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KRS-Grun
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 12, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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Mammoth Mountain is currently installing a via ferrata with approval from the Forest Service. They claim it is private property despite being installed on public land. https://www.mammothmountain.com/summer/things-to-do/adventure-center/new-for-2018
This seems strange to me as I can’t bolt a route and then declare my bolts are my property and keep people off my routes.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jun 12, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
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maybe if you entered into a lease with the forest service in which you pay them for the exclusive right to offer the use of your bolts then you could.
I think it's easier in this situation to just pretend the bolts and cables are lifts. same thing really
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:06am PT
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Alterra Mountain Company -- Gag me with a spoon.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 13, 2018 - 06:45am PT
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There is a zipline coming soon. Gondola up, zipline down. Where is the via ferrata going to be.
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KRS-Grun
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2018 - 07:14am PT
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Just seems like a weird grey area they will own the route. In Europe they have lots of via ferrata’s but from my understanding they are public. This case isn’t as bad a the one installed in Monterrey, Mexico where they bolted over a 1,000 foot classic 5.9 arete. Down there the company that received the government money to install it tries to lay claim to it but the public still uses it.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:23am PT
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The USFS can permit public use on federal land if they want to. It's not really comparable to an individual bolting a route on their own.
Any idea where the via ferratta is being installed? I dunno- it looks like fun to me. I'd give it a run.
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Mtbphoto
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, Ca
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:30am PT
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I heard about the Via Ferrata via a billboard in Bishop the other day. I would imagine it would have to be at "Top of the World" right up by the gondola. I always assumed that area has a ton of loose rock.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:30am PT
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Pay for the insurance policy that is required under the FS lease and you’ll be set for privatizing your two bolt slab! ;)
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KRS-Grun
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2018 - 07:33am PT
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I’m not saying it’s the same as a person putting in bolts personally but there is clearly a similarity as they are putting bolts in rock as well as all the other hardware. My opinion is only that because it is on USFS land one should be allowed to hike up to it and climb it on their own. This is the first time USFS ha granted permission for this so it’s a pretty unique scenario.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:40am PT
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You pay for the right to ride the chairlift and ski, how is this different?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:40am PT
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The Forest Circus sells our trees to be turned into bum wipe so how is this different?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:46am PT
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Ski resorts have long been able to lease land from the FS and charge for activities on that land. And set their own rules(see Alta and no snowboards).
Not sure how this is any different.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jun 13, 2018 - 08:01am PT
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Yeah-^^^ its really no different. The USFS is not a conservation organization. They advocate public use of federal lands and can discriminate at will. There was another thread about allowing private helicopter companies exclusive rights to charge for heli-skiing-. They also lease land for grazing, mining and logging. It's all in the same basket.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jun 13, 2018 - 08:32am PT
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I’ve climbed at a private crag where you have to pay to play. Crawdad Canyon. Really not that great, but for ten bucks on the way out of town it was an interesting diversion.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jun 13, 2018 - 08:35am PT
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The FS can't stop you from gaining access and climbing YOUR rock. But they can stop you from using THEIR bolts and cables. Just like you can access the ski resort, but you can't ride the lifts (some areas even prevent you from accessing FS land under lease and this is a legal gray area).
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 13, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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So is access to the FS owned ski area restricted to pass holders. Can you skin up and ski down?
You need a pass for the xc track, I assume the same rule applies at the mountain
So the same would apply to the rock
The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices. Wishful thinking
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 13, 2018 - 11:51am PT
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Wish you could ski uphill some at Mammoth Mountain officially!
