Mammoth Mountainís Via Ferrata private on public land?!

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Messages 1 - 74 of total 74 in this topic
KRS-Grun

Trad climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 12, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
Mammoth Mountain is currently installing a via ferrata with approval from the Forest Service. They claim it is private property despite being installed on public land. https://www.mammothmountain.com/summer/things-to-do/adventure-center/new-for-2018
This seems strange to me as I canít bolt a route and then declare my bolts are my property and keep people off my routes.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jun 12, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
maybe if you entered into a lease with the forest service in which you pay them for the exclusive right to offer the use of your bolts then you could.

I think it's easier in this situation to just pretend the bolts and cables are lifts. same thing really
Ŗ ő ō T « H

Boulder climber
ne'erĖdoĖwell
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:06am PT
Alterra Mountain Company -- Gag me with a spoon.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 13, 2018 - 06:45am PT
There is a zipline coming soon. Gondola up, zipline down. Where is the via ferrata going to be.
KRS-Grun

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2018 - 07:14am PT
Just seems like a weird grey area they will own the route. In Europe they have lots of via ferrataís but from my understanding they are public. This case isnít as bad a the one installed in Monterrey, Mexico where they bolted over a 1,000 foot classic 5.9 arete. Down there the company that received the government money to install it tries to lay claim to it but the public still uses it.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:23am PT
The USFS can permit public use on federal land if they want to. It's not really comparable to an individual bolting a route on their own.

Any idea where the via ferratta is being installed? I dunno- it looks like fun to me. I'd give it a run.
Mtbphoto

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, Ca
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:30am PT
I heard about the Via Ferrata via a billboard in Bishop the other day. I would imagine it would have to be at "Top of the World" right up by the gondola. I always assumed that area has a ton of loose rock.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:30am PT
Pay for the insurance policy that is required under the FS lease and youíll be set for privatizing your two bolt slab! ;)
KRS-Grun

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2018 - 07:33am PT
Iím not saying itís the same as a person putting in bolts personally but there is clearly a similarity as they are putting bolts in rock as well as all the other hardware. My opinion is only that because it is on USFS land one should be allowed to hike up to it and climb it on their own. This is the first time USFS ha granted permission for this so itís a pretty unique scenario.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:40am PT
You pay for the right to ride the chairlift and ski, how is this different?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:40am PT
The Forest Circus sells our trees to be turned into bum wipe so how is this different?
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:46am PT
Ski resorts have long been able to lease land from the FS and charge for activities on that land. And set their own rules(see Alta and no snowboards).
Not sure how this is any different.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:01am PT
Yeah-^^^ its really no different. The USFS is not a conservation organization. They advocate public use of federal lands and can discriminate at will. There was another thread about allowing private helicopter companies exclusive rights to charge for heli-skiing-. They also lease land for grazing, mining and logging. It's all in the same basket.

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:32am PT
Iíve climbed at a private crag where you have to pay to play. Crawdad Canyon. Really not that great, but for ten bucks on the way out of town it was an interesting diversion.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:35am PT
The FS can't stop you from gaining access and climbing YOUR rock. But they can stop you from using THEIR bolts and cables. Just like you can access the ski resort, but you can't ride the lifts (some areas even prevent you from accessing FS land under lease and this is a legal gray area).
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 13, 2018 - 09:36am PT
So is access to the FS owned ski area restricted to pass holders. Can you skin up and ski down?

You need a pass for the xc track, I assume the same rule applies at the mountain

So the same would apply to the rock

The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices. Wishful thinking
silverplume

Trad climber
Boulder
Jun 13, 2018 - 10:06am PT
According to the Forest Service NEPA project site, these are going in on the Upper Caldera Overlook cliffs, E-NE of McCoy Station at 9,600 feet.
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Jun 13, 2018 - 11:51am PT
Wish you could ski uphill some at Mammoth Mountain officially!
bearbnz

Trad climber
East Side, California
Jun 13, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
Gumby is correct, the primary difference is the special use permit that MMSA has from the USFS that provides for their exclusive use of public lands. MMSA pays property taxes based on this exclusive use (known as a possessory interest). The land swap is nearing the final stages, and the Main Lodge area will soon be owned in fee by MMSA (Alterra). MMSA has had a habit of 'acquiring' other public assets that are not within their special use permit area, such as sections of the Uptown and Downturn trail.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 13, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
Thanks bear. Gumby implied that access was open, you seem to being saying otherwise
bearbnz

Trad climber
East Side, California
Jun 13, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
Unfortunately, due to the exclusivity of their permit, they can deny access to the permitted areas, and they do. I'm not sure exactly how they have arranged it, as other possessory interest owners, such as USFS summer cabins, cannot deny access to the property, only to the cabin.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
The FS can't stop you from gaining access and climbing YOUR rock. But they can stop you from using THEIR bolts and cables. Just like you can access the ski resort, but you can't ride the lifts (some areas even prevent you from accessing FS land under lease and this is a legal gray area).

