban myth and mansplaining shot to sh#t by someone that does it for a living...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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dyno tests don’t lie No they don't, but the OEM doesn't design to just the dyno, they also have numerous other pesky criteria - such as reliability and warranty claims, emissions laws, etc.
Could there be some guys out there that have done better than OEM with their programming? Maybe, but extremely unlikely.
Most often, IMO, changing one aspect nearly always has unintended consequences to the whole system that may not be visible to anyone outside the OEM.
The online hype on these chips is laughable - bunch of meatheads - for Sprinters in particular there's this Green Diesel guy over on the Sprinter forums who just wouldn't shut up for the first couple years - then maybe it was the 5-10 year mark - problems.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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JLP, I hear you which is why I don’t ‘chip’ - there ain’t no free lunch, right? However, the main reason is that if something unrelated occurred and they found out about the chip you know you’d be screwed on the warranty.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jlp. I am totally leary of any after market chip bs and would not buy a rig that has been messed with in that department. . All that asside what does 170k mean to a sprinter. Is it just like any other rig meaning that all the front end steering components are wasted, suspension toast, tyranny is tired and the electronics are starting to act up...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I think a high mileage Sprinter is solid, unless it's a trashed contractor's rig or some-such. I'd first quiz the owner on the oil they used. It's special. Beyond that, if you're not comfortable cleaning the EGR valve and especially the cooler, ownership is going to be very expensive. The post 2006 emissions is the crux - with all diesel. I don't think buying a 2006- is the answer either, a vehicle that old is a decaying relic at this point.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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tyranny is tired
Agreed, but let’s keep politics out of this, m’kay?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It’s easy to get the blinders on and focus on newer style euro vans with better mpg. But do your due diligence and compare to say a Chevy Express. Chevy would likely be less money to purchase, likely better long term reliability, cheaper to maintain and repair. You’d have to add pay more for fuel and maybe a high top conversion. Calculate total cost of ownership over 5 or 10 years including what it would sell for at the end and compare.
If you want the best off road capability and a good value I’d say go with a 4x4 pickup and camper. Drawbacks vs a van are worse handling, worse mpg, have to go outside to get in back. But more versatile, take off the camper and use as a regular car, pull a trailer. I love my camper with its 3 way fridge, full kitchen, bathroom, queen size bed, etc. And easy to work on or get fixed almost anywhere.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Reilly as usual gets the +10 for the laugh factor in the above post! :)
I'm the original owner of a 2006 Chevy Express window van. The only problem I've ever had is that we didn't read the owners manual so blew out the transfer case part of the AWD. It is a must to have all four tires with matching tread depth. That was around 2010 and had it replaced. We just celebrated it's 200,000 birthday a week ago. Weak points....door latches break. I had an Astro van before this and same problem. OK, Chevrolet, why can't you do doors and the simple things well also?
I have no built in's. Just keep my camping gear loaded in the back, ready to take off when fun presents. I sleep in it and can even stick my kayak inside. This car has been a blessing.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Chevy Express. If you could stand up in one, Sprinters probably wouldn't be selling as well.
Fiat is a POS, not even worth discussion.
Ford is the only competition - but since there is not much cost advantage new and no considerable used market yet - the Sprinter wins - for now.
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Quasimodo
Trad climber
CA
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I am surprised no one has bought or considered the Nissan NV vans.
Not the prettiest vehicle, but Japanese vehicles usually have less maintenance and mechanical repairs than than German or American vehicles. I had a 1987 Nissan Pathfinder with 186,000 miles with the original clutch and shocks. I had to install a new water pump at 160,000 miles. Otherwise, the Nissan at 186,000 ran like new when I sold it.
Curious if anyone has bought a Nissan NV. Reliability is my most important criteria when purchasing a vehicle.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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My astro is almost 217k now despite JLP declaring it is a POS. It is a full time tool truck. all the door latches and the power locks are effed up. I live on a really rough road so my suspension and steering parts are in the middle of a rehab session. More part just arrived today... looking to built a weekend and roadtrip camper. I am actually seeing quite a few Ford Transits in my searches. Also seeing that the used sprinter prices are dropping . Likely as a result of competition from the fords. Seems like the days of getting 20k for your high mileage sprinter are over... I would be open to an E series, Express or old style Ram van if they were dirt cheap and had the high top.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Also looking at the Nissan and might be open to one at the right price with the V6 but they seem to be rare. Also have not been inside the Nissan with a tape measure yet...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Someone in the airport parking lot last night next to me had one, with a For Sale sign on it. It was a 4x4 Nissan passenger van. Lifted a little with a winch bumper on the front and a large off-road rack on the top. Said it seated 12, and it certainly looked plenty large. $47K...didn't say how many miles.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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In the beginning of this thread someone said they had a Nissan NV.
Not all Nissans are good but the NV is excellent. It's based on the Titan full size pickup which is also very good.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Nissan.html
Unfortunately 4X4 isn't a factory option. People do conversions with factory Titan parts.
It's a body on frame truck, so rugged and probably good for rough roads, but not as good mpg/handling as a unibody van.
Yeah it's fugly, but I could live with it. Actually I just did an image search of Nissan NV camper and when they have beefy tires and a grill guard they look pretty good.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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But they’re a good starting point.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Go big or stay home!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Reilly....Nice supersize....Wife boot you out of the Monrovia crib ?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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You are a prescient animal, RJ. I am off, like Oscar Wilde I too believe that
“When good Americans die they go to Paris.”
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I never get why they stop making them in AWD. suddenly the only option for a plumber or electrician who needed awd was sprinter... Ford transit is going to be AWD next year but likely pricey as a sprinter.
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