Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 76 of total 76 in this topic |
johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
|
Like any outdoor activity, climbing has an impact on the environment. Pretty minimal in the big picture of what humans do to the earth.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
|
I’ll take the long view...millennia from now, when we’re no longer around, water will still be having it's way with cliffs.
An interesting mathematical model predicts that the human race has a 95% probability of being extinct in 7,800,000 years...I’m betting it will come sooner.
|
|
Trump
climber
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
|
Routes that people climb have less vegetation than routes that people don’t climb. K, sounds reasonable to me.
What does the cliff prefer? Does it prefer to have people climbing it, or have lichen growing on it?
That’s a tough one. I’m not gonna ascribe a moral good/bad association to that. But if the cliffs want to do that, I’m all ears.
What do people prefer? Sounds like some of them prefer to climb the cliff, and some of them prefer to have lichen growing on the cliff.
And some of them prefer that some other of them do it the way they prefer. Nothing new there.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 03:04pm PT
|
Be the cliff! - Baba Ram Dass
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 03:04pm PT
|
I read the article, which is mis-titled & mis-leading. It should be titled "IS ROCK CLIMBING BAD FOR PLANTS ON CLIFFS?"
Plants break cliffs down, climbers often kill those plants on purpose or by accident, & that is what the jerk who wrote the stupid story is concerned about.
|
|
7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 04:23pm PT
|
Protected white cedars are prying apart the Niagara Escarpment; given enough time they'll turn the whole thing into gravel.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 04:26pm PT
|
It's unfortunate that the Sierra Club is now bad for cliffs because their policy of taking you off of anything you like, eventually meaning that you won't care about it anymore.
I like the way you think. And it's future generations who really won't give a crap since they've never been out there in the first place.
If Sierra Club has their way we'll all live in urban hives with self driving cars that won't go outside of a certain boundary. Of course when it comes to access, there will always be a top 1%.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
|
Not very much. But more so if you consider future Climbers.
so please stop climbing so that future climbers can stop climbing so that future climbers can climb?
Is there something more first world problem than a first world problem?
Cuz that's about where this question lands
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
|
Would y'all like some more-a?
Right here on the flora? - Frank Zappa
Ironic, for us who made sure to minimize our individual impact when we passed thru the wilderness, only to ‘collectively’ messed things up anyway.
I think the lichens shall prevail after we are all gone...whether you lichen it or not.
 ec
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
|
The evil practice of climbing! The rock is going to get it's day of vindication! Unwanted exfoliating advances exposed!
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
|
Ironic that an institution that has played a central role in the American history of rock climbing is now printing articles about how climbing is ‘not good for the rock’.
I wonder how many of the current Sierra Club Board of Directors actually climb anything these days?
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
|
One day the cliffs will have eroded to nothing.
New ones are built.
Cliff damage is the least of our worries
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
|
I don’t know, in general, about the cliffs themselves. Although there is reason to believe that climbing / slacklining was bad for the formation formerly known as the Cobra. There are other examples as well. But I’m sure it’s harder on the plants.
Note in the article they mention a ”species of lichen”. Lichen is a symbiosis of algae and fungi. It’s two ( or more) things. One section of lichen can’t be “ a Species” or it’s not a lichen, it’s one of the constituent organisms.
Is this article poorly written, and the author didn’t know any better?
Or is it bad science?
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
|
Note in the article they mention a ”species of lichen”. Lichen is a symbiosis of algae and fungi. It’s two ( or more) things. One section of lichen can’t be “ a Species” or it’s not a lichen, it’s one of the constituent organisms.
Only half correct. Lichens are symbiosis of 2, sometimes 3 different organisms, an algae, a fungus, and sometimes a cyanobacteria. They are classified into species by humans. So yes there are species of lichens.
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
|
If living things like falcons and trees are worthy of conservation then why wouldn't lichens and plants be worthy of conservation?
Humans impact the environment. Why not increase our awareness and knowledge of the environment and the impacts? Then we can make informed choices.