Other's probably know better but I remember when they started running the lift for mountain biking, someone told me that they can't stop you from riding the trails but they can deny access to the lifts without proper payment.

For years I would ride up the trails. No one ever questioned my lack of a pass. I even would stop and talk with people working on the trails.

To play it safe I always carried some cash and had a lame excuse ready that I was riding to the ticket area. LOL
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices.

ski resorts are in the business of making money. they see the writing on the wall because of climate change. They are trying to add adventure sports to jeep them in business.

In the future, ski resorts may not have skiing.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:33pm PT
The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices.

Nah, the extra income is to paper over the declining skier days every year, the as#@&%es in Little Cottonwood are doing similar stuff.

A sad end to my dream of shorter seasons and reduced ticket sales getting rid of the leaches and leaving the land to those of us who actually want to ski(as opposed to sitting on chairs).
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
They Suck.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
In Europe they have lots of via ferrataís but from my understanding they are public.

No way in hell I'll pay to use a via ferrata. I'd contribute to support establishment of them on public land for open use.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
I think there is a privately owned via feratta up by Ogden here in UT. No idea if it's on private land or FS land.

And so far, all the mountain biking at all the resorts here is still free, as long as you ride up. They only charge for taking lifts up. There's a lot of folks that would be pretty pissed if that changed, but honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if things headed that way.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
Will there be the occasional cannon fire to clear out any possible rock fall?
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 13, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
No way in hell I'll pay to use a via ferrata.

But you may end up paying to climb on Forest service land in the future. Based on the precedents theyíre establishing, Jackson or Alta could start charging to access crags within their lease areas using a liability argument.

If thatís the case then the case for expanding their lease areas becomes that much stronger(charge more users with little to no investment by the resort, kind of like the ďcharge to skinĒ places).
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 13, 2018 - 02:09pm PT

Pay for the insurance policy that is required under the FS lease and youíll be set for privatizing your two bolt slab!

Well if somebody drops a rock/haul bag on you, or you suffer injuries because the bolts are too far apart, at least you will have somebody to sue.
;-)
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
But you may end up paying to climb on Forest service land in the future. Based on the precedents theyíre establishing, Jackson or Alta could start charging to access crags within their lease areas using a liability argument.

That just sucks. As taxpayers we have paid for public land; now they lease it out to privateers who now charge for us to be there? Triple taxation. I can understand ski resorts that have a lot of money invested in lifts and trail maintenance, but to add additional cost for using your own two feet and hands is reminiscent of the Boston Tea Party.
Mtbphoto

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, Ca
Jun 13, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
Mammoth Mountain does not allow you to mountain bike on their trails without a ticket...
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jun 14, 2018 - 06:37am PT
I think Tradman is onto something. Aren't skier days down most places? Given how damn expensive it is, I'm not surprised. If you live in the area and ski A LOT the yearly passes seem reasonable, but for the casual weekend? You gotta have some doubloons. What are day passes now, $140?

BAd
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 14, 2018 - 07:21am PT
Flat to down year over year for the better part of a decade now. Meanwhile human powered recreation continues to grow.

Itís a big issue here in the Wasatch bc the central Wasatch is pretty small so it really is a zero sum game. If you add a lift, you close that area to all free recreation most of the time. Hadnít thought of the climbing impacts until reading this. Canít wait until some bean counter at ASL reads this and tries to start charging to climb in Albion Basin.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jun 14, 2018 - 07:41am PT
Nah, the extra income is to paper over the declining skier days every year, the as#@&%es in Little Cottonwood are doing similar stuff.

Not declining. Breaking records the last two years.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865682999/Record-year-for-Utah-ski-industry.html

Numbers for this season should be coming out. Be interesting, given our poor snowpack, how the skier days stacks up.

