Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Trump
climber
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
|
Yea I appreciate the curiosity and interest in understanding how it works and what’s up with what - how the whole system works and what our part is and what the lichens part in the system is.
The LNTers have always had a good point and the ethical high ground and we all know it. If the ire of the Sierra Club is troubling well maybe attribute that to guilty feelings?
Yea my sense is that the moral high ground is getting pretty trampled itself, and I don’t feel much of a need to trample it more, or have it trample me.
10.7% of humans live in extreme poverty, and if what we’d like to spend our resources of time and money and effort on are a few patches of lichen living on a cliff - spending our money on a gym membership to avoid impacting those lichen - for me, I’d mostly just like to try to understand why we choose that moral high ground to make our stand, without myself needing to ascribe a pro my self/gender/race/species/nation/planet social self-approving others-influencing moral belief about why I do it.
But lichen are cool too, and if you want to try to understand lichen, cool. We each do this human thing our own way, but there are probably some common threads of how and why we do it the way we do.
I think dispersal is a good thing
The solution to pollution is dilution. Or not. Tough call.
|
|
hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 09:43am PT
|
While not directly & immediately affecting lichen and plants such as stepping, trampling, brushing, etc. certainly all that fossil fuel used to get to our vertical adventures, be it international travel or the local crag, figures into the timeline & the sum of the end equation.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 10:26am PT
|
Go stand in one of the tunnels leading to the valley, then stand below El Cap. Ask yourself which one should be more cause for concern regarding human made damage.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
|
In a general sense across the globe, the effect of climbing is tiny.
But on some specific cliffs, it's probably not tiny, and if those have rare plants/animals, then I don't think it's too unreasonable to ask folks to find some place else. There are a lot of options.
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
|
To answer the OP:
Yes
|
|
aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
|
If you compare, just in the Sierras, the damage done by pack horses, or even hikers, to eco-systems, the damage done by climbers is very slight. So the Sierra Club should talk about eliminating hiking on trails, if they are serious about eco-system damage.
|
|
rubberrat
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 08:21pm PT
|
This is for clinker
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 09:29pm PT
|
the last paragraph of the article:
The answer is, it’s coming. Perez and other park staff are carrying out a long-term follow-up to Hessl and Clark’s initial survey at New River Gorge. They will be measuring biodiversity on 18 cliffs over the course of years (and hopefully decades). “We won’t be able to draw any cause and effect for years,” says Perez. “But we’ll be monitoring.”
I'm not surprised by the apparent knee-jerk reaction of the climbers posting to STForum regarding this issue, the reaction being that climbing doesn't matter to cliff ecologies.
Cliff ecologies are not at well studied and information on them is incomplete.
Cliffs have been refuges for organisms in the past, essentially isolated from human activity, climbing changes that.
The climbers' view seems to be that cliff ecologies are homogenous on the cliffs, so the small area that is effected by climbers is insignificant. There is no supporting evidence for this point of view.
The article does a good job discussing the state of cliff ecology and does not overstate the evidence for climber impact.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
|
Today my partner was showing off his large wire brush with a wood stiffener modification. This thing could be used in self defense. I dubbed it The Sierra Club.
Edit; didn't see your post. :)
|
|
Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2018 - 10:45pm PT
|
I really think Ed H. has a point.
I don't like it 'cause I still climb in the PNW where climbing is largely made possible by scrubbing cracks on cliffs (a pretty rare habitat, IMHO) of all organic material.
Crying all the way to the bank,
Darwin
|
|
skywalker1
Trad climber
co
|
|
I've scrubbed a boulder problem or two and it didn't 'feel right'. The flora and fauna may have a problem with it especially in deserts or alpine.
S....
Edit: A good reminder with your post.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
the last paragraph of the article:
The answer is, it’s coming. Perez and other park staff are carrying out a long-term follow-up to Hessl and Clark’s initial survey at New River Gorge. They will be measuring biodiversity on 18 cliffs over the course of years (and hopefully decades). “We won’t be able to draw any cause and effect for years,” says Perez. “But we’ll be monitoring.”
“We won’t be able to draw any cause and effect for years,” really? A comparison of rock a few feet away from the desecrated climbing route paths, in some cases visible from miles away, can't give an assessment of effect now? Stand back and look at Manure Pile Buttress.
Many trails and climber access areas become overrun highways. Grass doesn't grow there, litter and feces do. Should the effect be mitigated or eliminated? Save the wilderness, stay home. Hike or bike to work on concrete and asphalt laid over former wilderness.
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
|
|
Manifest Destiny, bitches... suck it.
Save the Earth! = Naïveté on display.
What they mean is, preserve this transitory moment in evolution as long as possible because we find it pleasurable. The Earth will endure our tenure, and won’t miss us when we are gone.
The Sun is the only thing within 10 lightyears that can destroy the Earth.
Cliffs are in a constant state of erosion.
Do climbers speed that process? Most likely.
Does it matter? Not in the least. The cliff still functions the way it did before.
I can look out my window at beautiful cliffs, and see evidence of blasting for mining, tailings piles, and historic debris. No one talks about cleaning that up, but the debate about drilling a bolt that can improve the local economy has everyone’s panties all bunched up.
In the end, what ever your position, it’s your opinion. When you impose your opinion on someone else, you cross a line.
I’m alive, I intend to take advantage of that fact.
What are they “saving” the cliff for anyway?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
They are talking about understanding the cliffs, and their ecosystems.
It is entirely possible that they learn what best practices are for climbers and climbing so that those practices are compatible with good stewardship of natural resources.
|
|
ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
|
|
Recreation is part of the charter of public lands.
Humans are part of the ecosystem.
Understanding is cool and all, it justifies all the money parents spend at universities.
We know a lot about polar bears, but we can’t save them.
Is stewardship our job as a species? Wouldn’t that be rather egocentric? Who’s defending bacteria’s best interest, or basidiomycota’s...
Hubris, all of it.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
ECF, what a silly, self-interested statement, reminiscent of the behavior of a two-year old who doesn't know any better.
your post seems a better example of the word
hubris: excessive pride or self-confidence
The article you refer to merely states that climber activity on cliff ecosystems (which include both the top and bottom of the cliff) require study.
You seem sure that it is irrelevant, and that in any case, there cannot possibly be an impact severe enough to limit your actions.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
My point is that the impact can be studied NOW. The before and after on many routes is separated by a few feet. Tread as light as possible and be a good steward, yes, but there is a difinable impact from climbing cliffs.
Climbing drastically changes the natural biology of the cliffs. This can be studied now.
|
|
Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
|
|
I'm with Ed on this topic.
Impacts from climbers are largely ignored by the land managers both on the cliffs, and on access trails.
By declaring no-impact or trivial impact by climbers to cliffs and their native species without studies to support the claims are shortsighted for the sport.
|
|
Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
|
|
"Is rock climbing bad for cliffs?"
No
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
The cliffs? What about trampling all the vegetation at the base, if not actually cutting down trees and crapping behind every rock? And don’t get me started on boom boxes which cause stress to birds and frogs, not to mention other climbers.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!