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
|
Because we are here to have dominion over the beasts and the plants according to the word of Yahweh.
Then of course we die off in the next great extinction after which your precious lichens can eat all the rocks they want.
In the meantime, sit safely upon your couch, stream some Netflix onto your 4k Samsung, ask Alexa to order some pizza and bitch about the rest of us on the internet.
Now that I've gotten my old man get of my lawn diatribe out of the way, I will ask in all seriousness - what makes you think that a viral species such as ourselves with the singular talent of screwing up everything in our reach has a chance in hell of repairing the planet?
I can't get 10 people to agree where to go for lunch much less ask them to coordinate some herculean effort to save the Earth.
Face it - we are in the Caligula stage of the Roman Empire soon to be followed by the rapid decline into yet another one of history's failed experiments at civilization.
Meanwhile, the lichen will devour the faux rock work on your McMansion, weeds will push up though your cobblestone drive, molds and mildews will decay your walls and woodwork and in a century not one sign of your presence will exist outside of plastic and a few fossilized iPhones.
Earth perseveres in spite of us.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
|
So, Aunty x, a ‘Lu chen species’, could have as part of its make up either of n number of alagal / Cyanobacteria species, and still be the same lichen species as long as the same fungus is among us, so to speak? How does that make sense?
That sounds like the answer to my questions is b) bad science....
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 09:57pm PT
|
Jody! I am back from my Dolomites & Tuscany vacation break, from calling you out on your BS posts.
I doubt that you missed me, at all, but your schist posts like this one will now be mocked.
Jody states: Exactly. Which is why we don't affect climate change.
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 10:04pm PT
|
I am confused by Jody's lack of connection to logic, reality, basic observations like pavement = solar collector = warmer air in a valley full of sunny pavement, but, hell, let's get back to reasonable and sane and non-trolly stuff like "just how much digging with a piton hammer to reach a placement constitutes chipping?" or "do hunters of psychoactive fragile-cliff-community lichens make the cliff/world better or worse?" or "is my bail anchor an asset or a damage to the loose pile of tuff (in a cultural sense does it encourage dummies or destroy the ambiance or rather, inspire a repeat/cleaning of what might actually be a fun wide choss route in the cool 11,900' aire?)"
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 10:53pm PT
|
Yer all damn st00pid hypocrite brainwashed Americans that can't even save yourselves masquerading yourselves as morally right .......
|
|
i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 11:45pm PT
|
there you go again bitching about the country whilst you suck from it's teat.
|
|
i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2018 - 11:47pm PT
|
Exactly. Which is why the earth will still be here after we no longer affect the climate. FIFY
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 05:21am PT
|
Ironic that an institution that has played a central role in the American history of rock climbing is now printing articles about how climbing is ‘not good for the rock’.
I wonder how many of the current Sierra Club Board of Directors actually climb anything these days?
That was inevitable once the Sierra Club disbanded the RCS because of liability fears. I expect to see similar sorts of evolution from REI now that climbing forms so small a part of its overall business.
What the article didn't address (to me, at least) is the extent to which climbing reduced the overall lichen population and composition. Any climber in Yosemite can see that we reduce the presence of lichen. It's easy to pick out popular routes by the white lines on otherwise grey cliffs. The scars on, e.g. Nutcracker are now more prominent than the Firefall scar. That's an aesthetic issue, but I doubt that we reduce the amount of lichen on Yosemite cliffs even 1%, and I doubt that we change its overall composition by any measurable amount there.
John
|
|
i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 08:39am PT
|
^yes but that's Canadian rock and it has free health care
|
|
Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 08:41am PT
|
No coincidence that the lack-of-imagination crowd suggests collective suicide.
Ignorance leads to fear.
Fear leads to hate.
Hate leads to the Dark Side.
-praise jesus
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 09:11am PT
|
What about the level ground? Are people bad for that, too? Stupid trench kickers!
