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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 17, 2018 - 10:15am PT
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Moose-
He'd get to the belay ledge and, not seeing the bolted anchor, say: I must be off Woot.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 17, 2018 - 10:37am PT
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The adventure we experienced when the world was wild, was for us. It shaped us, and our dreams and values. It enriched our lives.
The problem you are having stems from the belief that others would benefit from this same experience. It’s a different time, the thrill of discovery is gone, burried under a hill of guidebooks, travel magazines, and adventure blogs. We know who to blame...
Th sad fact is people getting into climbing today are doing so for different reasons. The commitment level just isn’t there, they are hobbyists.
And why is that sad? Even in the gym you can push yourself mentally and physically. So they bring a gym climbing mentality when they move outdoors? This makes them sad and worthless? If they don't do the climbs like I did them BITD it is wrong? The older generation "owns" the rock and the new generation must follow that or else?
Tradition: Following the dictates of dead people...
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Trump
climber
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Sep 17, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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John Muir walked away into the mountains
An old overcoat a crust of bread in his pocket
We have no knowledge and so we have stuff
And stuff with no knowledge is never enough to get you there
It just won’t get you there.
Ah well, I guess even John Muir had an old overcoat and some bread. Maybe he made his coat himself and baked his bread himself, I don’t know. But I don’t think his Neanderthal ancestors knew how to make an overcoat or bake bread - those are thing that old John relied on someone else to pave the way for him, to learn how to do for him, to bolt the way for him, and made his life a little more comfy.
We ain’t no John Muirs, or Neanderthals. We’re modern day John Muirs, modern day Neanderthals, living in our modern day environment with our modern day knowledge and our modern day stuff, our high tech patagucci overcoats and our yummy artisanal bolted bread.
Times change, but it doesn’t mean we need to change with them.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 17, 2018 - 10:43am PT
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Ya, and they rap off of Middle Cathedral now too, the walk off is too challenging....go figure
So I've done the walk off of Middle Cathedral dozens of times. It isn't bad when it is dry. Give it a try in spring with a combination of snow melt and an afternoon thunderstorm.
At some point, if I remember correctly, there was a bit of rock slide that left a lot of loose rock made knocking down rocks on descent parties below you a serious issues.
But all this is preferable to the nightmare that is otherwise known as rap bolts.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 17, 2018 - 10:45am PT
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Times have changed, and the old ethics are vanishing.
And the cost of a tib-fib fracture is now 1000x what it was "BITD"....
lol
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 17, 2018 - 10:52am PT
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If they don't do the climbs like I did them BITD it is wrong? The older generation "owns" the rock and the new generation must follow that or else?
nobody is criticizing the style, style has no effect on the rocks. Ethics affect the rock forever.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Sep 17, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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Been around a few Old Dad's that still remain and it's now in their minds to go out and make their old and bold routes safer. I won't name names but these folks sit high on the totem pole and have done hundreds upon hundreds of routes, many of them runout and possess rusting relics/time bombs. I think its a good thing to consider keeping routes safe yet retain a traditional style.
On the other side, like Jim was mentioning, don't comfortize. If there's a crack or a feature that can be protected, cams, nuts and slings work perfect for the job. I've heard: "I'd much rather slam in a $5 bolt than drag up $125 cam." This actually came from the mouth of an old Dad and it actually had me scratching my head. Especially that he spent years putting up runout routes in the traditional style. Engaging thoughts.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
The fake McCoy from nevernever land.
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Sep 17, 2018 - 11:34am PT
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I can not say you are wrong on any point, but this is music to deaf ears. Perhaps if you created a meme the younger generation might hear you.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 17, 2018 - 12:21pm PT
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Perhaps if you created a meme the younger generation might hear you.
Amen. There is no hope. It’s all about styling and getting the selfie.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Sep 17, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
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With the one, two punch from the south paw.....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 17, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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What? I thought it was too much oatmeal?
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Sep 17, 2018 - 01:00pm PT
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The Gunks are a junk show.
Yep. IMO, once rap routes were 'officially' established, the Gunks went to hell. Now you could be on a lead and a rope will come whistling down without even checking to see if anyone is climbing below because the rappellers are on an established rap route. Also, guides have become quite annoying by bogarting popular routes and establishing fixed anchors part way up classic pitches. I found one guide was top roping the first pitch of Madam G's and blocking access.
The selfishness in me says ban guiding in the Gunks. However, I guided in the Gunks many many moons ago, too. And I hate being a hypocrite. But I certainly never set up TRs on popular climbs and usually did that stuff out at Bonticou on in very isolated areas.
