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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Those cliffs are there, skirts up, begging for it. We can't resist.
"Bad for them?" Well, if THEY thought it was, would they be begging for it?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Are cities bad for the environment?
Yes. Let's get rid of them...
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Trump
climber
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I remember my botany roommate from freshman year going on a campaign to eliminate pedestrian impact (students carving dirt trails across the grass lawns in their repeated attempts to get to class 6 seconds earlier), and he went around campus posting signs asking people to stay on the concrete sidewalks, and educating fellow students about the perils of pedestrian impact.
Other folks got all worked up over solving the Riemann hypothesis.
If lichen on cliffs is your thing, cool.
I think a lot of the reaction here is around the (human use of the) word “bad,” which maybe has its purview in a different field than biology? Ultimately though, maybe not.
Biology might also have some things to say about our characterizing other people as knee-jerk, silly, self-interested, excessive pride, irrelevant, etc. I’ll be interested to see what biology has to say about us humans and our behaviors, and if, when it says it, we’ll still only believe it about other people.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Entropy - Too, is
"to much of everything is *just enough"
(*Never Enough?)
"Bad" is what happens?
then sure, the best example is the Gunks. Beyond that the holds at the Gunks are prone to polishing, soil compaction and tree abuse along with reduction of climbers interest, comfort & ability to spread out, that has grown exponentially since the placement of bolted anchors,clearly shows what 19 years of concentrated use gets.
The coalition of the interested, that is open to every one, agreed to some changes before or coinciding with closures or access issues, which has reduced crag wear in certain areas, high lighting the obvious effects of heavy use at some areas in comparison to the re-growth of flora& funa at restricted use areas, so the effect was magnified.
The conditions were effected by a few different variables. but the cliff, its crisp wild feel has changed.
Then there is the overwhelmingly accepted new definition of climbing that has, in just 20 short years, the gym generation ,changed the outward gloss of climbing, weather the intrinsic nature has changed is not for me to comment on. , .
and that is beyond
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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I agree the trampling of vegetation at the base is an issue.
And an even bigger impact is the erosive trails leading to the base.
Often the effect of climber trails is to gradually create a growing erosive gutter that rapidly scours and drains the crag after rainfall. This means the whole area will be more vulnerable to drought (Central Holcomb pinnacles for example, - an area where the USFS refuses to allow organized erosion control)
These "gutter" trails are attractive to many because the erosion makes them a highly visible blight. For example, on the approach to the north side of Tahquitz, if you fork off the trail and go right to the talus below the NE recess, you will leave no trace because you are mostly walking on granite talus blocks. But many like to take the dirt trails going up through the woods, because the erosion makes them visible.
In the high mountains above treeline, the descent from most popular peaks is just a mess of steep climber braids.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Having personally taken a pristine area and developed and promoted unleashing the hoards, I'd have to say, yes.
As ourdoor users I think we are still in the "shoot all animals on sight" phase that were were in 200 years ago. That we don't need to worry about our impact on lichen's and weeds around the rocks.
But, climbers, hikers, and all outdoor users need to up the game.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 16, 2018 - 03:03pm PT
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The most impactful thing in rock climbing is a guidebook.
No.
Road building.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Dec 16, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
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Breeding...
Stop it already.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 16, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
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The second most impactful thing in rock climbing is Dam building.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 16, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
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This is the kind of nonsense that makes scientists and liberals look like loonies. Almost everything else we do is worse for the cliffs, climate change, logging, mining. The Earth isn't going to give a rats ass about what happened to a few rock faces that got climbed on out of the many that never even felt human eyes - not when the poles are melting and we're not doing enough to stop it. The Sierra Club should stick to what they do best instead of eating their own. This is a clear case of not seeing the forest for the trees - LOL. Study lichen to show what climate change does to it. To study what climbers do to it is beyond absurd.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 16, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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Also pretty impactful are beaurocrats in charge of climbing areas.
My favorite examples include the ranger with a welder who burned down Smith Rock during a drought. He was welding a fee box.
Also on my list are the City of Rocks rangers who, after lecturing a group of climbers on the massive historic destruction caused by bolt replacement, assigned me a campsite where I could smell the dynamite and rock dust from a boulder they blew up that afternoon so the Winnebagos could get to the end of the road.
The Mohonk doings over the last 100 years aren’t far behind on my list.
And Mother Nature is perfectly capable of screwing up climbing areas all on her own. She is pretty much indifferent to our needs.
At the rate the valley is exfoliating due to natural causes, no current climbs will exist in a thousand years. The place has been falling down since before recorded history. And many of the recent rockfalls are in places nobody climbs. Future generation will get to put up brand new lines. It has already happened on half dome.