Yes: Cryptobiotic Crusts
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 09:33am PT
|
"Cryptobiotic Crusts"
Crap. Is there no-where we can't go?
Maybe Cosmic is right. Sigh.
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 10:09am PT
|
Personal observation: I returned to the Valley about 10 years ago after having been away for the 30 years pr so. I immediately noticed how much the color of the rock next to cracks had changed; I'm guessing due to lichen being rubbed off. On the few climbs I did, I was also a little stunned, and dismayed, by the pin scaring in cracks that we climbed with nuts. Someone starting to climb now would, rightly, view the current state as normal. I am somewhat surprised that the NPS allows climbing. I suppose iy is no worse than a maintained trail.
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 10:29am PT
|
So, Aunty x, a ‘Lu chen species’, could have as part of its make up either of n number of algal / Cyanobacteria species, and still be the same lichen species as long as the same fungus is among us, so to speak? How does that make sense?
That sounds like the answer to my questions is b) bad science....
Science uses naming systems to facilitate further study and discovery. Naming is one step in the process. Maybe lichenologists are one step ahead of the above uninformed opinion, ever think of that?
Why not learn and make informed choices. You can't choose not to decide, so may as well look and learn.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/fungi/lichens/lichensy.html
There are as many as 20,000 different kinds of lichen known, and new ones being discovered all the time. These are treated as species by lichenologists, but are not species in the same sense as animal or plant species. Because lichens are formed through a combination of alga and fungus, it is not possible to study the phylogeny of lichens, per se. Rather, the relationships of the fungal partner and the algal partner must both be studied.
The algal partner is usually a unicellular pleurastrophycean green alga, such as Trebouxia, Pseudotrebouxia, or Myrmecia, or is often a cyanobacterium, such as Nostoc or Scytonema. The fungal partner may be an Ascomycete or Basidiomycete.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 10:29am PT
|
An Essay on the Principle of Population - Thomas Malthus 1798
A lotta good that did.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 10:37am PT
|
The most impactful thing in rock climbing is a guidebook.
The most impactful guidebooks are "select" guides.
Anyway, I'll take your point when it comes to publicizing less known areas. But for a well known area with a plethora of great climbs, internet resources and select guides concentrate people on a few popular climbs. A good complete guide can offer up quality alternatives, and maybe people will quit lining up for the same dozen known classics. I think dispersal is a good thing, overuse not so much.
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 10:40am PT
|
Shame on you, Kris!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 10:45am PT
|
All this hand wringing is just a variation on a theme by Nero.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 10:56am PT
|
I've contributed to The Nature Conservancy and The Access Fund. Both do good work, but are they at cross purposes?
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 11:31am PT
|
After writing a guidebook, donating to whatever does not counterbalance anything. lol!
|
|
Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 11:31am PT
|
Are cliffs bad for rock climbing?
Oh yeah
Stay inside punters
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 11:40am PT
|
" but are they at cross purposes? "
Like everything here, and elsewhere, it isn’t a black and white issue.
Moderation is often the most difficult path.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
|
It is time, that we as climbers, reduce our lichen footprint. The great outdoors should be kept in the caring hands and under the gentle feet of biologists. Climb in the gym.
|
|
Trump
climber
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
|
Yea I appreciate the curiosity and interest in understanding how it works and what’s up with what - how the whole system works and what our part is and what the lichens part in the system is.
The LNTers have always had a good point and the ethical high ground and we all know it. If the ire of the Sierra Club is troubling well maybe attribute that to guilty feelings?
Yea my sense is that the moral high ground is getting pretty trampled itself, and I don’t feel much of a need to trample it more, or have it trample me.
10.7% of humans live in extreme poverty, and if what we’d like to spend our resources of time and money and effort on are a few patches of lichen living on a cliff - spending our money on a gym membership to avoid impacting those lichen - for me, I’d mostly just like to try to understand why we choose that moral high ground to make our stand, without myself needing to ascribe a pro my self/gender/race/species/nation/planet social self-approving others-influencing moral belief about why I do it.