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bearbnz
Trad climber
East Side, California
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Jun 13, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
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Gumby is correct, the primary difference is the special use permit that MMSA has from the USFS that provides for their exclusive use of public lands. MMSA pays property taxes based on this exclusive use (known as a possessory interest). The land swap is nearing the final stages, and the Main Lodge area will soon be owned in fee by MMSA (Alterra). MMSA has had a habit of 'acquiring' other public assets that are not within their special use permit area, such as sections of the Uptown and Downturn trail.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 13, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
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Thanks bear. Gumby implied that access was open, you seem to being saying otherwise
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bearbnz
Trad climber
East Side, California
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Jun 13, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
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Unfortunately, due to the exclusivity of their permit, they can deny access to the permitted areas, and they do. I'm not sure exactly how they have arranged it, as other possessory interest owners, such as USFS summer cabins, cannot deny access to the property, only to the cabin.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
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The FS can't stop you from gaining access and climbing YOUR rock. But they can stop you from using THEIR bolts and cables. Just like you can access the ski resort, but you can't ride the lifts (some areas even prevent you from accessing FS land under lease and this is a legal gray area).
Other's probably know better but I remember when they started running the lift for mountain biking, someone told me that they can't stop you from riding the trails but they can deny access to the lifts without proper payment.
For years I would ride up the trails. No one ever questioned my lack of a pass. I even would stop and talk with people working on the trails.
To play it safe I always carried some cash and had a lame excuse ready that I was riding to the ticket area. LOL
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
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The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices.
ski resorts are in the business of making money. they see the writing on the wall because of climate change. They are trying to add adventure sports to jeep them in business.
In the future, ski resorts may not have skiing.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:33pm PT
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The extra income from the summer might help moderate lift ticket prices.
Nah, the extra income is to paper over the declining skier days every year, the as#@&%es in Little Cottonwood are doing similar stuff.
A sad end to my dream of shorter seasons and reduced ticket sales getting rid of the leaches and leaving the land to those of us who actually want to ski(as opposed to sitting on chairs).
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
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They Suck.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
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In Europe they have lots of via ferrata’s but from my understanding they are public.
No way in hell I'll pay to use a via ferrata. I'd contribute to support establishment of them on public land for open use.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
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I think there is a privately owned via feratta up by Ogden here in UT. No idea if it's on private land or FS land.
And so far, all the mountain biking at all the resorts here is still free, as long as you ride up. They only charge for taking lifts up. There's a lot of folks that would be pretty pissed if that changed, but honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if things headed that way.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
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Will there be the occasional cannon fire to clear out any possible rock fall?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 13, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
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No way in hell I'll pay to use a via ferrata.
But you may end up paying to climb on Forest service land in the future. Based on the precedents they’re establishing, Jackson or Alta could start charging to access crags within their lease areas using a liability argument.
If that’s the case then the case for expanding their lease areas becomes that much stronger(charge more users with little to no investment by the resort, kind of like the “charge to skin” places).
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 13, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
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Pay for the insurance policy that is required under the FS lease and you’ll be set for privatizing your two bolt slab!
Well if somebody drops a rock/haul bag on you, or you suffer injuries because the bolts are too far apart, at least you will have somebody to sue.
;-)
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 13, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
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But you may end up paying to climb on Forest service land in the future. Based on the precedents they’re establishing, Jackson or Alta could start charging to access crags within their lease areas using a liability argument.
That just sucks. As taxpayers we have paid for public land; now they lease it out to privateers who now charge for us to be there? Triple taxation. I can understand ski resorts that have a lot of money invested in lifts and trail maintenance, but to add additional cost for using your own two feet and hands is reminiscent of the Boston Tea Party.
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Mtbphoto
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, Ca
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Jun 13, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
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Mammoth Mountain does not allow you to mountain bike on their trails without a ticket...
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jun 14, 2018 - 06:37am PT
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I think Tradman is onto something. Aren't skier days down most places? Given how damn expensive it is, I'm not surprised. If you live in the area and ski A LOT the yearly passes seem reasonable, but for the casual weekend? You gotta have some doubloons. What are day passes now, $140?
BAd
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 14, 2018 - 07:21am PT
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Flat to down year over year for the better part of a decade now. Meanwhile human powered recreation continues to grow.
It’s a big issue here in the Wasatch bc the central Wasatch is pretty small so it really is a zero sum game. If you add a lift, you close that area to all free recreation most of the time. Hadn’t thought of the climbing impacts until reading this. Can’t wait until some bean counter at ASL reads this and tries to start charging to climb in Albion Basin.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jun 14, 2018 - 07:41am PT
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Nah, the extra income is to paper over the declining skier days every year, the as#@&%es in Little Cottonwood are doing similar stuff.