The pin scars on Serenity won’t mean crap compared to what the waterfalls on either side will do to that area.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2018 - 05:23pm PT
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Is Rock Climbing Bad For Cliffs
Yep .... so stay at home to drool on the internet don't go out the door except to the mall to drool where you'll be shot by an active shooter.
Better yet get a lobotomy ....
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Dec 16, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
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In reality an interesting question.
I remember reading about Honnold's solo of El Sendero Luminoso in 2014 and some sidelights of the endeavor. Alex was perplexed and grapples with the environmental impact of his own climbing career and specifically about the carbon footprint of flying down to Mexico to partake in this solo.
Alex and Cedar Wright spent several days "cleaning" the route of dirt and cactus. I would imagine that included a significant assortment of plants and considering the geophysical location quite possibly a number of those were quite old and rare? Honnold makes no reference to this elimination beyond the fact they interfered with his solo attempt.
So in retrospect I believe there should be some concern about the ecology of cliffs, there ecosystem and the impact from climbing. A little self awareness goes a long way toward preventing the "man" from eventually setting up restrictions on climbers when they as a group could have foreseen this and prevented it.
I have not read this book, as it is rather expensive, but it just might enlighten those of us who are genuinely concerned.
But you are a stubborn breed so have at it.
Whatever.....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 17, 2018 - 08:26am PT
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Yes, rock climbing has bad consequences for things that live on cliffs. The authors of the book Guido posted are based very near Rattlesnake Point which is near Toronto and over the years has seen about as much impact as climbers can possibly deliver to one small outcrop of limestone. However, Rattlesnake Point is still open for climbing and a balance is attempted between use and protection.
Climbers and the authorities which manage climbing areas should work together to learn about and address the concerns both groups may have.
Here are cliffs on the other side of Canada.
An ecological assessment was done in 2003. It was limited in scope and time and goes into the problems of doing such assessments.
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r17752/MtMaxwellTEMFinalReport_1268331123663_1545bc1f2a039994f1597f243264033f835c0a0fe7db98bfab4f25a5631ce301.pdf
Climbing was not singled out as a threat to the habitat, but the report had this:
A plan for the park was published in 2012. I talked with a ranger and it is still only a plan, not a body of policies, rules, and regulations. The plan says that rock climbing should not be allowed, mainly to protect peregrine falcon nests.
There are also several rare and threatened plants mentioned in the 2003 report that grow where climbers are likely to go.
We climbers should be ready to participate in planning. It would be nice to have arguments for the positive impacts of climbing. So far all I can think of is trash removal from the ledges below the lookouts, which would make them much nicer for the climbers but might not impress the folks worried about falcons or Lomatium grayi.
In the particular case that concerns me, climbing is protected mainly by a very modest budget devoted toward any kind of signage or enforcement. It seems likely we will get to continue to use our own judgement about what to do and not do. If, for example, the attempts to get people to keep their dogs on leash in the other Provincial Park below the cliffs are indicative.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 17, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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Ed said: "They are talking about understanding the cliffs, and their ecosystems."
I'd feel much better about it if they had started with the massive D9 bulldoze tracks and tunnels they made on the roads. Research to include oil dripping off of hot manifolds and killing amphibians ecosystem. How massively long sterile strips of used rubber on roads breaks up wildlife migration patterns and their ecosystem. How temperature increases on black pavement negatively affect various flora, fauna and their ecosystems, including all the lichens in the vicinity. What effect cutting down 1000 trees in Yosemite would have on any potential ecosystem. Frantic work continues as they initiate new improved roads. They never did that study and still have not even started that "research" Ed. I wonder why?
Re the articles note: " “Anecdotally, I do think that climbers have an impact on vegetation,”" Of course we do. Like a hiking trail anywhere does, except with much less impact. Yes, a track a few feet wide in a few vertical locations is a tiny bit of any cliff. If you are a climber looking to get your masters degree, it something "cool" and interesting to hang your hat on. But significantly overinflating a tiny thing only makes people resistant elsewhere to real big issues with real facts like Dan notes above.
Worth saying twice: "This is the kind of nonsense that makes scientists and liberals look like loonies. Almost everything else we do is worse for the cliffs, climate change, logging, mining. The Earth isn't going to give a rats ass about what happened to a few rock faces that got climbed on out of the many that never even felt human eyes - not when the poles are melting and we're not doing enough to stop it. The Sierra Club should stick to what they do best instead of eating their own. This is a clear case of not seeing the forest for the trees - LOL. Study lichen to show what climate change does to it. To study what climbers do to it is beyond absurd. "
In wet areas, often within a month or even weeks of climbers not climbing a line, the wilderness is back. Our impact is minor and transitory.
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