Rant over for now.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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Most guides are respectful of other climbers but certainly not all. A few guides bogard routes and seem disdainful of other climbers. It is also true that some comfortizing of routes is done by guides.
When I was doing "Splitter Camps" in IC I would set up top ropes. If other climbers came by I would offer them a ride or move or pull the ropes if they wanted to lead.
As is usually the case, a small minority can give an entire group a bad name. Hence the joke..."What is the difference between God and a climbing guide?" Answer..."God knows he's not a climbing guide."
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inakaki
Boulder climber
Flatlands east
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Sep 17, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
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Good afternoon, I probably have no business commenting on this, I'm a humble troll looking at many the tremendous photographs on this site. However, bolts... I have to agree, in my option it's just making it dangerous for folks who have no business being on complex routes entirely out of their ability. I figure you have to earn the right to be up there... I recognize I have no business being up there, even if I want to take the picture (afraid of heights bahahaha), but I'll be fair if somebody told there was a stairway, I probably would go. derp. So there's that, then there's the damage being done and I'm out of my depth on this too. Be happy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2018 - 01:33pm PT
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Inakaki...believe me what this forum needs is for more people to express their views. There is no qualifying criteria to have your voice heard. If there were, it would get pretty quite around here.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 17, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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I whole heartily agree that bolted belays should not be added to existing trad routes that have decent gear anchors. there are however many climbs that simply would not exist without bolts and bolted anchors. This one we did on Saturday certainly would suck without the few bolts that it has. Screaming Meanie ironicley the two bolts isa clipped to the right belong to a horrible squeeze job put up by a staunch traditionalist who actually wrote a foreward in the guide book warning about irresponsible bolting. Screaming Meanie however is an amazeing climb with 2 bolts up high that you can't see in this shot of P1 and then a 2 bolt belay in the middle of no where. P2 has a pin and one bolt that is not nessicary. A relic of Ground up bolting where a hidden placement appears a foot or so above this desperately drilled beauty but then P3 has 2 or 3 critical bolts as well as a critical bolted belay.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 17, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
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I was quite amazed Saturday at Rogers Rock. I Never would have imagined that you could construct such a beautifull and practicle tard anchor on a low angle 5.5 in only 45min....
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 17, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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Back when Donini was climbing the pyramids as they were being constructed...things were different.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Sep 17, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
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Well said Jim!
but
there is another side
while unneeded belay bolts are more common than the under-bolted,
both are evidence of something gone wrong...
over bolting, or bolts where there is natural pro, probably just dumb..
when establishing a route, and you do know. there is also a responsibility to those that follow,
long before "trad" there was an ethic that the leader, or first ascensionist, had a responsibility to those who followed.
Hence,
if you talk to Leversee after doing the 250 foot "pitch" you hear, oh yeah, sorry about that... or Carson just says it was not in the budget that weekend.
if you are a 5.12 climber, and you put up a 5.9 route, you protect it so a 5.9 climber will not ground from 60 feet, "The Kid" in the meadows is a great example of a first and last bolt to mark a route, with nothing in-between to make the "lesser" climber even close to safe, brainless or ill willed, take your pick.
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Zoid
Trad climber
West Creek, CO
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Sep 17, 2018 - 05:08pm PT
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Steve A., unfortunately the Wind’s are too accessible to be considered “wilderness” any more. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of rock out there that is still pretty wild.
Won’t be any bolted belays on the rock pictured below anytime soon but, if I have my way, there will be a route there in the near future.
Hi Jim,
Those towers look like Lukpilla Brakk and Pk. 19,370, on the ridge separating the Uzen Brakk & Biafo Glaciers, immediately west of the Ogre. Robert Warren, Steve Wood & I did the FA of Pk. 19,370 via the obvious SW buttress that faces the Biafo Glacier in July 1990. The route was named the Four Aces (after a rot-gut bottle of whiskey we bought at Flashman’s in Rawalpindi), and took us five days to complete. The route was 33 pitches, with some easy ice and snow along the summit ridge. We rated it 5.11 A4, but it went mostly free with lots of good 5.10 & 5.11 cracks. We rapped the route line, and although you will find a large number of wired stoppers for rap anchors, you will not find a single bolt on the route.
We also did new routes on the south face of the Ogre Stump and the West Face of Lukpilla Brakk that summer. No bolts were used for those routes either. Robert wrote up a detailed trip report which was published in the 1991 American Alpine Journal, titled “Cragging in the Karakoram”.
Didn’t want to see you travel all that distance only to discover our rap anchors after a pitch or two (It's happened to me...)
Pete Gallagher
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