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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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To address some of the comments supra ^^^
Just because people have not been cited nor any "visible" consequences, don't be fooled that the violations go un-noticed. Neither should anyone conclude that such behavior has no negative side effects when trying to get the area re-opened. The truth is otherwise.
Climbers are not the only group of "stakeholders" who have a voice or may take action against a proposed re-opening. Such behavior has done little to help gain a sympathetic ear of these other stakeholders.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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The Allied Climbers of San Diego and the Access Fund are looking into the DEIS. An Access Fund representative will be present at the meeting on the 11th. If you want a direct link to the document with the meeting dates/times/locations:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/97680_FSPLT3_4395481.pdf
If you would like to give any constructive feedback, please let us know. I suspect that we have lost the London and Stream Wall for the forseable future to protect the endangered species and that our biggest point of contention will be the size and scale of the raptor closure, but we haven't finished reading through the document and analyzing it yet.
Josh Higgins
President, Allied Climbers of San Diego
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Nutty
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Outstanding Tony, ribit, ribit!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 10, 2018 - 06:40am PT
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A note of great encouragement here--
I attended the meeting last night in Acton. There were about 20 of the public there and six from the Forest Service. Things seem to have gone from night to day. The meeting was fairly informal and people were encouraged to speak out. We were listened to at length and there was much back-and-forth, both in the general meeting and personal conversations.
I encourage all climbers to attend the second meeting, Saturday at the Forest Service office in Arcadia.
The Forest Service is considering four options in administering this area in the future. It's important to understand the details, and I was just getting acquainted with them through this first meeting. You'll find the documents online, but if you're interested in Williamson you'll want to ask questions and Saturday will be the golden opportunity to do so. Two of the Forest Service people are themselves rockclimbers.
I was told to pay particular attention to their Option #3 in the plan--this seems to be the one they're leaning toward, and it will involve re-opening Williamson with restrictions. There is serious consideration of an online permit system, especially for weekend climbing, to prevent the area from becoming overcrowded.
The business of the frog and the falcon nest is getting serious attention, but it's encouraging that their staff biologist is one of those climbers, and he's willing to address the technicalities of the scientific issues which, to say the least, are complex. A woman from the Center for Biological Diversity was there as well. Many of the issues I've talked about were raised, but the meeting managed to remain cordial, and that was wonderful.
The Forest Service at last seems to appreciate the importance of this climbing area to all of us Southern California climbers. This is our chance to be involved in their decision for its future. They are soliciting written comments up until Sept. 10.
Thanks to Lauri Kinney for her moral support in attending this meeting with me, and cheers to Jack Marshall for coming and lending his considerable knowledge of the area to the discussion.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 10, 2018 - 07:49am PT
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thanks for the updates Tony. I wanted to attend but there was no way for me to reschedule work obligations.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Aug 10, 2018 - 11:08am PT
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Another excuse ^^^^ lol ;)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 10, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
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I will add that there's a curious procedure involved, about which Andrew Lichtman has enlightened me.
Basically, the Forest Service wants to limit "input" in the final part of this process to those who have become involved at the beginning. In other words, if you don't officially give them some comment--and I'm assuming written comment, since no one's really taking notes of the discussion--by Sept. 10, you won't be allowed to comment on the final decision when it's made.
Seems like plain bureaucratic nonsense to me, but Andrew is familiar with it and it even has a name: "exhaustion of administrative remedies".
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 12, 2018 - 07:22am PT
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A note on the Arcadia meeting yesterday--
It was mostly question-and-answer, with a good turnout of about 50 people. Climbers I knew included Kris Solem, Ben Chapman, Pam Neil, Andrew Lichtman, Randy Vogel and the couple who runs Stronghold, who also attended the Acton meeting.
The sweetest words I heard were from Jeffrey Vail, Forest Supervisor: "I think this closure has gone on too long."
Study the plans. Get your comments in by Sept. 10. Jose, the ranger in charge of this project, says there will be another meeting when they have firmed up the final plan.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Aug 12, 2018 - 09:07am PT
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only 49 people, and a Chipper/manufacture lol Not a very strong showing of support for Willy.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Aug 12, 2018 - 09:21am PT
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True but with all the rules that are going to be imposed, I'm out.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2018 - 05:13pm PT
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Wow! Just like old times:
Tony Bird being wise.
Just The Maid being friendly:
And Jeff being obnoxious to the Maid. Sheesh, dude.
