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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Good points by Splater--I'm thinking along those lines too.
FYI, draft of my comments--may tweak it some more:
I am a rockclimber of 40 years experience, including work as a professional guide in the Sierra and Joshua Tree. I climbed frequently at Williamson Rock after it became a sportclimbing venue, and I led monthly trips there as a member of the Southern California Mountaineers Association.
I was not invited to be a member of Friends of Williamson Rock, although I did attend one of its meetings. I researched this issue extensively on my own, and I also briefed staff members of the Access Fund shortly after they became involved a few years ago, perhaps in response to my criticism of their lack of involvement. I don't think that either of these groups has addressed the issues significantly.
I am still not satisfied with the scientific thinking behind the closure. I understand that the science is complex, and I think that the Forest Service is now doing its best to meet all of its responsibilities. I did not feel so initially. I appreciate the recent meetings which offered everyone a chance to be heard and am hopeful that a good plan will be drawn up soon.
My suggestions:
1. Open the gorge annually to rockclimbing two weeks after the stream stops running. This generally happens during June or even May after dry winters. Williamson is a summer climbing venue, and an August 1 opening would cut the summer in half.
2. Keep the "long trail" and the skree descent closed. I think that the 3rd class "short trail" descent is best for all climbers. The long trail goes through year-round frog habitat and the skree descent will not bear the erosion of frequent use. The short trail was preferred and used for years. People who can't handle it shouldn't be climbing in the gorge.
3. I see no good reason to close London Wall or Stream Wall during the dry season. I think it's important to keep the entire area open to climbing in order to spread climber use out and prevent overuse of particular areas. These two walls have important climbs for both beginners and accomplished climbers. Even when water flows through, I have never heard of frogs being seen there in the heart of the rocky, steep-sided gorge. There is a waterfall in the middle of it. I find it difficult to imagine that frogs ever traverse this area, except perhaps tadpoles being washed downstream.
4. I do support the idea of a weekend permit system administered online. I've always felt that the Gorge got too crowded on weekends. A daily limit of about 90 climbers was mentioned, which I feel is reasonable.
5. Don't worry about the falcons. I can attest that they established their nest LONG AFTER Williamson became a busy climbing venue, and they tolerated us well for a couple of years before the closure. Skyscraper-nesting peregrines tolerate the crowds of downtown Los Angeles, and cupola-nesting peregrines tolerate noxious politicians at San Jose City Hall. If you must take sides in nature, consider that the falcons may be eating more than their fair share of mountain yellow-legged frogs.
6. I am happy to hear that the long idle property of the old Kratka ski lodge is not forgotten. I think it would make an excellent hostel-type facility for climbers, Pacific Crest hikers and many others, including winter recreationists. I'm not sure about the status of this property, but I would not support it being operated commercially for profit. Better to be in the hands of user groups such as the PCT Association, the Sierra Club, rockclimber organizations, youth organizations or others. Perhaps a consortium could be developed. Meanwhile, please fix up the neglected toilet facilities at Eagle Roost picnic area, which is handiest to the climbing area.
7. I have been highly critical of the science involved in this closure and will continue to be so because I think it represents the worst of emotional, stopgap environmentalism pushed by nonprofits of narrow focus. Such nearsightedness results in needlessly divisive controversy and at the same time misses important opportunities, such as occurred for the MYLF at Big Bear during the period of this very closure. There seem to be dozens of special interest environmental groups out begging for contributions and membership, but they all shy away from the big fights against corporations and government involving overdevelopment, careless development, and chemical pollution.
Most of the climbers I know care deeply about the state of the wilds simply because we spend a lot of time there. In the long run, I think that is the most significant factor and one which is rarely, if ever, considered. If you keep people away from nature, they soon stop caring about it. Nature becomes nothing more than glossy photos on flashy calendars or programs on PBS, comfortably dissociated from bugbite, frostbite, sunburn and exertion.
Nature is both vulnerable and resilient. You can only tend to it well if you become intimate with it.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Thank you Tony. Couldn't agree more on all points.
Thanks for all the updates Mo.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Most of the climbers I know care deeply about the state of the wilds simply because we spend a lot of time there. In the long run, I think that is the most significant factor and one which is rarely, if ever, considered. If you keep people away from nature, they soon stop caring about it. Nature becomes nothing more than glossy photos on flashy calendars or programs on PBS, comfortably dissociated from bugbite, frostbite, sunburn and exertion.
Nature is both vulnerable and resilient. You can only tend to it well if you become intimate with it.
tend to agree, except for this Most of the climbers I know care deeply about the state of the wilds simply because we spend a lot of time there.
Reading some of the responses from the climbers, on Supertopo, I beg to differ.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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It's true that "climbers" aren't what we used to be, mostly because climbing has changed. Most get into the sport through gyms these days and a lot of them stay there. But there are also a lot more getting involved--it used to be just a tiny bit of the population. That makes Williamson all the more important--a major sportclimbing venue close to big population which offers the means of transition from gym to outdoors.
I must forward this from an email from another climber in this forum:
"... at a dinner party a few years ago, sitting next to one of the frog researchers assigned to the area--fascinating discussion ... basically said the colony of frogs at Williamson had been completely decimated by natural forces within four years of the closure--drought and fire had eliminated the colony (sans humans) so the closure was moot ... furthermore said their research showed that introduced bullfrogs, fish and disease (brought by the non-native fish) were the leading cause of mortality in other colonies observed in the San Gabriels. Not human traffic."
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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is this you belaying kevin?
Credit: xCon
It quite possibly could be, but not sure.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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"...their research showed that introduced..."
what, pray tell, "introduced"? perhaps they rained down in some old-testiment event? who knows?
anyway, it sounds like the SoCal crew finally woke up and figured out that moaning and crying on the sidelines wasn't going to get them what they wanted, and they are engaged in the process.
good on them.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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My proposal is to close Angeles Crest Highway from Red Box to Vincent Gap. Then reopen Williamson Rock. It would certainly keep out the riff-raff.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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^^^^^ Hear, hear!
Best of all it would keep the motorcyclists and homicidal rice-burners away.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 10, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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Bureaucracy was the undoing of the Soviet Union, and many another empire,
and so it will be with ours.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 10, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
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As far as I know,
the slight progress of the ANF towards a partial reopening has Nothing to do with Trump. The draft EIS proposes the same thing the ANF proposed 4 years ago under Obama. The CBD has been suing for over a decade.
The CBD claim that the proposal affects the frogs: nonsense. All of the areas near the stream will be closed permanently.
The CBD also stakes its ground on fantasy island:
The MYLF in SoCal is highly unlikely to ever be delisted. The amazing work being done by biologists is likely to be needed indefinitely. For multiple reasons unrelated to climbers, the frog is as unlikely to make a natural comeback in SoCal as the grizzly bear. Each of the eight (of 166 historical) remaining locations of the frog is separate and fragmented. The population dropped even before climbing occurred, due to development, habitat destruction, non native trout & bullfrogs, pathogens, fungus, & chemicals. The population was inevitably endangered the moment it was declared a separate species from the MYLF in the Sierra. They may be remnant populations from a colder & wetter climate 10000 years ago. At one time clearly they got from one river basin to another. In some limited cases they could hop over a pass between watersheds, such as the pass at the Long Trail parking, which separates the Big Rock Creek from the San Gabriel River watershed. But to get from the San Gabriel mtns to the San Jacinto or San Bernardino mtns is a lot harder. Maybe by birds carrying the eggs or more likely: in a big flood the eggs would wash down to the lowlands (now all urban development), and over many years some frogs hopped between and up a different river.
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