But lichen are cool too, and if you want to try to understand lichen, cool. We each do this human thing our own way, but there are probably some common threads of how and why we do it the way we do.
I think dispersal is a good thing
The solution to pollution is dilution. Or not. Tough call.
|
|
hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 09:43am PT
|
While not directly & immediately affecting lichen and plants such as stepping, trampling, brushing, etc. certainly all that fossil fuel used to get to our vertical adventures, be it international travel or the local crag, figures into the timeline & the sum of the end equation.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 10:26am PT
|
Go stand in one of the tunnels leading to the valley, then stand below El Cap. Ask yourself which one should be more cause for concern regarding human made damage.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
|
In a general sense across the globe, the effect of climbing is tiny.
But on some specific cliffs, it's probably not tiny, and if those have rare plants/animals, then I don't think it's too unreasonable to ask folks to find some place else. There are a lot of options.
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
|
To answer the OP:
Yes
|
|
aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
|
If you compare, just in the Sierras, the damage done by pack horses, or even hikers, to eco-systems, the damage done by climbers is very slight. So the Sierra Club should talk about eliminating hiking on trails, if they are serious about eco-system damage.
|
|
rubberrat
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
|
This is for clinker
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 09:29pm PT
|
the last paragraph of the article:
The answer is, it’s coming. Perez and other park staff are carrying out a long-term follow-up to Hessl and Clark’s initial survey at New River Gorge. They will be measuring biodiversity on 18 cliffs over the course of years (and hopefully decades). “We won’t be able to draw any cause and effect for years,” says Perez. “But we’ll be monitoring.”
I'm not surprised by the apparent knee-jerk reaction of the climbers posting to STForum regarding this issue, the reaction being that climbing doesn't matter to cliff ecologies.
Cliff ecologies are not at well studied and information on them is incomplete.
Cliffs have been refuges for organisms in the past, essentially isolated from human activity, climbing changes that.
The climbers' view seems to be that cliff ecologies are homogenous on the cliffs, so the small area that is effected by climbers is insignificant. There is no supporting evidence for this point of view.
The article does a good job discussing the state of cliff ecology and does not overstate the evidence for climber impact.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
|
Today my partner was showing off his large wire brush with a wood stiffener modification. This thing could be used in self defense. I dubbed it The Sierra Club.
Edit; didn't see your post. :)
|
|
Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 10:45pm PT
|
I really think Ed H. has a point.
I don't like it 'cause I still climb in the PNW where climbing is largely made possible by scrubbing cracks on cliffs (a pretty rare habitat, IMHO) of all organic material.
Crying all the way to the bank,
Darwin
|
|
skywalker1
Trad climber
co
|
|
I've scrubbed a boulder problem or two and it didn't 'feel right'. The flora and fauna may have a problem with it especially in deserts or alpine.
S....
Edit: A good reminder with your post.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
the last paragraph of the article:
The answer is, it’s coming. Perez and other park staff are carrying out a long-term follow-up to Hessl and Clark’s initial survey at New River Gorge. They will be measuring biodiversity on 18 cliffs over the course of years (and hopefully decades). “We won’t be able to draw any cause and effect for years,” says Perez. “But we’ll be monitoring.”
“We won’t be able to draw any cause and effect for years,” really? A comparison of rock a few feet away from the desecrated climbing route paths, in some cases visible from miles away, can't give an assessment of effect now? Stand back and look at Manure Pile Buttress.
Many trails and climber access areas become overrun highways. Grass doesn't grow there, litter and feces do. Should the effect be mitigated or eliminated? Save the wilderness, stay home. Hike or bike to work on concrete and asphalt laid over former wilderness.
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
|
|
Manifest Destiny, bitches... suck it.
Save the Earth! = Naďveté on display.
What they mean is, preserve this transitory moment in evolution as long as possible because we find it pleasurable. The Earth will endure our tenure, and won’t miss us when we are gone.