Not declining. Breaking records the last two years.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865682999/Record-year-for-Utah-ski-industry.html
Numbers for this season should be coming out. Be interesting, given our poor snowpack, how the skier days stacks up.
Given no lack of the red snake on any given weekend, I personally haven't seen a decline. Not even this year. And, backcountry skiing has exploded. I've never seen the trailheads so packed with cars.
Rode lifts this season for a grand total of once in Utah (and once in Maine, oddly enough...) as a late start and that $10 at 3pm deal at Alta, on a very snowy day, was too much to pass up. Still got in 9 runs. Always interesting to chat with folks on the lifts. Nearly all from out-of-town. Here on a ski vacation.
Ogden's Via Ferrata is on private land, IIRC. Not sure its that popular. What is popular is our local sport climbing crags...
Get involved with policy and land managers on your local level!
Good times...
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 14, 2018 - 08:01am PT
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As funding for National, State, and County Parks, as well as Federal Lands is reduced and the pressure for revenue sources increases, the leasing of private concessions and outright sell off of public land is already becoming rampant.
Mix in the new age of cronyism and pay-to play backdoor access and you'll look back and wish for those days of over officious Rangers being your worst problem.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jun 14, 2018 - 08:19am PT
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@ JohnTP- I work for a Visitor's Center that has a "day use fee" (just $3/person) and I hear your argument a lot. "It's our public land- why do we have to pay to walk around?" .
Comments like that reflect total ignorance of the devastating degree of budget cuts that has been handed down from our current government. The cuts have been extreme. Our Tax dollars may have paid for the land but not for ongoing maintenance.
When we (the public) visit our public land, we have reasonable expectation that there will be clean bathrooms with TP and trashcans that aren't overflowing and FS employees to keep some semblance of order. Well- that's what "fees" and discretionary leasing cover.
Don't like privatization creeping into our federal land? In some cases I have observed that private companies do a better job managing than the under-funded federal employees. The only fix is to vote in an administration that isn't totally hostile towards the Park and Forest Service and get them back up to a realistic budget.
I think think the via-ferrata is pretty creative. There's only a handful in the US. None in CA.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 14, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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Not declining. Breaking records the last two years. Right, locally, 2 yrs ago likely bc of Cali drought, not sure about last year.
Nationally it’s been pretty flat for close to 2 decades.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Jun 14, 2018 - 11:38am PT
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Maybe I'm getting old and soft but Via Ferratas look pretty fun to me and are likely a good use of cliffs at ski areas. Ski areas are already developed so why not use the land in the summer time too? I guess I'd feel differently if it some how might impact a real crag.
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Macbeth
Social climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jun 17, 2018 - 05:40pm PT
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Mammoth Mountain Ski Resort operates its various winter and summer businesses under a USFS special use permit. Basically every product sold at Mammoth gives a percentage to the government.
In the case of the Via Ferrata this business will be one of only 2 USFS approved Via Ferrata in the USA, Jackson Hole being the other.
The Caldera overlook cliff was an unutilized climbing venue because of the difficulty of access unless you ride the gondola.
The project itself should provide summer employment for 15 -20 employees and be a pretty cool work detail. For paying guests this will be a safe and spectacular introduction to the mountain environment.
As a local employer this allows MMSA to retain skilled winter employees year round improving the guest experience and expanding our lift evacuation team which is a win for everyone.
This guided experience will be epic, six routes of varying difficulty and a 50 foot suspension bridge 100 feet off the deck should get the adrenalin of most going.
Opening in mid-August 2018
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jun 17, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
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the Ferrata route happens to be right below the Trustme Rusty trundling range. Another multi-use venture between Alterra and the goons from the Inyo National Forest...
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jun 18, 2018 - 06:00am PT
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I get your point Dingus- "paid" being a relative and not quite accurate term as you pointed out.. which makes the entitlement attitude even more idiotic. Regardless of how we got it- the feds have it now and the maintenance doesn't come free. I'm not advocating for mass privatization at all BTW.
