Mammoth Mountainís Via Ferrata private on public land?!

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bearbnz

Trad climber
East Side, California
Jun 13, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
Unfortunately, due to the exclusivity of their permit, they can deny access to the permitted areas, and they do. I'm not sure exactly how they have arranged it, as other possessory interest owners, such as USFS summer cabins, cannot deny access to the property, only to the cabin.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
The FS can't stop you from gaining access and climbing YOUR rock. But they can stop you from using THEIR bolts and cables. Just like you can access the ski resort, but you can't ride the lifts (some areas even prevent you from accessing FS land under lease and this is a legal gray area).

Other's probably know better but I remember when they started running the lift for mountain biking, someone told me that they can't stop you from riding the trails but they can deny access to the lifts without proper payment.

For years I would ride up the trails. No one ever questioned my lack of a pass. I even would stop and talk with people working on the trails.

To play it safe I always carried some cash and had a lame excuse ready that I was riding to the ticket area. LOL
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices.

ski resorts are in the business of making money. they see the writing on the wall because of climate change. They are trying to add adventure sports to jeep them in business.

In the future, ski resorts may not have skiing.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:33pm PT
The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices.

Nah, the extra income is to paper over the declining skier days every year, the as#@&%es in Little Cottonwood are doing similar stuff.

A sad end to my dream of shorter seasons and reduced ticket sales getting rid of the leaches and leaving the land to those of us who actually want to ski(as opposed to sitting on chairs).
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
They Suck.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
In Europe they have lots of via ferrataís but from my understanding they are public.

No way in hell I'll pay to use a via ferrata. I'd contribute to support establishment of them on public land for open use.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
I think there is a privately owned via feratta up by Ogden here in UT. No idea if it's on private land or FS land.

And so far, all the mountain biking at all the resorts here is still free, as long as you ride up. They only charge for taking lifts up. There's a lot of folks that would be pretty pissed if that changed, but honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if things headed that way.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
Will there be the occasional cannon fire to clear out any possible rock fall?
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
No way in hell I'll pay to use a via ferrata.

But you may end up paying to climb on Forest service land in the future. Based on the precedents theyíre establishing, Jackson or Alta could start charging to access crags within their lease areas using a liability argument.

If thatís the case then the case for expanding their lease areas becomes that much stronger(charge more users with little to no investment by the resort, kind of like the ďcharge to skinĒ places).
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 13, 2018 - 02:09pm PT

Pay for the insurance policy that is required under the FS lease and youíll be set for privatizing your two bolt slab!

Well if somebody drops a rock/haul bag on you, or you suffer injuries because the bolts are too far apart, at least you will have somebody to sue.
;-)
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
But you may end up paying to climb on Forest service land in the future. Based on the precedents theyíre establishing, Jackson or Alta could start charging to access crags within their lease areas using a liability argument.

That just sucks. As taxpayers we have paid for public land; now they lease it out to privateers who now charge for us to be there? Triple taxation. I can understand ski resorts that have a lot of money invested in lifts and trail maintenance, but to add additional cost for using your own two feet and hands is reminiscent of the Boston Tea Party.
Mtbphoto

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, Ca
Jun 13, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
Mammoth Mountain does not allow you to mountain bike on their trails without a ticket...
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jun 14, 2018 - 06:37am PT
I think Tradman is onto something. Aren't skier days down most places? Given how damn expensive it is, I'm not surprised. If you live in the area and ski A LOT the yearly passes seem reasonable, but for the casual weekend? You gotta have some doubloons. What are day passes now, $140?

BAd
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 14, 2018 - 07:21am PT
Flat to down year over year for the better part of a decade now. Meanwhile human powered recreation continues to grow.

Itís a big issue here in the Wasatch bc the central Wasatch is pretty small so it really is a zero sum game. If you add a lift, you close that area to all free recreation most of the time. Hadnít thought of the climbing impacts until reading this. Canít wait until some bean counter at ASL reads this and tries to start charging to climb in Albion Basin.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jun 14, 2018 - 07:41am PT
Nah, the extra income is to paper over the declining skier days every year, the as#@&%es in Little Cottonwood are doing similar stuff.

Not declining. Breaking records the last two years.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865682999/Record-year-for-Utah-ski-industry.html

Numbers for this season should be coming out. Be interesting, given our poor snowpack, how the skier days stacks up.

Given no lack of the red snake on any given weekend, I personally haven't seen a decline. Not even this year. And, backcountry skiing has exploded. I've never seen the trailheads so packed with cars.

Rode lifts this season for a grand total of once in Utah (and once in Maine, oddly enough...) as a late start and that $10 at 3pm deal at Alta, on a very snowy day, was too much to pass up. Still got in 9 runs. Always interesting to chat with folks on the lifts. Nearly all from out-of-town. Here on a ski vacation.

Ogden's Via Ferrata is on private land, IIRC. Not sure its that popular. What is popular is our local sport climbing crags...

Get involved with policy and land managers on your local level!

Good times...
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jun 14, 2018 - 07:44am PT
Hadnít thought of the climbing impacts until reading this. Canít wait until some bean counter at ASL reads this and tries to start charging to climb in Albion Basin.

Not to climb, but, for access. You know they're going to charge to drive the summer road? And/or, ride a lift.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2018/04/23/alta-ski-areas-albion-basin-to-add-summer-lift-service-as-alpine-paradise-adjusts-to-growing-crowds/

Edit to add:

https://www.alta.com/summer
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jun 14, 2018 - 08:01am PT
As funding for National, State, and County Parks, as well as Federal Lands is reduced and the pressure for revenue sources increases, the leasing of private concessions and outright sell off of public land is already becoming rampant.

Mix in the new age of cronyism and pay-to play backdoor access and you'll look back and wish for those days of over officious Rangers being your worst problem.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 14, 2018 - 08:19am PT
@ JohnTP- I work for a Visitor's Center that has a "day use fee" (just $3/person) and I hear your argument a lot. "It's our public land- why do we have to pay to walk around?" .

Comments like that reflect total ignorance of the devastating degree of budget cuts that has been handed down from our current government. The cuts have been extreme. Our Tax dollars may have paid for the land but not for ongoing maintenance.

When we (the public) visit our public land, we have reasonable expectation that there will be clean bathrooms with TP and trashcans that aren't overflowing and FS employees to keep some semblance of order. Well- that's what "fees" and discretionary leasing cover.

Don't like privatization creeping into our federal land? In some cases I have observed that private companies do a better job managing than the under-funded federal employees. The only fix is to vote in an administration that isn't totally hostile towards the Park and Forest Service and get them back up to a realistic budget.

I think think the via-ferrata is pretty creative. There's only a handful in the US. None in CA.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 14, 2018 - 11:05am PT
Not declining. Breaking records the last two years.
Right, locally, 2 yrs ago likely bc of Cali drought, not sure about last year.

Nationally itís been pretty flat for close to 2 decades.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Jun 14, 2018 - 11:38am PT
Maybe I'm getting old and soft but Via Ferratas look pretty fun to me and are likely a good use of cliffs at ski areas. Ski areas are already developed so why not use the land in the summer time too? I guess I'd feel differently if it some how might impact a real crag.
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