The Sun is the only thing within 10 lightyears that can destroy the Earth.
Cliffs are in a constant state of erosion.
Do climbers speed that process? Most likely.
Does it matter? Not in the least. The cliff still functions the way it did before.
I can look out my window at beautiful cliffs, and see evidence of blasting for mining, tailings piles, and historic debris. No one talks about cleaning that up, but the debate about drilling a bolt that can improve the local economy has everyone’s panties all bunched up.
In the end, what ever your position, it’s your opinion. When you impose your opinion on someone else, you cross a line.
I’m alive, I intend to take advantage of that fact.
What are they “saving” the cliff for anyway?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
They are talking about understanding the cliffs, and their ecosystems.
It is entirely possible that they learn what best practices are for climbers and climbing so that those practices are compatible with good stewardship of natural resources.
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
|
|
Recreation is part of the charter of public lands.
Humans are part of the ecosystem.
Understanding is cool and all, it justifies all the money parents spend at universities.
We know a lot about polar bears, but we can’t save them.
Is stewardship our job as a species? Wouldn’t that be rather egocentric? Who’s defending bacteria’s best interest, or basidiomycota’s...
Hubris, all of it.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
ECF, what a silly, self-interested statement, reminiscent of the behavior of a two-year old who doesn't know any better.
your post seems a better example of the word
hubris: excessive pride or self-confidence
The article you refer to merely states that climber activity on cliff ecosystems (which include both the top and bottom of the cliff) require study.
You seem sure that it is irrelevant, and that in any case, there cannot possibly be an impact severe enough to limit your actions.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
My point is that the impact can be studied NOW. The before and after on many routes is separated by a few feet. Tread as light as possible and be a good steward, yes, but there is a difinable impact from climbing cliffs.
Climbing drastically changes the natural biology of the cliffs. This can be studied now.
|
|
Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
|
|
I'm with Ed on this topic.
Impacts from climbers are largely ignored by the land managers both on the cliffs, and on access trails.
By declaring no-impact or trivial impact by climbers to cliffs and their native species without studies to support the claims are shortsighted for the sport.
|
|
Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
|
|
"Is rock climbing bad for cliffs?"
No
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
The cliffs? What about trampling all the vegetation at the base, if not actually cutting down trees and crapping behind every rock? And don’t get me started on boom boxes which cause stress to birds and frogs, not to mention other climbers.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
Those cliffs are there, skirts up, begging for it. We can't resist.
"Bad for them?" Well, if THEY thought it was, would they be begging for it?
|
|
Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
|
|
Are cities bad for the environment?
Yes. Let's get rid of them...
|
|
Trump
climber
|
|
I remember my botany roommate from freshman year going on a campaign to eliminate pedestrian impact (students carving dirt trails across the grass lawns in their repeated attempts to get to class 6 seconds earlier), and he went around campus posting signs asking people to stay on the concrete sidewalks, and educating fellow students about the perils of pedestrian impact.
Other folks got all worked up over solving the Riemann hypothesis.
If lichen on cliffs is your thing, cool.
I think a lot of the reaction here is around the (human use of the) word “bad,” which maybe has its purview in a different field than biology? Ultimately though, maybe not.
Biology might also have some things to say about our characterizing other people as knee-jerk, silly, self-interested, excessive pride, irrelevant, etc. I’ll be interested to see what biology has to say about us humans and our behaviors, and if, when it says it, we’ll still only believe it about other people.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
Entropy - Too, is
"to much of everything is *just enough"
(*Never Enough?)
"Bad" is what happens?
then sure, the best example is the Gunks. Beyond that the holds at the Gunks are prone to polishing, soil compaction and tree abuse along with reduction of climbers interest, comfort & ability to spread out, that has grown exponentially since the placement of bolted anchors,clearly shows what 19 years of concentrated use gets.