Thanks to all who participated. Get your letters in folks (see link in OP).
Sorry I was out of town for the two meetings.
Williamson is a great sport climbing resource but there are many others and more in development. Spread yourself around to reduce impact.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Aug 19, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
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I attended the meeting and am hopeful that there will be some compromise allowing access in the future though it will never be what it was but still worth whatever we can get IMO.
On a side note I asked one of the rangers what the status on the Pacifico Road was and would it ever open? He replied with "is that road is still closed?". I said that while Willy is still closed how bout you throw us a bone and open the road to Mt Pacifico. He had no idea there was any climbing up there and sounded excited to get the road open ASAP. He said it would probably only open form the Forest Hwy side and not the Crest Hwy side as there is some major damage. He was contacting the camp crew to have them clear some dead trees around the campground and once those are clear he didn't see any reason why the road wouldn't open up. Pacifico aint much but it's still a fun afternoon climbing area and an area rich in history. Hope it opens soon.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2018 - 10:33am PT
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Yes, opening and developing Pacifico Rocks and a few other crags along the crest would lift great burden off Willy.
Dude, you are retired. You should write a guide book to Angeles Crest climbing. You are as qualified or better than anyone. Lets go! I will provide encouragement.
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Moe Beta
Boulder climber
northridge, ca
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Aug 20, 2018 - 12:37pm PT
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So I'm unsure how to send this letter to the Forest Service. Is that comment period open right now? The wording in the letter is a bit technical. The following is taken from the letter:
Written comments will be accepted for 45 days following the date that a Notice of Availability is published in the Federal Register
Does that mean its open to comment right now? Until what date is the comment period open? Is everyone sending their letters to: Angeles_SGMNM@fs.fed.us ?? This post has more info than the R&I post but I'm still confused.
Can someone clear up all this info so we can send in our comments..?? This info should be clear and unambiguous.
Wow! Just like old times:
Tony Bird being wise.
Just The Maid being friendly:
And Jeff being obnoxious to the Maid. Sheesh, dude.
Thanks to all who participated. Get your letters in folks (see link in OP).
Sorry I was out of town for the two meetings.
Williamson is a great sport climbing resource but there are many others and more in development. Spread yourself around to reduce impact.
YES!
I attended the meeting and am hopeful that there will be some compromise allowing access in the future though it will never be what it was but still worth whatever we can get IMO.
On a side note I asked one of the rangers what the status on the Pacifico Road was and would it ever open? He replied with "is that road is still closed?". I said that while Willy is still closed how bout you throw us a bone and open the road to Mt Pacifico. He had no idea there was any climbing up there and sounded excited to get the road open ASAP. He said it would probably only open form the Forest Hwy side and not the Crest Hwy side as there is some major damage. He was contacting the camp crew to have them clear some dead trees around the campground and once those are clear he didn't see any reason why the road wouldn't open up. Pacifico aint much but it's still a fun afternoon climbing area and an area rich in history. Hope it opens soon.
YES!
Yes, opening and developing Pacifico Rocks and a few other crags along the crest would lift great burden off Willy.
Dude, you are retired. You should write a guide book to Angeles Crest climbing. You are as qualified or better than anyone. Lets go! I will provide encouragement.
HELL YES! DO IT!
Tony Bird, Spider and Batrock are showing true leadership. Lets take in their motivation and do what we can from behind our screens people! We know you're all looking at a screen right now! Lets send in these letters if the time is open.
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Moe Beta
Boulder climber
northridge, ca
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Aug 20, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
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UPDATE FROM ACCESS FUND - This link has the form to actually send in your comments. They fixed their page. Use the link below.
https://www.accessfund.org/take-action/campaigns/reopen-williamson-rock-to-climbing
The least you can do is copy and paste their talking points which i have compiled here as well.
Access fund talking points:
Williamson Rock is a premier climbing destination for Southern California. Since the 1960s, climbers from around the world historically enjoyed Williamson’s mild summer temperatures, proximity to nearby urban centers, and excellent rock quality. I encourage Angeles National Forest to pursue additional studies to designate rock climbing areas at Williamson Rock as a Traditional Cultural Property.
Any permit fees for accessing Williamson Rock should be minimal, and applicants should only pay the administrative fee for using recreation.gov. Excessively high permit fees will limit underrepresented communities ability to rock climb at Williamson Rock.