Given no lack of the red snake on any given weekend, I personally haven't seen a decline. Not even this year. And, backcountry skiing has exploded. I've never seen the trailheads so packed with cars.

Rode lifts this season for a grand total of once in Utah (and once in Maine, oddly enough...) as a late start and that $10 at 3pm deal at Alta, on a very snowy day, was too much to pass up. Still got in 9 runs. Always interesting to chat with folks on the lifts. Nearly all from out-of-town. Here on a ski vacation.

Ogden's Via Ferrata is on private land, IIRC. Not sure its that popular. What is popular is our local sport climbing crags...

Get involved with policy and land managers on your local level!

Good times...
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jun 14, 2018 - 07:44am PT
Hadnít thought of the climbing impacts until reading this. Canít wait until some bean counter at ASL reads this and tries to start charging to climb in Albion Basin.

Not to climb, but, for access. You know they're going to charge to drive the summer road? And/or, ride a lift.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2018/04/23/alta-ski-areas-albion-basin-to-add-summer-lift-service-as-alpine-paradise-adjusts-to-growing-crowds/

Edit to add:

https://www.alta.com/summer
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jun 14, 2018 - 08:01am PT
As funding for National, State, and County Parks, as well as Federal Lands is reduced and the pressure for revenue sources increases, the leasing of private concessions and outright sell off of public land is already becoming rampant.

Mix in the new age of cronyism and pay-to play backdoor access and you'll look back and wish for those days of over officious Rangers being your worst problem.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 14, 2018 - 08:19am PT
@ JohnTP- I work for a Visitor's Center that has a "day use fee" (just $3/person) and I hear your argument a lot. "It's our public land- why do we have to pay to walk around?" .

Comments like that reflect total ignorance of the devastating degree of budget cuts that has been handed down from our current government. The cuts have been extreme. Our Tax dollars may have paid for the land but not for ongoing maintenance.

When we (the public) visit our public land, we have reasonable expectation that there will be clean bathrooms with TP and trashcans that aren't overflowing and FS employees to keep some semblance of order. Well- that's what "fees" and discretionary leasing cover.

Don't like privatization creeping into our federal land? In some cases I have observed that private companies do a better job managing than the under-funded federal employees. The only fix is to vote in an administration that isn't totally hostile towards the Park and Forest Service and get them back up to a realistic budget.

I think think the via-ferrata is pretty creative. There's only a handful in the US. None in CA.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Jun 14, 2018 - 11:05am PT
Not declining. Breaking records the last two years.
Right, locally, 2 yrs ago likely bc of Cali drought, not sure about last year.

Nationally itís been pretty flat for close to 2 decades.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Jun 14, 2018 - 11:38am PT
Maybe I'm getting old and soft but Via Ferratas look pretty fun to me and are likely a good use of cliffs at ski areas. Ski areas are already developed so why not use the land in the summer time too? I guess I'd feel differently if it some how might impact a real crag.
Macbeth

Social climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Jun 17, 2018 - 05:40pm PT
Mammoth Mountain Ski Resort operates its various winter and summer businesses under a USFS special use permit. Basically every product sold at Mammoth gives a percentage to the government.
In the case of the Via Ferrata this business will be one of only 2 USFS approved Via Ferrata in the USA, Jackson Hole being the other.
The Caldera overlook cliff was an unutilized climbing venue because of the difficulty of access unless you ride the gondola.
The project itself should provide summer employment for 15 -20 employees and be a pretty cool work detail. For paying guests this will be a safe and spectacular introduction to the mountain environment.
As a local employer this allows MMSA to retain skilled winter employees year round improving the guest experience and expanding our lift evacuation team which is a win for everyone.
This guided experience will be epic, six routes of varying difficulty and a 50 foot suspension bridge 100 feet off the deck should get the adrenalin of most going.
Opening in mid-August 2018
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 17, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
the Ferrata route happens to be right below the Trustme Rusty trundling range. Another multi-use venture between Alterra and the goons from the Inyo National Forest...
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jun 18, 2018 - 06:00am PT
I get your point Dingus- "paid" being a relative and not quite accurate term as you pointed out.. which makes the entitlement attitude even more idiotic. Regardless of how we got it- the feds have it now and the maintenance doesn't come free. I'm not advocating for mass privatization at all BTW.
Hoots

climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Jun 18, 2018 - 07:17am PT
There is now an uphill ski policy in place, news of it came out on May 5.
Limited to open hours, so no dawn patrols for locals with jobs, but it is a start.