The coalition of the interested, that is open to every one, agreed to some changes before or coinciding with closures or access issues, which has reduced crag wear in certain areas, high lighting the obvious effects of heavy use at some areas in comparison to the re-growth of flora& funa at restricted use areas, so the effect was magnified.
The conditions were effected by a few different variables. but the cliff, its crisp wild feel has changed.
Then there is the overwhelmingly accepted new definition of climbing that has, in just 20 short years, the gym generation ,changed the outward gloss of climbing, weather the intrinsic nature has changed is not for me to comment on. , .
and that is beyond
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
I agree the trampling of vegetation at the base is an issue.
And an even bigger impact is the erosive trails leading to the base.
Often the effect of climber trails is to gradually create a growing erosive gutter that rapidly scours and drains the crag after rainfall. This means the whole area will be more vulnerable to drought (Central Holcomb pinnacles for example, - an area where the USFS refuses to allow organized erosion control)
These "gutter" trails are attractive to many because the erosion makes them a highly visible blight. For example, on the approach to the north side of Tahquitz, if you fork off the trail and go right to the talus below the NE recess, you will leave no trace because you are mostly walking on granite talus blocks. But many like to take the dirt trails going up through the woods, because the erosion makes them visible.
In the high mountains above treeline, the descent from most popular peaks is just a mess of steep climber braids.
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
Having personally taken a pristine area and developed and promoted unleashing the hoards, I'd have to say, yes.
As ourdoor users I think we are still in the "shoot all animals on sight" phase that were were in 200 years ago. That we don't need to worry about our impact on lichen's and weeds around the rocks.
But, climbers, hikers, and all outdoor users need to up the game.
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 03:03pm PT
|
The most impactful thing in rock climbing is a guidebook.
No.
Road building.
|
|
Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
|
Breeding...
Stop it already.
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
|
The second most impactful thing in rock climbing is Dam building.
|
|
McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
|
This is the kind of nonsense that makes scientists and liberals look like loonies. Almost everything else we do is worse for the cliffs, climate change, logging, mining. The Earth isn't going to give a rats ass about what happened to a few rock faces that got climbed on out of the many that never even felt human eyes - not when the poles are melting and we're not doing enough to stop it. The Sierra Club should stick to what they do best instead of eating their own. This is a clear case of not seeing the forest for the trees - LOL. Study lichen to show what climate change does to it. To study what climbers do to it is beyond absurd.
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
|
Also pretty impactful are beaurocrats in charge of climbing areas.
My favorite examples include the ranger with a welder who burned down Smith Rock during a drought. He was welding a fee box.
Also on my list are the City of Rocks rangers who, after lecturing a group of climbers on the massive historic destruction caused by bolt replacement, assigned me a campsite where I could smell the dynamite and rock dust from a boulder they blew up that afternoon so the Winnebagos could get to the end of the road.
The Mohonk doings over the last 100 years aren’t far behind on my list.
And Mother Nature is perfectly capable of screwing up climbing areas all on her own. She is pretty much indifferent to our needs.
At the rate the valley is exfoliating due to natural causes, no current climbs will exist in a thousand years. The place has been falling down since before recorded history. And many of the recent rockfalls are in places nobody climbs. Future generation will get to put up brand new lines. It has already happened on half dome.
The pin scars on Serenity won’t mean crap compared to what the waterfalls on either side will do to that area.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 05:23pm PT
|
Is Rock Climbing Bad For Cliffs
Yep .... so stay at home to drool on the internet don't go out the door except to the mall to drool where you'll be shot by an active shooter.
Better yet get a lobotomy ....
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
|
In reality an interesting question.
I remember reading about Honnold's solo of El Sendero Luminoso in 2014 and some sidelights of the endeavor. Alex was perplexed and grapples with the environmental impact of his own climbing career and specifically about the carbon footprint of flying down to Mexico to partake in this solo.
Alex and Cedar Wright spent several days "cleaning" the route of dirt and cactus. I would imagine that included a significant assortment of plants and considering the geophysical location quite possibly a number of those were quite old and rare? Honnold makes no reference to this elimination beyond the fact they interfered with his solo attempt.