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Hoots
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jun 18, 2018 - 07:17am PT
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There is now an uphill ski policy in place, news of it came out on May 5.
Limited to open hours, so no dawn patrols for locals with jobs, but it is a start.
Jackson Hole Mountain resort also has a via ferrata now on their land, and Squaq is developing theirs. I believe both are exclusive to paid customers.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 18, 2018 - 07:24am PT
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Via Ferratas are similar to the amusement parks no one complains about paying to get into.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 18, 2018 - 07:33am PT
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I prefer user costs to be paid by users, so I don't object to user fees like park passes, campground fees, lift tickets.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 18, 2018 - 08:42am PT
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I don't object to user fees like park passes, campground fees, lift tickets.
you support the Adventure Pass? that fee was the proverbial camel's nose in the tent. You have to pay to day hike on public land, bad precedent.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 18, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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Our tax dollars did not pay for that land. That land was stolen from indigenous peoples, and then Spain, and then Mexico and then the U.S.; long ago.
The cry "we paid for that land" is dishonest, in the case at hand.
Come on DMT, we stole that land fair and square!
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lalamur
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Just another reason to steer clear of this horrible resort.
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Jim Clipper
Gym climber
from the ground up
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Isn't this an old argument? What is the "subsidized" cost of grazing rights, mineral extraction, now entertainment? on public vs. private lands?
Also, Chouinard wrote about camping limits in National Parks, demonstration fees, etc. a while back. Can't find a link.
I'm sure I'm just preaching to the choir.
TFPU. It helps me appreciate the un-decorated, front line ambassadors. Stick you neck out and yell grazing fees? Still, in the desert... that might bring some strange groups together.
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ArmandoWyo
climber
Wyoming
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I’m guilty of seeing things through a single prism: does it hurt or help climbers’ generally unrestricted rights to climb and use, place, and leave appropriate gear (bolts, pins, slings)? Next time folks are defending bolts in FS lands, be good to remind the the FS that it allows much more climbing hardware — for money. (course, it does go through a permitting process, so not exactly same.)
Just don’t think it helps climbers to be the ones attacking via ferratas. I’m not going to go out of my way to support them, but I think the better tactical position is the live and let live.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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I believe in the owners of something paying for it. In this case land that is owned by the public should be maintained with public funds, not user fees. Can you imagine what life would be like if there was no public land? We all benefit from it even if we don't "use"it.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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I believe in the owners of something paying for it. In this case land that is owned by the public should be maintained with public funds, not user fees. Can you imagine what life would be like if there was no public land? We all benefit from it even if we don't "use"it.
Unfortunately this is a naive viewpoint since OUR government does NOT fund the parks or forest service at a level that lets it maintain its facilities. So they end up charging user fees to make up the difference. Even those are often taken by our government and spent on other things instead.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Even those are often taken by our government and spent on other things instead.
Not really true. The big parks are cash cows, Yos, Zion, Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. 80% of the fees collected remain in the park. the 20% that goes to the NPS does not come close to covering the operating expenses of the smaller parks. It is like public transportation, the fares will never cover the cost, so government needs to make up the difference for the public good.
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merk-daddy
Trad climber
starvation bar, ca
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Jul 24, 2018 - 11:30am PT
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Intrawest continuing to destroy my former lovely mtn town. Schmucks.
Last year Jackson Hole proudly announced their via Ferrara. I think that is on USFS land.
https://www.jacksonhole.com/via-ferrata.html
When I was a patroller at Mammoth (20 years ago) I asked the USFS liaison what the rules were about skinning up for the public and he said as long as it didn't interfere with land lease activities (downhill skiing) it was allowed. When I told this to the management (who directed us to force Skinners off the MTN) they freaked out and asked why I thought it was okay to ask the USFS.