Jackson Hole Mountain resort also has a via ferrata now on their land, and Squaq is developing theirs. I believe both are exclusive to paid customers.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 18, 2018 - 07:24am PT
Via Ferratas are similar to the amusement parks no one complains about paying to get into.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jun 18, 2018 - 07:33am PT
I prefer user costs to be paid by users, so I don't object to user fees like park passes, campground fees, lift tickets.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 18, 2018 - 08:42am PT
I don't object to user fees like park passes, campground fees, lift tickets.

you support the Adventure Pass? that fee was the proverbial camel's nose in the tent. You have to pay to day hike on public land, bad precedent.

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 18, 2018 - 11:07am PT
Our tax dollars did not pay for that land. That land was stolen from indigenous peoples, and then Spain, and then Mexico and then the U.S.; long ago.

The cry "we paid for that land" is dishonest, in the case at hand.

Come on DMT, we stole that land fair and square!
lalamur

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 5, 2018 - 08:41am PT
Just another reason to steer clear of this horrible resort.
ManMountain

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jul 5, 2018 - 09:10am PT
Jackson Hole has had a via ferrata operation for a while now. An all day experience is $485 for a party of two.

https://www.jacksonhole.com/via-ferrata.html
Jim Clipper

Gym climber
from the ground up
Jul 5, 2018 - 09:49am PT
Isn't this an old argument? What is the "subsidized" cost of grazing rights, mineral extraction, now entertainment? on public vs. private lands?

Also, Chouinard wrote about camping limits in National Parks, demonstration fees, etc. a while back. Can't find a link.

I'm sure I'm just preaching to the choir.

TFPU. It helps me appreciate the un-decorated, front line ambassadors. Stick you neck out and yell grazing fees? Still, in the desert... that might bring some strange groups together.

ArmandoWyo

climber
Wyoming
Jul 5, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
Iím guilty of seeing things through a single prism: does it hurt or help climbersí generally unrestricted rights to climb and use, place, and leave appropriate gear (bolts, pins, slings)? Next time folks are defending bolts in FS lands, be good to remind the the FS that it allows much more climbing hardware ó for money. (course, it does go through a permitting process, so not exactly same.)
Just donít think it helps climbers to be the ones attacking via ferratas. Iím not going to go out of my way to support them, but I think the better tactical position is the live and let live.
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Jul 5, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
I believe in the owners of something paying for it. In this case land that is owned by the public should be maintained with public funds, not user fees. Can you imagine what life would be like if there was no public land? We all benefit from it even if we don't "use"it.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
Cali
Jul 6, 2018 - 09:27am PT
I believe in the owners of something paying for it. In this case land that is owned by the public should be maintained with public funds, not user fees. Can you imagine what life would be like if there was no public land? We all benefit from it even if we don't "use"it.

Unfortunately this is a naive viewpoint since OUR government does NOT fund the parks or forest service at a level that lets it maintain its facilities. So they end up charging user fees to make up the difference. Even those are often taken by our government and spent on other things instead.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 6, 2018 - 09:39am PT
Even those are often taken by our government and spent on other things instead.

Not really true. The big parks are cash cows, Yos, Zion, Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. 80% of the fees collected remain in the park. the 20% that goes to the NPS does not come close to covering the operating expenses of the smaller parks. It is like public transportation, the fares will never cover the cost, so government needs to make up the difference for the public good.
merk-daddy

Trad climber
starvation bar, ca
Jul 24, 2018 - 11:30am PT
Intrawest continuing to destroy my former lovely mtn town. Schmucks.

Last year Jackson Hole proudly announced their via Ferrara. I think that is on USFS land.

https://www.jacksonhole.com/via-ferrata.html

When I was a patroller at Mammoth (20 years ago) I asked the USFS liaison what the rules were about skinning up for the public and he said as long as it didn't interfere with land lease activities (downhill skiing) it was allowed. When I told this to the management (who directed us to force Skinners off the MTN) they freaked out and asked why I thought it was okay to ask the USFS.

Schmucks, all around. Ruining a beautiful place in an effort to make a few bucks
bran_daid

Trad climber
santa monica, ca
Jul 24, 2018 - 12:02pm PT
wow, missed that mammoth allows uphilling this upcoming season. that's such great news! so stoked to get morning fitness laps in before shredding the piste during the day.