So in retrospect I believe there should be some concern about the ecology of cliffs, there ecosystem and the impact from climbing. A little self awareness goes a long way toward preventing the "man" from eventually setting up restrictions on climbers when they as a group could have foreseen this and prevented it.
I have not read this book, as it is rather expensive, but it just might enlighten those of us who are genuinely concerned.
But you are a stubborn breed so have at it.
Whatever.....
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Dec 17, 2018 - 08:26am PT
|
Yes, rock climbing has bad consequences for things that live on cliffs. The authors of the book Guido posted are based very near Rattlesnake Point which is near Toronto and over the years has seen about as much impact as climbers can possibly deliver to one small outcrop of limestone. However, Rattlesnake Point is still open for climbing and a balance is attempted between use and protection.
Climbers and the authorities which manage climbing areas should work together to learn about and address the concerns both groups may have.
Here are cliffs on the other side of Canada.
An ecological assessment was done in 2003. It was limited in scope and time and goes into the problems of doing such assessments.
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r17752/MtMaxwellTEMFinalReport_1268331123663_1545bc1f2a039994f1597f243264033f835c0a0fe7db98bfab4f25a5631ce301.pdf
Climbing was not singled out as a threat to the habitat, but the report had this:
A plan for the park was published in 2012. I talked with a ranger and it is still only a plan, not a body of policies, rules, and regulations. The plan says that rock climbing should not be allowed, mainly to protect peregrine falcon nests.
There are also several rare and threatened plants mentioned in the 2003 report that grow where climbers are likely to go.
We climbers should be ready to participate in planning. It would be nice to have arguments for the positive impacts of climbing. So far all I can think of is trash removal from the ledges below the lookouts, which would make them much nicer for the climbers but might not impress the folks worried about falcons or Lomatium grayi.
In the particular case that concerns me, climbing is protected mainly by a very modest budget devoted toward any kind of signage or enforcement. It seems likely we will get to continue to use our own judgement about what to do and not do. If, for example, the attempts to get people to keep their dogs on leash in the other Provincial Park below the cliffs are indicative.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Dec 17, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
|
Ed said: "They are talking about understanding the cliffs, and their ecosystems."
I'd feel much better about it if they had started with the massive D9 bulldoze tracks and tunnels they made on the roads. Research to include oil dripping off of hot manifolds and killing amphibians ecosystem. How massively long sterile strips of used rubber on roads breaks up wildlife migration patterns and their ecosystem. How temperature increases on black pavement negatively affect various flora, fauna and their ecosystems, including all the lichens in the vicinity. What effect cutting down 1000 trees in Yosemite would have on any potential ecosystem. Frantic work continues as they initiate new improved roads. They never did that study and still have not even started that "research" Ed. I wonder why?
Re the articles note: " “Anecdotally, I do think that climbers have an impact on vegetation,”" Of course we do. Like a hiking trail anywhere does, except with much less impact. Yes, a track a few feet wide in a few vertical locations is a tiny bit of any cliff. If you are a climber looking to get your masters degree, it something "cool" and interesting to hang your hat on. But significantly overinflating a tiny thing only makes people resistant elsewhere to real big issues with real facts like Dan notes above.
Worth saying twice: "This is the kind of nonsense that makes scientists and liberals look like loonies. Almost everything else we do is worse for the cliffs, climate change, logging, mining. The Earth isn't going to give a rats ass about what happened to a few rock faces that got climbed on out of the many that never even felt human eyes - not when the poles are melting and we're not doing enough to stop it. The Sierra Club should stick to what they do best instead of eating their own. This is a clear case of not seeing the forest for the trees - LOL. Study lichen to show what climate change does to it. To study what climbers do to it is beyond absurd. "
In wet areas, often within a month or even weeks of climbers not climbing a line, the wilderness is back. Our impact is minor and transitory.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 76 of total 76 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!