Schmucks, all around. Ruining a beautiful place in an effort to make a few bucks
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bran_daid
Trad climber
santa monica, ca
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Jul 24, 2018 - 12:02pm PT
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wow, missed that mammoth allows uphilling this upcoming season. that's such great news! so stoked to get morning fitness laps in before shredding the piste during the day.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 24, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
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Merk daddy...I think they're called Alterra ( not to be confused with a Nissan ) not Intrawest....
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Jul 25, 2018 - 08:49am PT
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Not really true. The big parks are cash cows, Yos, Zion, Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. 80% of the fees collected remain in the park. the 20% that goes to the NPS does not come close to covering the operating expenses of the smaller parks. It is like public transportation, the fares will never cover the cost, so government needs to make up the difference for the public good. u know whats crazy is ...the great smoky mtns park is bigger than Yellowstone/Yosemite together(per visitors) or even grand canyon/zion(which are #2-3 respectively) together.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jul 25, 2018 - 10:55am PT
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Our tax dollars did not pay for that land. That land was stolen from indigenous peoples, and then Spain, and then Mexico and then the U.S.; long ago.
And the British, we haven´t forgotten!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 25, 2018 - 01:51pm PT
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Dunno. I might have to try that zip line! Looks rad.
BAd
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jul 25, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
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And the British, we haven´t forgotten!
We stole it fair and square.
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Andy Fielding
Trad climber
UK
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Jul 26, 2018 - 11:34am PT
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In Europe they have lots of via ferrata’s but from my understanding they are public. Not strictly true. Some VF you have to pay to go on. A lot are, however, funded by local town councils to encourage the general public to use them thus bringing with them cash to spend in the local community. Win win situation.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jul 26, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
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In Washington State landowners are exempt from liability for public recreational use of their property, but only if they don't charge for it. Climbing is specifically included thanks to a rider drafted by Andy Fitz and the access fund. That means when I allow folks to climb on the crag in my front yard its both free and I am not liable.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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A guide for a via ferrata? You mean it’s only for use by retards?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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So is access to the FS owned ski area restricted to pass holders.
A couple of years ago we were doing some self-arrest practice near Mt. Waterman. Some guy ran us off. And the mountain was closed!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I saw the posters for this last weekend (through the smoke and blowing pumice). Expensive. $359 for two people, an additional $99 per person up to four people max, and an additional guide (at $359) if anyone is 10 or 11. For my family of 5 that would be $916 before tax. Looks fun but I think I'd rather save the coin and go do some in the Dolomites. There you'd get some good speck, Alto Adige wine and some WWI emplacements in the mix.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Skippy sounds about your speed, now you will have climbing content to add here. "My big ladder climb" ;)
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GuapoVino
climber
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Nov 14, 2018 - 12:07am PT
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Ski area leases with the Forest Service are not all the same. The uphill skiing crowd deals with this a lot. Some ski areas have a lease that prevents them from limiting public access at any time, unless it's in an area where dangerous operations are taking place (snow making, winch operations, etc). They can't prevent people from hiking or skiing uphill. Santa Fe Ski Area is free access year round, but you still have to buy a ticket to get on the lift.
Another ski area I'm familiar with can restrict access during their "winter season" but only has three days after the last official ski day that they can restrict access. On the fourth day they can no longer prevent people from hiking up the ski runs and skiing down, or doing whatever the public wants to do.
You'd have to read the lease and see what it gives Mammoth the right to do. It's not uncommon for ski areas to try to bluff more authority than they legally are able to do according to their lease. One ski area I know of tried that and, after people complained to the USFS, they had to back down and and allow access.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Nov 14, 2018 - 07:38am PT
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Great info Guapo, any tips on finding the text for these leases? We’ve got a couple entities here that I’d like to read up on.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Nov 14, 2018 - 10:30am PT
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If what you are looking for isn't online you can call the USFS district or forest office. Failing that just send them a FOIA (freedom of information act) request asking for the lease or whatever. Info on access might also be included in the NEPA documents.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 14, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
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Wow. That's friggin' expensive. I'll go to Pine Creek instead. New guide book out, dontcha know.
BAd
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| Messages 1 - 74 of total 74 in this topic |
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