I conditionally support Alternative 3: Proposed Action (Adaptive Management) which would allow seasonal recreational use and employ adaptive management strategies to protect the Mountain Yellow-Legged Frog and their habitat. However, 1) Peregrine falcon nest monitoring should occur more frequently than the proposed two times during the nesting season in order to ensure robust adaptive management and limit unnecessary restrictions. A volunteer citizen monitoring program could be implemented to assist the Forest Service with more frequent monitoring, and 2) I do not support the use of a point system to quantify visitor behavior in order to further limit access. This practice is not in alignment with standard recreation management practices on federal land, and it could unfairly risk climbing access as a result of other visitor group behavior and unrelated biological process.
The November 1st road closure should be adaptively managed. Road closures should only occur in the event of snowfall or other instances that make roads impassable. Climbing access should not be unnecessarily restricted during prime climbing season.The climbing community is ready and eager to partner with the Angeles National Forest to raise funds and provide stewardship for Williamson Rock trails, vault toilets, and other recreation infrastructure.
The climbing community is ready and eager to partner with the Angeles National Forest to raise funds and provide stewardship for Williamson Rock trails, vault toilets, and other recreation infrastructure.
The Forest Service’s efforts to release the DEIS that considers reopening Williamson Rock are greatly appreciated. I encourage the Forest Service to complete the NEPA process and release the final EIS by the end of 2018 to ensure the process continues to move forward after this thirteen year closure.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 20, 2018 - 04:05pm PT
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The suggested comments from the AF are good,
but here are a few more that people may include:
1. The hard closure of 30 feet from the stream will prevent normal access to all the walls located above the London wall and Stream Wall. That means access is blocked to Freezer Burn, Eagles Roost/Chimney area, Sick Wall, Ego Buttress.
The access to those walls was to go behind the Mushroom and then traverse a good ledge to Freezer Burn and beyond. This ledge gets as close as about 25 feet from the stream. It is a solid rock slab down to the stream from there so there is no impact on the stream by people staying on the ledge traverse. A fence of sorts can keep them from going down to the stream.
An exception to the 30 foot rule should be made so people can get across this traverse. The 30 foot number is an arbitrary value not appropriate for all terrain. Otherwise the ANF is setting up a high likelihood of getting violations.
2. After the first year, the entire crag does not need to be closed from late spring to Aug 1. After the first year the falcons will be reconditioned enough to people so only the routes within about 50 yards of active raptor nesting need to be closed. Falcon populations have recovered and are no longer endangered or even threatened.
3. The 30 car limit was determined only by the main parking availability at the trailhead for the long trail. There are also several other nearby pullouts that can be used so the limit of 30 permits should be increased to 40. It is unlikely that the average car will have more than 2 people and it is unreasonable for the ANF to expect and demand that carpooling will increase to sky high unrealistic amounts.
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Moe Beta
Boulder climber
northridge, ca
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Aug 22, 2018 - 02:40pm PT
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The suggested comments from the AF are good,
but here are a few more that people may include:
1. The hard closure of 30 feet from the stream will prevent normal access to all the walls located above the London wall and Stream Wall. That means access is blocked to Freezer Burn, Eagles Roost/Chimney area, Sick Wall, Ego Buttress.
The access to those walls was to go behind the Mushroom and then traverse a good ledge to Freezer Burn and beyond. This ledge gets as close as about 25 feet from the stream. It is a solid rock slab down to the stream from there so there is no impact on the stream by people staying on the ledge traverse. A fence of sorts can keep them from going down to the stream.
An exception to the 30 foot rule should be made so people can get across this traverse. The 30 foot number is an arbitrary value not appropriate for all terrain. Otherwise the ANF is setting up a high likelihood of getting violations.
2. After the first year, the entire crag does not need to be closed from late spring to Aug 1. After the first year the falcons will be reconditioned enough to people so only the routes within about 50 yards of active raptor nesting need to be closed. Falcon populations have recovered and are no longer endangered or even threatened.
3. The 30 car limit was determined only by the main parking availability at the trailhead for the long trail. There are also several other nearby pullouts that can be used so the limit of 30 permits should be increased to 40. It is unlikely that the average car will have more than 2 people and it is unreasonable for the ANF to expect and demand that carpooling will increase to sky high unrealistic amounts.
All very good inquiries, and it seems that you know some about the area which is good. I hope they take those points into consideration as well.
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