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 24, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
Merk daddy...I think they're called Alterra ( not to be confused with a Nissan ) not Intrawest....
BigB

Trad climber
Red Rock
Jul 25, 2018 - 08:49am PT
Not really true. The big parks are cash cows, Yos, Zion, Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. 80% of the fees collected remain in the park. the 20% that goes to the NPS does not come close to covering the operating expenses of the smaller parks. It is like public transportation, the fares will never cover the cost, so government needs to make up the difference for the public good.
u know whats crazy is ...the great smoky mtns park is bigger than Yellowstone/Yosemite together(per visitors) or even grand canyon/zion(which are #2-3 respectively) together.
JimT

climber
Munich
Jul 25, 2018 - 10:55am PT
Our tax dollars did not pay for that land. That land was stolen from indigenous peoples, and then Spain, and then Mexico and then the U.S.; long ago.
And the British, we havenīt forgotten!
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jul 25, 2018 - 01:51pm PT
Dunno. I might have to try that zip line! Looks rad.

BAd
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 25, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
And the British, we havenīt forgotten!

We stole it fair and square.
Andy Fielding

Trad climber
UK
Jul 26, 2018 - 11:34am PT
In Europe they have lots of via ferrataís but from my understanding they are public.
Not strictly true. Some VF you have to pay to go on. A lot are, however, funded by local town councils to encourage the general public to use them thus bringing with them cash to spend in the local community. Win win situation.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 26, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
In Washington State landowners are exempt from liability for public recreational use of their property, but only if they don't charge for it. Climbing is specifically included thanks to a rider drafted by Andy Fitz and the access fund. That means when I allow folks to climb on the crag in my front yard its both free and I am not liable.
Mtbphoto

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, Ca
Aug 7, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
https://www.mammothmountain.com/summer/things-to-do/adventure-center/via-ferrata

Now updated with pricing and penal code violation numbers for going without a guide
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 7, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
A guide for a via ferrata? You mean itís only for use by retards?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 7, 2018 - 03:57pm PT
So is access to the FS owned ski area restricted to pass holders.

A couple of years ago we were doing some self-arrest practice near Mt. Waterman. Some guy ran us off. And the mountain was closed!
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 7, 2018 - 04:32pm PT
I saw the posters for this last weekend (through the smoke and blowing pumice). Expensive. $359 for two people, an additional $99 per person up to four people max, and an additional guide (at $359) if anyone is 10 or 11. For my family of 5 that would be $916 before tax. Looks fun but I think I'd rather save the coin and go do some in the Dolomites. There you'd get some good speck, Alto Adige wine and some WWI emplacements in the mix.
Ŗ ő ō T « H

Boulder climber
ne'erĖdoĖwell
Aug 7, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
Zip line construction progress (control webcam low and zoomed out)
https://www.mammothmountain.com/cams/summit-cam
jeff constine

Trad climber
Ao Namao
Aug 8, 2018 - 07:56am PT
Skippy sounds about your speed, now you will have climbing content to add here. "My big ladder climb" ;)
GuapoVino

climber
Nov 14, 2018 - 12:07am PT
Ski area leases with the Forest Service are not all the same. The uphill skiing crowd deals with this a lot. Some ski areas have a lease that prevents them from limiting public access at any time, unless it's in an area where dangerous operations are taking place (snow making, winch operations, etc). They can't prevent people from hiking or skiing uphill. Santa Fe Ski Area is free access year round, but you still have to buy a ticket to get on the lift.

Another ski area I'm familiar with can restrict access during their "winter season" but only has three days after the last official ski day that they can restrict access. On the fourth day they can no longer prevent people from hiking up the ski runs and skiing down, or doing whatever the public wants to do.

You'd have to read the lease and see what it gives Mammoth the right to do. It's not uncommon for ski areas to try to bluff more authority than they legally are able to do according to their lease. One ski area I know of tried that and, after people complained to the USFS, they had to back down and and allow access.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Nov 14, 2018 - 07:38am PT
Great info Guapo, any tips on finding the text for these leases? Weíve got a couple entities here that Iíd like to read up on.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Nov 14, 2018 - 10:30am PT
If what you are looking for isn't online you can call the USFS district or forest office. Failing that just send them a FOIA (freedom of information act) request asking for the lease or whatever. Info on access might also be included in the NEPA documents.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Nov 14, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
Wow. That's friggin' expensive. I'll go to Pine Creek instead. New guide book out, dontcha know.

BAd
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