Does Califonia need 3 times as many Senators?

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Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 15, 2018 - 11:57am PT
Water rights are a property interest, however that property interest does not include the actual water.

In 1928, the California Constitution was amended making the exercise of all water rights (both surface and groundwater) subject to a paramount limitation of reasonable and beneficial use. This amendment did not affect priorities as among different users and classes of users, but simply put a cap on the right of any user to that amount of water which
can be applied to reasonable, beneficial use.

http://aic.ucdavis.edu/events/outlook05/Sawyer_primer.pdf

Regardless of the nature of the water right in question, two very important principles will always apply. First, under the California Constitution, water must be put to reasonable and beneficial use. No water right grants any party the right to waste or make an reasonable use of water, and any water right can be curtailed or revoked if it is determined that the holder of that right has engaged in a wasteful or unreasonable use of water.

Second, no water user in the State "owns" any water. Instead, a water right grants the holder thereof only the right to use water (called a "usufructuary right"). The owner of "legal title" to all water is the State in its capacity as a trustee for the benefit of the public. The so-called "public trust doctrine" requires the State, as a trustee, to manage its public trust resources (including water) so as to derive the maximum benefit for its citizenry. The benefits to be considered and balanced include economic, recreational, aesthetic and environmental; if at any time the trustee determines that a use of water other than the then current use would better serve the public trust, the State has the power and the obligation to reallocate that water in accordance with the public's interest. Even if the water at issue has been put to beneficial use (and relied upon) for decades, it can be taken from one user in favor of another need or use. The public trust doctrine therefore means that no water rights in California are truly "vested" in the traditional sense of property rights

The biggest cash crop in CA is pot. It uses as much water as almonds.
ManMountain

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 15, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
California, the most populous state in the United States and third largest in area after Alaska and Texas, has been the subject of more than 220 proposals to divide it into multiple states since its admission to the United States in 1850, including at least 27 significant proposals in the first 150 years of statehood.

Rest assured this is much ado about nothing.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 15, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
Don't buy almonds or grapes or anything made from them, or be part of the problem and not the solution.

As soon as Trump gets this trade war thingy up and running with China, the EU, and Canada/Mexico, California's almond and grape exports will collapse leaving plenty for us native consumers.

Thanks Trump!
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 16, 2018 - 03:14pm PT
agriculture can be seen as exporting a portion of your water supply...

Absolutely. And I would rather export a portion of CA's water supply by growing fruits and vegetables than evapotranspirate CA's water by growing lawns and golf courses.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 16, 2018 - 03:22pm PT
Add home swimming pools. How often do you see people in them? People build them in warm, sunny climates where evaporation is high.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 16, 2018 - 04:53pm PT
Installing a swimming pool is one of the most environmentally destructive things a homeowner can do. 20% of the energy used in California goes to water uses, pumping, filtering etc. That is a lot of energy, mostly fossil fuels

Concrete has a high carbon footprint. Lots of concrete in a pool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_concrete

Carbon dioxide emissions and climate change
The concrete industry is one of two largest producers of carbon dioxide (CO2), creating up to 5% of worldwide man-made emissions of this gas, of which 50% is from the chemical process and 40% from burning fuel.[1] The carbon dioxide CO2 produced for the manufacture of structural concrete (using ~14% cement) is estimated at 410 kg/m3 (~180 kg/tonne @ density of 2.3 g/cm3) (reduced to 290 kg/m3 with 30% fly ash replacement of cement).[3] The CO2 emission from the concrete production is directly proportional to the cement content used in the concrete mix; 900 kg of CO2 are emitted for the fabrication of every ton of cement, accounting for 88% of the emissions associated with the average concrete mix.[4][5] Cement manufacture contributes greenhouse gases both directly through the production of carbon dioxide when calcium carbonate is thermally decomposed, producing lime and carbon dioxide,[6] and also through the use of energy, particularly from the combustion of fossil fuels.

One area of the concrete life cycle worth noting is the fact that concrete has a very low embodied energy relative to the quantity that is used. This is primarily the result of the fact that the materials used in concrete construction, such as aggregates, pozzolans, and water, are relatively plentiful and can often be drawn from local sources.[7] This means that transportation only accounts for 7% of the embodied energy of concrete, while the cement production accounts for 70%. With a total embodied energy of 1.69 GJ/tonne concrete is lower than any other building material besides wood. It is worth noting that this value is based on mix proportions for concrete of no more than 20% fly ash. It is estimated that one percent replacement of cement with fly ash represents a .7% reduction in energy consumption. With some proposed mixes containing as much as 80% fly ash, this would represent a considerable energy savings.[5]
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Jun 16, 2018 - 08:50pm PT
Well that entirely depends on which water you're talking about. Water rights are extremely complicated but at the end of the day the water rights holders own the water (represented by their rights to it).

In that respect the state does not own the water and then determine how to dole it out. It's the exact opposite in fact, the state tries mightily to corral unruly water rights holders into some semblance of a state water policy... mostly unsuccessfully.

The state does own some of the conveyance however, state water project canals, for example. That is but a piece of the whole puzzle however.

Splitting the state into three wouldn't alter the water rights situation one iota as far as I can tell. I'm open to other opinions though! :)

DMT, I think what my friend is saying is that the new state would refuse to sell the water rights. Especially if that water was destined for the big city liberals.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 16, 2018 - 09:03pm PT
Since the state has the final say on how the water is ultimately distributed, dividing the state into 3 sovereign bodies would be a nightmare. If you think water is politicized now, imagine it x3. Same for ever other agency in the state.
johntp

Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
Jun 16, 2018 - 11:00pm PT
ohn

I looked at a couple of maps that show house seats as solid Democrats or Republicans or leaning D/R. And compared it to the three way split. It looks decidedly Republican.

August, I really didn't know that. Thanks. For what it's worth I tend towards fiscal conservatism and social liberty. Walking a fine line with this point of perspective. I pretty much stay out of politics as it seems like a train wreck that no one can stop. Gears are greased, monetary fires are fully stoked.

I have no control over the political wheel so just figure it is a st00pid fact of life that morons are deciding our fate.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jun 17, 2018 - 07:29am PT
Again, gerrymandering. An attempt by the right to decapitate the left!
If this were to happen it would be Trumps all the way down. Would we be spending yen, or rubles?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 17, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
Since the state has the final say on how the water is ultimately distributed, dividing the state into 3 sovereign bodies would be a nightmare. If you think water is politicized now, imagine it x3. Same for ever other agency in the state.

Getting a divorce would be a nightmare for everyone but lawyers. Besides water rights CA has lots of assets, lots of liabilities/pension obligations, and lots of other things that would have to divvied up.

Figuring out water rights would be like trying to decide who gets the family pets. Not trivial but only one issue among, many, many issues.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 17, 2018 - 12:03pm PT
If this were to happen it would be Trumps all the way down. Would we be spending yen, or rubles?

.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 17, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
Haha, yeah, carving up the pensions would be a real trick. The whole scheme is a anotherright wing Jerry mandering project.
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